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Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming

 

 

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brianna.laugher at gmail

May 1, 2008, 12:10 AM

Post #1 of 140 (256 views)
Permalink
Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming

Hello,

I created a page on meta, where we can brainstorm about ways the
chapters can determine their method for selecting Board seats.
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats>

This is going to happen, so let us work together to get the best of all ideas.

I put two sections, 1) "how to gather candidates" and 2) "how to
select among candidates".

I guess the traditional view goes like this:
Community elected: 1) nominations from the community, 2) votes from
the community (1p=1vote)
Board appointed: 2) nominations and 1) votes from the Board (this has
the inefficiency, that the Board may like to appoint someone who is
not willing to serve)

I find it interesting to consider mixing these up:
a) Nominations from the community + votes from the chapters
b) Nominations from the chapters + votes from the community

Of course, for "the chapters", there are multiple possibilities - all
members? comm members? one 'vote' per chapter? (each chapter has to
reach a decision internally) all chapter 'votes' equal? proportional
to membership? something else?

I look forward to seeing what ideas others have.

cheers,
Brianna

--
They've just been waiting in a mountain for the right moment:
http://modernthings.org/

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effeietsanders at gmail

May 1, 2008, 4:00 AM

Post #2 of 140 (244 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

If we consider the chapter seats to be semi-community seats, I think
it makes sense to bring in some kind of relation with either the
number of members, or even better (but harder to regulate) the
activity of a chapter. There are a lot of chapters, and I think it
makes sense that only "active" chapters should have a say in this.
Otherwise that would only attract people to get a chapter just to be
able to vote. I think that is something to consider.

If the voting procedure would be motivating towards activities, that
would be great. It might even stimulate chapters to do things, which
is at the end good for the movement as a whole. Also do I feel that
active chapters have a better idea of what is going on and what is
needed in the board. They have in general a better view on which
problems are ongoing, and need expertise (or certain community skills)
to be solved.

For instance, if the active chapters feel that there is a need for
some technical development on the software, they could choose to pick
a mediawiki developer as their candidate, or at least someone who
advocates the development of software. If they feel that the relations
with the chapters and the WMF are going wrong, they could choose
someone who favors the chapter idea. After all, Board Membership is
besides trust also a lot about setting priorities. Where does the
Movement spend it's limited resources (not only money, but also - not
exclusively - volunteer man power, knowledge of local culture,
enthusiasm and staff time) on and how are the considerations being
made. What type of organization (movement) do we want? All very
important questions to consider when choosing a Board Member.

With that in mind, I feel that it is better to let the more
experienced and active chapters have a bigger say relatively. Of
course all chapters should be talking, but there should be some kind
of balance. To keep things easy, one could choose to give a chapter 1
vote per 100 members. Or 50. Or whatever we want.

I know this is not a precise measure for activity, but it's something.
Does anyone have a better idea to measure activity of an organization
objectively in this context?

BR, Lodewijk

2008/5/1, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher[at]gmail.com>:
> Hello,
>
> I created a page on meta, where we can brainstorm about ways the
> chapters can determine their method for selecting Board seats.
> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats>
>
> This is going to happen, so let us work together to get the best of all ideas.
>
> I put two sections, 1) "how to gather candidates" and 2) "how to
> select among candidates".
>
> I guess the traditional view goes like this:
> Community elected: 1) nominations from the community, 2) votes from
> the community (1p=1vote)
> Board appointed: 2) nominations and 1) votes from the Board (this has
> the inefficiency, that the Board may like to appoint someone who is
> not willing to serve)
>
> I find it interesting to consider mixing these up:
> a) Nominations from the community + votes from the chapters
> b) Nominations from the chapters + votes from the community
>
> Of course, for "the chapters", there are multiple possibilities - all
> members? comm members? one 'vote' per chapter? (each chapter has to
> reach a decision internally) all chapter 'votes' equal? proportional
> to membership? something else?
>
> I look forward to seeing what ideas others have.
>
> cheers,
> Brianna
>
> --
> They've just been waiting in a mountain for the right moment:
> http://modernthings.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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thomas.dalton at gmail

May 1, 2008, 5:19 AM

Post #3 of 140 (245 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

2008/5/1 effe iets anders <effeietsanders[at]gmail.com>:
> If we consider the chapter seats to be semi-community seats, I think
> it makes sense to bring in some kind of relation with either the
> number of members, or even better (but harder to regulate) the
> activity of a chapter. There are a lot of chapters, and I think it
> makes sense that only "active" chapters should have a say in this.
> Otherwise that would only attract people to get a chapter just to be
> able to vote. I think that is something to consider.

I agree, some kind of proportionality is probably required. If it's
one-chapter-one-vote then we also have issues with sub-national
chapters - should they get one vote per country or one vote per
chapter? I think it would be best to keep it proportional by some
measure. Financial turnover might be better than membership - it's not
so easy to pad out with inactive members.

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Anthere9 at yahoo

May 1, 2008, 5:33 AM

Post #4 of 140 (245 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

Brianna Laugher wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I created a page on meta, where we can brainstorm about ways the
> chapters can determine their method for selecting Board seats.
> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats>
>
> This is going to happen, so let us work together to get the best of all ideas.

Thank you for starting the discussion Brianna :-)

Ant


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gerard.meijssen at gmail

May 1, 2008, 5:33 AM

Post #5 of 140 (245 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

Hoi,
So far a chapter was created per jurisdiction; as the law of the Netherlands
is different from the law in Germany it is best to have one organisation set
up in this way if you want to make use of tax deduction and the like.

At this moment there are no sub-national chapters so this notion is
academic. It would make sense to have a US chapter in the first place. When
a particular chapter has proven itself, it makes sense to give it more
influence. The German chapter is well organised and has a lot of experience.
I would rate their contribution higher then a newly created chapter.

It is about getting the job done and get a decent job done. If it is only
about power, then I think this whole notion stinks.

Thanks,
GerardM

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton[at]gmail.com>
wrote:

> 2008/5/1 effe iets anders <effeietsanders[at]gmail.com>:
> > If we consider the chapter seats to be semi-community seats, I think
> > it makes sense to bring in some kind of relation with either the
> > number of members, or even better (but harder to regulate) the
> > activity of a chapter. There are a lot of chapters, and I think it
> > makes sense that only "active" chapters should have a say in this.
> > Otherwise that would only attract people to get a chapter just to be
> > able to vote. I think that is something to consider.
>
> I agree, some kind of proportionality is probably required. If it's
> one-chapter-one-vote then we also have issues with sub-national
> chapters - should they get one vote per country or one vote per
> chapter? I think it would be best to keep it proportional by some
> measure. Financial turnover might be better than membership - it's not
> so easy to pad out with inactive members.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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thomas.dalton at gmail

May 1, 2008, 5:38 AM

Post #6 of 140 (245 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

> At this moment there are no sub-national chapters so this notion is
> academic.

Didn't we just get a Hong Kong chapter?

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millosh at gmail

May 1, 2008, 5:42 AM

Post #7 of 140 (245 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/5/1 effe iets anders <effeietsanders[at]gmail.com>:
>
> > If we consider the chapter seats to be semi-community seats, I think
> > it makes sense to bring in some kind of relation with either the
> > number of members, or even better (but harder to regulate) the
> > activity of a chapter. There are a lot of chapters, and I think it
> > makes sense that only "active" chapters should have a say in this.
> > Otherwise that would only attract people to get a chapter just to be
> > able to vote. I think that is something to consider.
>
> I agree, some kind of proportionality is probably required. If it's
> one-chapter-one-vote then we also have issues with sub-national
> chapters - should they get one vote per country or one vote per
> chapter? I think it would be best to keep it proportional by some
> measure. Financial turnover might be better than membership - it's not
> so easy to pad out with inactive members.

Proportional chapter seats would mean 2 Board members from WM DE :) --
which leads us to the same situation like we have with en.wp at the
project level. BTW, while I would like to see some WM DE members into
the Board, I would like to see in the Board people from some other
chapters, too. I think that better idea is to find the best possible
people from the chapters by reaching consensus in inter chapter
coordination. And I am very sure that chapters are able to make the
best possible choices.

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thomas.dalton at gmail

May 1, 2008, 5:57 AM

Post #8 of 140 (244 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

> Proportional chapter seats would mean 2 Board members from WM DE :) --
> which leads us to the same situation like we have with en.wp at the
> project level.

Yeah, that's definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. They're
chapter seats, not WMDE seats. There are ways of doing something close
to proportional representation without giving a large chapter too much
weight (just cap the votes at 40% of the total, or something, would be
simplest, more complicated would be some kind of logarithmic
apportionment - lots of options to discuss).

I think there ought to be an "Inter-chapter council" with
representatives of all the chapters (perhaps with proportional voting,
perhaps one-vote per chapter, probably depends mostly on what they're
voting on - the main purpose of the council would be coordination, not
making binding decisions). Perhaps they could then appoint the board
members (so the membership of the chapters elect representatives who
elect the board members, cf. US Electoral College). Doing it that way
increases the chance of the chapters choosing someone based on
qualifications, not nationality. (If it's just done as an open vote,
I'm sure people will consider candidates from other countries, but
there will always be a bias towards your compatriots. This bias is
reduced is there is informed discussion among a small group.)

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

May 1, 2008, 6:04 AM

Post #9 of 140 (245 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

Hoi,
Maybe but as far as I know Hong Kong DOES have a separate jurisdiction.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton[at]gmail.com>
wrote:

> > At this moment there are no sub-national chapters so this notion is
> > academic.
>
> Didn't we just get a Hong Kong chapter?
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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effeietsanders at gmail

May 1, 2008, 6:09 AM

Post #10 of 140 (243 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

2008/5/1, Milos Rancic <millosh[at]gmail.com>:
> Proportional chapter seats would mean 2 Board members from WM DE :) --
> which leads us to the same situation like we have with en.wp at the
> project level. BTW, while I would like to see some WM DE members into
> the Board, I would like to see in the Board people from some other
> chapters, too. I think that better idea is to find the best possible
> people from the chapters by reaching consensus in inter chapter
> coordination. And I am very sure that chapters are able to make the
> best possible choices.
>

That very much depends. Say, we are only taking the number of members
into account, and 50 members = 1 vote (roundoff to above) then we get:

Agentina (50) - 1
Austria (?) - 1
Australia (?) - 1
Switzerland (64) - 2
Czech Republic (?) - 1
Germany (390) - 8
France (105) - 3
Hong Kong (?) - 1
Israel (12) - 1
Italy (168) - 4
Netherlands (80) - 2
Poland (62) - 2
Serbia (40) - 1
Sweden (116) - 3
Taiwan (30) - 1
United Kingdom (5) - 1

Total: 33

and definitely not two german seats :)

Please note that these data are coming from
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters and are generally
outdated by months.

A measure by Financial turnover sounds dangerous to me as that would
only enthusiast chapters to count everything as money, while the most
work is done by volunteers generally. I prefer to think in terms of
volunteers and activities over money.

BR, Lodewijk

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sebmol at gmail

May 1, 2008, 6:20 AM

Post #11 of 140 (244 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 3:09 PM, effe iets anders <effeietsanders[at]gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> A measure by Financial turnover sounds dangerous to me as that would
> only enthusiast chapters to count everything as money, while the most
> work is done by volunteers generally. I prefer to think in terms of
> volunteers and activities over money.
>

I find representation solely based on members or funding quite problematic.
The point of chapters is to advance the free sharing of the sum of all
knowledge. It's not to recruit members or funds (both not that hard to do
with a little dedication) for the sake of influence on the foundation's
board. Representation by activities would be interesting although I'm not
sure how one would objectively assess and compare the level of activity
between chapters. Perhaps a scoring system might be an option that accounts
for a multitude of things which would allow chapters to have share of the
vote based on how they decide to fulfill their purpose (e.g. fundraising,
membership, volunteer hours, cooperations, press management, lawsuits,
etc.).

Sebastian
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thomas.dalton at gmail

May 1, 2008, 6:31 AM

Post #12 of 140 (243 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

> A measure by Financial turnover sounds dangerous to me as that would
> only enthusiast chapters to count everything as money, while the most
> work is done by volunteers generally. I prefer to think in terms of
> volunteers and activities over money.

Good point. I can't think of a reliable way to measure activity,
though... turnover, while far from ideal, is at least easy to measure.
Some combination of measures would probably be good (every chapters
gets 1 vote automatically plus an additional 1 for every X members and
1 for every $Y of turnover).

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thomas.dalton at gmail

May 1, 2008, 6:33 AM

Post #13 of 140 (244 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

2008/5/1 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen[at]gmail.com>:
> Hoi,
> Maybe but as far as I know Hong Kong DOES have a separate jurisdiction.
> Thanks,
> GerardM

Depends what you mean by "jurisdiction", I guess. It's certainly not a
sovereign nation. You can draw jurisdictional lines at all kinds of
levels (no-one is suggesting the EU should have just one chapter, for
example, nor that every city should have one).

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cimonavaro at gmail

May 1, 2008, 6:59 AM

Post #14 of 140 (244 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> At this moment there are no sub-national chapters so this notion is
>> academic.
>
> Didn't we just get a Hong Kong chapter?
>


Didn't they get the Pennsylvania chapter operational yet?

Yours;

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

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wknight8111 at gmail

May 1, 2008, 7:06 AM

Post #15 of 140 (244 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
> Didn't they get the Pennsylvania chapter operational yet?

No, it's stalled. The chapcom doesn't yet have a way to deal with US
chapters. There are several complicating factors that have been
difficult to work around. Until the issue is resolved by the
board/chapcom, all US chapters are stalled.

--Andrew Whitworth

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birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 1, 2008, 7:51 AM

Post #16 of 140 (244 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

--- On Thu, 5/1/08, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen[at]gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Thursday, May 1, 2008, 7:33 AM

> At this moment there are no sub-national chapters so this
> notion is
> academic. It would make sense to have a US chapter in the
> first place. When
> a particular chapter has proven itself, it makes sense to
> give it more
> influence. The German chapter is well organised and has a
> lot of experience.
> I would rate their contribution higher then a newly created
> chapter.
>
> It is about getting the job done and get a decent job done.
> If it is only
> about power, then I think this whole notion stinks.


The US sub-national issue is not about power but logistics. One national chapter will never self-organize in the US. All the incentives to do so (tax-deductabilty, legal support, press contacts) have been "stolen" by the WMF. So if WMF is going to declare that the US must have one national chapter (or begin with one) they must organize it for the US or it will never happen. I am not sure which of those outcomes is more embarassing for the people who believe chapters are important.

Sub-national chapters in the US are still capable of self-organizing because of there is incentive to do something local with WMF. But no-one in the US percieves the whole nation as "local". I doubt there would actually be one per state, but certainly some states like Texas would have one while others might be regional like New England. However I cannot see Wikimedians in the US getting together and forming a national chapter. There is simply no benefit to the US Wikimedians for having a US national chapter.

Birgitte SB


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zvandijk at googlemail

May 1, 2008, 8:13 AM

Post #17 of 140 (245 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

Sorry, I still do not understand why there cannot be a US Chapter. It
would be useful to make clear that WMF is not an US American
organization by character, but only by legal status. An US chapter
would also take away the concern that US Americans cannot take part in
the chapter seats elections.
An US Chapter could organize an annual convention and take over the
press contacts from WMF related to US media. It could raise money by
asking a member's fee.
Ziko



2008/5/1 Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb[at]yahoo.com>:
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 5/1/08, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen[at]gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming
> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Date: Thursday, May 1, 2008, 7:33 AM
>
>
> > At this moment there are no sub-national chapters so this
> > notion is
> > academic. It would make sense to have a US chapter in the
> > first place. When
> > a particular chapter has proven itself, it makes sense to
> > give it more
> > influence. The German chapter is well organised and has a
> > lot of experience.
> > I would rate their contribution higher then a newly created
> > chapter.
> >
> > It is about getting the job done and get a decent job done.
> > If it is only
> > about power, then I think this whole notion stinks.
>
>
> The US sub-national issue is not about power but logistics. One national chapter will never self-organize in the US. All the incentives to do so (tax-deductabilty, legal support, press contacts) have been "stolen" by the WMF. So if WMF is going to declare that the US must have one national chapter (or begin with one) they must organize it for the US or it will never happen. I am not sure which of those outcomes is more embarassing for the people who believe chapters are important.
>
> Sub-national chapters in the US are still capable of self-organizing because of there is incentive to do something local with WMF. But no-one in the US percieves the whole nation as "local". I doubt there would actually be one per state, but certainly some states like Texas would have one while others might be regional like New England. However I cannot see Wikimedians in the US getting together and forming a national chapter. There is simply no benefit to the US Wikimedians for having a US national chapter.
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
>
>
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>



--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde

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birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 1, 2008, 8:36 AM

Post #18 of 140 (240 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

Because there is not the incentive to create this. Yes a US chapter *could* take on a press role *if* it existed. But since the WMF staff handle all US press issues there is no pressure to create an organization to handle press issues. Substitute press for legal or tax-deduction or any other issues chapter are created to handle.

I am not saying it is impossible for a US national chapter to exist. But it will not be created through grass-roots self-organization as was the case for other chapters. The WMF looks foolish to sit on their hands and wait for it to form. And WMF is not credible when they collect US tax-deductible money, solicit US press, etc. and then say US Wikimedians have the same opportunity to create a national chapter as everyone else if they want to participate in chapter stuff. The honest options are a) WMF staff organize a US national chapter or b) Chapter committee approves US subnational chapter where there is grass-roots activity.

BTW I am not really bent out of shape over the suffrage issue or crying disenfranchisement over this. In my eyes, this just about the credibility of the idea that chapters are a pervasive and key part of the whole organization. Personally I think it is still up in the air whether chapters are generaly important actors or if they are basically Wikimedia fan clubs. Obviously the German one has proven that a strong chapter is a great thing. But I am not convinced that we can expect most chapters to be strong ones and the German experience might be a fluke.


Birgitte SB



--- On Thu, 5/1/08, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk[at]googlemail.com> wrote:

> From: Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk[at]googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming
> To: birgitte_sb[at]yahoo.com, "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Thursday, May 1, 2008, 10:13 AM
> Sorry, I still do not understand why there cannot be a US
> Chapter. It
> would be useful to make clear that WMF is not an US
> American
> organization by character, but only by legal status. An US
> chapter
> would also take away the concern that US Americans cannot
> take part in
> the chapter seats elections.
> An US Chapter could organize an annual convention and take
> over the
> press contacts from WMF related to US media. It could raise
> money by
> asking a member's fee.
> Ziko
>
>
>
> 2008/5/1 Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb[at]yahoo.com>:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 5/1/08, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen[at]gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Chapter-selected
> Board seats - brainstorming
> > > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing
> List" <foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > Date: Thursday, May 1, 2008, 7:33 AM
> >
> >
> > > At this moment there are no sub-national
> chapters so this
> > > notion is
> > > academic. It would make sense to have a US
> chapter in the
> > > first place. When
> > > a particular chapter has proven itself, it makes
> sense to
> > > give it more
> > > influence. The German chapter is well organised
> and has a
> > > lot of experience.
> > > I would rate their contribution higher then a
> newly created
> > > chapter.
> > >
> > > It is about getting the job done and get a
> decent job done.
> > > If it is only
> > > about power, then I think this whole notion
> stinks.
> >
> >
> > The US sub-national issue is not about power but
> logistics. One national chapter will never self-organize
> in the US. All the incentives to do so (tax-deductabilty,
> legal support, press contacts) have been "stolen"
> by the WMF. So if WMF is going to declare that the US must
> have one national chapter (or begin with one) they must
> organize it for the US or it will never happen. I am not
> sure which of those outcomes is more embarassing for the
> people who believe chapters are important.
> >
> > Sub-national chapters in the US are still capable of
> self-organizing because of there is incentive to do
> something local with WMF. But no-one in the US percieves
> the whole nation as "local". I doubt there would
> actually be one per state, but certainly some states like
> Texas would have one while others might be regional like
> New England. However I cannot see Wikimedians in the US
> getting together and forming a national chapter. There is
> simply no benefit to the US Wikimedians for having a US
> national chapter.
> >
> > Birgitte SB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ziko van Dijk
> NL-Silvolde
>
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swatjester at gmail

May 1, 2008, 9:15 AM

Post #19 of 140 (240 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

Don't we have a Philadelphia or a Pennsylvania chapter too?

-Dan
On May 1, 2008, at 8:33 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
> So far a chapter was created per jurisdiction; as the law of the
> Netherlands
> is different from the law in Germany it is best to have one
> organisation set
> up in this way if you want to make use of tax deduction and the like.
>
> At this moment there are no sub-national chapters so this notion is
> academic. It would make sense to have a US chapter in the first
> place. When
> a particular chapter has proven itself, it makes sense to give it more
> influence. The German chapter is well organised and has a lot of
> experience.
> I would rate their contribution higher then a newly created chapter.
>
> It is about getting the job done and get a decent job done. If it is
> only
> about power, then I think this whole notion stinks.
>
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Dalton
> <thomas.dalton[at]gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> 2008/5/1 effe iets anders <effeietsanders[at]gmail.com>:
>>> If we consider the chapter seats to be semi-community seats, I think
>>> it makes sense to bring in some kind of relation with either the
>>> number of members, or even better (but harder to regulate) the
>>> activity of a chapter. There are a lot of chapters, and I think it
>>> makes sense that only "active" chapters should have a say in this.
>>> Otherwise that would only attract people to get a chapter just to be
>>> able to vote. I think that is something to consider.
>>
>> I agree, some kind of proportionality is probably required. If it's
>> one-chapter-one-vote then we also have issues with sub-national
>> chapters - should they get one vote per country or one vote per
>> chapter? I think it would be best to keep it proportional by some
>> measure. Financial turnover might be better than membership - it's
>> not
>> so easy to pad out with inactive members.
>>
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mbimmler at gmail

May 1, 2008, 9:46 AM

Post #20 of 140 (239 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:15 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't we have a Philadelphia or a Pennsylvania chapter too?
>

Not yet, though these are in a planning phase. US chapters are on hold
pending some principal recommendations by the ChapCom and decisions by
the board.

Michael


--
Michael Bimmler
mbimmler[at]gmail.com

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swatjester at gmail

May 1, 2008, 10:12 AM

Post #21 of 140 (240 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

I see. Well on that note, can I announce the start of a working group
for the development of a DC/Baltimore metropolitan area chapter. Both
Wikimedians from the DC area as well as those with chapters experience
are invited to help out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Swatjester/WMF_DC

-Dan
On May 1, 2008, at 12:46 PM, Michael Bimmler wrote:

> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:15 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester[at]gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Don't we have a Philadelphia or a Pennsylvania chapter too?
>>
>
> Not yet, though these are in a planning phase. US chapters are on hold
> pending some principal recommendations by the ChapCom and decisions by
> the board.
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Michael Bimmler
> mbimmler[at]gmail.com
>
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> foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org
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wknight8111 at gmail

May 1, 2008, 10:17 AM

Post #22 of 140 (240 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am not saying it is impossible for a US national chapter to exist. But it will not be created through grass-roots self-organization as was the case for other chapters. The WMF looks foolish to sit on their hands and wait for it to form. And WMF is not credible when they collect US tax-deductible money, solicit US press, etc. and then say US Wikimedians have the same opportunity to create a national chapter as everyone else if they want to participate in chapter stuff. The honest options are a) WMF staff organize a US national chapter or b) Chapter committee approves US subnational chapter where there is grass-roots activity.

I disagree with this completely. Grass-roots organization is how the
US chapter(s) will form, it's the way things are currently
progressing. There are grass roots organizations, that I've heard of
(which may not be a comprehensive list) starting in many places: New
York, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Oregon, California, Massachusetts, and
other places. Progress has been mostly stagnant in these groups for
many reasons, all of which are organizational failures on the part of
the WMF/Chapcom.

It is my personal estimate that there could be as many as 10 or 12
active subnational US chapters operational within a year if all
barriers to entry were removed. Of course, there are many logistical
issues to work out before those barriers can be removed completely.

--Andrew Whitworth

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birgitte_sb at yahoo

May 1, 2008, 10:23 AM

Post #23 of 140 (239 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

--- On Thu, 5/1/08, Andrew Whitworth <wknight8111[at]gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Andrew Whitworth <wknight8111[at]gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming
> To: birgitte_sb[at]yahoo.com, "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l[at]lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Thursday, May 1, 2008, 12:17 PM
> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Birgitte SB
> <birgitte_sb[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I am not saying it is impossible for a US national
> chapter to exist. But it will not be created through
> grass-roots self-organization as was the case for other
> chapters. The WMF looks foolish to sit on their hands and
> wait for it to form. And WMF is not credible when they
> collect US tax-deductible money, solicit US press, etc. and
> then say US Wikimedians have the same opportunity to create
> a national chapter as everyone else if they want to
> participate in chapter stuff. The honest options are a)
> WMF staff organize a US national chapter or b) Chapter
> committee approves US subnational chapter where there is
> grass-roots activity.
>
> I disagree with this completely. Grass-roots organization
> is how the
> US chapter(s) will form, it's the way things are
> currently
> progressing. There are grass roots organizations, that
> I've heard of
> (which may not be a comprehensive list) starting in many
> places: New
> York, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Oregon, California,
> Massachusetts, and
> other places. Progress has been mostly stagnant in these
> groups for
> many reasons, all of which are organizational failures on
> the part of
> the WMF/Chapcom.
>
> It is my personal estimate that there could be as many as
> 10 or 12
> active subnational US chapters operational within a year if
> all
> barriers to entry were removed. Of course, there are many
> logistical
> issues to work out before those barriers can be removed
> completely.
>

You misunderstood my message (probably because did a poor job qualifying it). I agree with you that if subnational *chapters* are allowed there will be the grassroots organization for them. I speaking of the grassroots organization of a national *chapter* if subnantional *chapters* are disalowed or required to be subchapters of an existiong national one.

Birgitte SB


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mgodwin at wikimedia

May 1, 2008, 10:35 AM

Post #24 of 140 (239 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

Birgitte writes:

> The US sub-national issue is not about power but logistics. One
> national chapter will never self-organize in the US. All the
> incentives to do so (tax-deductabilty, legal support, press
> contacts) have been "stolen" by the WMF.

So far as I know, there is no legal prohibition or hurdle that
prevents either a national chapter or a subnational chapter from
forming in the United States. Such a chapter certainly could organize
itself as a nonprofit, seek tax-deductible status, and so on.

I do wish you hadn't used the word "stolen," even if you mean for it
to be a metaphor.

I agree that there are geographic hurdles with regard to a U.S.
national chapter, but would stop short of predicting that a national
chapter will "never self-organize." Over the course of my career,
I've frequently been surprised at the willingness of large geographic
groups to self-organize.


--Mike






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daniwo59 at aol

May 1, 2008, 10:36 AM

Post #25 of 140 (239 views)
Permalink
Re: Chapter-selected Board seats - brainstorming [In reply to]

In a message dated 5/1/2008 1:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
swatjester[at]gmail.com writes:

I see. Well on that note, can I announce the start of a working group
for the development of a DC/Baltimore metropolitan area chapter. Both
Wikimedians from the DC area as well as those with chapters experience
are invited to help out.



What is the objective of this chapter? Is it to solicit tax-free donations
in the US? The WMF is already doing that with a professional, dedicated staff.
Is it to negotiate with local institutions over the release of content?
Again, the WMF is in the same country and is better equipped to do this. Is it to
provide a membership organization that will assume responsibility for
content? I doubt it. Is it to organize meetups and other social events? If so, then
why go to the trouble of incorporating just to have a realtime beer with your
online friends? Is it just to have a say in determining the chapter seats?
Seems like a lot of trouble for that.

While I do not oppose a US chapter or even a series of local chapters, it
would seem prudent to determine first what the purpose of the chapter is.

Danny



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