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Modification of the official board election page

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ktc at ktchan

May 2, 2008, 5:58 AM

Post #1 of 12 (543 views)
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Modification of the official board election page

The Election Committee would like to ask the community of administrator
on Meta to refrain from editing the English version of the Board
election page [[m:Board elections/2008/en]].

The page was protected by the committee as it contain the official rules
for the election, and is the source for translations. Its current
wording and formatting is what's agreed by the committee.

Of course, if you spot anything which you think may be an error, any
ambiguity, or any points which you feel should be modified, feel free to
suggest it to the election committee either on the talk page, on this
list, or straight to the election committee. However, please take into
account any changes to the page requires all the translations to be
updated and hence it is unlikely the page will be modify simply for
small grammatical changes.

For the election committee,

Kwan Ting Chan - [[m:User:KTC]]

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine

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axel9891 at googlemail

May 2, 2008, 7:46 AM

Post #2 of 12 (511 views)
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Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

2008/5/2 Kwan Ting Chan <ktc [at] ktchan>:

> The Election Committee would like to ask the community of administrator
> on Meta to refrain from editing the English version of the Board
> election page [[m:Board elections/2008/en]].
>
> The page was protected by the committee as it contain the official rules
> for the election, and is the source for translations. Its current
> wording and formatting is what's agreed by the committee.
>
> Of course, if you spot anything which you think may be an error, any
> ambiguity, or any points which you feel should be modified, feel free to
> suggest it to the election committee either on the talk page, on this
> list, or straight to the election committee. However, please take into
> account any changes to the page requires all the translations to be
> updated and hence it is unlikely the page will be modify simply for
> small grammatical changes.
>
> For the election committee,
>
> Kwan Ting Chan - [[m:User:KTC]]<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l>
>

Minor points such as typos, spacing, and anything that doesn't affect the
actual wording shouldn't need permission to fix. It is a wiki after all. If
someone has translated it without noticing the typo, then it's the problem
of the translator, not of the person correcting the mistake.

--
Alex Newman
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Majorly
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wiki.ral315 at gmail

May 2, 2008, 7:56 AM

Post #3 of 12 (509 views)
Permalink

Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Majorly <axel9891 [at] googlemail> wrote:

> Minor points such as typos, spacing, and anything that doesn't affect the
> actual wording shouldn't need permission to fix. It is a wiki after all.
> If
> someone has translated it without noticing the typo, then it's the problem
> of the translator, not of the person correcting the mistake.<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l>
>

Typos won't hurt anyone. The much bigger problem is that if a change
doesn't actually reflect what is meant, then that could be translated
incorrectly, and incorrect information spreads.

One edit to [[m:Board elections/2008/en]] was a well-meant change regarding
the requirements to run for election, changing "2007" to "2008". The
contributor assumed that it was copied from last year's page, and hadn't
been changed. The problem was, 2007 was /correct/ for that particular
requirement.

Given the possibility of incorrect translations that could have negative
effects on voting from some communities, or in the case of the above edit,
make a user think they're eligible to run when they actually aren't, I don't
think a blanket "don't edit this, please" is unreasonable.

--
[[User:Ral315]]
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axel9891 at googlemail

May 2, 2008, 8:00 AM

Post #4 of 12 (510 views)
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Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

2008/5/2 Ryan <wiki.ral315 [at] gmail>:

> Typos won't hurt anyone. The much bigger problem is that if a change
> doesn't actually reflect what is meant, then that could be translated
> incorrectly, and incorrect information spreads.
>
> One edit to [[m:Board elections/2008/en]] was a well-meant change
> regarding
> the requirements to run for election, changing "2007" to "2008". The
> contributor assumed that it was copied from last year's page, and hadn't
> been changed. The problem was, 2007 was /correct/ for that particular
> requirement.
>
> Given the possibility of incorrect translations that could have negative
> effects on voting from some communities, or in the case of the above edit,
> make a user think they're eligible to run when they actually aren't, I
> don't
> think a blanket "don't edit this, please" is unreasonable.<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l>
>

That was not a simple typo fix.

--
Alex Newman
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Majorly
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stephen.bain at gmail

May 2, 2008, 8:03 AM

Post #5 of 12 (510 views)
Permalink

Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 1:00 AM, Majorly <axel9891 [at] googlemail> wrote:
>
> That was not a simple typo fix.

But clearly someone thought it was, and that illustrates why it's
better to leave all of that up to the election committee.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain [at] gmail

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aphaia at gmail

May 2, 2008, 8:13 AM

Post #6 of 12 (505 views)
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Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 1:00 AM, Majorly <axel9891 [at] googlemail> wrote:
> >
> > That was not a simple typo fix.
>
> But clearly someone thought it was, and that illustrates why it's
> better to leave all of that up to the election committee.

I agree. And only the committee have the knowledge enough determine if
it is a minor fix or serious mistake with the sufficient background
knowledge and context, I wholeheartedly recommend meta admins to
respect a long year custom not to edit the page unless you serves the
committee at the same time. And for the committee, I'd recommend to
note explicitly only they are allowed to edits and other may welcome
to remark on the talk page, just the past teams did from the
beginning.

--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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philippebeaudette at gmail

May 2, 2008, 8:26 AM

Post #7 of 12 (510 views)
Permalink

Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

HI Aphaia -

Such a notation is in a box at the top of the page, and has been for a
couple of days - that hasn't stopped some edits from happening, which is why
KTC brought it here.

Philippe

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Aphaia" <aphaia [at] gmail>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 10:13 AM
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l [at] lists>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Modification of the official board election page

> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain [at] gmail>
> wrote:
>> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 1:00 AM, Majorly <axel9891 [at] googlemail> wrote:
>> >
>> > That was not a simple typo fix.
>>
>> But clearly someone thought it was, and that illustrates why it's
>> better to leave all of that up to the election committee.
>
> I agree. And only the committee have the knowledge enough determine if
> it is a minor fix or serious mistake with the sufficient background
> knowledge and context, I wholeheartedly recommend meta admins to
> respect a long year custom not to edit the page unless you serves the
> committee at the same time. And for the committee, I'd recommend to
> note explicitly only they are allowed to edits and other may welcome
> to remark on the talk page, just the past teams did from the
> beginning.
>
>
> --
> KIZU Naoko
> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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saintonge at telus

May 2, 2008, 11:40 AM

Post #8 of 12 (514 views)
Permalink

Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

Majorly wrote:
> 2008/5/2 Kwan Ting Chan <ktc [at] ktchan>:
>
>
>> The Election Committee would like to ask the community of administrator
>> on Meta to refrain from editing the English version of the Board
>> election page [[m:Board elections/2008/en]].
>>
>> The page was protected by the committee as it contain the official rules
>> for the election, and is the source for translations. Its current
>> wording and formatting is what's agreed by the committee.
>>
>> Of course, if you spot anything which you think may be an error, any
>> ambiguity, or any points which you feel should be modified, feel free to
>> suggest it to the election committee either on the talk page, on this
>> list, or straight to the election committee. However, please take into
>> account any changes to the page requires all the translations to be
>> updated and hence it is unlikely the page will be modify simply for
>> small grammatical changes.
>>
>> For the election committee,
>> Kwan Ting Chan - [[m:User:KTC]]<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l>
>>
> Minor points such as typos, spacing, and anything that doesn't affect the
> actual wording shouldn't need permission to fix. It is a wiki after all. If
> someone has translated it without noticing the typo, then it's the problem
> of the translator, not of the person correcting the mistake.
>
>
Quite the contrary. Sometimes these "minor" changes can imply subtle
changes in the meaning. Even a comma can make a big difference, and
that's more than a matter of grammatical correctness. In the popular
book was it "Eats shoots and leaves," or "Eats, shoots and leaves?"
When it comes to interpreting laws and rules, one can find ample
examples of disputes that revolve around these minor changes.
Historically, a major ecclesiastical schism was founded in the
difference of an iota.

Saying that it's a wiki is not a valid excuse when we are talking about
a page with prescriptive effects. En-wp suffers from this. A series of
minor unopposed changes can have a much greater cumulative effect that
completely change the intent of the policy. It leaves the editors
wondering how we end up where we are.

Blaming the translator for not noticing the typo is inappropriate.
Readings that give totally nonsensical results will probably be taken
into account in the course of translation, but there are situations
where a typo produces valid and meaningful results that have nothing to
do with the writer's intent. Spell checkers are of no help when the
wrong word is also in the dictionary.

Ec

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saintonge at telus

May 2, 2008, 11:48 AM

Post #9 of 12 (510 views)
Permalink

Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

Majorly wrote:
> 2008/5/2 Ryan <wiki.ral315 [at] gmail>:
>
>
>> Typos won't hurt anyone. The much bigger problem is that if a change
>> doesn't actually reflect what is meant, then that could be translated
>> incorrectly, and incorrect information spreads.
>>
>> One edit to [[m:Board elections/2008/en]] was a well-meant change
>> regarding
>> the requirements to run for election, changing "2007" to "2008". The
>> contributor assumed that it was copied from last year's page, and hadn't
>> been changed. The problem was, 2007 was /correct/ for that particular
>> requirement.
>>
>> Given the possibility of incorrect translations that could have negative
>> effects on voting from some communities, or in the case of the above edit,
>> make a user think they're eligible to run when they actually aren't, I
>> don't
>> think a blanket "don't edit this, please" is unreasonable.<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l>
>>
> That was not a simple typo fix.
>
>
Who decides whether it is? It would not be unreasonable to view that
example as a simple typo fix. It's only a matter of a single digit in
the year. Taking the time to ask about it does no harm.

Ec

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aphaia at gmail

May 2, 2008, 6:43 PM

Post #10 of 12 (511 views)
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Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

I completely agree with Ray here. If a document have an official
effects, people who are legitimately in charge of the matter should
take care, and the others are welcome to point out unclear passages,
and any kind of possible errors including grammatical.

But it is not you, Majorly, or me, which is a minor change and which
is not. Both you and I are no member of that committee. It is their
tasks, let them do their own work.

And I would add this rigidity has been a tradition, afaik, since the
first Board election was held. As far as I know, Election committees
in each year unanimously have supported this idea, exactly Ray
explained in his mails.

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 3:48 AM, Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus> wrote:
> Majorly wrote:
> > 2008/5/2 Ryan <wiki.ral315 [at] gmail>:
> >
> >
> >> Typos won't hurt anyone. The much bigger problem is that if a change
> >> doesn't actually reflect what is meant, then that could be translated
> >> incorrectly, and incorrect information spreads.
> >>
> >> One edit to [[m:Board elections/2008/en]] was a well-meant change
> >> regarding
> >> the requirements to run for election, changing "2007" to "2008". The
> >> contributor assumed that it was copied from last year's page, and hadn't
> >> been changed. The problem was, 2007 was /correct/ for that particular
> >> requirement.
> >>
> >> Given the possibility of incorrect translations that could have negative
> >> effects on voting from some communities, or in the case of the above edit,
> >> make a user think they're eligible to run when they actually aren't, I
> >> don't
> >> think a blanket "don't edit this, please" is unreasonable.<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l>
> >>
> > That was not a simple typo fix.
> >
> >
> Who decides whether it is? It would not be unreasonable to view that
> example as a simple typo fix. It's only a matter of a single digit in
> the year. Taking the time to ask about it does no harm.
>
> Ec
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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putevod at mccme

May 2, 2008, 11:19 PM

Post #11 of 12 (510 views)
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Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

> I completely agree with Ray here. If a document have an official
> effects, people who are legitimately in charge of the matter should
> take care, and the others are welcome to point out unclear passages,
> and any kind of possible errors including grammatical.
>
> But it is not you, Majorly, or me, which is a minor change and which
> is not. Both you and I are no member of that committee. It is their
> tasks, let them do their own work.
>
> And I would add this rigidity has been a tradition, afaik, since the
> first Board election was held. As far as I know, Election committees
> in each year unanimously have supported this idea, exactly Ray
> explained in his mails.
>

While I agree with all the above, I have the following question: Is it
stated somewhere that only the English original has a legitimate power? I
mean, the translators are doing their best, but there is no way the
translations will be read with the same care as the original; for
instance, they will never be read by a professional lawyer. Shouldn't it
be a disclaimer on every translated page stating that all legal claims can
only be addressed towards the English text? I am not sure I want somebody
suing me because in Russian translation I unwillingly omitted a comma.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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cbrown1023.ml at gmail

May 3, 2008, 7:35 AM

Post #12 of 12 (505 views)
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Re: Modification of the official board election page [In reply to]

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 2:19 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod [at] mccme> wrote:
> While I agree with all the above, I have the following question: Is it
> stated somewhere that only the English original has a legitimate power? I
> mean, the translators are doing their best, but there is no way the
> translations will be read with the same care as the original; for
> instance, they will never be read by a professional lawyer. Shouldn't it
> be a disclaimer on every translated page stating that all legal claims can
> only be addressed towards the English text? I am not sure I want somebody
> suing me because in Russian translation I unwillingly omitted a comma.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav

It shouldn't be that big of a deal, I don't see anything too "legally"
in there.

But if there *is* something very legal in there, then your idea is
probably a good one. We do the same on Foundation wiki for
translations of policies.
<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:Disclaimer_for_translation>

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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