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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly

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saintonge at telus

Jun 20, 2008, 9:25 AM

Post #1 of 18 (901 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly

Dan Rosenthal wrote:
> We have a Latin Wikipedia that is alive and well, and proceeding quite
> nicely. Why would we reject the Latin Wikinews?
>
For that matter, what's so wrong about having a Simple English
Wikinews? The question of an ISO code may be a strong prima facie
consideration, but it should not be an absolute rule.

Assuming that there are enough interested people to keep it going, such
a progress has a clear audience. It would, for example, be very useful
for English as a Second Language (ESL) classes where having contemporary
texts in readable language would be a great stimulus to language
development.

Ec
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Jean Paul montaigne wrote
>> there is a request to a new project of wikinews in latin:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Latina
>>
>> accordying to the new policy: only wikisource is allowed in ancient,
>> classical, historical, extinct or dead languages.
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy
>>
>> and now, the language committee is competent in the request of new projects.
>> such as recently reject the project of wikinews in simple english, for the
>> currently policy, of course, (in this case for not having a valid ISO
>> code).
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Simple_English
>>
>> and, now, please apply the rules and reject the latin wikinews project.
>>
>>

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swatjester at gmail

Jun 20, 2008, 9:35 AM

Post #2 of 18 (879 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Agreed, and it's made especially strong in the light that in both Latin and
Simple English, we already have projects online and running (Simple
Wikipedia and Latin Wikipedia, for example). If the currently running
projects are acceptable, why should we be barring new projects in those
languages? It's just ridiculous bureaucracy that we shouldn't be having to
deal with. We shouldn't have rules just for the sake of rules.

-Dan
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus> wrote:

> Dan Rosenthal wrote:
> > We have a Latin Wikipedia that is alive and well, and proceeding quite
> > nicely. Why would we reject the Latin Wikinews?
> >
> For that matter, what's so wrong about having a Simple English
> Wikinews? The question of an ISO code may be a strong prima facie
> consideration, but it should not be an absolute rule.
>
> Assuming that there are enough interested people to keep it going, such
> a progress has a clear audience. It would, for example, be very useful
> for English as a Second Language (ESL) classes where having contemporary
> texts in readable language would be a great stimulus to language
> development.
>
> Ec
> > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Jean Paul montaigne wrote
> >> there is a request to a new project of wikinews in latin:
> >>
> >>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Latina
> >>
> >> accordying to the new policy: only wikisource is allowed in ancient,
> >> classical, historical, extinct or dead languages.
> >>
> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy
> >>
> >> and now, the language committee is competent in the request of new
> projects.
> >> such as recently reject the project of wikinews in simple english, for
> the
> >> currently policy, of course, (in this case for not having a valid ISO
> >> code).
> >>
> >>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Simple_English
> >>
> >> and, now, please apply the rules and reject the latin wikinews project.
> >>
> >>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Dan Rosenthal
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thomas.dalton at gmail

Jun 20, 2008, 9:48 AM

Post #3 of 18 (889 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

2008/6/20 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:
> Dan Rosenthal wrote:
>> We have a Latin Wikipedia that is alive and well, and proceeding quite
>> nicely. Why would we reject the Latin Wikinews?
>>
> For that matter, what's so wrong about having a Simple English
> Wikinews? The question of an ISO code may be a strong prima facie
> consideration, but it should not be an absolute rule.
>
> Assuming that there are enough interested people to keep it going, such
> a progress has a clear audience. It would, for example, be very useful
> for English as a Second Language (ESL) classes where having contemporary
> texts in readable language would be a great stimulus to language
> development.

Agreed. A Simple English Wikinews would be really useful. Getting
internationally relevant news in every language is difficult, but
getting it in Simple English would be easy, and then a large number of
people can benefit from it.

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tstarling at wikimedia

Jun 21, 2008, 12:15 AM

Post #4 of 18 (865 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Dan Rosenthal wrote:
>> We have a Latin Wikipedia that is alive and well, and proceeding quite
>> nicely. Why would we reject the Latin Wikinews?
>>
> For that matter, what's so wrong about having a Simple English
> Wikinews? The question of an ISO code may be a strong prima facie
> consideration, but it should not be an absolute rule.
>
> Assuming that there are enough interested people to keep it going, such
> a progress has a clear audience. It would, for example, be very useful
> for English as a Second Language (ESL) classes where having contemporary
> texts in readable language would be a great stimulus to language
> development.

Most likely the reason there's no code for it is because the administering
bodies both think Simple English is the same language as English. Maybe
they're right, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have wikis in it. Maybe
the language committee is the wrong body to decide on wiki creation in
cases like this.

-- Tim Starling

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symode09 at hotmail

Jun 21, 2008, 12:29 AM

Post #5 of 18 (869 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

I think we need to get the english project working first before we go on further.

brown_cat

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saintonge at telus

Jun 21, 2008, 1:06 AM

Post #6 of 18 (860 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Mark Williamson wrote:
> We've been over this before.
>

I'm sure you have!
> No matter how ridiculous the rules are, they're rules.

That's not a very creative way to deal with the problem. Rules should
not just be a technique for sweeping problems under the carpet.
> If you have any
> idea about how to budge the Language Committee, I'm all ears.
>

My sympathies if they have gotten to /that/ stage. :-)
> While I don't personally support Simple English projects, and I don't
> know that a Latin Wikinews would be useful, I certainly don't think we
> should have any rule against the latter - it has an ISO code and we
> already have a Wikipedia in Latin (although it is not as "successful"
> as some here like to claim, they're certainly working on it).
>

Personally, I would not be likely to write in either, though, for the
reasons that I mentioned before I would be more inclined to support
Simple English than Latin. I would put more weight on the need to have
enough people to make the projects viable.
> I hope nobody mistakes my posts earlier in this thread for my personal
> opinion, because they are not. I was stating the rules as they exist
> and as they have been interpreted by the language committee.
>

Fair enough.
Ec
> 2008/6/20 Dan Rosenthal
>
>> Agreed, and it's made especially strong in the light that in both Latin and
>> Simple English, we already have projects online and running (Simple
>> Wikipedia and Latin Wikipedia, for example). If the currently running
>> projects are acceptable, why should we be barring new projects in those
>> languages? It's just ridiculous bureaucracy that we shouldn't be having to
>> deal with. We shouldn't have rules just for the sake of rules.
>>
>> -Dan
>> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus> wrote:
>>
>>> Dan Rosenthal wrote:
>>>
>>>> We have a Latin Wikipedia that is alive and well, and proceeding quite
>>>> nicely. Why would we reject the Latin Wikinews?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> For that matter, what's so wrong about having a Simple English
>>> Wikinews? The question of an ISO code may be a strong prima facie
>>> consideration, but it should not be an absolute rule.
>>>
>>> Assuming that there are enough interested people to keep it going, such
>>> a progress has a clear audience. It would, for example, be very useful
>>> for English as a Second Language (ESL) classes where having contemporary
>>> texts in readable language would be a great stimulus to language
>>> development.
>>>
>>> Ec
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Jean Paul montaigne wrote
>>>>
>>>>> there is a request to a new project of wikinews in latin:
>>>>>
>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Latina
>>>
>>>>> accordying to the new policy: only wikisource is allowed in ancient,
>>>>> classical, historical, extinct or dead languages.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy
>>>>>
>>>>> and now, the language committee is competent in the request of new projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> such as recently reject the project of wikinews in simple english, for the
>>>>>
>>>>> currently policy, of course, (in this case for not having a valid ISO
>>>>> code).
>>>>>
>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Simple_English
>>>
>>>>> and, now, please apply the rules and reject the latin wikinews project.
>>>>>

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saintonge at telus

Jun 21, 2008, 1:20 AM

Post #7 of 18 (858 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

George Herbert wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Mohamed Magdy wrote:
>
>> Latin Wikinews? another playground? seriously, these people (those who are
>> making the request) should concentrate on their projects in their other
>> language.
>>
> Unfortunately, a lot of volunteer project work happens only and
> precisely because some core of people are interested in doing that
> particular thing, and only that particular thing.
>
> In large volunteer projects, you get things done by letting as many
> people get as involved as they want to do the things that they want,
> and successfully diverting a fraction of the total effort off in
> largescale management / directed activities required for the
> infrastructure. That diversion is a matter of skill and guile by the
> managers in many cases 8-)
>
> In this particular case - we might get those people to do something
> else, sure. But the odds are high that they won't.
>
> If the project wouldn't hurt us somehow or be somehow contrary to
> policy as is, stopping it from happening practically just means that
> less people work on Wikipedia overall. It won't help out other
> Wikipedia projects at all.
>
> I don't think that we miss out much not having a news project in a
> dead language. It's rather silly, yes. But it doesn't harm anyone,
> and we might eventually co-opt people involved into the wider project,
> so why not?
>
>
That's an interesting analysis. For Simple English or the simple
version of any other language (which has yet to be tried) it takes some
very strong writing skills that the rest of us can't cover with big
words. You can start from an existing English Wikinews article, and
rewrite it to fit a restricted vocabulary. Any unavoidable or
additional big word needs to be defined.

Ec

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saintonge at telus

Jun 22, 2008, 10:26 AM

Post #8 of 18 (852 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Jesse Plamondon-Willard wrote:
> Mark Williamson <node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> I've seen a lot of people in opposition to the current policy, and not
>> too many in support of it.
>>
> I've seen a lot of people who would prefer we make some changes to the
> policy (which is very common in any compromise), but not much
> agreement on how to change it. Are you suggesting that we stop
> processing requests for dead languages until we reach consensus on a
> policy with which to do so? That leads to the same result as applying
> the established policy.
>
>
Am I wrong to just get more confused about this situation? The function
of any (sub-)committee is to recommend rather than to decide. It can
recommend that a project be started or not. It can recommend criteria
to guide such decisions. This goes off the rails when those criteria
are treated as set-in-stone rules. Whether a language is dead is a fine
criterion. Whether a language has an ISO code is a fine criterion. The
presence of an adequate community for a project is a fine criterion.
There are surely other fine criteria. None should be absolutely
determinative by itself. The committee's recommendations should take
all of these into account and not get overly upset when the community or
the Board occasionally comes to a different conclusion.

Ec

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zvandijk at googlemail

Jun 22, 2008, 12:20 PM

Post #9 of 18 (853 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

I am not so happy about the rules for allowing new Wikipemia
projects... as Latin Wikipedia has proved to do very well (much better
than many languages with many native speakers), and as there are Latin
news e.g. at Finnish radio, I don't see a problem with allowing
Wikinews in Latin.
Ziko

2008/6/22 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:
> Jesse Plamondon-Willard wrote:
>> Mark Williamson <node.ue [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>>> I've seen a lot of people in opposition to the current policy, and not
>>> too many in support of it.
>>>
>> I've seen a lot of people who would prefer we make some changes to the
>> policy (which is very common in any compromise), but not much
>> agreement on how to change it. Are you suggesting that we stop
>> processing requests for dead languages until we reach consensus on a
>> policy with which to do so? That leads to the same result as applying
>> the established policy.
>>
>>
> Am I wrong to just get more confused about this situation? The function
> of any (sub-)committee is to recommend rather than to decide. It can
> recommend that a project be started or not. It can recommend criteria
> to guide such decisions. This goes off the rails when those criteria
> are treated as set-in-stone rules. Whether a language is dead is a fine
> criterion. Whether a language has an ISO code is a fine criterion. The
> presence of an adequate community for a project is a fine criterion.
> There are surely other fine criteria. None should be absolutely
> determinative by itself. The committee's recommendations should take
> all of these into account and not get overly upset when the community or
> the Board occasionally comes to a different conclusion.
>
> Ec
>
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>

--
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NL-Silvolde

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pathoschild at gmail

Jun 22, 2008, 3:57 PM

Post #10 of 18 (851 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus> wrote:
> Am I wrong to just get more confused about this situation? The function
> of any (sub-)committee is to recommend rather than to decide.
> [...]
> The committee's recommendations should take
> all of these into account and not get overly upset when the community or
> the Board occasionally comes to a different conclusion.

There is no community conclusion to take into account, and the board
has neither objected to any of our recommendations nor vetoed any
subcommittee decision. A group of users arguing on a mailing list with
no agreement or compromise is not a consensus. Should there such a
consensus, the policy would of course be updated accordingly.

--
Yours cordially,
Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)

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saintonge at telus

Jun 23, 2008, 3:05 PM

Post #11 of 18 (821 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Al Tally wrote:
> 2008/6/20 Thomas Dalton:
>
>> Agreed. A Simple English Wikinews would be really useful. Getting
>> internationally relevant news in every language is difficult, but
>> getting it in Simple English would be easy, and then a large number of
>> people can benefit from it.
>>
> See
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Simple_English
>
> It cannot be created.
>
>
That's a rather categorical POV push on your part. Your lack of
imagination should not be treated as a condition equivalent to everyone
else's disability.

While it is true that simple languages do not have separate ISO codes
from their complete counterparts, reference to that seems more like an
excuse than a reason.

The closing statement on the cited page also states:
1. No standard orthography,
2. No literature.
These are both utterly false.

Ec

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majorly.wiki at googlemail

Jun 23, 2008, 3:19 PM

Post #12 of 18 (828 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

2008/6/23 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:

> Al Tally wrote:
> > 2008/6/20 Thomas Dalton:
> >
> >> Agreed. A Simple English Wikinews would be really useful. Getting
> >> internationally relevant news in every language is difficult, but
> >> getting it in Simple English would be easy, and then a large number of
> >> people can benefit from it.
> >>
> > See
> >
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Simple_English
> >
> > It cannot be created.
> >
> >
> That's a rather categorical POV push on your part.

No not on my part. I simply am stating what was written on the page by
Pathoschild.

> Your lack of
> imagination should not be treated as a condition equivalent to everyone
> else's disability.

Sigh. I'm an admin on Simple English Wikipedia. I would love a Simple
English Wikinews. In fact I even offered to help on the original proposal. I
don't suppose you noticed any of that.

> While it is true that simple languages do not have separate ISO codes
> from their complete counterparts, reference to that seems more like an
> excuse than a reason.

See above. I am *for* the idea, not against.

> The closing statement on the cited page also states:
> 1. No standard orthography,
> 2. No literature.
> These are both utterly false.
>
> Ec
>

Perhaps they are false; however your massive assumption of bad faith here
makes me ask "Was I right to vote for you in the board election?" I'm not so
sure. Please don't take my comments in the wrong way again. I said "It
cannot be created" not "I don't want it". Thank you.

--
Al Tally
(User:Majorly)
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node.ue at gmail

Jun 23, 2008, 3:20 PM

Post #13 of 18 (816 views)
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Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

There is no single standardized Simple English. Simple.wp, last time I
checked, didn't have a concrete defined vocabulary... but that was a
while ago, so it may have one now.

Mark

2008/6/23 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:
> Al Tally wrote:
>> 2008/6/20 Thomas Dalton:
>>
>>> Agreed. A Simple English Wikinews would be really useful. Getting
>>> internationally relevant news in every language is difficult, but
>>> getting it in Simple English would be easy, and then a large number of
>>> people can benefit from it.
>>>
>> See
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Simple_English
>>
>> It cannot be created.
>>
>>
> That's a rather categorical POV push on your part. Your lack of
> imagination should not be treated as a condition equivalent to everyone
> else's disability.
>
> While it is true that simple languages do not have separate ISO codes
> from their complete counterparts, reference to that seems more like an
> excuse than a reason.
>
> The closing statement on the cited page also states:
> 1. No standard orthography,
> 2. No literature.
> These are both utterly false.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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saintonge at telus

Jun 24, 2008, 9:53 AM

Post #14 of 18 (800 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Mark Williamson wrote:
> There is no single standardized Simple English. Simple.wp, last time I
> checked, didn't have a concrete defined vocabulary... but that was a
> while ago, so it may have one now.
>
>
This could be said about any language, but in the case of a "simple"
language we have the luxury of being able to define the simple
vocabulary as, for example, the 1,000 most common words in the
language. Even if we dispute whose statistics we use to find the 1,000
most common words, most such lists will have a considerable degree of
overlap.

In some respects we can take the Japanese historical approach to
"official" Kanji as an example. There is even a gradation there of
which characters should be learned at various stages of language learning.

Ec

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saintonge at telus

Jun 24, 2008, 3:38 PM

Post #15 of 18 (799 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Al Tally wrote:
> 2008/6/23 Ray Saintonge
>> Al Tally wrote:
>>
>>> 2008/6/20 Thomas Dalton
>>>> Agreed. A Simple English Wikinews would be really useful. Getting
>>>> internationally relevant news in every language is difficult, but
>>>> getting it in Simple English would be easy, and then a large number of
>>>> people can benefit from it
>>> See
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_Simple_English
>>
>>> It cannot be created.
>> That's a rather categorical POV push on your part.
>>
> No not on my part. I simply am stating what was written on the page by
> Pathoschild.
>
>
OK, I'll take that at face value. In closing the discussion,
Pathoschild is presumably expressing the collective view of the
committee. If your categorical sounding comment was intended to be
ironic a smiley would have helped. Without it, it at least sounds
defeatist.
>> Your lack of
>> imagination should not be treated as a condition equivalent to everyone
>> else's disability.
>>
> Sigh. I'm an admin on Simple English Wikipedia. I would love a Simple
> English Wikinews. In fact I even offered to help on the original proposal. I
> don't suppose you noticed any of that.
>

I didn't, and I just checked the history of the discussion, and found
nothing by you in there. Some of us only hear about these discussions
after the fact, and can't be expected to know where other discussions on
the subject have taken place.
>> While it is true that simple languages do not have separate ISO codes
>> from their complete counterparts, reference to that seems more like an
>> excuse than a reason.
>>
> See above. I am *for* the idea, not against.
>

I accept that now that I know that to be the case. In this and my
following comment I was addressing the specific comments in the closing
statement for the request.
>> The closing statement on the cited page also states:
>> 1. No standard orthography,
>> 2. No literature.
>> These are both utterly false.
> Perhaps they are false; however your massive assumption of bad faith here
> makes me ask "Was I right to vote for you in the board election?" I'm not so
> sure. Please don't take my comments in the wrong way again. I said "It
> cannot be created" not "I don't want it". Thank you.
>
>
I'm sorry that I misunderstood your comment.

Ec

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saintonge at telus

Jun 25, 2008, 12:19 AM

Post #16 of 18 (790 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Jesse Plamondon-Willard wrote:
> Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus> wrote:
>
>> Am I wrong to just get more confused about this situation? The function
>> of any (sub-)committee is to recommend rather than to decide.
>> [...]
>> The committee's recommendations should take
>> all of these into account and not get overly upset when the community or
>> the Board occasionally comes to a different conclusion.
>>
> There is no community conclusion to take into account, and the board
> has neither objected to any of our recommendations nor vetoed any
> subcommittee decision. A group of users arguing on a mailing list with
> no agreement or compromise is not a consensus. Should there such a
> consensus, the policy would of course be updated accordingly.
>
>
I didn't mention consensus in my comments. Viewed in cold mechanistic
terms you are likely correct. You are also unlikely to find enough
editors interested in the particular project to care one way or the
other to make a difference to the vote to reject a project. Alternative
views on small minority proposals are likely to be scattered enough that
rule makers can depend on inertia to keep decisions unchanged.

Ec

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saintonge at telus

Jun 25, 2008, 12:37 AM

Post #17 of 18 (794 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

Mark Williamson wrote:
> Well then, what do we have to do to show we have a consensus? A straw
> poll? Or do we need an angry mob?
>

It's as much about the decision making process in general. Angry mobs
are a product of frustration and a sense of isolation.

Decisions that reflect a snapshot in time may not be the best. Polls
that reach an adoption threshold may be adequate to allow action to be
taken, but it would be best to keep them open indefinitely after they
have reached that threshold. If, over an extended period of time, new
additional votes result in a different decision, that's OK too.

Ec
> 2008/6/22 Jesse Plamondon-Willard:
>
>> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>
>>> Am I wrong to just get more confused about this situation? The function
>>> of any (sub-)committee is to recommend rather than to decide.
>>> [...]
>>> The committee's recommendations should take
>>> all of these into account and not get overly upset when the community or
>>> the Board occasionally comes to a different conclusion.
>>>
>> There is no community conclusion to take into account, and the board
>> has neither objected to any of our recommendations nor vetoed any
>> subcommittee decision. A group of users arguing on a mailing list with
>> no agreement or compromise is not a consensus. Should there such a
>> consensus, the policy would of course be updated accordingly.
>>

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pathoschild at gmail

Jun 25, 2008, 10:05 AM

Post #18 of 18 (782 views)
Permalink

Re: Please REJECT the latin wikinews project. inmediatly [In reply to]

In case anyone missed the separate message, here it is in this thread:

A set of users have sometimes expressed a desire to revise the
language proposal policy drafted by the language subcommittee.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen any conclusion or consensus on how to
change the policy in any of these discussions. Instead of discussing
it over and over, I suggest interested users collaborate on a
community-drafted policy at
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy/Community_draft>.
This would be drafted and approved by the community using whatever
system they chose.

(This message is entirely unofficial, not from the language
subcommittee. The subcommittee never sends official messages or
proposals.)

--
Yours cordially,
Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)

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