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Board-announcement: Board Restructuring

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saintonge at telus

Apr 28, 2008, 12:20 PM

Post #76 of 189 (464 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

Jason Safoutin wrote:
> Domas Mituzas
>
> wrote:
>
>>> Out of curiosity: If the entire Board and staff were put up to a
>>> public vote
>>> across /all/ projects (assuming good representation could be assured),
>>> I wonder how many of them would be with the WMF at the end of the day.
>>>
>> Unfortunately, not all aspects of running an organization are a
>> popularity contest.
>>
> Fortunately for us, the board is a popularity contest. And whether the
> board likes it or not, we elected you.
Domas was not elected. He and Michael were appointed to fill temporary
vacancies, and it was stated then that they would need to stand for
election in July 2008. This does not personally reflect on either of
them as Board members; that much would have been clarified when that
election takes place.
> And those who were appointed have
> the same obligation as those elected and can face the same criticism as
> such. If we, the communities see you guys are not doing your job in the
> best interest of Wikimedia, then we have the right to say we think you
> guys should resign.
>
That's certainly the essence of free speech, but let's not be too quick
to assume that this is the solution that the entire community seeks.

> From what I see, the only board member doing anything around here, or
> making the slightest attempt to communicate with the communities as much
> as possible, is Florence. And what a surprise, her seat is up for grabs.
>
While it is easy to imagine her standing on a hill, arms raised holding
the entire outhouse above her head, one still needs to credit Domas and
Michael Snow for sticking their toes into the hole that was left when
the outhouse was raised.
> Like it or not board, you work for us. Not for yourselves. I think this
> is a wake up call and I think now the communities are sick of it, and
> not going totake it anymore.
>
In the vernacular. "Them's fightin' words." Robert Mugabe was quite
effective in ending white rule in Rhodesia, but beyond the revolution
one often needs to look for different skills.
> Sorry if this sound rude or confrontational, but it seems that this is
> the only way to get anyone's attention, who is on the board these days
> as they seem to only pay attention to whats said on here and on meta. So
> that being the case, it gets increasingly frustrating to have to be
> civil and not get anything in return. So please see where I am coming
> from, and the others who feel the same way.
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Community_petition
>
I don't plan to sign the petition, though I can't ignore the fact that
it sends a strong message. I still prefer to be putting positive
efforts into some variant of Wikicouncil. Without some kind of focussed
positive alternative it is difficult to imagine what the community can
possibly accomplish.

Ec

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cbrown1023.ml at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 12:39 PM

Post #77 of 189 (463 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Kwan Ting Chan <ktc [at] ktchan> wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 09:36 -0700, Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> > Unfortunately, we can't remove most of them. Maybe the Board should not have the power to modify bylaws.
>
> Erm, considering the Wikimedia Foundation does not have any members, can
> you tell me who you propose then that be given the rights to modify the
> Bylaws? The employees?
>

I was just about to say the same thing, KTC. Perhaps people should
re-read their comments before they post to the mailing list to see if
they *really* want them said and if they make sense.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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mgodwin at wikimedia

Apr 28, 2008, 1:04 PM

Post #78 of 189 (461 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

David Goodman writes:

> 3) make plain our total repugnance for officers of the foundation who
> talk about the people who create Wikipedia as not having or deserving
> the right to the running of the project.

I don't know of any officers of the Foundation who are dismissive of
the people who create Wikipedia. Both Board and staff regard the
volunteer community as essential. That is not the least of the
reasons this organization has chosen to have the community select a
majority of the Board members. That hasn't changed. At the same time,
the Board has attempted to address two weaknesses -- (1) integrating
the chapters more formally into the Board selection process, and (2)
filling out the Board with the kind of professional expertise the
Foundation and its projects need for the next stage of their
development.

The fact that the pre-existing bylaws referred to the chapters as part
of the Foundation's structure but gave no formal role to the chapters
in the selection of Board members has seemed anomalous to many people,
including me. If I can say so without seeming dismissive of some
complaints here, the Board's effort to restructure itself so that
chapters are properly recognized seems to me to be a positive
development.

--Mike

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geo.plrd at yahoo

Apr 28, 2008, 1:04 PM

Post #79 of 189 (461 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

I stand by my comment. Human nature says that when you give somebody the tools to write their own terms, they are more likely to use those tools for whatever is in their best interests.

----- Original Message ----
From: Casey Brown <cbrown1023.ml [at] gmail>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l [at] lists>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:39:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Board-announcement: Board Restructuring

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Kwan Ting Chan <ktc [at] ktchan> wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 09:36 -0700, Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
>� > Unfortunately, we can't remove most of them. Maybe the Board should not have the power to modify bylaws.
>
>� Erm, considering the Wikimedia Foundation does not have any members, can
>� you tell me who you propose then that be given the rights to modify the
>� Bylaws? The employees?
>

I was just about to say the same thing, KTC.� Perhaps people should
re-read their comments before they post to the mailing list to see if
they *really* want them said and if they make sense.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 1:28 PM

Post #80 of 189 (461 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

2008/4/28 Mike Godwin <mgodwin [at] wikimedia>:
>
> David Goodman writes:
>
> > 3) make plain our total repugnance for officers of the foundation who
> > talk about the people who create Wikipedia as not having or deserving
> > the right to the running of the project.
>
> I don't know of any officers of the Foundation who are dismissive of
> the people who create Wikipedia. Both Board and staff regard the
> volunteer community as essential.

I agree - perhaps David is referring to Brad Patrick, who is a
*former* officer stating those views. The current staff and trustees,
while not always meeting the standards we expect of them (although
mostly, they do - people just don't see the need to comment much in
those cases), do seem to at least have their hearts in the right
place.

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millosh at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 2:24 PM

Post #81 of 189 (463 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Mike Godwin <mgodwin [at] wikimedia> wrote:
> The fact that the pre-existing bylaws referred to the chapters as part
> of the Foundation's structure but gave no formal role to the chapters
> in the selection of Board members has seemed anomalous to many people,
> including me. If I can say so without seeming dismissive of some
> complaints here, the Board's effort to restructure itself so that
> chapters are properly recognized seems to me to be a positive
> development.

BTW, did any of you got an idea that some chapters (especially the
German one) are able to delegate expert members of the Board? Which
would imply that there may be a little bit more community seats at the
Board?

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lars at aronsson

Apr 28, 2008, 2:35 PM

Post #82 of 189 (458 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

David Goodman wrote:

> 3) make plain our total repugnance for officers of the
> foundation who talk about the people who create Wikipedia as
> not having or deserving the right to the running of the
> project.

The people who create Wikipedia *do* run the projects, that is,
they run Wikipedia. What they don't run is the Foundation or its
board of trustees. I'm surprised when I hear people on this list
suggest that the community can only get its voice heard every two
years, when we're in fact editing Wikipedia every day, including
the wiki pages that constitute its policies. The volunteer
community also writes the software that is used.

> 4) "Self-selecting fiduciary boards" are a well established way
> of preventing organisations from reflecting the will of their
> actual constituency.

This was discussed already in 2003 when Jimbo set up the Wikimedia
Foundation as it now is, rather than as a "democratic" membership
organization. At the time, the opposition was voiced most
strongly among the Germans, and one year later they founded their
"verein" (membership association), Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.,
that became the role model for how to organize a chapter.

However, still today WM-DE has only about 400 members, which is
far fewer than the volunteer community in that country. The idea,
that all Wikipedia contributors should want to have a say in a
democratic fashion, turned out to be little more than a beautiful
dream. There are some who want this, and they are free to join
the chapter, but they are a minority. Shock and horror, even when
they are given the opportunity, most contributors seem happy to
have no formal influence at all. This could be taken as an
indication that Jimbo was right in 2003. If you claim that people
feel left out on a large scale, this is something you need to
prove. Because Germany is proof of the opposite.

Most countries have yet to organize chapters. Nothing stops them
from doing so, as far as I know, but they don't seem to be in any
hurry. Instead of getting themselves organized, some people cry
out on this list that the WMF board of trustees should do the work
for them. This is a great shame and a waste of time. Democracy
can only grow from below, never be given from above.

Board elections, volunteer councils, chapter seats, or not. They
are only decoration. The WMF was incorporated as something else
than a membership organization. They keep the servers running and
promote free knowledge. I think they do a pretty good job. But
they're not a membership organization. If you want one, you need
to create it yourself. Who's stopping you?

Background: I'm user:LA2. I was present when WM-DE was founded in
Berlin in 2004, but never joined. In 2007 I helped organize the
Swedish chapter and was elected to its board. I'm posting to this
list as an individual.

--
Lars Aronsson (lars [at] aronsson)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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cimonavaro at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 3:01 PM

Post #83 of 189 (461 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Jason Safoutin wrote:

<elide some pugilistic and scatological metaphors>

>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Community_petition
>>
> I don't plan to sign the petition, though I can't ignore the fact that
> it sends a strong message. I still prefer to be putting positive
> efforts into some variant of Wikicouncil. Without some kind of focussed
> positive alternative it is difficult to imagine what the community can
> possibly accomplish.

*shakes head*

Me neither. Personally I think it would have been better that if the
board was displeased with the result of the exploratory body it itself
put in motion, it should have simply entirely discarded its suggestions
and instituted a completely different kind of body (one of its own
liking), rather than punting the ball back into the community to work
at, without any bond with the Board of Trustees whatsoever. To me that
is the action of a fearful, inward turning Board. That said, if some
one wants my support in any shape or form for a council that has to
*earn* its standing by its own actions, I am at their service.

Yours in Wikimedia;

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, AKA. Cimon Avaro

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wikimail at inbox

Apr 28, 2008, 3:02 PM

Post #84 of 189 (460 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Brad Patrick <bradp.wmf [at] gmail> wrote:
> It would be best for those critical of the Board (and feeling that the
> community is the most important ideal) to remember that whether you like it
> or not, agree with it or not, or would have selected an alternative reality
> or not, it is still the case that the Board is that which governs the
> Wikimedia Foundation, a US corporation, and is responsible for the ownership
> of its assets (servers, etc.) and has a legal, fiduciary obligation to act
> in its best interests. The Board members are themselves obligated under the
> law to act in the best interests of the Foundation. That as a matter of
> convention means giving due regard to "the community" whatever that term
> means, but the fact that the Board allows elections to put people up for
> Board positions in no way whatsoever gives "the community" an *entitlement*
> to that process or results. As is oft-repeated, WMF is not a membership
> organization.
>
> Within the spirit of civil discourse, to those who are feeling frustrated
> and demanding action, I submit - "so what are you going to do about it?" I
> suggest you be pragmatic. You do not have any means of grabbing the reins
> of power from the Board, and you don't have any entitlement to anything
> except your ability to participate in a project, if you choose, a chapter,
> if you choose, or to speak up in some forum. You don't have a "right" to
> vote on anything, and the Board could just as easily have a contest than an
> election to fill Board seats.
>

Florence, I believe this post goes a long way toward addressing your
surprise at the relative lack of reaction to this proposal.

Remember back when membership was taken away, and the line was that
membership was only a formality that didn't matter? How quickly the
tune has changed.

I wonder, is Brad speaking here on behalf of the Foundation? If not,
and the foundation intends to maintain its "common voice", I suggest
you get Brad put on moderation and/or ask him to refrain from such
insulting comments in the future.

Or am I the only one insulted by this rant?

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philippebeaudette at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 3:09 PM

Post #85 of 189 (460 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Anthony" <wikimail [at] inbox>

> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Brad Patrick <bradp.wmf [at] gmail>
> wrote:
>> It would be best for those critical of the Board (and feeling that the
>> community is the most important ideal) to remember that whether you like
>> it
>> or not, agree with it or not, or would have selected an alternative
>> reality
>> or not, it is still the case that the Board is that which governs the
>> Wikimedia Foundation, a US corporation, and is responsible for the
>> ownership
>> of its assets (servers, etc.) and has a legal, fiduciary obligation to
>> act
>> in its best interests. The Board members are themselves obligated under
>> the
>> law to act in the best interests of the Foundation. That as a matter of
>> convention means giving due regard to "the community" whatever that term
>> means, but the fact that the Board allows elections to put people up for
>> Board positions in no way whatsoever gives "the community" an
>> *entitlement*
>> to that process or results. As is oft-repeated, WMF is not a membership
>> organization.
>>
>> Within the spirit of civil discourse, to those who are feeling
>> frustrated
>> and demanding action, I submit - "so what are you going to do about it?"
>> I
>> suggest you be pragmatic. You do not have any means of grabbing the
>> reins
>> of power from the Board, and you don't have any entitlement to anything
>> except your ability to participate in a project, if you choose, a
>> chapter,
>> if you choose, or to speak up in some forum. You don't have a "right"
>> to
>> vote on anything, and the Board could just as easily have a contest than
>> an
>> election to fill Board seats.
>>
>
> Florence, I believe this post goes a long way toward addressing your
> surprise at the relative lack of reaction to this proposal.
>
> Remember back when membership was taken away, and the line was that
> membership was only a formality that didn't matter? How quickly the
> tune has changed.
>
> I wonder, is Brad speaking here on behalf of the Foundation? If not,
> and the foundation intends to maintain its "common voice", I suggest
> you get Brad put on moderation and/or ask him to refrain from such
> insulting comments in the future.
>
> Or am I the only one insulted by this rant?
>

Uhm... I'm not sure that Brad could, in fact, speak for the Foundation,
given that he resigned over a year ago.

Philippe

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cbrown1023.ml at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 3:09 PM

Post #86 of 189 (461 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:
> I wonder, is Brad speaking here on behalf of the Foundation? If not,
> and the foundation intends to maintain its "common voice", I suggest
> you get Brad put on moderation and/or ask him to refrain from such
> insulting comments in the future.

Er, how could Brad be speaking on behalf of the Foundation? He is no
longer an employee.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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cbrown1023.ml at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 3:10 PM

Post #87 of 189 (463 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

wikimail at inbox

Apr 28, 2008, 3:13 PM

Post #88 of 189 (460 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Casey Brown <cbrown1023.ml [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:
> > I wonder, is Brad speaking here on behalf of the Foundation? If not,
> > and the foundation intends to maintain its "common voice", I suggest
> > you get Brad put on moderation and/or ask him to refrain from such
> > insulting comments in the future.
>
> Er, how could Brad be speaking on behalf of the Foundation? He is no
> longer an employee.
>
Wow, sorry about that. I know Brad "resigned", I just got him
confused with someone else.

My apologies to everyone for *my* rant.

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Apr 28, 2008, 3:18 PM

Post #89 of 189 (460 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson> wrote:
> David Goodman wrote:
> > 4) "Self-selecting fiduciary boards" are a well established way
> > of preventing organisations from reflecting the will of their
> > actual constituency.
>
> This was discussed already in 2003 when Jimbo set up the Wikimedia
> Foundation as it now is, rather than as a "democratic" membership
> organization.

You may want to read the comment by Alex T. Roshuk at
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2007/07/who-cares-about-process.html
(and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alex756) for a different
history. According to the bylaws in 2003, when Jimbo set up the
Wikimedia Foundation, it was a membership organization.

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george.herbert at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 3:19 PM

Post #90 of 189 (460 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

I am somewhat perturbed by the reaction here.

Perhaps this was not the best approach for the Board to restructure
its membership, but to leap from that to the assumed bad faith a
number of participants here have expressed is highly disturbing.

This has not been an episode of healthy skepticism. I assume that
everyone has the overall projects' best interests in mind, but the
level of distrust is disturbing, and does not evidently stem primarily
or originally from the actual chapters select two of the board members
proposal.

Why has this been simmering off in the wings? What are people
actually upset about?

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert [at] gmail

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dgerard at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 3:54 PM

Post #91 of 189 (462 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

2008/4/28 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:
> Jason Safoutin wrote:
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Community_petition

> I don't plan to sign the petition, though I can't ignore the fact that
> it sends a strong message. I still prefer to be putting positive

Indeed it does. With signatories like Seth Finkelstein, it just needs
Daniel Brandt and Lir.

- d.

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gordon.joly at pobox

Apr 28, 2008, 4:08 PM

Post #92 of 189 (460 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

At 20:57 +0100 26/4/08, David Gerard wrote:
>2008/4/26 Bryan Tong Minh <bryan.tongminh [at] gmail>:
>
>> Have the details of this already been worked out? Are those two seats
>> divided via an election where every chapter has an X number of votes,
>> or is it a more consensus orientated process where all chapters
> > discuss together which two candidates are the best suited?
>
>
>It'll be a tricky one. e.g. WM-DE is an organisation with actual money
>and an employee, whereas WM-UK has existence and nothing much else.
>Let's assume "details to be worked out" :-)
>
>
- d.

WM-UK exists, that's true.

But when will it become something with any muscle? It has no
governance of its own, since it has no members?

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
gordon.joly [at] pobox///

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ktc at ktchan

Apr 28, 2008, 4:12 PM

Post #93 of 189 (460 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 00:08 +0100, Gordon Joly wrote:

> WM-UK exists, that's true.
>
> But when will it become something with any muscle? It has no
> governance of its own, since it has no members?

And until it start accepting members again, it won't have any
members.....

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine

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geo.plrd at yahoo

Apr 28, 2008, 4:39 PM

Post #94 of 189 (445 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

Mike, the new change has made it�so a majority is unelected.

----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Godwin <mgodwin [at] wikimedia>
To: foundation-l [at] lists
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:04:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Board-announcement: Board Restructuring

David Goodman writes:

> 3) make plain our total repugnance for officers of the foundation who
> talk about the people who create Wikipedia as not having or deserving
> the right to the running of the project.

I don't know of any officers of the Foundation who are dismissive of�
the people who create Wikipedia. Both Board and staff regard the�
volunteer community as essential.� That is not the least of the�
reasons this organization has chosen to have the community select a�
majority of the Board members. That hasn't changed. At the same time,�
the Board has attempted to address two weaknesses -- (1) integrating�
the chapters more formally into the Board selection process, and (2)�
filling out the Board with the kind of professional expertise the�
Foundation and its projects need for the next stage of their�
development.

The fact that the pre-existing bylaws referred to the chapters as part�
of the Foundation's structure but gave no formal role to the chapters�
in the selection of Board members has seemed anomalous to many people,�
including me. If I can say so without seeming dismissive of some�
complaints here, the Board's effort to restructure itself so that�
chapters are properly recognized seems to me to be a positive�
development.

--Mike

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geo.plrd at yahoo

Apr 28, 2008, 4:46 PM

Post #95 of 189 (443 views)
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Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

People are afraid that the Board is forgetting why it exists.

----- Original Message ----
From: George Herbert <george.herbert [at] gmail>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l [at] lists>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:19:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Board-announcement: Board Restructuring

I am somewhat perturbed by the reaction here.

Perhaps this was not the best approach for the Board to restructure
its membership, but to leap from that to the assumed bad faith a
number of participants here have expressed is highly disturbing.

This has not been an episode of healthy skepticism.� I assume that
everyone has the overall projects' best interests in mind, but the
level of distrust is disturbing, and does not evidently stem primarily
or originally from the actual chapters select two of the board members
proposal.

Why has this been simmering off in the wings?� What are people
actually upset about?

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert [at] gmail

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george.herbert at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 4:50 PM

Post #96 of 189 (443 views)
Permalink

Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

Yes, that's clear and evident from the discussion.

The question is - Why?

The reaction is out of proportion to the proposal.

-george william herbert

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd [at] yahoo> wrote:
> People are afraid that the Board is forgetting why it exists.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: George Herbert <george.herbert [at] gmail>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l [at] lists>
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:19:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Board-announcement: Board Restructuring
>
> I am somewhat perturbed by the reaction here.
>
> Perhaps this was not the best approach for the Board to restructure
> its membership, but to leap from that to the assumed bad faith a
> number of participants here have expressed is highly disturbing.
>
> This has not been an episode of healthy skepticism. I assume that
> everyone has the overall projects' best interests in mind, but the
> level of distrust is disturbing, and does not evidently stem primarily
> or originally from the actual chapters select two of the board members
> proposal.
>
> Why has this been simmering off in the wings? What are people
> actually upset about?
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herbert [at] gmail
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert [at] gmail

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geo.plrd at yahoo

Apr 28, 2008, 4:52 PM

Post #97 of 189 (443 views)
Permalink

Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

Thats lovely for anyone not in the US. Unfortunately, any US chapters are on hold until ChapCom defines the terms.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lars Aronsson <lars [at] aronsson>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l [at] lists>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:35:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Board-announcement: Board Restructuring

David Goodman wrote:

> 3) make plain our total repugnance for officers of the
>� � foundation who talk about the people who create Wikipedia as
>� � not having or deserving the right to the running of the
>� � project.

The people who create Wikipedia *do* run the projects, that is,
they run Wikipedia.� What they don't run is the Foundation or its
board of trustees.� I'm surprised when I hear people on this list
suggest that the community can only get its voice heard every two
years, when we're in fact editing Wikipedia every day, including
the wiki pages that constitute its policies.� The volunteer
community also writes the software that is used.

> 4) "Self-selecting fiduciary boards" are a well established way
>� � of preventing organisations from reflecting the will of their
>� � actual constituency.

This was discussed already in 2003 when Jimbo set up the Wikimedia
Foundation as it now is, rather than as a "democratic" membership
organization.� At the time, the opposition was voiced most
strongly among the Germans, and one year later they founded their
"verein" (membership association), Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.,
that became the role model for how to organize a chapter.

However, still today WM-DE has only about 400 members, which is
far fewer than the volunteer community in that country.� The idea,
that all Wikipedia contributors should want to have a say in a
democratic fashion, turned out to be little more than a beautiful
dream.� There are some who want this, and they are free to join
the chapter, but they are a minority.� Shock and horror, even when
they are given the opportunity, most contributors seem happy to
have no formal influence at all.� This could be taken as an
indication that Jimbo was right in 2003. If you claim that people
feel left out on a large scale, this is something you need to
prove.� Because Germany is proof of the opposite.

Most countries have yet to organize chapters.� Nothing stops them
from doing so, as far as I know, but they don't seem to be in any
hurry.� Instead of getting themselves organized, some people cry
out on this list that the WMF board of trustees should do the work
for them.� This is a great shame and a waste of time.� Democracy
can only grow from below, never be given from above.

Board elections, volunteer councils, chapter seats, or not.� They
are only decoration. The WMF was incorporated as something else
than a membership organization.� They keep the servers running and
promote free knowledge.� I think they do a pretty good job.� But
they're not a membership organization.� If you want one, you need
to create it yourself.� Who's stopping you?

Background: I'm user:LA2.� I was present when WM-DE was founded in
Berlin in 2004, but never joined.� In 2007 I helped organize the
Swedish chapter and was elected to its board.� I'm posting to this
list as an individual.

--
� Lars Aronsson (lars [at] aronsson)
� Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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geo.plrd at yahoo

Apr 28, 2008, 4:57 PM

Post #98 of 189 (443 views)
Permalink

Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

First, the Board sent the ball on Wikicouncil back to the Community, then the Board made community elected seats a minority.
Because of our principles, we attract a lot of people who are suspicious of authoritarian structures. This move seems kind of authoritarian.

----- Original Message ----
From: George Herbert <george.herbert [at] gmail>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l [at] lists>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:50:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Board-announcement: Board Restructuring

Yes, that's clear and evident from the discussion.

The question is - Why?

The reaction is out of proportion to the proposal.

-george william herbert

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd [at] yahoo> wrote:
> People are afraid that the Board is forgetting why it exists.
>
>
>
>
>� ----- Original Message ----
>� From: George Herbert <george.herbert [at] gmail>
>� To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l [at] lists>
>� Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:19:02 PM
>� Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Board-announcement: Board Restructuring
>
>� I am somewhat perturbed by the reaction here.
>
>� Perhaps this was not the best approach for the Board to restructure
>� its membership, but to leap from that to the assumed bad faith a
>� number of participants here have expressed is highly disturbing.
>
>� This has not been an episode of healthy skepticism.� I assume that
>� everyone has the overall projects' best interests in mind, but the
>� level of distrust is disturbing, and does not evidently stem primarily
>� or originally from the actual chapters select two of the board members
>� proposal.
>
>� Why has this been simmering off in the wings?� What are people
>� actually upset about?
>
>
>� --
>� -george william herbert
>� george.herbert [at] gmail
>
>
>
>� _______________________________________________
>� foundation-l mailing list
>� foundation-l [at] lists
>� Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>� � � ____________________________________________________________________________________
>� Be a better friend, newshound, and
>� know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.� Try it now.� http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>� _______________________________________________
>� foundation-l mailing list
>� foundation-l [at] lists
>� Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert [at] gmail

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ktc at ktchan

Apr 28, 2008, 4:57 PM

Post #99 of 189 (443 views)
Permalink

Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 16:39 -0700, Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> Mike, the new change has made it so a majority is unelected.

You are assuming the Chapters decide its 2 seats are filled with a
method other than some form of election, which may or may not be true.

The Board present the new structure as the holders of a majority of
seats to have come from the community (3 direct election, 2 chapters, &
Jimbo), not that the majority will be elected, which isn't the case even
currently.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine

Attachments:

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millosh at gmail

Apr 28, 2008, 5:24 PM

Post #100 of 189 (444 views)
Permalink

Re: Board-announcement: Board Restructuring [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 12:54 AM, David Gerard <dgerard [at] gmail> wrote:
> 2008/4/28 Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus>:
>
> > Jason Safoutin wrote:
> > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Community_petition
>
> > I don't plan to sign the petition, though I can't ignore the fact that
> > it sends a strong message. I still prefer to be putting positive
>
>
> Indeed it does. With signatories like Seth Finkelstein, it just needs
> Daniel Brandt and Lir.

Hm. It looks like you are ignoring the fact that the petition is
signed by significant en.wp contributors, too. As well as the fact
that this is a revolt led by people from en.wp.

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