Login | Register For Free | Help
Search for: (Advanced)

Mailing List Archive: Wikipedia: Foundation

Wiki work

 

 

Wikipedia foundation RSS feed   Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded


brian.mcneil at wikinewsie

Feb 26, 2008, 7:49 AM

Post #1 of 11 (1761 views)
Permalink
Wiki work

The following job vacancy popped up in my inbox about five minutes ago.



http://www.jobserve.com/IB283EBC2A38E592B.job



Why are these folks using confluence instead of MediaWiki?





Brian McNeil



P.S. good luck to anyone who knows confluence and applies.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


effeietsanders at gmail

Feb 26, 2008, 8:02 AM

Post #2 of 11 (1685 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

well, confluence *does* offer wysiwyg, in contrary to mediawiki...

2008/2/26, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil [at] wikinewsie>:
> The following job vacancy popped up in my inbox about five minutes ago.
>
>
>
> http://www.jobserve.com/IB283EBC2A38E592B.job
>
>
>
> Why are these folks using confluence instead of MediaWiki?
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian McNeil
>
>
>
> P.S. good luck to anyone who knows confluence and applies.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


dgerard at gmail

Feb 26, 2008, 8:41 AM

Post #3 of 11 (1684 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

On 26/02/2008, effe iets anders <effeietsanders [at] gmail> wrote:

> well, confluence *does* offer wysiwyg, in contrary to mediawiki...


Lack of good WYSIWYG in MediaWiki is a major problem for wider
acceptance of the software. This is a well-understood problem, if an
as yet unsolved one :-)

There are some WYSIWYG editors for MediaWiki, but they're not that
great beyond the basics of wikitext. Anything fancy is fraught with
difficulties.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIWYG_editor

Good WYSIWYG is mostly blocked on a good wikitext grammar. Steve
Bennett is leading the effort to write one on wikitext-l:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitext-l/

You can see work so far at:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Markup_spec/ANTLR

Once that's done, WYSIWYG editor writers won't have to try to
reverse-engineer wikitext themselves.


- d.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


dirk at riehle

Feb 26, 2008, 9:01 AM

Post #4 of 11 (1674 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

We did extensive work on an EBNF Grammar, XML Schema, and XSLT
transformations for wiki markup, see:

http://www.riehle.org/category/wiki-tech/

We are based on Wiki Creole, which is sufficient for our research
purposes. Going all the way to MediaWiki syntax is much harder...

(Wiki Creole by and large is a subset of MediaWiki markup.)

I'd be happy to share more of our experiences and contribute though.

Dirk

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 8:41 AM, David Gerard <dgerard [at] gmail> wrote:
> On 26/02/2008, effe iets anders <effeietsanders [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > well, confluence *does* offer wysiwyg, in contrary to mediawiki...
>
>
> Lack of good WYSIWYG in MediaWiki is a major problem for wider
> acceptance of the software. This is a well-understood problem, if an
> as yet unsolved one :-)
>
> There are some WYSIWYG editors for MediaWiki, but they're not that
> great beyond the basics of wikitext. Anything fancy is fraught with
> difficulties.
>
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIWYG_editor
>
> Good WYSIWYG is mostly blocked on a good wikitext grammar. Steve
> Bennett is leading the effort to write one on wikitext-l:
>
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitext-l/
>
> You can see work so far at:
>
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Markup_spec/ANTLR
>
> Once that's done, WYSIWYG editor writers won't have to try to
> reverse-engineer wikitext themselves.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Phone: +1 650 215 3459
Web: http://www.riehle.org

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


dirk at riehle

Feb 26, 2008, 9:03 AM

Post #5 of 11 (1672 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

Confluence is "enterprise ready" i.e. has a lot of features that
MediaWiki doesn't have and that the public Internet community
typically doesn't care about.

Confluence is based on an open source wiki engine, www.snipsnap.org,
which unfortunately is stalling. (But is still one of the best engines
out there IMO.)

Cheers,
Dirk

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 8:41 AM, David Gerard <dgerard [at] gmail> wrote:
> On 26/02/2008, effe iets anders <effeietsanders [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > well, confluence *does* offer wysiwyg, in contrary to mediawiki...
>
>
> Lack of good WYSIWYG in MediaWiki is a major problem for wider
> acceptance of the software. This is a well-understood problem, if an
> as yet unsolved one :-)
>
> There are some WYSIWYG editors for MediaWiki, but they're not that
> great beyond the basics of wikitext. Anything fancy is fraught with
> difficulties.
>
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIWYG_editor
>
> Good WYSIWYG is mostly blocked on a good wikitext grammar. Steve
> Bennett is leading the effort to write one on wikitext-l:
>
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitext-l/
>
> You can see work so far at:
>
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Markup_spec/ANTLR
>
> Once that's done, WYSIWYG editor writers won't have to try to
> reverse-engineer wikitext themselves.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Phone: +1 650 215 3459
Web: http://www.riehle.org

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


dgerard at gmail

Feb 26, 2008, 1:36 PM

Post #6 of 11 (1675 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

On 26/02/2008, Dirk Riehle <dirk [at] riehle> wrote:

> We did extensive work on an EBNF Grammar, XML Schema, and XSLT
> transformations for wiki markup, see:
> http://www.riehle.org/category/wiki-tech/
> We are based on Wiki Creole, which is sufficient for our research
> purposes. Going all the way to MediaWiki syntax is much harder...
> (Wiki Creole by and large is a subset of MediaWiki markup.)


MediaWiki markup is difficult because a lot of it is the HTML produced
by a series of regular expressions. This doesn't lend itself to making
a grammar from.

If WikiCreole started out with a grammar, then a real WYSIWYG (What
You See Is What You Get) editor would be quite feasible, not just a
WYSIAYG (What You See Is All You Get) one ;-)


> I'd be happy to share more of our experiences and contribute though.


You should be quite interested in the wikitext-l archives and ANTLR
pages on mediawiki.org, then :-)

(This is getting way off-topic for foundation-l ...)


- d.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


dgerard at gmail

Feb 26, 2008, 1:37 PM

Post #7 of 11 (1677 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

On 26/02/2008, Dirk Riehle <dirk [at] riehle> wrote:

> Confluence is "enterprise ready" i.e. has a lot of features that
> MediaWiki doesn't have and that the public Internet community
> typically doesn't care about.


Or the users, in my experience - people don't actually seem to like
using it much, though it is of course vastly superior to no wiki at
all. "A wiki designed to be sold to people who get someone to print
their email for them."


- d.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


tstarling at wikimedia

Feb 26, 2008, 9:38 PM

Post #8 of 11 (1666 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

Dirk Riehle wrote:
> Confluence is "enterprise ready" i.e. has a lot of features that
> MediaWiki doesn't have and that the public Internet community
> typically doesn't care about.
>
> Confluence is based on an open source wiki engine, www.snipsnap.org,
> which unfortunately is stalling. (But is still one of the best engines
> out there IMO.)
>
> Cheers,
> Dirk

"Enterprise ready" is just a marketing term. It doesn't actually say
anything about what features it has and what features it doesn't have, and
lots of enterprises are using MediaWiki out of the box.

Which brings me to one big thing that Confluence has but MediaWiki
doesn't: a marketing team. Add to that a sales team and professional
support services, and you have a convincing case for any corporate executive.

MediaWiki really needs very little development work done in order to take
over the corporate world. But there is no support organisation to pay for
it, so it doesn't get done. With commercial support funding development,
MediaWiki could easily become the MySQL of wiki engines.

-- Tim Starling


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


innocentkiller at gmail

Feb 26, 2008, 11:13 PM

Post #9 of 11 (1663 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

Exactly. I've been managing our multiple-wiki install at my
employer for almost a year now. Several departments are
using them as an "internal whiteboard" if you will. I actually
was looking at a job recently that would've titled me as
a "Wiki Technology Consultant." I think this definitely
shows that wikis have a place in the corporate world and
the "Enterprise-ready" MediaWiki is just waiting on a
company to basically market the product, as Tim said.

-Chad

On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 12:38 AM, Tim Starling <tstarling [at] wikimedia> wrote:
> Dirk Riehle wrote:
> > Confluence is "enterprise ready" i.e. has a lot of features that
> > MediaWiki doesn't have and that the public Internet community
> > typically doesn't care about.
> >
> > Confluence is based on an open source wiki engine, www.snipsnap.org,
> > which unfortunately is stalling. (But is still one of the best engines
> > out there IMO.)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Dirk
>
> "Enterprise ready" is just a marketing term. It doesn't actually say
> anything about what features it has and what features it doesn't have, and
> lots of enterprises are using MediaWiki out of the box.
>
> Which brings me to one big thing that Confluence has but MediaWiki
> doesn't: a marketing team. Add to that a sales team and professional
> support services, and you have a convincing case for any corporate executive.
>
> MediaWiki really needs very little development work done in order to take
> over the corporate world. But there is no support organisation to pay for
> it, so it doesn't get done. With commercial support funding development,
> MediaWiki could easily become the MySQL of wiki engines.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


dirk at riehle

Feb 27, 2008, 5:33 PM

Post #10 of 11 (1650 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

I have no doubts that MediaWiki could be evolved rather quickly into a
wiki engine that plays well in the enterprise, i.e. appeals to the
corporate buyer. (There are a few features, like multi-instance
capabilities, that haven't been done well yet. I'm still waiting for
Wikia to release its code on this... hint hint.)

The biggest problem is that the GPL + the situation that main developers
can't be hired into a startup pretty much prevents the by now
"traditional" commercial open source model. So you can't be a MySQL
because you can't gain the rights to the software and play the MySQL
game. At the same time, because of the GPL, you can't be EnterpriseDB (a
commercialization of PostgreSQL).

Finally, there was a rather devastating report recently that showed that
there is much less support services revenue earned in open source than
you might think, hence making money by providing 24h support for a GPLed
project isn't lucrative either.

Too bad, if you ask me...

Dirk



Tim Starling wrote:
> Dirk Riehle wrote:
>
>> Confluence is "enterprise ready" i.e. has a lot of features that
>> MediaWiki doesn't have and that the public Internet community
>> typically doesn't care about.
>>
>> Confluence is based on an open source wiki engine, www.snipsnap.org,
>> which unfortunately is stalling. (But is still one of the best engines
>> out there IMO.)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dirk
>>
>
> "Enterprise ready" is just a marketing term. It doesn't actually say
> anything about what features it has and what features it doesn't have, and
> lots of enterprises are using MediaWiki out of the box.
>
> Which brings me to one big thing that Confluence has but MediaWiki
> doesn't: a marketing team. Add to that a sales team and professional
> support services, and you have a convincing case for any corporate executive.
>
> MediaWiki really needs very little development work done in order to take
> over the corporate world. But there is no support organisation to pay for
> it, so it doesn't get done. With commercial support funding development,
> MediaWiki could easily become the MySQL of wiki engines.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>

--
Phone: + 1 (650) 215 3459
Web: http://www.riehle.org



_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


beesley at gmail

Feb 27, 2008, 6:05 PM

Post #11 of 11 (1649 views)
Permalink
Re: Wiki work [In reply to]

On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Dirk Riehle <dirk [at] riehle> wrote:
> I have no doubts that MediaWiki could be evolved rather quickly into a
> wiki engine that plays well in the enterprise, i.e. appeals to the
> corporate buyer. (There are a few features, like multi-instance
> capabilities, that haven't been done well yet. I'm still waiting for
> Wikia to release its code on this... hint hint.)

It's not by Wikia, but http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Farmer
is an extension which can be used to run multiple instances.

Personally, I've found symlinks are enough and special extensions
aren't needed for this. See
<http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Wiki_family#Ultimate_minimalist_solution>.

Angela

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Wikipedia foundation RSS feed   Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded
 
 


Interested in having your list archived? Contact Gossamer Threads
 
  Web Applications & Managed Hosting Powered by Gossamer Threads Inc.