Mailing List Archive: Trac: Users

Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting?

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leon at opensourcestrategies

Jan 8, 2007, 10:51 AM

Post #1 of 17 (5354 views)
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Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting?

Hi all,

I was wondering if it's possible to use plain text input in the trac
ticket description field instead of wiki formatting? The motivation
for this is to present a simpler input format for users that might not
be inclined to learn wiki formatting.

- Leon

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gmcgrath815 at gmail

Jan 8, 2007, 11:10 AM

Post #2 of 17 (5262 views)
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Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Really the wiki formatting is only there to make things look pretty if they
just type it'll come out as plain text (or at least it 'should'). Just
reinforce the use of the 'preview and confirm' practice.

-----Original Message-----
From: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com [mailto:trac-users[at]googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of leon[at]opensourcestrategies.com
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:52 PM
To: Trac Users
Subject: [Trac] Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting?

Hi all,

I was wondering if it's possible to use plain text input in the trac ticket
description field instead of wiki formatting? The motivation for this is to
present a simpler input format for users that might not be inclined to learn
wiki formatting.

- Leon

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leon at opensourcestrategies

Jan 8, 2007, 11:33 AM

Post #3 of 17 (5266 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Hi again. :-)

It doesn't quite match what the user types in. The specific issue my
boss had was when he was typing in several lines like follows:

Line 1.
Line 2.
Line 3.

This isn't an itemized list, just several lines intended to be separated
by a CR. The wiki formatting put them all into one paragraph:

Line1. Line2. Line3.

Whereas in a standard <pre> text, it would come out exactly as the user
typed.

For instance, see the sourceforge issue description boxes. Those use
plain text formatting and what you type is what you get.

I personally don't mind the wiki formatting as plain text input, but one
day my boss typed in a ticket for me to do and when I read it, the lines
were jumbled together and created a communication issue.

- Leon

Garrett McGrath wrote:
>
> Really the wiki formatting is only there to make things look pretty if
> they
> just type it'll come out as plain text (or at least it 'should'). Just
> reinforce the use of the 'preview and confirm' practice.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com [mailto:trac-users[at]googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of leon[at]opensourcestrategies.com
> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:52 PM
> To: Trac Users
> Subject: [Trac] Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting?
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I was wondering if it's possible to use plain text input in the trac
> ticket
> description field instead of wiki formatting? The motivation for this
> is to
> present a simpler input format for users that might not be inclined to
> learn
> wiki formatting.
>
> - Leon
>
>
>
>
> >

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gmcgrath815 at gmail

Jan 8, 2007, 12:07 PM

Post #4 of 17 (5316 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Ah, well I guess technically this is a wiki formatting thing but if you just
put a second line in like:

Line 1.

Line 2.

Line 3.

It'll work a bit better.

-----Original Message-----
From: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com [mailto:trac-users[at]googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Leon Torres
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 2:33 PM
To: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com
Subject: [Trac] Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting?

Hi again. :-)

It doesn't quite match what the user types in. The specific issue my boss
had was when he was typing in several lines like follows:

Line 1.
Line 2.
Line 3.

This isn't an itemized list, just several lines intended to be separated by
a CR. The wiki formatting put them all into one paragraph:

Line1. Line2. Line3.

Whereas in a standard <pre> text, it would come out exactly as the user
typed.

For instance, see the sourceforge issue description boxes. Those use plain
text formatting and what you type is what you get.

I personally don't mind the wiki formatting as plain text input, but one day
my boss typed in a ticket for me to do and when I read it, the lines were
jumbled together and created a communication issue.

- Leon

Garrett McGrath wrote:
>
> Really the wiki formatting is only there to make things look pretty if
> they just type it'll come out as plain text (or at least it 'should').
> Just reinforce the use of the 'preview and confirm' practice.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com [mailto:trac-users[at]googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of leon[at]opensourcestrategies.com
> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:52 PM
> To: Trac Users
> Subject: [Trac] Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting?
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I was wondering if it's possible to use plain text input in the trac
> ticket description field instead of wiki formatting? The motivation
> for this is to present a simpler input format for users that might not
> be inclined to learn wiki formatting.
>
> - Leon
>
>
>
>
> >

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dherman at ediets

Jan 8, 2007, 12:52 PM

Post #5 of 17 (5263 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

You can put all text in
{{{
}}}
And it will be treated as plain text, but this is not pretty either.
More than anything, I want to be able to take all \n's and turn them
into line breaks, even turn them in to wiki br's by just replacing them
with [br]

-----Original Message-----
From: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com [mailto:trac-users[at]googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Garrett McGrath
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 3:08 PM
To: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com
Subject: [Trac] Re: Possible to use plain text instead of
wikiformatting?

Ah, well I guess technically this is a wiki formatting thing but if you
just put a second line in like:

Line 1.

Line 2.

Line 3.

It'll work a bit better.

-----Original Message-----
From: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com [mailto:trac-users[at]googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Leon Torres
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 2:33 PM
To: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com
Subject: [Trac] Re: Possible to use plain text instead of
wikiformatting?

Hi again. :-)

It doesn't quite match what the user types in. The specific issue my
boss had was when he was typing in several lines like follows:

Line 1.
Line 2.
Line 3.

This isn't an itemized list, just several lines intended to be separated
by a CR. The wiki formatting put them all into one paragraph:

Line1. Line2. Line3.

Whereas in a standard <pre> text, it would come out exactly as the user
typed.

For instance, see the sourceforge issue description boxes. Those use
plain text formatting and what you type is what you get.

I personally don't mind the wiki formatting as plain text input, but one
day my boss typed in a ticket for me to do and when I read it, the lines
were jumbled together and created a communication issue.

- Leon

Garrett McGrath wrote:
>
> Really the wiki formatting is only there to make things look pretty if

> they just type it'll come out as plain text (or at least it 'should').
> Just reinforce the use of the 'preview and confirm' practice.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com [mailto:trac-users[at]googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of leon[at]opensourcestrategies.com
> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:52 PM
> To: Trac Users
> Subject: [Trac] Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting?
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I was wondering if it's possible to use plain text input in the trac
> ticket description field instead of wiki formatting? The motivation
> for this is to present a simpler input format for users that might not

> be inclined to learn wiki formatting.
>
> - Leon
>
>
>
>
> >

--
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cboos at neuf

Jan 8, 2007, 1:18 PM

Post #6 of 17 (5271 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Leon Torres wrote:
> It doesn't quite match what the user types in. The specific issue my
> boss had was when he was typing in several lines like follows:
>
> Line 1.
> Line 2.
> Line 3.
>
> This isn't an itemized list, just several lines intended to be
> separated by a CR. The wiki formatting put them all into one paragraph:
>
> Line1. Line2. Line3.
>
> Whereas in a standard <pre> text, it would come out exactly as the
> user typed.

A middle term would be to simply respect newlines, as we already do for
changeset messages. That would avoid most of the issues. I wanted to do
that for 0.11 anyway, but wondered about what the default should be.
Like we have now, or escape newlines enabled by default?

Now that we're talking about the wiki, I'd like to get some feedback
about two other possible changes:
- what about allowing bulleted list to start at the beginning of line?
The constraint of the space in front is a bit artificial, as I don't see
many possibility of having "false positive". (1)
- the WikiCreole "standardization" initiative is an interesting one, and
we can get close without sacrificing much (if anything). (2)

I'd be interested to get some feedback on the above points.

-- Christian

(1) - http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/124#comment:13
(2) - http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/4356

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garyo at genarts

Jan 8, 2007, 3:01 PM

Post #7 of 17 (5259 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Christian Boos wrote:
> A middle term would be to simply respect newlines, as we already do for
> changeset messages. That would avoid most of the issues. I wanted to do
> that for 0.11 anyway, but wondered about what the default should be.
> Like we have now, or escape newlines enabled by default?

I'd like escape-newlines to be on. What about a compromise: respect newlines
after <50 chars? I.e. short lines stay short; long lines wrap.

Creole respects source line breaks too.

-- Gary

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cboos at neuf

Jan 9, 2007, 12:09 AM

Post #8 of 17 (5266 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Gary Oberbrunner wrote:
>
> Christian Boos wrote:
>> A middle term would be to simply respect newlines, as we already do for
>> changeset messages. That would avoid most of the issues. I wanted to do
>> that for 0.11 anyway, but wondered about what the default should be.
>> Like we have now, or escape newlines enabled by default?
>
> I'd like escape-newlines to be on. What about a compromise: respect
> newlines
> after <50 chars? I.e. short lines stay short; long lines wrap.
>
> Creole respects source line breaks too.

Just to clarify: I was talking about respecting newlines in the context
of ticket description and comments only, not in general. In regular Wiki
pages, I prefer to keep the ability to break down a paragraph in
multiple lines, as this gives clearer diffs.

-- Christian

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garyo at genarts

Jan 9, 2007, 7:36 AM

Post #9 of 17 (5248 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Christian Boos wrote:
> Gary Oberbrunner wrote:
>> Christian Boos wrote:
>>> A middle term would be to simply respect newlines, as we already do for
>>> changeset messages. That would avoid most of the issues. I wanted to do
>>> that for 0.11 anyway, but wondered about what the default should be.
>>> Like we have now, or escape newlines enabled by default?
>> I'd like escape-newlines to be on. What about a compromise: respect
>> newlines
>> after <50 chars? I.e. short lines stay short; long lines wrap.
>>
>> Creole respects source line breaks too.
>
> Just to clarify: I was talking about respecting newlines in the context
> of ticket description and comments only, not in general. In regular Wiki
> pages, I prefer to keep the ability to break down a paragraph in
> multiple lines, as this gives clearer diffs.

Agreed, me too.

-- Gary

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omry at yadan

Jan 9, 2007, 7:58 AM

Post #10 of 17 (5238 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

> Just to clarify: I was talking about respecting newlines in the context
> of ticket description and comments only, not in general. In regular Wiki
> pages, I prefer to keep the ability to break down a paragraph in
> multiple lines, as this gives clearer diffs.
>

I think respecting newlines in ticket descriptions is a very good idea,
99% of the users are not aware of the wiki formating when they enter
comments , and comments get mangled.

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david.vanmaren at dako

Jan 11, 2007, 3:26 PM

Post #11 of 17 (5236 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Christian Boos wrote:

> Now that we're talking about the wiki, I'd like to get some feedback
> about two other possible changes:
> - what about allowing bulleted list to start at the beginning of line?
> The constraint of the space in front is a bit artificial, as I don't see
> many possibility of having "false positive". (1)

+1 on dropping the requirement of leading spaces.

Note also that if you adopt the WikiCreole form of:

* item 1
** item 1.1
* item 2

I *think* that the old-fashioned emacs outline mode works better.
(and I admit that I'm mainly editing wiki pages using trac-wiki mode
(1). It's *very* nice.)

(1) http://www.meadowy.org/~gotoh/projects/trac-wiki/
DVM

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trac-list at swapoff

Jan 11, 2007, 6:34 PM

Post #12 of 17 (5240 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 10:18:10PM +0100, Christian Boos wrote:
> - what about allowing bulleted list to start at the beginning of line?
> The constraint of the space in front is a bit artificial, as I don't see
> many possibility of having "false positive". (1)

I don't think there are many cases where a * at the beginning of a line
would naturally occur, but a hyphen seems fairly common (after checking
the Wiki pages on TH). Specifically the idiom of signing a comment thus:

Some comment.
- athomas

> - the WikiCreole "standardization" initiative is an interesting one, and
> we can get close without sacrificing much (if anything). (2)

WikiCreole seems like a worthy goal, particularly if its not that
difficult to implement.

> I'd be interested to get some feedback on the above points.
>
> -- Christian
>
> (1) - http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/124#comment:13
> (2) - http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/4356
>
>
> >

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chuckssmith at gmail

Jan 16, 2007, 8:13 AM

Post #13 of 17 (5189 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

> Now that we're talking about the wiki, I'd like to get some feedback
> about two other possible changes:
> - what about allowing bulleted list to start at the beginning of line?
> The constraint of the space in front is a bit artificial, as I don't see
> many possibility of having "false positive". (1)
> - the WikiCreole "standardization" initiative is an interesting one, and
> we can get close without sacrificing much (if anything). (2)
>
> I'd be interested to get some feedback on the above points.
>
> (2) - http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/4356

As initiator of ticket #4356, a newbie Trac user, but experienced wiki
user (I'm leading the WikiCreole effort and founded the Esperanto
Wikipedia), I'd like to chime in here (I use MediaWiki and JSPWiki on a
regular basis). On a private project, I get very frustrated with
TracWiki, but especially in the following two cases (we're using Trac
0.9.6, so I apologize if either of these have already been fixed):

1) I often make bullet lists without a space in front only to see after
I've saved that they were not converted to bullet lists.
2) I've tried to make page names with numbers at the end, only to see
that they don't become links or they try to be interpreted as macros.
(I wanted to archive our newsletters as NewsLetter20070113, but this
name was not allowed. If you could allow freelinks for this like
[[Newsletter20070113]] I would greatly appreciate it.

Information I find concerning Creole on Trac I post here:
http://www.wikicreole.org/wiki/TracWiki... feel free to add your own
comments there as well, if you think they would be beneficial to the
WikiCreole project in general. We're also planning to remove newlines
as newlines from the Creole 0.4 spec
(http://www.wikicreole.org/wiki/Creole0.4), but this is a very
controversial issue, so if you have an opinion, feel free to express
yourself on the wikicreole wiki.

Thank you for your time and all the great stuff you've put into Trac...
I especially love the Browse Source, Roadmap and Ticket systems.

Keep up the good work!
Chuck

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trac-ml at hfbk

Jan 16, 2007, 9:04 AM

Post #14 of 17 (5191 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Hello list,

a thing like WikiCreole sounds very promising. I have hundreds of people
being used to the syntax of swiki and would be very happy if such an
approach would make life easier for them while using trac (and/or also
being able to include such pages)

thanks for the effort,

t

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richardvoigt at gmail

Jan 16, 2007, 10:45 PM

Post #15 of 17 (5181 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

On 1/9/07, Omry Yadan <omry[at]yadan.net> wrote:
>
>
> > Just to clarify: I was talking about respecting newlines in the context
> > of ticket description and comments only, not in general. In regular Wiki
> > pages, I prefer to keep the ability to break down a paragraph in
> > multiple lines, as this gives clearer diffs.
> >
>
> I think respecting newlines in ticket descriptions is a very good idea,
> 99% of the users are not aware of the wiki formating when they enter
> comments , and comments get mangled.
>

Perhaps the presence of wiki formatting tags could also inform the
decision to escape newlines. If the input has any [ br ] in it,
probably the user intends to control breaks, otherwise newlines should
be preserved.

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dherman at ediets

Jan 17, 2007, 7:29 AM

Post #16 of 17 (5198 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

What about a plugin that would reformat wiki text after the post,
putting the [br]'s in place of /n's?
I'm curious if there is a plugin point for this that would make it
possible.

-----Original Message-----
From: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com [mailto:trac-users[at]googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of richardvoigt[at]gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:46 AM
To: trac-users[at]googlegroups.com
Subject: [Trac] Re: Possible to use plain text instead of
wikiformatting?

On 1/9/07, Omry Yadan <omry[at]yadan.net> wrote:
>
>
> > Just to clarify: I was talking about respecting newlines in the
> > context of ticket description and comments only, not in general. In
> > regular Wiki pages, I prefer to keep the ability to break down a
> > paragraph in multiple lines, as this gives clearer diffs.
> >
>
> I think respecting newlines in ticket descriptions is a very good
> idea, 99% of the users are not aware of the wiki formating when they
> enter comments , and comments get mangled.
>

Perhaps the presence of wiki formatting tags could also inform the
decision to escape newlines. If the input has any [ br ] in it,
probably the user intends to control breaks, otherwise newlines should
be preserved.

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the
eDiets MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

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bruno.caimar at gmail

Jan 19, 2007, 2:13 PM

Post #17 of 17 (5159 views)
Permalink

Re: Possible to use plain text instead of wikiformatting? [In reply to]

Hello,

I made a Greasemonkey script to create a special button to put [[br]]
at all lines on a wiki/ticket description/comment.

I've created that because in some cases I receive new bugs/issues by
email and just paste the email content in the description box at new
ticket.

If someone have interest... the script is available at
http://bruno.caimar.googlepages.com/inserebotoparainserirbrn.user.js

Bye,

Bruno Caimar

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