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szilagyi at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 12:07 PM

Post #1 of 43 (772 views)
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identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser

Hi,

What is the official policy and requirements for OTRS and Checkuser
volunteers, who both have access to private information, to disclose
themselves to the WMF? What are they required to reveal to the Foundation,
and how is that information vetted and verified? How does this line up with
the WMF's board policy on private material?

There was a comment from someone who helped draft original OTRS policy, and
who was an administrator and Arbitration Committee member on the English
Wikipedia, that some individuals for some reason do not have to disclose
themselves, which sounded odd, and another person, a current Board
candidate, stated that his entire disclosure to the WMF consisted of a Gmail
stating his name and age. That seems... rather concerning on the former, and
rather thin on the latter.

Thanks!

- Joe
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cbass at wikimedia

Jun 25, 2008, 12:12 PM

Post #2 of 43 (748 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

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Joe Szilagyi wrote:
| Hi,
|
| What is the official policy and requirements for OTRS and Checkuser
| volunteers, who both have access to private information, to disclose
| themselves to the WMF?

This is incorrect. Most OTRS volunteers do not have access to private
information; and those that do have identified.

- --
Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator

Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running! Support the Wikimedia
Foundation today: http://donate.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
Phone: 415.839.6885
Fax: 415.882.0495

E-Mail: cary[at]wikimedia.org
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szilagyi at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 12:15 PM

Post #3 of 43 (752 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Cary Bass <cbass[at]wikimedia.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Joe Szilagyi wrote:
> | Hi,
> |
> | What is the official policy and requirements for OTRS and Checkuser
> | volunteers, who both have access to private information, to disclose
> | themselves to the WMF?
>
> This is incorrect. Most OTRS volunteers do not have access to private
> information; and those that do have identified.
>
> - --
> Cary Bass
> Volunteer Coordinator

Thanks for the clarification. Are there any users with private access that
have not identified as was mentioned by Kelly? If so, why would anyone get
such an exemption, and who would approve that? What level of traceable
real-world identification is required?

Joe
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gmaxwell at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 12:19 PM

Post #4 of 43 (748 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Joe Szilagyi <szilagyi[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What is the official policy and requirements for OTRS and Checkuser
> volunteers, who both have access to private information, to disclose
> themselves to the WMF? What are they required to reveal to the Foundation,
> and how is that information vetted and verified? How does this line up with
> the WMF's board policy on private material?

I emailed a copy of my drivers license (or was it passport? I forget).
.. .. and I've also met almost all of the foundation staff and board
so if there was anyone qualified for waving based on "oh we know him"
I think I'd be fairly high on the list, so I'm not personally aware of
it being waved.

> There was a comment from someone who helped draft original OTRS policy, and
> who was an administrator and Arbitration Committee member on the English
> Wikipedia, that some individuals for some reason do not have to disclose
> themselves, which sounded odd, and another person,

My belief is that the requirements are reduced for people that only
have access to the 'boring' OTRS queues, the ones where private
information is only disclosed infrequently and incidentally (like
anything else on Wikipedia). I'm sure Cary will reply with more
details.

> a current Board
> candidate, stated that his entire disclosure to the WMF consisted of a Gmail
> stating his name and age. That seems... rather concerning on the former, and
> rather thin on the latter.

I would think that only the *winner* really needs to be identified in
any robust way. Prior to being selected as a winner the only real
need to ask for ID is to weed out anyone unwilling to provide it.

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cbrown1023.ml at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 12:21 PM

Post #5 of 43 (745 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Joe Szilagyi <szilagyi[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. Are there any users with private access that
> have not identified as was mentioned by Kelly? If so, why would anyone get
> such an exemption, and who would approve that? What level of traceable
> real-world identification is required?
>

If there were, they would probably be removed as soon as possible.
However, it is difficult to answer questions about a certain situation
when we have no idea who you are talking about.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

---
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cbass at wikimedia

Jun 25, 2008, 12:21 PM

Post #6 of 43 (751 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

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Joe Szilagyi wrote:
| On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Cary Bass <cbass[at]wikimedia.org> wrote:
|
|> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|> Hash: SHA1
|>
|> Joe Szilagyi wrote:
|> | Hi,
|> |
|> | What is the official policy and requirements for OTRS and Checkuser
|> | volunteers, who both have access to private information, to disclose
|> | themselves to the WMF?
|>
|> This is incorrect. Most OTRS volunteers do not have access to private
|> information; and those that do have identified.
|>
|> - --
|> Cary Bass
|> Volunteer Coordinator
|
|
|
| Thanks for the clarification. Are there any users with private access that
| have not identified as was mentioned by Kelly? If so, why would anyone get
| such an exemption, and who would approve that? What level of traceable
| real-world identification is required?

I don't see any email from anyone named Kelly, so I don't know what
you're referring to. There's no exemptions to anyone with access to
private data; everyone has identified, and if you believe someone has
not, please let me know (privately) and we'll work on fixing that.

- --
Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator
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szilagyi at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 12:25 PM

Post #7 of 43 (743 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

My reason for asking was from a comment left by Kelly Martin on the
Wikipedia Review, where she said, "And Cary routinely makes exceptions to
the "must identify to the Foundation" policy, too," which seemed odd.

It was such an outrageous comment that I wanted to ask what is checked.
Cary, thank you for answering. Is what Greg mentioned he did what happens to
all people with private access--do they have to provide a passport, state
ID, something like that?

- Joe
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swatjester at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 12:36 PM

Post #8 of 43 (751 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

With regard to the candidate, it was, if I understand correctly, regarding
sarcasticidealist. I think this is just a miscommunication between people
making the assumption that basic level OTRS access volunteers have access to
personal information.

-Dan

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Joe Szilagyi <szilagyi[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> My reason for asking was from a comment left by Kelly Martin on the
> Wikipedia Review, where she said, "And Cary routinely makes exceptions to
> the "must identify to the Foundation" policy, too," which seemed odd.
>
> It was such an outrageous comment that I wanted to ask what is checked.
> Cary, thank you for answering. Is what Greg mentioned he did what happens
> to
> all people with private access--do they have to provide a passport, state
> ID, something like that?
>
> - Joe
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
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gmaxwell at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 12:37 PM

Post #9 of 43 (750 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Joe Szilagyi <szilagyi[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> My reason for asking was from a comment left by Kelly Martin on the
> Wikipedia Review, where she said, "And Cary routinely makes exceptions to
> the "must identify to the Foundation" policy, too," which seemed odd.

Ah.

I went and found the thread in question:

Kelly Martin wrote:
> guy wrote
>> You have to be 18 to be a checkuser or an ArbCom member (though all you have to
>> do is send a photo of your passport, which for all anyone knows is your father's or your
>> brother's). You have to be 16 to be an OTRS volunteer, because a certain level of
>> maturity and life experience is needed (you can't make this up).
>And Cary routinely makes exceptions to the "must identify to the Foundation" policy, too.
>I thought OTRS volunteers were subject to the must identify and be an adult. I certainly >intended them to be when I wrote that policy.

It was news to me somewhat recently that some OTRS users weren't
identified (I discovered this when chatting with a new one). I asked
around a bit and was told that the boring queues weren't deemed
private info ... which made sense to me so I inquired no further.

Kelly's comment on Cary waving things sounds perhaps a bit cynical. ;)

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mgodwin at wikimedia

Jun 25, 2008, 12:45 PM

Post #10 of 43 (752 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Joe writes:

> My reason for asking was from a comment left by Kelly Martin on the
> Wikipedia Review, where she said, "And Cary routinely makes
> exceptions to
> the "must identify to the Foundation" policy, too," which seemed odd.
>
> It was such an outrageous comment that I wanted to ask what is
> checked.
> Cary, thank you for answering. Is what Greg mentioned he did what
> happens to
> all people with private access--do they have to provide a passport,
> state
> ID, something like that?

I don't know what Kelly is referring to here. Cary doesn't make
exceptions, routinely or otherwise, to the identification policy.
Greg's experience is the norm, and it has been since I came on at the
Foundation a year ago (one-year anniversary coming up in July!).

--Mike

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bradp.wmf at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 2:16 PM

Post #11 of 43 (745 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Mike Godwin <mgodwin[at]wikimedia.org> wrote:

>
> Joe writes:
>
> > My reason for asking was from a comment left by Kelly Martin on the
> > Wikipedia Review, where she said, "And Cary routinely makes
> > exceptions to
> > the "must identify to the Foundation" policy, too," which seemed odd.
> >
> > It was such an outrageous comment that I wanted to ask what is
> > checked.
> > Cary, thank you for answering. Is what Greg mentioned he did what
> > happens to
> > all people with private access--do they have to provide a passport,
> > state
> > ID, something like that?
>
> I don't know what Kelly is referring to here. Cary doesn't make
> exceptions, routinely or otherwise, to the identification policy.
> Greg's experience is the norm, and it has been since I came on at the
> Foundation a year ago (one-year anniversary coming up in July!).
>
>
> --Mike
>
>
>
>
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>

And, for more than a year since Mike joined WMF, real identification was
demanded of candidates. I take minor exception to Greg's observation
earlier that only the winner would "really" need to supply ID - the whole
point of this development historically was to discourage an otherwise
unqualified jester from going the entire way through the election process,
getting votes, but not having the legal capacity to act as a board member.
As Danny used to joke, the rule is "we can't have anyone on the board who
needs a permission slip from his mommy."

In meatspace, who you actually are actually matters.

Brad
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 2:57 PM

Post #12 of 43 (732 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

2008/6/25 Joe Szilagyi <szilagyi[at]gmail.com>:
> My reason for asking was from a comment left by Kelly Martin on the
> Wikipedia Review, where she said, "And Cary routinely makes exceptions to
> the "must identify to the Foundation" policy, too," which seemed odd.

Anything said on Wikipedia Review needs to be taken with a very large
pinch of salt. Sounds like this is just Kelly Martin talking nonsense
on WR - anyone particularly surprised?

Tango

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swatjester at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 3:22 PM

Post #13 of 43 (741 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Moderately surprised in that Kelly had essentially given up Wikipedia as a
topic on her blog, and essentially quit all things Wikipedia; not sure why
this topic made her choose to come back.

-Dan

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton[at]gmail.com>
wrote:

> 2008/6/25 Joe Szilagyi <szilagyi[at]gmail.com>:
> > My reason for asking was from a comment left by Kelly Martin on the
> > Wikipedia Review, where she said, "And Cary routinely makes exceptions to
> > the "must identify to the Foundation" policy, too," which seemed odd.
>
> Anything said on Wikipedia Review needs to be taken with a very large
> pinch of salt. Sounds like this is just Kelly Martin talking nonsense
> on WR - anyone particularly surprised?
>
> Tango
>
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geniice at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 7:21 AM

Post #14 of 43 (677 views)
Permalink

Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

2008/6/25 Mike Godwin <mgodwin[at]wikimedia.org>:
>
> Joe writes:
>
>> My reason for asking was from a comment left by Kelly Martin on the
>> Wikipedia Review, where she said, "And Cary routinely makes
>> exceptions to
>> the "must identify to the Foundation" policy, too," which seemed odd.
>>
>> It was such an outrageous comment that I wanted to ask what is
>> checked.
>> Cary, thank you for answering. Is what Greg mentioned he did what
>> happens to
>> all people with private access--do they have to provide a passport,
>> state
>> ID, something like that?
>
> I don't know what Kelly is referring to here. Cary doesn't make
> exceptions, routinely or otherwise, to the identification policy.
> Greg's experience is the norm, and it has been since I came on at the
> Foundation a year ago (one-year anniversary coming up in July!).
>
>
> --Mike

Eh back when OTRS was first activated I think ID was required for
everyone so some old timers are likely to be confused about how things
are run now. Either way it is better than what went before.

--
geni

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philippebeaudette at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 11:36 AM

Post #15 of 43 (663 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Jun 25, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Mike Godwin wrote:

> I don't know what Kelly is referring to here. Cary doesn't make
> exceptions, routinely or otherwise, to the identification policy.
> Greg's experience is the norm, and it has been since I came on at the
> Foundation a year ago (one-year anniversary coming up in July!).
>
>
> --Mike

In my situation, a good chunk of the WMF staff knows me pretty well,
I'm spent a (not insignificant) amount of time in their offices, and
been through some fairly thorough questioning on various topics. And
yet, when I needed access to private information for the board
elections, Cary - who can pick me out of a lineup and knows me
reasonably well, I think - asked to see my driver's license.

My gut feel and personal experience says that the policy is being
enforced fairly stringently.

Philippe

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scream at datascreamer

Jun 29, 2008, 12:23 PM

Post #16 of 43 (661 views)
Permalink

Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

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Hash: SHA1

Philippe Beaudette wrote:
>
> On Jun 25, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Mike Godwin wrote:
>
>> I don't know what Kelly is referring to here. Cary doesn't make
>> exceptions, routinely or otherwise, to the identification policy.
>> Greg's experience is the norm, and it has been since I came on at the
>> Foundation a year ago (one-year anniversary coming up in July!).
>>
>>
>> --Mike
>
>
> In my situation, a good chunk of the WMF staff knows me pretty well,
> I'm spent a (not insignificant) amount of time in their offices, and
> been through some fairly thorough questioning on various topics. And
> yet, when I needed access to private information for the board
> elections, Cary - who can pick me out of a lineup and knows me
> reasonably well, I think - asked to see my driver's license.
>
> My gut feel and personal experience says that the policy is being
> enforced fairly stringently.
>
> Philippe
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

I have been asked to provide and have provided two government issued ID's.

Best, Jon
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pn007a2145 at blueyonder

Jun 29, 2008, 12:26 PM

Post #17 of 43 (666 views)
Permalink

Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Philippe Beaudette wrote:
>> On Jun 25, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Mike Godwin wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know what Kelly is referring to here. Cary doesn't make
>>> exceptions, routinely or otherwise, to the identification policy.
>>> Greg's experience is the norm, and it has been since I came on at
>>> the Foundation a year ago (one-year anniversary coming up in July!).
>>>
>>>
>>> --Mike
>>
>>
>> In my situation, a good chunk of the WMF staff knows me pretty well,
>> I'm spent a (not insignificant) amount of time in their offices, and
>> been through some fairly thorough questioning on various topics. And
>> yet, when I needed access to private information for the board
>> elections, Cary - who can pick me out of a lineup and knows me
>> reasonably well, I think - asked to see my driver's license.
>>
>> My gut feel and personal experience says that the policy is being
>> enforced fairly stringently.
>>
>> Philippe

To me it seems no more than exercising due diligence; I for one would prefer
personal data to be overprotected than underprotected, and it seems
indicative of the amount of care taken. That could be critical in
litigation.

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philippebeaudette at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 3:03 PM

Post #18 of 43 (666 views)
Permalink

Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Jun 29, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Phil Nash wrote:

> To me it seems no more than exercising due diligence; I for one
> would prefer
> personal data to be overprotected than underprotected, and it seems
> indicative of the amount of care taken. That could be critical in
> litigation.

I didn't mean to imply anything else. You're absolutely correct, and
I agree with you.

philippe

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brian.mcneil at wikinewsie

Jun 29, 2008, 3:23 PM

Post #19 of 43 (664 views)
Permalink

Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

Like others who have commented here, I was required to prove I was of age
with legal ID before accessing OTRS. Were the claim that people _used to be_
lax, I would believe it. To claim they have become lax just seems silly.
Part of Sue's remit has been to reduce informality and make processes like
this a casual, but required, formality. It should not be a big deal for
people who are prepared to take on roles like this and CheckUser to get
them. Part and parcel of that is that the office does not turn it into as
much of an ordeal as getting a NATO security clearance. The key thing is
proving you are old enough to be legally responsible for your actions. To
start with, you will not get to the position of being asked that unless you
have - online - proven you act mature enough to take responsibility for your
actions.

Those who would criticise how the whole thing works would do well to look at
the social structure, and to stop looking for the cabals. Wikimedia projects
are meritocracies, and administrators as young as fourteen can end up taking
the decision to block the entire U.S. Congress from editing Wikipedia. If
their reasoning is sound, they will be backed up. To get to that position
they've been through a trial of fire and proven themselves mature beyond
their years. When they can prove they've hit the right age, they'll get
access to the stuff that the privacy policy covers.

I have neither seen, nor heard, anything to contradict this being the way
things are run. Neither Wikipedia Review or Kelly Martin should be
considered credible sources.

Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Phil Nash
Sent: 29 June 2008 21:26
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser

Philippe Beaudette wrote:
>> On Jun 25, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Mike Godwin wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know what Kelly is referring to here. Cary doesn't make
>>> exceptions, routinely or otherwise, to the identification policy.
>>> Greg's experience is the norm, and it has been since I came on at
>>> the Foundation a year ago (one-year anniversary coming up in July!).
>>>
>>>
>>> --Mike
>>
>>
>> In my situation, a good chunk of the WMF staff knows me pretty well,
>> I'm spent a (not insignificant) amount of time in their offices, and
>> been through some fairly thorough questioning on various topics. And
>> yet, when I needed access to private information for the board
>> elections, Cary - who can pick me out of a lineup and knows me
>> reasonably well, I think - asked to see my driver's license.
>>
>> My gut feel and personal experience says that the policy is being
>> enforced fairly stringently.
>>
>> Philippe

To me it seems no more than exercising due diligence; I for one would prefer

personal data to be overprotected than underprotected, and it seems
indicative of the amount of care taken. That could be critical in
litigation.

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majorly.wiki at googlemail

Jun 29, 2008, 3:28 PM

Post #20 of 43 (662 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

When I became an OTRS volunteer, I didn't need to send any ID (this was
September 2007). When I ran in the steward election, I sent a photo of my
passport, which was required. Still, it could be incredibly easy to forge
such a thing, or use someone elses.

--
Al Tally
(User:Majorly)
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philippebeaudette at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 3:38 PM

Post #21 of 43 (660 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

On Jun 29, 2008, at 5:28 PM, Al Tally wrote:

> When I became an OTRS volunteer, I didn't need to send any ID (this
> was
> September 2007). When I ran in the steward election, I sent a photo
> of my
> passport, which was required. Still, it could be incredibly easy to
> forge
> such a thing, or use someone elses.

Mind you, I'm no lawyer, but I would think there are SIGNIFICANT legal
penalties to forging a passport to use as identification. Even if not
(because you're not presenting it to a government authority), I would
think the Foundation has done appropriate due-diligence. In any case,
WP:BEANS.
_____________________
Philippe Beaudette
Tulsa, OK
philippebeaudette[at]gmail.com

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scream at datascreamer

Jun 29, 2008, 3:57 PM

Post #22 of 43 (666 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

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Al Tally wrote:
> When I became an OTRS volunteer, I didn't need to send any ID (this was
> September 2007). When I ran in the steward election, I sent a photo of my
> passport, which was required. Still, it could be incredibly easy to forge
> such a thing, or use someone elses.
>
Oh my. Serious legal consequences for forging such a thing. I'm sure
the foundation has a method to vet these things.

Jon
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 4:02 PM

Post #23 of 43 (659 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

> Oh my. Serious legal consequences for forging such a thing. I'm sure
> the foundation has a method to vet these things.

How could they do that? They might be able to tell if the passport is
real or not, but there's no way they can tell whether or not it's
actually yours.

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scream at datascreamer

Jun 29, 2008, 4:16 PM

Post #24 of 43 (662 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

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Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> Oh my. Serious legal consequences for forging such a thing. I'm sure
>> the foundation has a method to vet these things.
>
> How could they do that? They might be able to tell if the passport is
> real or not, but there's no way they can tell whether or not it's
> actually yours.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Really, there is no way? So if I take a photo of myself, and my
passport, with the weather channel (with current date and time) behind
us, there is no way? There are plenty of methods.

Best,
Jon
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 29, 2008, 4:25 PM

Post #25 of 43 (660 views)
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Re: identity disclosure and access to OTRS/Checkuser [In reply to]

> Really, there is no way? So if I take a photo of myself, and my
> passport, with the weather channel (with current date and time) behind
> us, there is no way? There are plenty of methods.

While I've never had to verify my identity with the foundation, my
understanding is that they *don't* ask for a picture taken in front of
the weather channel along with the passport. Given the information
they request, there is no way for them to verify the passport is of
the right person.

Even if you do take a picture in front of the weather channel, how do
you prove it's you?

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