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waerth at asianet

Jun 12, 2008, 3:22 AM

Post #26 of 102 (886 views)
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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

Andre Engels wrote:
> 2008/6/12 Waerth <waerth [at] asianet>:
>
>
>> Then they weren't impressed enough with the face loosing potential. It
>> isn't an easy thing. It must be done in such a way that you are the
>> honorable party (and no not western honor, Asian/Chinese honor). And it
>> must make you look smart and subtle (so absolutely not a lot of talking
>> and compromising). And it must offer them a way out in which they can
>> gain face to the public at large. So that even though they take a step
>> back, publicly it will appear that they have gained. Very common thing
>> in politics here. And what also helps is if you can offer them a
>> scapegoat on whom to put all of the blame.
>>
>
> Problem is: How can a relatively small American foundation that is
> blocked from China have any credulity in threatening to let China's
> largest internet firm loose face?
>
>
There are always ways Andre. You just have to look carefully at the
problem. You remember how the Chinese reacted when the riots in Tibet
were all over the world ........ They lost face then, not just because
of the riots but by them being aggressive in their reaction. That is one
of the reasons that they backed off off their aggressive reactions
pretty quickly. The other reason was that they realized that they were
fanning nationalism which could turn ugly on themselves.

I am sure that there are ways. For a start you could start by copying
their content onto Wikipedia. I know it violates our own rules, but you
cannot always be the nicest kid on the block. If they complain,
basically answer that by copying our content they acknowledged that
their own content was for free. Then if they start to make a stink,
present them with the letters that were send to them (I presume the
Foundation tried to contact them) and to which they never reacted. Do
this publicly offcourse.

Furthermore these kind of things are better not discussed on a public
list where the "enemy" can read what you are planning!

Waerth

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h.schlottmann at gmx

Jun 12, 2008, 4:48 AM

Post #27 of 102 (885 views)
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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

Titan Deng wrote:
> We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which were
> copied from Chinese Wikipedia.

What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?

Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
and makes it available by copying into Baidu.

Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
can't name this source.

But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.

Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]

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effeietsanders at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

Post #28 of 102 (886 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

I agree that this is not as bad for us as for a random website.
However, yo should think of the fact that the edited versions of the
gfdl text of wikipedia now are no longer free, since there is no
license information. That means a missed chance for free information.
That would make it worth while for *me*.

Kind regards,
Lodewijk

2008/6/12 Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx>:
> Titan Deng wrote:
>> We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which were
>> copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
>
> What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
>
> Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
>
> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> can't name this source.
>
> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
>
> Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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dgerard at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 6:17 AM

Post #29 of 102 (889 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

2008/6/12 Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx>:

> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> can't name this source.

They don't actually have to name Wikipedia - they do have to name the
original writers and keep the text under GFDL. Doing that would be
sufficient.

Perhaps they're afraid we'll say nice things about them if they do? :-)

Baidu has a US presence, doesn't it? Can they be approached as a first step?

- d.

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swatjester at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 6:19 AM

Post #30 of 102 (895 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx> wrote:
>
> Titan Deng wrote:
> > We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which were
> > copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
>
> What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
>
> Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
>
> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> can't name this source.
>
> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
>
> Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under our
license. If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge. Copyright
infringement != free knowledge. It == theft. By enforcing that other
websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under, we
are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
assurances that their work will be protected and not abused. I know that I,
for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I knew
that it would be taken by another person and used under their name. That's
not free dissemination, its theft.

-Dan

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dgoodmanny at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 6:26 AM

Post #31 of 102 (884 views)
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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

do they copy as a mirror would, and then add articles of their own, or
do they use the text as part of articles with additions & subtractions
of their own?

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester [at] gmail> wrote:
> On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx> wrote:
>>
>> Titan Deng wrote:
>> > We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which were
>> > copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
>>
>> What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
>>
>> Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
>> Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
>> people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
>> the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
>> parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
>> and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
>>
>> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
>> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
>> can't name this source.
>>
>> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
>> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
>> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
>>
>> Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
> Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
> nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
> their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under our
> license. If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
> compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
> say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge. Copyright
> infringement != free knowledge. It == theft. By enforcing that other
> websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under, we
> are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
> assurances that their work will be protected and not abused. I know that I,
> for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I knew
> that it would be taken by another person and used under their name. That's
> not free dissemination, its theft.
>
> -Dan
>
> --
> Dan Rosenthal
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG

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swatjester at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 6:34 AM

Post #32 of 102 (885 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), they substantially use our
content, but then do not include the GFDL or any links to it, and no
attribution.

On 6/12/08, David Goodman <dgoodmanny [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> do they copy as a mirror would, and then add articles of their own, or
> do they use the text as part of articles with additions & subtractions
> of their own?
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester [at] gmail>
> wrote:
> > On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx> wrote:
> >>
> >> Titan Deng wrote:
> >> > We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which
> were
> >> > copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
> >>
> >> What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
> >>
> >> Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> >> Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> >> people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> >> the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> >> parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> >> and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
> >>
> >> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> >> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> >> can't name this source.
> >>
> >> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> >> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> >> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
> >>
> >> Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l [at] lists
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >
> >
> > Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
> > nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
> > their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under
> our
> > license. If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
> > compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
> > say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge. Copyright
> > infringement != free knowledge. It == theft. By enforcing that other
> > websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under,
> we
> > are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
> > assurances that their work will be protected and not abused. I know that
> I,
> > for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I
> knew
> > that it would be taken by another person and used under their name.
> That's
> > not free dissemination, its theft.
> >
> > -Dan
> >
> > --
> > Dan Rosenthal
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
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geniice at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 6:43 AM

Post #33 of 102 (895 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

2008/6/12 Dan Rosenthal <swatjester [at] gmail>:
> As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), they substantially use our
> content, but then do not include the GFDL or any links to it, and no
> attribution.
>

They use our content at least some stuff they produced themselves and
probably a fair amount of other people's (song lyrics and the like).

--
geni

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magnusmanske at googlemail

Jun 12, 2008, 7:22 AM

Post #34 of 102 (889 views)
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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Waerth <waerth [at] asianet> wrote:
> Then they weren't impressed enough with the face loosing potential. It
> isn't an easy thing. It must be done in such a way that you are the
> honorable party (and no not western honor, Asian/Chinese honor). And it
> must make you look smart and subtle (so absolutely not a lot of talking
> and compromising). And it must offer them a way out in which they can
> gain face to the public at large. So that even though they take a step
> back, publicly it will appear that they have gained. Very common thing
> in politics here. And what also helps is if you can offer them a
> scapegoat on whom to put all of the blame.

That leaves only a Haiku:

When copying texts
Honor people's rights
Stick to the license

Sorry.

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drosenthal at wikimedia

Jun 12, 2008, 7:25 AM

Post #35 of 102 (894 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

Fixed to make it a haiku (5-7-5)

When copying texts
You must honor people's rights
Stick to the license.

-dan

On 6/12/08, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske [at] googlemail> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Waerth <waerth [at] asianet> wrote:
> > Then they weren't impressed enough with the face loosing potential. It
> > isn't an easy thing. It must be done in such a way that you are the
> > honorable party (and no not western honor, Asian/Chinese honor). And it
> > must make you look smart and subtle (so absolutely not a lot of talking
> > and compromising). And it must offer them a way out in which they can
> > gain face to the public at large. So that even though they take a step
> > back, publicly it will appear that they have gained. Very common thing
> > in politics here. And what also helps is if you can offer them a
> > scapegoat on whom to put all of the blame.
>
> That leaves only a Haiku:
>
> When copying texts
> Honor people's rights
> Stick to the license
>
> Sorry.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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magnusmanske at googlemail

Jun 12, 2008, 7:42 AM

Post #36 of 102 (880 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Dan Rosenthal <drosenthal [at] wikimedia> wrote:
> Fixed to make it a haiku (5-7-5)
>
> When copying texts
> You must honor people's rights
> Stick to the license.

Thanks, I can't count anymore ;-(

Magnus

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rainmansr at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 7:48 AM

Post #37 of 102 (886 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

Dan Rosenthal wrote:

>On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx> wrote:
>
>
>>Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
>>Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
>>people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
>>the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
>>parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
>>and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
>>
>>
>
>their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under our
>license. If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
>compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
>say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge. Copyright
>infringement != free knowledge. It == theft. By enforcing that other
>
>

I couldn't agree more with Henning comment above! This is why 99% of
people are into the project, I believe.

Dan, your comment about infringement as theft is relevant only for
western societies. AFAIK, in China, there is a booming internet market,
that is both aggressive and in search for its own identity and market
share. Copyright is seen as one of those bad western thingies, that west
nicely uses to drain China even more (lets not forget - the reason why
you can buy stuff so cheaply in US is that some Chinese guy is working
his butt off). So, it is controversial who steals what and from whom. My
personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
to steal from us. I personally think we should respect the specificities
of the Chinese situation, and help create free knowledge and build
cooperation, instead of trying to enforce western laws.

Robert

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swatjester at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 7:57 AM

Post #38 of 102 (889 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

I have trouble ascribing to the position that because China shares different
values from the rest of the world, it's ok for them to steal other people's
content, and to discourage contributors all over the world who want their
works to be attributed. Given that China is a Berne convention signatory,
it's not unreasonable to assume that the country desires to be a part of the
world intellectual property community. If they want to be part of that
group, they need to play by the rules. The WMF has the entire rest of the
world to consider, not just China, and it's a rest of the world that values
the sanctity of attribution.

-Dan

On 6/12/08, Robert Stojnic <rainmansr [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> Dan Rosenthal wrote:
>
> >On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> >>Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> >>people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> >>the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> >>parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> >>and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under
> our
> >license. If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
> >compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
> >say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge. Copyright
> >infringement != free knowledge. It == theft. By enforcing that other
> >
> >
>
> I couldn't agree more with Henning comment above! This is why 99% of
> people are into the project, I believe.
>
> Dan, your comment about infringement as theft is relevant only for
> western societies. AFAIK, in China, there is a booming internet market,
> that is both aggressive and in search for its own identity and market
> share. Copyright is seen as one of those bad western thingies, that west
> nicely uses to drain China even more (lets not forget - the reason why
> you can buy stuff so cheaply in US is that some Chinese guy is working
> his butt off). So, it is controversial who steals what and from whom. My
> personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
> to steal from us. I personally think we should respect the specificities
> of the Chinese situation, and help create free knowledge and build
> cooperation, instead of trying to enforce western laws.
>
> Robert
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
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bryan.tongminh at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 7:58 AM

Post #39 of 102 (882 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Robert Stojnic <rainmansr [at] gmail> wrote:
> [...] My
> personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
> to steal from us.
> [...]

Even though that is probably true, stealing from somebody because he
stole from you does not exactly sound like a good idea.

Bryan

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rainmansr at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 8:19 AM

Post #40 of 102 (892 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

Bryan Tong Minh wrote:

>On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Robert Stojnic <rainmansr [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>
>>[...] My
>>personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
>>to steal from us.
>>[...]
>>
>>
>
>Even though that is probably true, stealing from somebody because he
>stole from you does not exactly sound like a good idea.
>
>

I agree, the current situation is not exactly great, cooperation to
mutual benefit is far better, but enforcing the western-viewpoint at any
cost is by far the worst ( which is what seems to be pushed by some
people on this mailing list ).

Robert

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swatjester at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 8:24 AM

Post #41 of 102 (889 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

I've yet to see anyone stating that we should enforce any viewpoint "at any
cost".

-dan

On 6/12/08, Robert Stojnic <rainmansr [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> Bryan Tong Minh wrote:
>
> >On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Robert Stojnic <rainmansr [at] gmail>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>[...] My
> >>personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
> >>to steal from us.
> >>[...]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Even though that is probably true, stealing from somebody because he
> >stole from you does not exactly sound like a good idea.
> >
> >
>
> I agree, the current situation is not exactly great, cooperation to
> mutual benefit is far better, but enforcing the western-viewpoint at any
> cost is by far the worst ( which is what seems to be pushed by some
> people on this mailing list ).
>
> Robert
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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brian.mcneil at wikinewsie

Jun 12, 2008, 8:30 AM

Post #42 of 102 (888 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

This is a tired old canard.

Copyright infringement is *NOT* theft.

When you infringe someone's copyright you have duplicated what they have,
not taken it away from them.

For this very reason, the law views the two offences differently. If you
equate copyright infringement with theft, you've been drinking the RIAA
kool-aid.

Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces [at] lists
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces [at] lists] On Behalf Of Dan Rosenthal
Sent: 12 June 2008 15:19
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Baidupedia copyvio collections

On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx> wrote:
>
> Titan Deng wrote:
> > We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which were
> > copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
>
> What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
>
> Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
>
> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> can't name this source.
>
> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
>
> Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under our
license. If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge. Copyright
infringement != free knowledge. It == theft. By enforcing that other
websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under, we
are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
assurances that their work will be protected and not abused. I know that I,
for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I knew
that it would be taken by another person and used under their name. That's
not free dissemination, its theft.

-Dan

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waerth at asianet

Jun 12, 2008, 8:46 AM

Post #43 of 102 (890 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

Robert Stojnic wrote:
> Bryan Tong Minh wrote:
>
>
>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Robert Stojnic <rainmansr [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> [...] My
>>> personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
>>> to steal from us.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Even though that is probably true, stealing from somebody because he
>> stole from you does not exactly sound like a good idea.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I agree, the current situation is not exactly great, cooperation to
> mutual benefit is far better, but enforcing the western-viewpoint at any
> cost is by far the worst ( which is what seems to be pushed by some
> people on this mailing list ).
>
> Robert
Please reread my mails about handling it the Asian way .....

Waerth
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swatjester at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 8:56 AM

Post #44 of 102 (889 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

I disagree. Under our licenses, we require attribution for content. If
someone else takes my content and uses it without attribution, they are
saying it is theirs. That is theft. They have taken my intellectual
property, and claimed it as their own. That's entirely different than the
RIAA line, which says "If you download copyrighted music without paying,
that's theft". There is a HUGE difference between sharing copyrighted
content inappropriately, and claiming ownership and authorship of that
content. The latter is 100% unacceptable; the former at least has moral
arguments against it. I certainly am not a drinker of the RIAA kool-aid, nor
am I trying to equate it to criminal acts like larceny and the like. I am
trying to put it into perspective however; it's not something we should be
condoning or supporting. That's one of the benefits of having free content
-- to minimize the instances of copyright infringement. It's hard to
infringe on free content -- you have to actively try. So those who DO
actively go out of their way to take credit for what our contributors have
made, ought to be viewed in a stricter light precisely because of the
freedom of our content.

-Dan

On 6/12/08, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil [at] wikinewsie> wrote:
>
> This is a tired old canard.
>
> Copyright infringement is *NOT* theft.
>
> When you infringe someone's copyright you have duplicated what they have,
> not taken it away from them.
>
> For this very reason, the law views the two offences differently. If you
> equate copyright infringement with theft, you've been drinking the RIAA
> kool-aid.
>
>
> Brian McNeil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: foundation-l-bounces [at] lists
> [mailto:foundation-l-bounces [at] lists] On Behalf Of Dan
> Rosenthal
> Sent: 12 June 2008 15:19
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Baidupedia copyvio collections
>
> On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx> wrote:
> >
> > Titan Deng wrote:
> > > We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which
> were
> > > copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
> >
> > What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
> >
> > Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> > Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> > people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> > the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> > parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> > and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
> >
> > Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> > give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> > can't name this source.
> >
> > But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> > second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> > the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
> >
> > Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
> Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
> nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
> their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under our
> license. If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
> compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
> say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge. Copyright
> infringement != free knowledge. It == theft. By enforcing that other
> websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under,
> we
> are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
> assurances that their work will be protected and not abused. I know that I,
> for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I
> knew
> that it would be taken by another person and used under their name. That's
> not free dissemination, its theft.
>
> -Dan
>
> --
> Dan Rosenthal
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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swatjester at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 9:00 AM

Post #45 of 102 (889 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

Handling it "the asian way" may work for instances in asia. But what about
in the West, where "losing face" is not a relevant concept? We have to think
beyond this one instance to the general principle that applies. The actual
methods with which we use to address these situations can certainly vary
depending on where the other site is located and how much of our content
they are using. But it is silly, and perhaps discriminatory, for us to say
"Well, if it's an Asian site, we'll embarass them, but if they are not Asian
we'll simply leave them alone unless we want to sue them". It's more
effective for us to say "We won't tolerate this anywhere, and we will take
firm action against reusage of our content in a way that flagrantly violates
the GFDL. The precise type of action will vary depending on what the site
is, where it is located, etc., what they are using, how big they are etc."

-Dan

On 6/12/08, Waerth <waerth [at] asianet> wrote:
>
> Robert Stojnic wrote:
> > Bryan Tong Minh wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Robert Stojnic <rainmansr [at] gmail>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> [...] My
> >>> personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
> >>> to steal from us.
> >>> [...]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Even though that is probably true, stealing from somebody because he
> >> stole from you does not exactly sound like a good idea.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I agree, the current situation is not exactly great, cooperation to
> > mutual benefit is far better, but enforcing the western-viewpoint at any
> > cost is by far the worst ( which is what seems to be pushed by some
> > people on this mailing list ).
> >
> > Robert
> Please reread my mails about handling it the Asian way .....
>
> Waerth
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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h.schlottmann at gmx

Jun 12, 2008, 9:06 AM

Post #46 of 102 (890 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

Dan Rosenthal wrote:
> On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx> wrote:

>> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
>> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
>> can't name this source.

> Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
> nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
> their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under our
> license.

As if I didn't know that ... but I still don't believe it is applicable.

> If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
> compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
> say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge.

Who cares? They distribute encyclopedic information into mainland China.
That's what counts. Not some nifty details about licenses and attribution.

> Copyright
> infringement != free knowledge. It == theft.

NACK - IP piracy is not theft, it's illegal copying. Frankly, it's a
shame when Wikipedians repeat the false analogies of the IP industry.

> By enforcing that other
> websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under, we
> are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
> assurances that their work will be protected and not abused.

Yeah sure ... try that with mainland China. Would be nice if it worked,
but it's not that realistic for the time being. There "imitation" still
"is the sincerest form of flattery."

> I know that I,
> for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I knew
> that it would be taken by another person and used under their name. That's
> not free dissemination, its theft.

It's not theft - if it were, something would be taken from you, so
someone else would hold it and you would not. IP piracy is illegal
copying, because before, during and after you still hold your work -
just someone else has another copy of it without your consent. That's
illegal but it is not theft.

Ciao Henning

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shimgray at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 9:34 AM

Post #47 of 102 (884 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

2008/6/12 Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx>:

> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.

There is a lot to be said for this approach. Until we can *ourselves*
distribute this content to Internet users in China, in effect, we're
over a barrel.

If we go to Baidu and demand "credit [Wikipedia authors] or take it
down", what do we do if they say "okay, we'll take it down"? We'd have
shot ourselves in the foot - there's a billion people who no longer
have access to our content, and this is really not something we want
to be doing.

And if they're smart, they'll see this. They'll see that all they need
to do is say "sorry, no", because we'll have to back down; even a
takedown could be enforced, we would be very unlikely to make it
happen.

I say, leave it be until we're in a position to realistically
negotiate with them.

--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray [at] dunelm

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saintonge at telus

Jun 12, 2008, 9:35 AM

Post #48 of 102 (894 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

Brian McNeil wrote:
> Copyright infringement is *NOT* theft.
>
> When you infringe someone's copyright you have duplicated what they have,
> not taken it away from them.
>
> For this very reason, the law views the two offences differently. If you
> equate copyright infringement with theft, you've been drinking the RIAA
> kool-aid.
>
I think that "theft" was an unfortunate choice of words. A different
word could be used without diminishing the importance of Baidu's
improprieties.

Ec

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theodoranian at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 9:49 AM

Post #49 of 102 (891 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

2008/6/12 Henning Schlottmann <h.schlottmann [at] gmx>:

> Titan Deng wrote:
> > We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which were
> > copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
>
> What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
>
> Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
>
No, it's not true. If you can read the list (the link I gave), those
articles are not controversial articles, not sensitive to the Chinese
government at all. Baidupedia has political censorship, and their staff
review and filter all materials which might be regarded as sensitive to
Chinese government.

>
> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> can't name this source.
>
The ban is not relative to their copyright violation. Wikipedia is not
prohibited to mention. The Great Fire Wall blocks the website with its url (
wikipedia.org).
At least, according to GFDL, they can still mention 5 main authors instead
of mentioning Wikipedia.

> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
>
Our mission is distributing free knowledge, but what Baidu does is on the
contrary way. The claim those articles "copyrighted" (as you can see the
bottom part of every page of those articles with a little (C)2008 Baidu).

Regards,
Titan

>
> Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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theodoranian at gmail

Jun 12, 2008, 10:04 AM

Post #50 of 102 (889 views)
Permalink

Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections [In reply to]

In Chinese language, we use "��" (Piao Qie) to describe the action of piracy
without attribution.
I just look up some online dictionary. �� could be translated as to steal or
to rob, and �� means the action of theft.

For a man educated under the Chinese culture, to call the action of
Baidupedia as theft is not violating the common sense.

Regards,
Titan

2008/6/13 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:

> Brian McNeil wrote:
> > Copyright infringement is *NOT* theft.
> >
> > When you infringe someone's copyright you have duplicated what they have,
> > not taken it away from them.
> >
> > For this very reason, the law views the two offences differently. If you
> > equate copyright infringement with theft, you've been drinking the RIAA
> > kool-aid.
> >
> I think that "theft" was an unfortunate choice of words. A different
> word could be used without diminishing the importance of Baidu's
> improprieties.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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