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Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis

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birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 29, 2008, 11:23 AM

Post #26 of 53 (1263 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

--- On Wed, 5/28/08, Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail> wrote:

> From: Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l [at] lists>
> Date: Wednesday, May 28, 2008, 10:51 PM
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter
> <putevod [at] mccme> wrote:
> > We do have a bot policy:
> >
> > [[:meta:Bot policy]]
> >
> > It is implemented in all small wikipedias I am active.
> Bot owners (in
> > theory) leave a request at a special bot page, if
> there are no objections
> > within a reasonable time (a week or so), the steward
> grants the bot
> > status. Once I had to report on meta and actually ask
> stewards to grant
> > the bot flag for some of the old requests on os.wp.
> >
> > You may be sure the small wikis suffer much more when
> a bot can not get
> > the status since the list of recent changes becomes
> unusable - this is for
> > instance what is right now happening with the newly
> created wikis.
>
> This is one of the most problematic issues: Asking for bot
> flag on
> ~250 projects is really painful. There should be one place
> for asking
> the bot flag for interwiki bots.
>
>

Please no global flag for interwiki bots. An all Wikipedia flag would be fine but not a global one. Interwiki's to not work in a strait forward fashion on Wikisource and bots using the code that works on Wikipedias create a big mess on Wikisource. Interwikis bots will probably only be able to be work properly off of a "white-list" on Wikisources. These white-list have not yet been made so for right now interwikis need to be done by hand. Please do not authorize any bots to do this task on Wikisources.

Birgitte SB

Birgitte SB

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wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail

May 29, 2008, 11:35 AM

Post #27 of 53 (1259 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

There is no reason to panic. Just because a bot gets a technical bot flag
does not mean we bot operators will go out of our way to wreck projects. We
are reasonable people. A note on the global bot fag request page or a
general "global bot noticeboard page" can do wonders in such a case.

As for the problems experienced on wikisource, they are not technical ones.
The problems there are purely cultural and often consequences of centuries
old disputes (such as the bible case). This however is not the time and
place to discuss that.

- White Cat

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb [at] yahoo> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 5/28/08, Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > From: Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <
> foundation-l [at] lists>
> > Date: Wednesday, May 28, 2008, 10:51 PM
> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter
> > <putevod [at] mccme> wrote:
> > > We do have a bot policy:
> > >
> > > [[:meta:Bot policy]]
> > >
> > > It is implemented in all small wikipedias I am active.
> > Bot owners (in
> > > theory) leave a request at a special bot page, if
> > there are no objections
> > > within a reasonable time (a week or so), the steward
> > grants the bot
> > > status. Once I had to report on meta and actually ask
> > stewards to grant
> > > the bot flag for some of the old requests on os.wp.
> > >
> > > You may be sure the small wikis suffer much more when
> > a bot can not get
> > > the status since the list of recent changes becomes
> > unusable - this is for
> > > instance what is right now happening with the newly
> > created wikis.
> >
> > This is one of the most problematic issues: Asking for bot
> > flag on
> > ~250 projects is really painful. There should be one place
> > for asking
> > the bot flag for interwiki bots.
> >
> >
>
> Please no global flag for interwiki bots. An all Wikipedia flag would be
> fine but not a global one. Interwiki's to not work in a strait forward
> fashion on Wikisource and bots using the code that works on Wikipedias
> create a big mess on Wikisource. Interwikis bots will probably only be able
> to be work properly off of a "white-list" on Wikisources. These white-list
> have not yet been made so for right now interwikis need to be done by hand.
> Please do not authorize any bots to do this task on Wikisources.
>
> Birgitte SB
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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shimgray at gmail

May 29, 2008, 11:37 AM

Post #28 of 53 (1262 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

2008/5/28 Jon <scream [at] datascreamer>:

> We could just not get wrapped around the axle about sorting interwiki
> links. I don't think it is a large issue. I can be convinced otherwise
> however.

+1, as I believe the hip young things say these days.

Would it perhaps be simpler to have two kinds of interwiki bots? The
cross-wiki ones can deal with adding and removing links, in
time-honoured tradition, and the local ones can just crawl through
recent changes fixing the order in whatever way is accepted on that
project...

...and those projects where no-one cares, they can just remain as-is,
in a vaguely disorganised form. It's unlikely to prove a crippling
user-interface problem if we leave them be.

--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray [at] dunelm

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scream at datascreamer

May 29, 2008, 11:45 AM

Post #29 of 53 (1262 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Andrew Gray wrote:
> 2008/5/28 Jon <scream [at] datascreamer>:
>
>> We could just not get wrapped around the axle about sorting interwiki
>> links. I don't think it is a large issue. I can be convinced otherwise
>> however.
>
> +1, as I believe the hip young things say these days.
>
> Would it perhaps be simpler to have two kinds of interwiki bots? The
> cross-wiki ones can deal with adding and removing links, in
> time-honoured tradition, and the local ones can just crawl through
> recent changes fixing the order in whatever way is accepted on that
> project...
>
> ...and those projects where no-one cares, they can just remain as-is,
> in a vaguely disorganised form. It's unlikely to prove a crippling
> user-interface problem if we leave them be.
>

I don't see any issues with this solution. It works :)

Best,
Jon
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birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 29, 2008, 12:00 PM

Post #30 of 53 (1252 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

--- On Thu, 5/29/08, White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail> wrote:

> From: White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> To: birgitte_sb [at] yahoo, "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l [at] lists>
> Date: Thursday, May 29, 2008, 1:35 PM
> There is no reason to panic. Just because a bot gets a
> technical bot flag
> does not mean we bot operators will go out of our way to
> wreck projects. We
> are reasonable people. A note on the global bot fag request
> page or a
> general "global bot noticeboard page" can do
> wonders in such a case.
>
> As for the problems experienced on wikisource, they are not
> technical ones.
> The problems there are purely cultural and often
> consequences of centuries
> old disputes (such as the bible case). This however is not
> the time and
> place to discuss that.
>

I don' know why you read "panic" in my message, but it is not how I am feeling about this.

You are incorrect about the problems being "cultural". Unless you understand the fact that there are commonly multiple translations of a work in a single language while the interwiki system only allows 1:1 links to be cultural. Personally I think the developers will someday work out a technical solution to this problem, but for now we need to avoid running the script built for Wikipedia on Wikisources.

I don't understand why an "interwiki" bot, whose script should not be running on a Wikisource should be given a flag to operate there. While I do fully believe bot operators will not go out of their way to wreck projects, I don't see any reason to give such an easy opportunity for unintentional harm to be done.

Birgitte SB

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mike.lifeguard at gmail

May 29, 2008, 12:22 PM

Post #31 of 53 (1262 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

Wikibooks has the same problem - interwiki linking is rather more
complicated for the non-Wikipedia project. I think it would be acceptable to
give a global bot flag BUT bots are only to work where approved (ie not on
Wikibooks unless you ask first; not on Wikisource if you ask first). This
allows stewards to not waste time flagging a bot on all Wikipedias (use the
global flag) but the bot should then only work on Wikipedias (unless it is
allowed to work on the other families).
However, thoughts on this may differ. I know many don't agree that
people/bots are able to /not/ use rights they have, but that's just not
true. Just because a bot is globally flagged as such doesn't mean it must
work on all wikis - it is quite easy to restrict it to only one family.

Mike.lifeguard

-----Original Message-----
From: Birgitte SB [mailto:birgitte_sb [at] yahoo]
Sent: May 29, 2008 3:23 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis

--- On Wed, 5/28/08, Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail> wrote:

> From: Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l [at] lists>
> Date: Wednesday, May 28, 2008, 10:51 PM
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter
> <putevod [at] mccme> wrote:
> > We do have a bot policy:
> >
> > [[:meta:Bot policy]]
> >
> > It is implemented in all small wikipedias I am active.
> Bot owners (in
> > theory) leave a request at a special bot page, if
> there are no objections
> > within a reasonable time (a week or so), the steward
> grants the bot
> > status. Once I had to report on meta and actually ask
> stewards to grant
> > the bot flag for some of the old requests on os.wp.
> >
> > You may be sure the small wikis suffer much more when
> a bot can not get
> > the status since the list of recent changes becomes
> unusable - this is for
> > instance what is right now happening with the newly
> created wikis.
>
> This is one of the most problematic issues: Asking for bot
> flag on
> ~250 projects is really painful. There should be one place
> for asking
> the bot flag for interwiki bots.
>
>

Please no global flag for interwiki bots. An all Wikipedia flag would be
fine but not a global one. Interwiki's to not work in a strait forward
fashion on Wikisource and bots using the code that works on Wikipedias
create a big mess on Wikisource. Interwikis bots will probably only be able
to be work properly off of a "white-list" on Wikisources. These white-list
have not yet been made so for right now interwikis need to be done by hand.
Please do not authorize any bots to do this task on Wikisources.

Birgitte SB

Birgitte SB

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wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail

May 29, 2008, 12:49 PM

Post #32 of 53 (1260 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb [at] yahoo> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 5/29/08, White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > From: White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> > To: birgitte_sb [at] yahoo, "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <
> foundation-l [at] lists>
> > Date: Thursday, May 29, 2008, 1:35 PM
> > There is no reason to panic. Just because a bot gets a
> > technical bot flag
> > does not mean we bot operators will go out of our way to
> > wreck projects. We
> > are reasonable people. A note on the global bot fag request
> > page or a
> > general "global bot noticeboard page" can do
> > wonders in such a case.
> >
> > As for the problems experienced on wikisource, they are not
> > technical ones.
> > The problems there are purely cultural and often
> > consequences of centuries
> > old disputes (such as the bible case). This however is not
> > the time and
> > place to discuss that.
> >
>
>
> I don' know why you read "panic" in my message, but it is not how I am
> feeling about this.
>
> You are incorrect about the problems being "cultural". Unless you
> understand the fact that there are commonly multiple translations of a work
> in a single language while the interwiki system only allows 1:1 links to be
> cultural. Personally I think the developers will someday work out a
> technical solution to this problem, but for now we need to avoid running the
> script built for Wikipedia on Wikisources.
>
> I don't understand why an "interwiki" bot, whose script should not be
> running on a Wikisource should be given a flag to operate there. While I do
> fully believe bot operators will not go out of their way to wreck projects,
> I don't see any reason to give such an easy opportunity for unintentional
> harm to be done.
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

The use of "panic" was a pun, an intended over exaggeration for semi-comical
nature. To ease tensions.

Interwiki linkage was intended to be a 1:1 system - translations of the
covered subject. Wikisource is using interwikis incorrectly. Interwiki.py is
doing exactly what it is designed for. I doubt heavily that developers will
come up with a solution.

On wikisource only general articles like [[Bible]] should be interwiki
linked. Each translation of the Bible is considered as a separate version.
The translations of the bible can differ greatly due to disputes that age
over a millennium. Interwiki links should not be used on the individual
chapters of bible "translations" which are really reinterpretations. This
isn't the bots or programmers fault. It is hence a cultural issue rather
than technical.

Separating a project is kind of a segregation we do not want. People
operating interwiki bots with global flags will have very solid operational
parameters. They will have to deal with it once in meta. On meta operators
will learn which wikis they can and cannot operate the bot without going
through days of hundereds of tireless requests.
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wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail

May 29, 2008, 12:51 PM

Post #33 of 53 (1262 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

Like I implied on my earlier post. Regulating it would be much easier and
time consuming from a central location: Meta.

- White Cat

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 10:22 PM, mike.lifeguard <mike.lifeguard [at] gmail>
wrote:

> Wikibooks has the same problem - interwiki linking is rather more
> complicated for the non-Wikipedia project. I think it would be acceptable
> to
> give a global bot flag BUT bots are only to work where approved (ie not on
> Wikibooks unless you ask first; not on Wikisource if you ask first). This
> allows stewards to not waste time flagging a bot on all Wikipedias (use the
> global flag) but the bot should then only work on Wikipedias (unless it is
> allowed to work on the other families).
> However, thoughts on this may differ. I know many don't agree that
> people/bots are able to /not/ use rights they have, but that's just not
> true. Just because a bot is globally flagged as such doesn't mean it must
> work on all wikis - it is quite easy to restrict it to only one family.
>
> Mike.lifeguard
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birgitte SB [mailto:birgitte_sb [at] yahoo]
> Sent: May 29, 2008 3:23 PM
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
>
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 5/28/08, Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > From: Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <
> foundation-l [at] lists>
> > Date: Wednesday, May 28, 2008, 10:51 PM
> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter
> > <putevod [at] mccme> wrote:
> > > We do have a bot policy:
> > >
> > > [[:meta:Bot policy]]
> > >
> > > It is implemented in all small wikipedias I am active.
> > Bot owners (in
> > > theory) leave a request at a special bot page, if
> > there are no objections
> > > within a reasonable time (a week or so), the steward
> > grants the bot
> > > status. Once I had to report on meta and actually ask
> > stewards to grant
> > > the bot flag for some of the old requests on os.wp.
> > >
> > > You may be sure the small wikis suffer much more when
> > a bot can not get
> > > the status since the list of recent changes becomes
> > unusable - this is for
> > > instance what is right now happening with the newly
> > created wikis.
> >
> > This is one of the most problematic issues: Asking for bot
> > flag on
> > ~250 projects is really painful. There should be one place
> > for asking
> > the bot flag for interwiki bots.
> >
> >
>
> Please no global flag for interwiki bots. An all Wikipedia flag would be
> fine but not a global one. Interwiki's to not work in a strait forward
> fashion on Wikisource and bots using the code that works on Wikipedias
> create a big mess on Wikisource. Interwikis bots will probably only be
> able
> to be work properly off of a "white-list" on Wikisources. These white-list
> have not yet been made so for right now interwikis need to be done by hand.
> Please do not authorize any bots to do this task on Wikisources.
>
>
> Birgitte SB
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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innocentkiller at gmail

May 29, 2008, 5:14 PM

Post #34 of 53 (1270 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 3:51 PM, White Cat
<wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail> wrote:
> Like I implied on my earlier post. Regulating it would be much easier and
> time consuming from a central location: Meta.
>
> - White Cat
>
> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 10:22 PM, mike.lifeguard <mike.lifeguard [at] gmail>
> wrote:
>
>> Wikibooks has the same problem - interwiki linking is rather more
>> complicated for the non-Wikipedia project. I think it would be acceptable
>> to
>> give a global bot flag BUT bots are only to work where approved (ie not on
>> Wikibooks unless you ask first; not on Wikisource if you ask first). This
>> allows stewards to not waste time flagging a bot on all Wikipedias (use the
>> global flag) but the bot should then only work on Wikipedias (unless it is
>> allowed to work on the other families).
>> However, thoughts on this may differ. I know many don't agree that
>> people/bots are able to /not/ use rights they have, but that's just not
>> true. Just because a bot is globally flagged as such doesn't mean it must
>> work on all wikis - it is quite easy to restrict it to only one family.
>>
>> Mike.lifeguard
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Birgitte SB [mailto:birgitte_sb [at] yahoo]
>> Sent: May 29, 2008 3:23 PM
>> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 5/28/08, Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>> > From: Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail>
>> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
>> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <
>> foundation-l [at] lists>
>> > Date: Wednesday, May 28, 2008, 10:51 PM
>> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter
>> > <putevod [at] mccme> wrote:
>> > > We do have a bot policy:
>> > >
>> > > [[:meta:Bot policy]]
>> > >
>> > > It is implemented in all small wikipedias I am active.
>> > Bot owners (in
>> > > theory) leave a request at a special bot page, if
>> > there are no objections
>> > > within a reasonable time (a week or so), the steward
>> > grants the bot
>> > > status. Once I had to report on meta and actually ask
>> > stewards to grant
>> > > the bot flag for some of the old requests on os.wp.
>> > >
>> > > You may be sure the small wikis suffer much more when
>> > a bot can not get
>> > > the status since the list of recent changes becomes
>> > unusable - this is for
>> > > instance what is right now happening with the newly
>> > created wikis.
>> >
>> > This is one of the most problematic issues: Asking for bot
>> > flag on
>> > ~250 projects is really painful. There should be one place
>> > for asking
>> > the bot flag for interwiki bots.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Please no global flag for interwiki bots. An all Wikipedia flag would be
>> fine but not a global one. Interwiki's to not work in a strait forward
>> fashion on Wikisource and bots using the code that works on Wikipedias
>> create a big mess on Wikisource. Interwikis bots will probably only be
>> able
>> to be work properly off of a "white-list" on Wikisources. These white-list
>> have not yet been made so for right now interwikis need to be done by hand.
>> Please do not authorize any bots to do this task on Wikisources.
>>
>>
>> Birgitte SB
>>
>> Birgitte SB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

It's been pointed out that this was already discussed elsewhere. I no
longer subscribe to Wikien-l, so I cannot personally say what the resolution
to such discussion was.

"Sorry, this was held in moderation and is now out of context," would've been
an appropriate first response. The fact that you're continuing to debate it when
others pointed out it's been debated elsewhere comes across as trying to get
a different answer from before.

-Chad

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wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail

May 29, 2008, 5:27 PM

Post #35 of 53 (1252 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

It wasn't. Are you sure you are reading the right thread?

- White Cat

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:14 AM, Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 3:51 PM, White Cat
> <wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail> wrote:
> > Like I implied on my earlier post. Regulating it would be much easier and
> > time consuming from a central location: Meta.
> >
> > - White Cat
> >
> > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 10:22 PM, mike.lifeguard <
> mike.lifeguard [at] gmail>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Wikibooks has the same problem - interwiki linking is rather more
> >> complicated for the non-Wikipedia project. I think it would be
> acceptable
> >> to
> >> give a global bot flag BUT bots are only to work where approved (ie not
> on
> >> Wikibooks unless you ask first; not on Wikisource if you ask first).
> This
> >> allows stewards to not waste time flagging a bot on all Wikipedias (use
> the
> >> global flag) but the bot should then only work on Wikipedias (unless it
> is
> >> allowed to work on the other families).
> >> However, thoughts on this may differ. I know many don't agree that
> >> people/bots are able to /not/ use rights they have, but that's just not
> >> true. Just because a bot is globally flagged as such doesn't mean it
> must
> >> work on all wikis - it is quite easy to restrict it to only one family.
> >>
> >> Mike.lifeguard
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Birgitte SB [mailto:birgitte_sb [at] yahoo]
> >> Sent: May 29, 2008 3:23 PM
> >> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Wed, 5/28/08, Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail> wrote:
> >>
> >> > From: Milos Rancic <millosh [at] gmail>
> >> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> >> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <
> >> foundation-l [at] lists>
> >> > Date: Wednesday, May 28, 2008, 10:51 PM
> >> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter
> >> > <putevod [at] mccme> wrote:
> >> > > We do have a bot policy:
> >> > >
> >> > > [[:meta:Bot policy]]
> >> > >
> >> > > It is implemented in all small wikipedias I am active.
> >> > Bot owners (in
> >> > > theory) leave a request at a special bot page, if
> >> > there are no objections
> >> > > within a reasonable time (a week or so), the steward
> >> > grants the bot
> >> > > status. Once I had to report on meta and actually ask
> >> > stewards to grant
> >> > > the bot flag for some of the old requests on os.wp.
> >> > >
> >> > > You may be sure the small wikis suffer much more when
> >> > a bot can not get
> >> > > the status since the list of recent changes becomes
> >> > unusable - this is for
> >> > > instance what is right now happening with the newly
> >> > created wikis.
> >> >
> >> > This is one of the most problematic issues: Asking for bot
> >> > flag on
> >> > ~250 projects is really painful. There should be one place
> >> > for asking
> >> > the bot flag for interwiki bots.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Please no global flag for interwiki bots. An all Wikipedia flag would
> be
> >> fine but not a global one. Interwiki's to not work in a strait forward
> >> fashion on Wikisource and bots using the code that works on Wikipedias
> >> create a big mess on Wikisource. Interwikis bots will probably only be
> >> able
> >> to be work properly off of a "white-list" on Wikisources. These
> white-list
> >> have not yet been made so for right now interwikis need to be done by
> hand.
> >> Please do not authorize any bots to do this task on Wikisources.
> >>
> >>
> >> Birgitte SB
> >>
> >> Birgitte SB
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l [at] lists
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> It's been pointed out that this was already discussed elsewhere. I no
> longer subscribe to Wikien-l, so I cannot personally say what the
> resolution
> to such discussion was.
>
> "Sorry, this was held in moderation and is now out of context," would've
> been
> an appropriate first response. The fact that you're continuing to debate it
> when
> others pointed out it's been debated elsewhere comes across as trying to
> get
> a different answer from before.
>
> -Chad
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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>
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andreengels at gmail

May 30, 2008, 2:01 AM

Post #36 of 53 (1253 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

2008/5/29 Andrew Gray <shimgray [at] gmail>:
> 2008/5/28 Jon <scream [at] datascreamer>:
>
>> We could just not get wrapped around the axle about sorting interwiki
>> links. I don't think it is a large issue. I can be convinced otherwise
>> however.
>
> +1, as I believe the hip young things say these days.
>
> Would it perhaps be simpler to have two kinds of interwiki bots? The
> cross-wiki ones can deal with adding and removing links, in
> time-honoured tradition, and the local ones can just crawl through
> recent changes fixing the order in whatever way is accepted on that
> project...

That would hardly be a solution, I think. Why use two bots where one
could do the same thing? The solution I think is to simply tell the
bot operators what order to use on what wiki. And that solution is
already being implemented for several years now.

For the bots that change order to work correctly, the bot code needs
to know the order. If the bot code knows the order, I see no reason
not to use that information. If the bots use the correct order, there
is no problem to be solved.

--
Andre Engels, andreengels [at] gmail
ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

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wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail

May 30, 2008, 3:10 AM

Post #37 of 53 (1264 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

I am not going to agree nor disagree with that. I personally do not care
about the order one bit. I do believe best solution for that is via code and
svn update to interwiki.py.

- White Cat

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Andre Engels <andreengels [at] gmail>
wrote:

> 2008/5/29 Andrew Gray <shimgray [at] gmail>:
> > 2008/5/28 Jon <scream [at] datascreamer>:
> >
> >> We could just not get wrapped around the axle about sorting interwiki
> >> links. I don't think it is a large issue. I can be convinced otherwise
> >> however.
> >
> > +1, as I believe the hip young things say these days.
> >
> > Would it perhaps be simpler to have two kinds of interwiki bots? The
> > cross-wiki ones can deal with adding and removing links, in
> > time-honoured tradition, and the local ones can just crawl through
> > recent changes fixing the order in whatever way is accepted on that
> > project...
>
> That would hardly be a solution, I think. Why use two bots where one
> could do the same thing? The solution I think is to simply tell the
> bot operators what order to use on what wiki. And that solution is
> already being implemented for several years now.
>
> For the bots that change order to work correctly, the bot code needs
> to know the order. If the bot code knows the order, I see no reason
> not to use that information. If the bots use the correct order, there
> is no problem to be solved.
>
>
> --
> Andre Engels, andreengels [at] gmail
> ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 30, 2008, 6:20 AM

Post #38 of 53 (1249 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

--- On Thu, 5/29/08, Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail> wrote:

> From: Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l [at] lists>
> Date: Thursday, May 29, 2008, 7:14 PM

The fact that you're
> continuing to debate it when
> others pointed out it's been debated elsewhere comes
> across as trying to get
> a different answer from before.
>

Not at all. I don't even know what the "answer" was elsewhere.

I am not sure what other list would be appropriate for a discussion on global flags. And I never saw the pointer to the other disscussion.

Birgitte SB

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innocentkiller at gmail

May 30, 2008, 6:22 AM

Post #39 of 53 (1251 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:20 AM, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb [at] yahoo> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 5/29/08, Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> From: Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail>
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
>> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l [at] lists>
>> Date: Thursday, May 29, 2008, 7:14 PM
>
> The fact that you're
>> continuing to debate it when
>> others pointed out it's been debated elsewhere comes
>> across as trying to get
>> a different answer from before.
>>
>
>
> Not at all. I don't even know what the "answer" was elsewhere.
>
> I am not sure what other list would be appropriate for a discussion on global flags. And I never saw the pointer to the other disscussion.
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Wrong thread, already corrected it elsewhere.

-Chad

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wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail

Jun 1, 2008, 7:12 AM

Post #40 of 53 (1205 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

This is debated where? It was moved here from Wikien-l.

This is an interwiki issue so foundation-l is a better place to discuss it.

- White Cat

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb [at] yahoo> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 5/29/08, Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > From: Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <
> foundation-l [at] lists>
> > Date: Thursday, May 29, 2008, 7:14 PM
>
> The fact that you're
> > continuing to debate it when
> > others pointed out it's been debated elsewhere comes
> > across as trying to get
> > a different answer from before.
> >
>
>
> Not at all. I don't even know what the "answer" was elsewhere.
>
> I am not sure what other list would be appropriate for a discussion on
> global flags. And I never saw the pointer to the other disscussion.
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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innocentkiller at gmail

Jun 1, 2008, 12:11 PM

Post #41 of 53 (1211 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 10:12 AM, White Cat
<wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail> wrote:
> This is debated where? It was moved here from Wikien-l.
>
> This is an interwiki issue so foundation-l is a better place to discuss it.
>
> - White Cat
>
> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb [at] yahoo> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 5/29/08, Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>> > From: Chad <innocentkiller [at] gmail>
>> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
>> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <
>> foundation-l [at] lists>
>> > Date: Thursday, May 29, 2008, 7:14 PM
>>
>> The fact that you're
>> > continuing to debate it when
>> > others pointed out it's been debated elsewhere comes
>> > across as trying to get
>> > a different answer from before.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Not at all. I don't even know what the "answer" was elsewhere.
>>
>> I am not sure what other list would be appropriate for a discussion on
>> global flags. And I never saw the pointer to the other disscussion.
>>
>> Birgitte SB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

White_Cat: I already mentioned that my message was on the wrong
thread. *THIS* issue has not been discussed elsewhere, unlike the
other topic.

-Chad

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pdsanchez at gmail

Jun 1, 2008, 12:25 PM

Post #42 of 53 (1212 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 9:12 AM, White Cat
<wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail> wrote:
> This is debated where? It was moved here from Wikien-l.
>
> This is an interwiki issue so foundation-l is a better place to discuss it.
>
> - White Cat
>

This is a list about **FOUNDATION** matters, not interwiki matters.
Not everything that relates to several wikis is a **FOUNDATION** matter.

Isn't there a wikimedia mailing list?

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mbimmler at gmail

Jun 1, 2008, 12:37 PM

Post #43 of 53 (1214 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 9:12 AM, White Cat
> <wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail> wrote:
>> This is debated where? It was moved here from Wikien-l.
>>
>> This is an interwiki issue so foundation-l is a better place to discuss it.
>>
>> - White Cat
>>
>
> This is a list about **FOUNDATION** matters, not interwiki matters.
> Not everything that relates to several wikis is a **FOUNDATION** matter.
>
> Isn't there a wikimedia mailing list?
>

Well...actually not really. There is a (hardly used) list for
meta.wikimedia and there is wikipedia-l, but if you're discussing real
interwiki/interproject issues, there is hardly any other venue than
foundation-l.
That's also the reason why this message was approved, I'd honestly be
at a loss to tell White Cat where else to go with this.

Michael

--
Michael Bimmler
mbimmler [at] gmail

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majorly.wiki at googlemail

Jun 1, 2008, 12:41 PM

Post #44 of 53 (1210 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

2008/6/1 Michael Bimmler <mbimmler [at] gmail>:

> On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez [at] gmail> wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 9:12 AM, White Cat
> > <wikipedia.kawaii.neko [at] gmail> wrote:
> >> This is debated where? It was moved here from Wikien-l.
> >>
> >> This is an interwiki issue so foundation-l is a better place to discuss
> it.
> >>
> >> - White Cat
> >>
> >
> > This is a list about **FOUNDATION** matters, not interwiki matters.
> > Not everything that relates to several wikis is a **FOUNDATION** matter.
> >
> > Isn't there a wikimedia mailing list?
> >
>
> Well...actually not really. There is a (hardly used) list for
> meta.wikimedia and there is wikipedia-l, but if you're discussing real
> interwiki/interproject issues, there is hardly any other venue than
> foundation-l.
> That's also the reason why this message was approved, I'd honestly be
> at a loss to tell White Cat where else to go with this.
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Michael Bimmler
> mbimmler [at] gmail
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

More people should subscribe to the meta-wiki list in that case. Meta is
there for organising interwiki issues, so people should use that list for
that kind of thing.

--
Al Tally
(User:Majorly)
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pdsanchez at gmail

Jun 1, 2008, 2:07 PM

Post #45 of 53 (1218 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Al Tally <majorly.wiki [at] googlemail> wrote:
>
> More people should subscribe to the meta-wiki list in that case. Meta is
> there for organising interwiki issues, so people should use that list for
> that kind of thing.
>
> --
> Al Tally
> (User:Majorly)
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

And the first step is enforcing the moving non foundation threads there.
IT's unnused precisely becuase of the lax attitude here, and because
noone dares to point where things hsould go (unlike for example,
enwiki matters which are usually pointed to wikien-l )

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pathoschild at gmail

Jun 1, 2008, 2:22 PM

Post #46 of 53 (1210 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez [at] gmail> wrote:
> And the first step is enforcing the moving non foundation threads there.

Wikimediameta-l is for discussions about the Meta wiki, not for
crosswiki discussions. If we don't want non-Foundation discussions on
Foundation-l, we should create wikimedia-l or crosswiki-l, not move
off-topic discussions to another list where they're off-topic.

--
Yours cordially,
Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)

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mike.lifeguard at gmail

Jun 1, 2008, 7:14 PM

Post #47 of 53 (1212 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

Crosswiki-l would be most welcome!

Mike.lifeguard

-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Plamondon-Willard [mailto:pathoschild [at] gmail]
Sent: June 1, 2008 6:23 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis

Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez [at] gmail> wrote:
> And the first step is enforcing the moving non foundation threads there.

Wikimediameta-l is for discussions about the Meta wiki, not for
crosswiki discussions. If we don't want non-Foundation discussions on
Foundation-l, we should create wikimedia-l or crosswiki-l, not move
off-topic discussions to another list where they're off-topic.

--
Yours cordially,
Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)

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mohamed.m.k at gmail

Jun 1, 2008, 7:45 PM

Post #48 of 53 (1198 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

Come on, not another mailing list...

Drini: What do you mean by foundation matters?

user:alnokta

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--alnokta

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mike.lifeguard at gmail

Jun 2, 2008, 9:11 AM

Post #49 of 53 (1174 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

I'm serious. That would reduce traffic on foundation-l (which then I could
un-subscribe from!) and put relevant cross-wiki discussion on a separate
list. I'd be perfectly happy to revive the meta mailing list for this
instead (contrary to Pathoschild). Meta is for coordinating the projects, so
why shouldn't coordination of all projects also take place on that mailing
list?

Mike.lifeguard

-----Original Message-----
From: Mohamed Magdy [mailto:mohamed.m.k [at] gmail]
Sent: June 1, 2008 11:46 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis

Come on, not another mailing list...

Drini: What do you mean by foundation matters?

user:alnokta

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--alnokta

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node.ue at gmail

Jun 2, 2008, 9:43 AM

Post #50 of 53 (1173 views)
Permalink

Re: Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis [In reply to]

Because that mailinglist is for discussion OF meta.

On 02/06/2008, mike.lifeguard <mike.lifeguard [at] gmail> wrote:
> I'm serious. That would reduce traffic on foundation-l (which then I could
> un-subscribe from!) and put relevant cross-wiki discussion on a separate
> list. I'd be perfectly happy to revive the meta mailing list for this
> instead (contrary to Pathoschild). Meta is for coordinating the projects, so
> why shouldn't coordination of all projects also take place on that mailing
> list?
>
> Mike.lifeguard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mohamed Magdy [mailto:mohamed.m.k [at] gmail]
> Sent: June 1, 2008 11:46 PM
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] Bot policy for all wikis
>
> Come on, not another mailing list...
>
> Drini: What do you mean by foundation matters?
>
> user:alnokta
>
> --
> --alnokta
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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