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keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example?

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wferi at niif

Sep 15, 2007, 12:00 AM

Post #1 of 14 (5806 views)
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keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example?

Hi,

I'm trying to get the above working, without success so far: UNDIS.DOS
refuses to load with an invalid NDIS stack message (from memory).
keeppxe has some effect: it reduces the available conventional memory
by 140 kbytes or so... still, the packet driver doesn't seem to find
the interface. Does anybody have a working setup I could look at?
--
Thanks,
Feri.

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wferi at niif

Sep 15, 2007, 3:33 AM

Post #2 of 14 (5688 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:

> Does anybody have a working setup I could look at?

Ahem, I've just noticed the latest commits. They definitely have
something to say about this. I'm checking it...
--
Feri.

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wferi at niif

Sep 15, 2007, 4:23 AM

Post #3 of 14 (5675 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:

> Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:
>
>> Does anybody have a working setup I could look at?
>
> Ahem, I've just noticed the latest commits. They definitely have
> something to say about this. I'm checking it...

Well, Duane's example loads, but doesn't seem to exploit the keeppxe
option. At least I can't see the point, the TCP* utility doesn't find
the packet driver. Or is it just the broken Intel PXE implementation?
--
Feri.

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hpa at zytor

Sep 16, 2007, 11:26 AM

Post #4 of 14 (5701 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

Wagner Ferenc wrote:
> Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:
>
>> Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:
>>
>>> Does anybody have a working setup I could look at?
>> Ahem, I've just noticed the latest commits. They definitely have
>> something to say about this. I'm checking it...
>
> Well, Duane's example loads, but doesn't seem to exploit the keeppxe
> option. At least I can't see the point, the TCP* utility doesn't find
> the packet driver. Or is it just the broken Intel PXE implementation?

If you're not using keeppxe, pxelinux will unload the PXE stack
completely, so it definitely won't work.

-hpa

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wferi at niif

Sep 16, 2007, 1:25 PM

Post #5 of 14 (5676 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa [at] zytor> writes:

> Wagner Ferenc wrote:
>> Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:
>>
>>> Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:
>>>
>>>> Does anybody have a working setup I could look at?
>>> Ahem, I've just noticed the latest commits. They definitely have
>>> something to say about this. I'm checking it...
>>
>> Well, Duane's example loads, but doesn't seem to exploit the keeppxe
>> option. At least I can't see the point, the TCP* utility doesn't find
>> the packet driver. Or is it just the broken Intel PXE implementation?
>
> If you're not using keeppxe, pxelinux will unload the PXE stack
> completely, so it definitely won't work.

Probably I didn't express myself clearly. The keeppxe option is
present in Duane's example, but I can't see any trace of its usage.
The booted system doesn't seem to have a TCP stack.

By the way, if you boot DOS, the keeppxe option eats quite a lot of
conventional memory. There's no way around it, I guess. Or is there?

Concerning my struggles, the 3Com UNDI driver has better diagnostics
and documentation, so now I at least know that I miss PROTMAN.DOS.
The docs says: "When using NDIS Protocol Manager, SYSTEM.INI file is
required." Still, I can see no way around the protocol manager,
whatever it is. Everybody seems to use it, everybody seems to have
it, except FreeDOS, which I'd like to use. How should I get it, it
it's really needed? How could I avoid it, if not?
--
Thanks for any hints; my DOS days ended oh-so-long ago...
Feri.

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hpa at zytor

Sep 16, 2007, 2:04 PM

Post #6 of 14 (5681 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

Wagner Ferenc wrote:
> "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa [at] zytor> writes:
>
>> Wagner Ferenc wrote:
>>> Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:
>>>
>>>> Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Does anybody have a working setup I could look at?
>>>> Ahem, I've just noticed the latest commits. They definitely have
>>>> something to say about this. I'm checking it...
>>> Well, Duane's example loads, but doesn't seem to exploit the keeppxe
>>> option. At least I can't see the point, the TCP* utility doesn't find
>>> the packet driver. Or is it just the broken Intel PXE implementation?
>> If you're not using keeppxe, pxelinux will unload the PXE stack
>> completely, so it definitely won't work.
>
> Probably I didn't express myself clearly. The keeppxe option is
> present in Duane's example, but I can't see any trace of its usage.
> The booted system doesn't seem to have a TCP stack.
>
> By the way, if you boot DOS, the keeppxe option eats quite a lot of
> conventional memory. There's no way around it, I guess. Or is there?
>

No, there isn't really.

> Concerning my struggles, the 3Com UNDI driver has better diagnostics
> and documentation, so now I at least know that I miss PROTMAN.DOS.
> The docs says: "When using NDIS Protocol Manager, SYSTEM.INI file is
> required." Still, I can see no way around the protocol manager,
> whatever it is. Everybody seems to use it, everybody seems to have
> it, except FreeDOS, which I'd like to use. How should I get it, it
> it's really needed? How could I avoid it, if not?

No, it's not that simple.

MS-DOS never included a network stack, and quite a few were developed.
There was at least three different network driver standards that
developed: NDIS, used by IBM and Microsoft; ODI, used by Novell; and the
Packet Driver specification, used mostly by open projects. You need to
have the proper driver for your stack.

The .DOS extension was used by IBM-Microsoft stacks.

-hpa

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Peter.Leenders at computacenter

Sep 17, 2007, 1:51 AM

Post #7 of 14 (5692 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

Hello Ferenc,

we use a simular undis based boot floppy

LABEL Undi
MENU LABEL Bootdisk with keeppxe Option
kernel [path to memdisk from tftp-root]/memdisk
append keeppxe initrd=[path to bootdisk.imz from
tftp-root]/bootdisk.imz

You can also use alternatively the 3com undis3c.dos Undi-Packetdriver (
available at: http://support.3com.com/infodeli/tools/nic/mba.htm). We run
different bootfloppies with both undis.dos or undis3c.dos.

Bootfloppies with undi driver can be found e.g. at:
http://www.netbootdisk.com/

Sincerely

Peter Leenders

Wagner Ferenc
<wferi [at] niif>
Sent by: To
syslinux-bounces@ syslinux [at] zytor
zytor.com cc

Subject
15.09.2007 09:00 [syslinux] keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS
example?

Please respond to
For discussion of
SYSLINUX and
tftp-hpa
<syslinux [at] zytor
om>

Hi,

I'm trying to get the above working, without success so far: UNDIS.DOS
refuses to load with an invalid NDIS stack message (from memory).
keeppxe has some effect: it reduces the available conventional memory
by 140 kbytes or so... still, the packet driver doesn't seem to find
the interface. Does anybody have a working setup I could look at?
--
Thanks,
Feri.

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wferi at niif

Sep 17, 2007, 3:20 AM

Post #8 of 14 (5673 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

Peter.Leenders [at] computacenter writes:

> Bootfloppies with undi driver can be found e.g. at:
> http://www.netbootdisk.com/

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the pointer. It will take some time to evaluate. I'm
starting to see that it's much more complicated than I expected. And
the memory hit makes it somewhat of questionnable usefulness...
--
Thanks,
Feri.

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bblaauw at home

Sep 21, 2007, 5:21 AM

Post #9 of 14 (5678 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

Ferenc Wagner schreef:
> Thanks for the pointer. It will take some time to evaluate. I'm
> starting to see that it's much more complicated than I expected. And
> the memory hit makes it somewhat of questionnable usefulness...
>
My apologies if the post was already answered (catching up from
holiday). the PXElinux KEEPPXE option keeps both the PXE and UNDI parts
in memory instead of only the UNDI part. the "MS Client " network stack
for DOS (which is intended to give access to NT4/2000/XP SMB-shares) can
be downloaded from Microsoft ftp servers as 2 disks (including
PROTMAN.DOS). Sites like http://www.netbootdisk.com/ and www.nu2.nu and
www.veder.com might be able to give you more of a hint.

It seems strange, but the best way to get things working initially is to
get the DOS drivers for your specific network card working, rather than
the universal ones. Later on you can make the bootdisk more generic by
switching to UNDIS3C driver. Eric Auer from the FreeDOS project has
some tools on his website, mainly to get arguments from the syslinux
commandline, to see if KEEPPXE is present for example. It can be found
at http://www.coli.uni-saarland.de/~eric/stuff/soft/

Anyway, I don't know if someone will ever contribute a 'unload PXE stack
but keep UNDI stack' implementation/patch to PXElinux.
I'm testing PXE booting so far with EmBoot's universal packet driver,
but the registered download they sent is incomplete and email support
seems to be absent so far, maybe requiring forum access for support. I
simply dont like the entire MS client software (copyrights, distribution
etc), so sticking to PXE booting + (universal) packet driver + Wget to
do what I want.

Goodluck with your netboot project,

Bernd

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hpa at zytor

Sep 21, 2007, 10:32 AM

Post #10 of 14 (5675 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

Bernd Blaauw wrote:
> Anyway, I don't know if someone will ever contribute a 'unload PXE stack
> but keep UNDI stack' implementation/patch to PXElinux.

More important, it's somewhat questionable if it'll work. The layering
between BC and UNDI is broken in many ways (PXE spec braindead - who'd
thought?)

-hpa

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duanev at io

Sep 22, 2007, 12:26 PM

Post #11 of 14 (5672 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

My example doesn't include an undi packet driver -- I had to leave
out the one I use due to license restrictions. I've been using the
www.emboot.com driver (undi_pkt.com) ... they want $7 for it..

If you get a copy, place it in the bin directory and load it in
autoexec.bat after hxpdmi32.

Duane

On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 11:26:59AM -0700, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> Wagner Ferenc wrote:
> > Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:
> >
> >> Wagner Ferenc <wferi [at] niif> writes:
> >>
> >>> Does anybody have a working setup I could look at?
> >> Ahem, I've just noticed the latest commits. They definitely have
> >> something to say about this. I'm checking it...
> >
> > Well, Duane's example loads, but doesn't seem to exploit the keeppxe
> > option. At least I can't see the point, the TCP* utility doesn't find
> > the packet driver. Or is it just the broken Intel PXE implementation?
>
> If you're not using keeppxe, pxelinux will unload the PXE stack
> completely, so it definitely won't work.

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tbskyd at gmail

Oct 5, 2007, 12:57 AM

Post #12 of 14 (5614 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

2007/9/21, Bernd Blaauw <bblaauw [at] home>:
> It seems strange, but the best way to get things working initially is to
> get the DOS drivers for your specific network card working, rather than
> the universal ones. Later on you can make the bootdisk more generic by
> switching to UNDIS3C driver. Eric Auer from the FreeDOS project has
> some tools on his website, mainly to get arguments from the syslinux
> commandline, to see if KEEPPXE is present for example. It can be found
> at http://www.coli.uni-saarland.de/~eric/stuff/soft/
>

hi:
i want to detect "keeppxe" under dos. i go to Eric Auer's web site
but can not find such tools. could you tell me which tool can do this?
or is there any api can do this? i try the method in the comboot
document(ah=30h,int 21h and ah=01h,int 22h), but it seems can not work
under dos.
thanks for help!!

Regards,
tbskyd

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hpa at zytor

Oct 5, 2007, 7:35 AM

Post #13 of 14 (5614 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

d tbsky wrote:
> 2007/9/21, Bernd Blaauw <bblaauw [at] home>:
>> It seems strange, but the best way to get things working initially is to
>> get the DOS drivers for your specific network card working, rather than
>> the universal ones. Later on you can make the bootdisk more generic by
>> switching to UNDIS3C driver. Eric Auer from the FreeDOS project has
>> some tools on his website, mainly to get arguments from the syslinux
>> commandline, to see if KEEPPXE is present for example. It can be found
>> at http://www.coli.uni-saarland.de/~eric/stuff/soft/
>>
>
> hi:
> i want to detect "keeppxe" under dos. i go to Eric Auer's web site
> but can not find such tools. could you tell me which tool can do this?
> or is there any api can do this? i try the method in the comboot
> document(ah=30h,int 21h and ah=01h,int 22h), but it seems can not work
> under dos.
> thanks for help!!
>

See the PXE spec for an INT 1Ah call that detects PXE.

-hpa

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tbskyd at gmail

Oct 5, 2007, 9:34 AM

Post #14 of 14 (5625 views)
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Re: keeppxe+memdisk+FreeDOS example? [In reply to]

2007/10/5, H. Peter Anvin <hpa [at] zytor>:
> See the PXE spec for an INT 1Ah call that detects PXE.

thanks a lot for that information. i can detect PXE under dos now.

Regards,
tbskyd

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