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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly

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brian.mcneil at wikinewsie

Jun 19, 2008, 2:35 PM

Post #1 of 12 (518 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly

News for, and from, the Vatican! :-P

Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Dan Rosenthal
Sent: 19 June 2008 23:29
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Please REJECT the latin wikinews
project.inmediatly

We have a Latin Wikipedia that is alive and well, and proceeding quite
nicely. Why would we reject the Latin Wikinews?

-Dan

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Jean Paul montaigne <
hundredaffaire[at]live.com> wrote:

> there is a request to a new project of wikinews in latin:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Latina
>
> accordying to the new policy: only wikisource is allowed in ancient,
> classical, historical, extinct or dead languages.
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy
>
> and now, the language committee is competent in the request of new
> projects.
> such as recently reject the project of wikinews in simple english, for the
> currently policy, of course, (in this case for not having a valid ISO
> code).
>
>
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Simple_En
gli
> sh
>
> and, now, please apply the rules and reject the latin wikinews project.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jean Paul Montaigne
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
Dan Rosenthal
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millosh at gmail

Jun 19, 2008, 7:07 PM

Post #2 of 12 (504 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:35 PM, Brian McNeil
<brian.mcneil[at]wikinewsie.org> wrote:
> News for, and from, the Vatican! :-P

Seriously, does it have a sense? I mean, does Vatican has some news
production (news readers would be easier to find) in Latin?

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aphaia at gmail

Jun 19, 2008, 10:24 PM

Post #3 of 12 (492 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

The fact we here may want to consider they issue a daily newspaper in
Italian, and its weekly edition in several modern European languages:
English, French, German, Polish, Spanish and Portuguese.

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/or/index.htm

No Latin, indeed.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Milos Rancic <millosh[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:35 PM, Brian McNeil
> <brian.mcneil[at]wikinewsie.org> wrote:
>> News for, and from, the Vatican! :-P
>
> Seriously, does it have a sense? I mean, does Vatican has some news
> production (news readers would be easier to find) in Latin?
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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millosh at gmail

Jun 20, 2008, 1:12 AM

Post #4 of 12 (494 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Aphaia <aphaia[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> The fact we here may want to consider they issue a daily newspaper in
> Italian, and its weekly edition in several modern European languages:
> English, French, German, Polish, Spanish and Portuguese.
>
> http://www.vatican.va/news_services/or/index.htm
>
> No Latin, indeed.

Hm. If no one relevant is making news in Latin (which should be
checked; however, the most relevant institution isn't doing that), I
don't see a reason why Wikimedia should do that.

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 20, 2008, 4:43 AM

Post #5 of 12 (490 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

> Hm. If no one relevant is making news in Latin (which should be
> checked; however, the most relevant institution isn't doing that), I
> don't see a reason why Wikimedia should do that.

What do you mean by "making news in Latin"? A lot of news isn't
reported in the language it happens in. There are people reporting
news in Latin:

http://www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii/
http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net/

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millosh at gmail

Jun 20, 2008, 7:25 PM

Post #6 of 12 (481 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hm. If no one relevant is making news in Latin (which should be
>> checked; however, the most relevant institution isn't doing that), I
>> don't see a reason why Wikimedia should do that.
>
> What do you mean by "making news in Latin"? A lot of news isn't
> reported in the language it happens in. There are people reporting
> news in Latin:
>
> http://www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii/
> http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net/

Thanks. I remembered now for the Finnish radio... So, it seems that
Latin Wikinews may be useful.

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brian.mcneil at wikinewsie

Jun 22, 2008, 2:56 PM

Post #7 of 12 (469 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

This is silly. The biggest Wikinews project is English, and we struggle. On
a good day, we have 10-20 articles, but the days where we have ten or less
outnumber those. Just how many competent Latin authors do we seriously think
we can muster? How many articles can they write *per day*? This is seriously
different from Wikipedia, you have a very short window of opportunity where
something is news; it just comes across as a vanity idea for those would-be
dilettantes who might contribute one or two articles a month. You need to
generate new content day-in, day-out, continually.

I've said it before, and it is effectively a project axiom now, "Facts don't
cease to be facts, but news ceases to be news".

Efforts would be better directed at working out how to get those guilty of
recentism on Wikipedia to work on Wikinews, and to getting Wikinews'
archiving managed such that the project's stories can be used as sources for
Wikipedia articles.

Simple English is a different kettle of fish, but Wikinews would
realistically only be provided as an educational project for improving
people's language skills. I'm afraid it seems we're a long way from
educators regularly using Wikimedia projects for such purposes. For a simple
English Wikinews to work those educators would have to be doing the
translation/simplification themselves, I think we're 5-10 years away from
wiki in general being sufficiently accepted to see such happen. I hope it
happens, and I see a great potential for simple English coverage of current
affairs being an educational tool. Yet, there is nothing stopping people
from contributing articles on the regular English project that are
restricted to the simple vocabulary and labelling them as such. I would have
no problem with less common words having links to wiktionary for a
definition, and if such were to improve the function of the project in
spreading knowledge I don't think anyone else would either.

Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ziko van Dijk
Sent: 22 June 2008 21:21
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Please REJECT the latin wikinews
project.inmediatly

I am not so happy about the rules for allowing new Wikipemia
projects... as Latin Wikipedia has proved to do very well (much better
than many languages with many native speakers), and as there are Latin
news e.g. at Finnish radio, I don't see a problem with allowing
Wikinews in Latin.
Ziko

2008/6/22 Ray Saintonge <saintonge[at]telus.net>:
> Jesse Plamondon-Willard wrote:
>> Mark Williamson <node.ue[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've seen a lot of people in opposition to the current policy, and not
>>> too many in support of it.
>>>
>> I've seen a lot of people who would prefer we make some changes to the
>> policy (which is very common in any compromise), but not much
>> agreement on how to change it. Are you suggesting that we stop
>> processing requests for dead languages until we reach consensus on a
>> policy with which to do so? That leads to the same result as applying
>> the established policy.
>>
>>
> Am I wrong to just get more confused about this situation? The function
> of any (sub-)committee is to recommend rather than to decide. It can
> recommend that a project be started or not. It can recommend criteria
> to guide such decisions. This goes off the rails when those criteria
> are treated as set-in-stone rules. Whether a language is dead is a fine
> criterion. Whether a language has an ISO code is a fine criterion. The
> presence of an adequate community for a project is a fine criterion.
> There are surely other fine criteria. None should be absolutely
> determinative by itself. The committee's recommendations should take
> all of these into account and not get overly upset when the community or
> the Board occasionally comes to a different conclusion.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde

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ronmoss at dslnorthwest

Jun 23, 2008, 9:19 AM

Post #8 of 12 (456 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

Mark If you can find time can you google Sherry Peel Jackson and Joe
Banister? Both are former IRS agents that have been worked over pretty well.
In fact Sherry is still in prison as a political example. cay you figure out
how to get her released? Her kids are teenagers and need her. Then google
Peter Hendrickson and Tom Cryer both of which hav mastered the IRS Mafia
people. Thanksfor your time. You seem quite capable. Ron Moss
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Williamson" <node.ue[at]gmail.com>
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Please REJECT the latin wikinews
project.inmediatly

>I wrote one sentence, and you got that suggestion out of it?
>
> Mark
>
> 2008/6/22 Jesse Plamondon-Willard <pathoschild[at]gmail.com>:
>> Mark Williamson <node.ue[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've seen a lot of people in opposition to the current policy, and not
>>> too many in support of it.
>>
>> I've seen a lot of people who would prefer we make some changes to the
>> policy (which is very common in any compromise), but not much
>> agreement on how to change it. Are you suggesting that we stop
>> processing requests for dead languages until we reach consensus on a
>> policy with which to do so? That leads to the same result as applying
>> the established policy.
>>
>> --
>> Yours cordially,
>> Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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node.ue at gmail

Jun 23, 2008, 9:26 AM

Post #9 of 12 (456 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

Make a video about her on YouTube.

Mark

On 23/06/2008, Ron Moss <ronmoss[at]dslnorthwest.net> wrote:
> Mark If you can find time can you google Sherry Peel Jackson and Joe
> Banister? Both are former IRS agents that have been worked over pretty well.
> In fact Sherry is still in prison as a political example. cay you figure out
> how to get her released? Her kids are teenagers and need her. Then google
> Peter Hendrickson and Tom Cryer both of which hav mastered the IRS Mafia
> people. Thanksfor your time. You seem quite capable. Ron Moss
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Williamson" <node.ue[at]gmail.com>
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Please REJECT the latin wikinews
> project.inmediatly
>
>
>
> >I wrote one sentence, and you got that suggestion out of it?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > 2008/6/22 Jesse Plamondon-Willard <pathoschild[at]gmail.com>:
> >> Mark Williamson <node.ue[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I've seen a lot of people in opposition to the current policy, and not
> >>> too many in support of it.
> >>
> >> I've seen a lot of people who would prefer we make some changes to the
> >> policy (which is very common in any compromise), but not much
> >> agreement on how to change it. Are you suggesting that we stop
> >> processing requests for dead languages until we reach consensus on a
> >> policy with which to do so? That leads to the same result as applying
> >> the established policy.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Yours cordially,
> >> Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
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brian.mcneil at wikinewsie

Jun 23, 2008, 12:41 PM

Post #10 of 12 (454 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

I already stated that, as one of the more senior Wikinews contributors, I
would welcome an effort to make templates and write articles within the
Simple English limited vocabulary on the standard English Wikinews project.
Writing simple English is hard; I doubt I could do it. In addition, the
focus is not primarily the news event, but the demonstration of the basics
of the language in use. News has a potential to be good for this because
there is a chance students already know the story from sources in their own
language. There is scope to infer meaning from unknown words and increase
known vocabulary.

I cannot ever see an independent Simple English Wikinews working. The very
idea is closer to a Wikiversity language education project than a news
dissemination project.

I would be delighted to see the proponents of such a project redirected to
the main English Wikinews, and the Wikinews-l mailing list. I believe the
project can find a place for them and their work - provided it is recognised
that they are providing educational texts based on current affairs.

Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces[at]lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of George
Herbert
Sent: 23 June 2008 20:43
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Please REJECT the latin wikinews
project.inmediatly

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Al Tally <majorly.wiki[at]googlemail.com>
wrote:
> 2008/6/20 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton[at]gmail.com>:
>
>> Agreed. A Simple English Wikinews would be really useful. Getting
>> internationally relevant news in every language is difficult, but
>> getting it in Simple English would be easy, and then a large number of
>> people can benefit from it.
>>
>
> See
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Simple_En
glish
>
> It cannot be created.

That's a "rejected under current policy, you might do it within
existing english Wikinews" not "cannot be created".

There's an important difference...

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert[at]gmail.com

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lars at aronsson

Jun 23, 2008, 4:37 PM

Post #11 of 12 (448 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

Brian McNeil wrote:

> I cannot ever see an independent Simple English Wikinews working.

I have my doubts about Wikinews in any language, including Latin.
But I do know that Radio Finland has news broadcasts in Latin and
what if *they* could be made to use Wikinews as their platform?

http://www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii/audi/

Finnish tax payers (or radio license holders?) already pay for
these journalists doing this, for no commercial benefit. Maybe we
should talk to Linus Torvalds' dad, who is a reporter for Radio
Finland in Washington DC. Maybe Sue Gardner's background at CBC
will be useful. Who knows. Less likely things have happened.

--
Lars Aronsson (lars[at]aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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saintonge at telus

Jun 25, 2008, 12:03 AM

Post #12 of 12 (428 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project.inmediatly [In reply to]

Brian McNeil wrote:
> This is silly. The biggest Wikinews project is English, and we struggle. On
> a good day, we have 10-20 articles, but the days where we have ten or less
> outnumber those. Just how many competent Latin authors do we seriously think
> we can muster? How many articles can they write *per day*? This is seriously
> different from Wikipedia, you have a very short window of opportunity where
> something is news; it just comes across as a vanity idea for those would-be
> dilettantes who might contribute one or two articles a month. You need to
> generate new content day-in, day-out, continually.
>
> I've said it before, and it is effectively a project axiom now, "Facts don't
> cease to be facts, but news ceases to be news".
>
> Efforts would be better directed at working out how to get those guilty of
> recentism on Wikipedia to work on Wikinews, and to getting Wikinews'
> archiving managed such that the project's stories can be used as sources for
> Wikipedia articles.
>

Frankly, I am not partial to a Latin Wikinews myself for reasons similar
to yours. Such reasons make more sense than any cookie-cutter approach
arbitrarily applied to a dead language.
> Simple English is a different kettle of fish, but Wikinews would
> realistically only be provided as an educational project for improving
> people's language skills. I'm afraid it seems we're a long way from
> educators regularly using Wikimedia projects for such purposes. For a simple
> English Wikinews to work those educators would have to be doing the
> translation/simplification themselves, I think we're 5-10 years away from
> wiki in general being sufficiently accepted to see such happen. I hope it
> happens, and I see a great potential for simple English coverage of current
> affairs being an educational tool. Yet, there is nothing stopping people
> from contributing articles on the regular English project that are
> restricted to the simple vocabulary and labelling them as such. I would have
> no problem with less common words having links to wiktionary for a
> definition, and if such were to improve the function of the project in
> spreading knowledge I don't think anyone else would either.
>
>
I'm relatively far more supportive of the Simple English Wikinews than
Latin Wikinews. I find your approach above far more constructive than a
simple dismissal based on the absence of an ISO code. Having it happen
5-10 years down the road seems overly pessimistic. When we have people
willing to work on the concept it is important to find accomodation
somewhere for their ideas. We want more people working at what they
consider valuable. We want to welcome them rather than having them go
away with the taste of rejection. Having Simple English Wikinews as a
sub-project of the existing Wikinews or even of Wikiversity are both
possibilities.

It is very easy for committee members who will never participate in
these projects to reject them, but much more difficult to help in
finding solutions.

Ec

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