Mailing List Archive: Trac: Users

What is a unique tag?

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roger.oberholtzer at gmail

Sep 13, 2009, 11:49 PM

Post #1 of 14 (522 views)
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What is a unique tag?

Hello

I asked this a while back, but no one seemed to have any information to
add. So I will ask again.

I have installed the TagsPlugin. Specifically, I have been looking at
the TagCloud macro. The macro does indeed make the usual tag cloud.
However, it seems to miss a couple of important distinctions:

1) Punctuation is included in tags: so, these are considered different
tags:

here

here;

here,

here:

You get the idea. Obviously these are the same tag.

2) Simple words, like 'the, 'it', 'if' and the like are included in the
cloud. I guess one could make the argument that all valid words are
potential tags. But I really do not think anyone is interested in the
strength of occurrence of such words.

Have I missed some obvious setting. I do not see anything on the
TagsPlugin web page that addresses this.

Anyone else using the TagCloud?

--
Roger Oberholtzer

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olemis at gmail

Sep 14, 2009, 5:47 AM

Post #2 of 14 (503 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:49 AM, Roger Oberholtzer
<roger.oberholtzer [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>
> Hello
>
> I asked this a while back, but no one seemed to have any information to
> add. So I will ask again.
>
> 2) Simple words, like 'the, 'it', 'if' and the like are included in the
> cloud. I guess one could make the argument that all valid words are
> potential tags. But I really do not think anyone is interested in the
> strength of occurrence of such words.
>

Seems to be related with the fact that whitespaces are not allowed in
keywords, so they get splitted ...

> Have I missed some obvious setting. I do not see anything on the
> TagsPlugin web page that addresses this.
>

... IMO not a TagsPlugin issue ...

--
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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roger.oberholtzer at gmail

Sep 14, 2009, 8:08 AM

Post #3 of 14 (499 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 07:47 -0500, Olemis Lang wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:49 AM, Roger Oberholtzer
> <roger.oberholtzer [at] gmail> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello
> >
> > I asked this a while back, but no one seemed to have any information to
> > add. So I will ask again.
> >
> > 2) Simple words, like 'the, 'it', 'if' and the like are included in the
> > cloud. I guess one could make the argument that all valid words are
> > potential tags. But I really do not think anyone is interested in the
> > strength of occurrence of such words.
> >
>
> Seems to be related with the fact that whitespaces are not allowed in
> keywords, so they get splitted ...

Um, are punctuation white space? If they were, then this would not be a
problem. To me, it looks like punctuation is not white space, and so is
made part of the word.Í„ I truly cannot see how that would ever work with
tags. Or, more specifically, with anything that generates tags
automatically.

Where do the tags that the TagsPlugin uses (especially for the TagCloud)
come from?

> > Have I missed some obvious setting. I do not see anything on the
> > TagsPlugin web page that addresses this.
> >
>
> ... IMO not a TagsPlugin issue ...

OK. Where might the problem be?

--
Roger Oberholtzer

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olemis at gmail

Sep 14, 2009, 8:25 AM

Post #4 of 14 (500 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Roger Oberholtzer
<roger.oberholtzer [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 07:47 -0500, Olemis Lang wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:49 AM, Roger Oberholtzer
>> <roger.oberholtzer [at] gmail> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello
>> >
>> > I asked this a while back, but no one seemed to have any information to
>> > add. So I will ask again.
>> >
>> > 2) Simple words, like 'the, 'it', 'if' and the like are included in the
>> > cloud. I guess one could make the argument that all valid words are
>> > potential tags. But I really do not think anyone is interested in the
>> > strength of occurrence of such words.
>> >
>>
>> Seems to be related with the fact that whitespaces are not allowed in
>> keywords, so they get splitted ...
>

Firstly I experience the same issues .

> Um, are punctuation white space?

No but if you specify `the it is in the here; but is it, here, the &
is in the it; here`

Then Trac splits that text (by discarding whitespaces ;o) and takes
the individual words as keywords; so you'll get back `here;` and `it;`
and, and ...

> If they were,

No, so I dont follow this ;o)

> Where do the tags that the TagsPlugin uses (especially for the TagCloud)
> come from?
>

Some people say that some aliens have introduced them inside eggs so
that they be born at the right time thus ensuring their total
domination of Trac-land ...

... but I've discovered (Nobel-prize is on the way ;o) that tags are
contributed by extensions, and in the specific case of Wiki pages and
tickets, they are exactly the keywords . So, if keywords are splitted
and parsed just like I mentionned before then the same results will be
propagated to the labels of the different tags.

>> > Have I missed some obvious setting. I do not see anything on the
>> > TagsPlugin web page that addresses this.
>> >
>>
>> ... IMO not a TagsPlugin issue ...
>
> OK. Where might the problem be?
>

IMO ... keywords parser in Trac core

--
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
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roger.oberholtzer at gmail

Sep 14, 2009, 9:52 AM

Post #5 of 14 (501 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 10:25 -0500, Olemis Lang wrote:

> Firstly I experience the same issues .

That is some sort of consolation. Glad to heat this, if you know what I
mean.

> > Um, are punctuation white space?
>
> No but if you specify `the it is in the here; but is it, here, the &
> is in the it; here`
>
> Then Trac splits that text (by discarding whitespaces ;o) and takes
> the individual words as keywords; so you'll get back `here;` and `it;`
> and, and ...
>
> > If they were,
>
> No, so I dont follow this ;o)

For the purpose of tags, whitespace should be extended (surely not a
complete list) to include '":;.,()[]{}!?

I know of no words that contain these characters. Sentences and phrases,
yes. Words, no. And tags refer to words, not sentences or phrases.

Since whitespace are the points at which items are split, and whitespace
is discarded:

here here;

would both evaluate to the tag:

here

I am guessing some of my whitespace list is already used for the purpose
of tags. Like the period and the comma. Or so it seems.

> > Where do the tags that the TagsPlugin uses (especially for the TagCloud)
> > come from?
> >
>
> Some people say that some aliens have introduced them inside eggs so
> that they be born at the right time thus ensuring their total
> domination of Trac-land ...
>
> ... but I've discovered (Nobel-prize is on the way ;o) that tags are
> contributed by extensions, and in the specific case of Wiki pages and
> tickets, they are exactly the keywords . So, if keywords are splitted
> and parsed just like I mentionned before then the same results will be
> propagated to the labels of the different tags.
>
> >> > Have I missed some obvious setting. I do not see anything on the
> >> > TagsPlugin web page that addresses this.
> >> >
> >>
> >> ... IMO not a TagsPlugin issue ...
> >
> > OK. Where might the problem be?
> >
>
> IMO ... keywords parser in Trac core

OK. So I guess the current behavior is integral to Trac's sanity and
functionality, and thus cannot be changed without destroying life as we
now know it. Too bad. A tag cloud would have been a nice thing.

--
Roger Oberholtzer

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khym at azeotrope

Sep 14, 2009, 10:26 AM

Post #6 of 14 (498 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Sep 14, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

> For the purpose of tags, whitespace should be extended (surely not a
> complete list) to include '":;.,()[]{}!?
>
> I know of no words that contain these characters. Sentences and
> phrases,
> yes. Words, no. And tags refer to words, not sentences or phrases.

Perhaps, but where have you configured TagsPlugin to get its tags
from? By default, tags come from the ticket's "keywords" field;
assuming you've left it at the default, the question is why are you
putting punctuation in the keywords field if you don't want them in
the tags. If you're not using the default setting, the question is if
the field you're getting the tags from is really the right place.
--
Name: Dave Huang | Mammal, mammal / their names are called /
INet: khym [at] azeotrope | they raise a paw / the bat, the cat /
FurryMUCK: Dahan | dolphin and dog / koala bear and hog -- TMBG
Dahan: Hani G Y+C 33 Y++ L+++ W- C++ T++ A+ E+ S++ V++ F- Q+++ P+ B+ PA
+ PL++

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olemis at gmail

Sep 14, 2009, 11:14 AM

Post #7 of 14 (501 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:26 PM, David Huang <khym [at] azeotrope> wrote:
>
> On Sep 14, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
>
>> For the purpose of tags, whitespace should be extended (surely not a
>> complete list) to include '":;.,()[]{}!?
>>
>> I know of no words that contain these characters. Sentences and
>> phrases,
>> yes. Words, no. And tags refer to words, not sentences or phrases.
>
> Perhaps, but where have you configured TagsPlugin to get its tags
> from? By default, tags come from the ticket's "keywords" field;
> assuming you've left it at the default, the question is why are you
> putting punctuation in the keywords field if you don't want them in
> the tags.

Well basicly because people expects tags containing whitespace and
delimited by punctuation marks (e.g. like Blogger ;o)

--
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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khym at azeotrope

Sep 14, 2009, 11:33 AM

Post #8 of 14 (498 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Sep 14, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Olemis Lang wrote:
> Well basicly because people expects tags containing whitespace and
> delimited by punctuation marks (e.g. like Blogger ;o)

Yes, but it doesn't seem like a huge deal to tell people to just use
spaces. But I agree that filtering out punctuation would be nice...
However, one of the other complaints was that the tag cloud included
common words like "the", "it", and "if," which makes it sound like
he's set a general description field (one that contains full
sentences) as a tag source—which doesn't sound right to me. At least
from my understanding, tags should be explicitly set by someone. If
you don't want "the" as a tag, don't include it in the tag list :)
--
Name: Dave Huang | Mammal, mammal / their names are called /
INet: khym [at] azeotrope | they raise a paw / the bat, the cat /
FurryMUCK: Dahan | dolphin and dog / koala bear and hog -- TMBG
Dahan: Hani G Y+C 33 Y++ L+++ W- C++ T++ A+ E+ S++ V++ F- Q+++ P+ B+ PA
+ PL++

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roger.oberholtzer at gmail

Sep 15, 2009, 12:01 AM

Post #9 of 14 (493 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 12:26 -0500, David Huang wrote:
>
> On Sep 14, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
>
> > For the purpose of tags, whitespace should be extended (surely not a
> > complete list) to include '":;.,()[]{}!?
> >
> > I know of no words that contain these characters. Sentences and
> > phrases,
> > yes. Words, no. And tags refer to words, not sentences or phrases.
>
> Perhaps, but where have you configured TagsPlugin to get its tags
> from? By default, tags come from the ticket's "keywords" field;
> assuming you've left it at the default, the question is why are you
> putting punctuation in the keywords field if you don't want them in
> the tags. If you're not using the default setting, the question is if
> the field you're getting the tags from is really the right place.

I get the tags from the summary and the keywords. This is reasonable.

If this is a problem for the plugin, then it should limit itself to the
rarefied world of tags. Since it allows ticket fields in general to be
used, it should then deal with punctuation.

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olaf.meeuwissen at avasys

Sep 15, 2009, 12:48 AM

Post #10 of 14 (494 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

Roger Oberholtzer <roger.oberholtzer [at] gmail> writes:

> On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 12:26 -0500, David Huang wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 14, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
>>
>> > For the purpose of tags, whitespace should be extended (surely not a
>> > complete list) to include '":;.,()[]{}!?
>> >
>> > I know of no words that contain these characters. Sentences and
>> > phrases,
>> > yes. Words, no. And tags refer to words, not sentences or phrases.
>>
>> Perhaps, but where have you configured TagsPlugin to get its tags
>> from? By default, tags come from the ticket's "keywords" field;
>> assuming you've left it at the default, the question is why are you
>> putting punctuation in the keywords field if you don't want them in
>> the tags. If you're not using the default setting, the question is if
>> the field you're getting the tags from is really the right place.
>
> I get the tags from the summary and the keywords. This is reasonable.

Only if you can safely assume a single language for all your tickets.
That may be true for your case but it certainly isn't for mine.
We run several trac instances with mixed Japanese/English tickets.

> If this is a problem for the plugin, then it should limit itself to the
> rarefied world of tags. Since it allows ticket fields in general to be
> used, it should then deal with punctuation.

What qualifies as punctuation in Japanese? In any other language? Can
the plugin make assumptions as to what language a ticket summary is in,
in general? Can it do so when it knows the ticket's character encoding?

Not necessarily saying it is a problem for the plugin, but it is most
certainly not trivial to ignore punctuation.

For that matter, splitting on whitespace sucks when you use Japanese
(which normally doesn't use whitespace). Splitting should be done on
word boundaries. Hopefully 0.12 will address at least some of these
issues for non-POSIX locales.

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2 FLOSS Engineer -- AVASYS Corporation
FSF Associate Member #1962 Help support software freedom
http://www.fsf.org/jf?referrer=1962

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roger.oberholtzer at gmail

Sep 15, 2009, 1:13 AM

Post #11 of 14 (498 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Tue, 2009-09-15 at 16:48 +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:

> For that matter, splitting on whitespace sucks when you use Japanese
> (which normally doesn't use whitespace). Splitting should be done on
> word boundaries. Hopefully 0.12 will address at least some of these
> issues for non-POSIX locales.

I am not doubting the complexity. Perhaps it could be as simple as a
configured parameter where one could add characters, beyond the ones
defined by the locale, that are to be treated as whitespace/punctuation.
If you are happy with the current result, just leave the list alone.

ANSI C defines ispunct(), which is locale-sensitive. Perhaps that is of
some use here. Is that also available in python?

As to Japanese, I am guessing that word boundaries at sentence
punctuation is ok. It is just spaces that are the problem.

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olaf.meeuwissen at avasys

Sep 15, 2009, 4:25 PM

Post #12 of 14 (480 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

Roger Oberholtzer <roger.oberholtzer [at] gmail> writes:

> On Tue, 2009-09-15 at 16:48 +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:
>
>> For that matter, splitting on whitespace sucks when you use Japanese
>> (which normally doesn't use whitespace). Splitting should be done on
>> word boundaries. Hopefully 0.12 will address at least some of these
>> issues for non-POSIX locales.
>
> I am not doubting the complexity. Perhaps it could be as simple as a
> configured parameter where one could add characters, beyond the ones
> defined by the locale, that are to be treated as whitespace/punctuation.
> If you are happy with the current result, just leave the list alone.
>
> ANSI C defines ispunct(), which is locale-sensitive. Perhaps that is of
> some use here. Is that also available in python?

That would be used on the server side so gets whatever locale the server
process was started under or configured to use. Any tickets that are
submitted may well be in a language that doesn't match that. Case in
point, our Trac instances use C/POSIX for their locale. Tickets are in
en_US/en_GB/ja_JP.

> As to Japanese, I am guessing that word boundaries at sentence
> punctuation is ok. It is just spaces that are the problem.

Are you talking about addressing the problem of splitting at word
boundaries here? Then yes, punctuation would indicate a boundary. But
that doesn't really help. Your two lines above would then result in a
whopping total of _three_ "words":

As to Japanese
I am guessing that word boundaries at sentence punctuation is ok
It is just spaces that are the problem

Mind you, end-of-line is _not_ necessarily a word boundary in Japanese.

Anyway, we're not using the ticket summary to harvest tags so it's not
that much of a problem. The area where it "hurts" most is in the wiki
where we don't get the links for free.

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2 FLOSS Engineer -- AVASYS Corporation
FSF Associate Member #1962 Help support software freedom
http://www.fsf.org/jf?referrer=1962

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roger.oberholtzer at gmail

Sep 15, 2009, 11:19 PM

Post #13 of 14 (479 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

On Wed, 2009-09-16 at 08:25 +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:

> > ANSI C defines ispunct(), which is locale-sensitive. Perhaps that is of
> > some use here. Is that also available in python?
>
> That would be used on the server side so gets whatever locale the server
> process was started under or configured to use. Any tickets that are
> submitted may well be in a language that doesn't match that. Case in
> point, our Trac instances use C/POSIX for their locale. Tickets are in
> en_US/en_GB/ja_JP.

Definitely server side, as that is the only config Trac has. I am
guessing the text is not identified as such in Trac? I am guessing it is
limited to the encoding, like UTF-8. This surely makes it more
complicated.

Is your Trac translated into Japanese (menus and all)? Or is it mixed
English / local? I am guessing the later.

Indeed a general solution would help.

> > As to Japanese, I am guessing that word boundaries at sentence
> > punctuation is ok. It is just spaces that are the problem.
>
> Are you talking about addressing the problem of splitting at word
> boundaries here? Then yes, punctuation would indicate a boundary. But
> that doesn't really help. Your two lines above would then result in a
> whopping total of _three_ "words":

I was. I meant that my issue would not improve or make worse languages
like Japanese.

>
> As to Japanese
> I am guessing that word boundaries at sentence punctuation is ok
> It is just spaces that are the problem
>
> Mind you, end-of-line is _not_ necessarily a word boundary in Japanese.

That is just an example of <part1><whitespace><part1>.

> Anyway, we're not using the ticket summary to harvest tags so it's not
> that much of a problem. The area where it "hurts" most is in the wiki
> where we don't get the links for free.
>
> Hope this helps,

I guess. I was really hoping to generate a tag cloud based on all words
used in selected fields, not just those in a safe keyword context.

And we did not even discuss the uselessness of having words like 'a',
'the', 'it' and such included. It all stems from allowing searching
other than the keyword part of things.

I guess I will adapt. My python programming is not what it should be.
Now, if this had been written in Tcl...

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olaf.meeuwissen at avasys

Sep 16, 2009, 12:19 AM

Post #14 of 14 (480 views)
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Re: What is a unique tag? [In reply to]

Roger Oberholtzer <roger.oberholtzer [at] gmail> writes:

> On Wed, 2009-09-16 at 08:25 +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:
>
>> > ANSI C defines ispunct(), which is locale-sensitive. Perhaps that is of
>> > some use here. Is that also available in python?
>>
>> That would be used on the server side so gets whatever locale the server
>> process was started under or configured to use. Any tickets that are
>> submitted may well be in a language that doesn't match that. Case in
>> point, our Trac instances use C/POSIX for their locale. Tickets are in
>> en_US/en_GB/ja_JP.
>
> Definitely server side, as that is the only config Trac has. I am
> guessing the text is not identified as such in Trac? I am guessing it is
> limited to the encoding, like UTF-8. This surely makes it more
> complicated.
>
> Is your Trac translated into Japanese (menus and all)?

Awaiting 0.12 eagerly ;-) Menus are in English. All default Trac wiki
pages are removed. Instead I point the various instances at a "central"
Trac wiki page location for those removed pages. The "central" location
serves content negotiated wiki pages (via TracWikiNegotiationPlugin).
Awaiting newhelp eagerly too ;-)

> Or is it mixed English / local? I am guessing the later.

A very mixed setup. Wiki pages are generally in a single language.
Important pages may be translated (but keeping stuff in sync is a
pain). Tickets are typically mixed English/Japanese.

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2 FLOSS Engineer -- AVASYS Corporation
FSF Associate Member #1962 Help support software freedom
http://www.fsf.org/jf?referrer=1962

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