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robb at unrealstyle

Sep 11, 2008, 10:11 AM

Post #1 of 35 (2121 views)
Permalink
MagicSpam

Does anybody have any experience with this product?

My company wants to replace SpamAssassin with this product, due to
SpamAssassin being not being up to par other products.

My argument is that people we give SpamAssassin to have no clue how to
use it and what it's designed to do, therefore they think it sucks.


martinh at solidstatelogic

Sep 11, 2008, 1:22 PM

Post #2 of 35 (2078 views)
Permalink
RE: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Rob

Can't say i have, but SA does need someone with a little expertise and a clue (tm) to get it going well. After that it takes very little extra work apart from upgrading every so often and running sa-update every week or so.

--
martin

-----Original Message-----
From: <robb [at] unrealstyle>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:12 PM
To: users [at] spamassassin
Subject: MagicSpam

Does anybody have any experience with this product?

My company wants to replace SpamAssassin with this product, due to SpamAssassin being not being up to par other products.

My argument is that people we give SpamAssassin to have no clue how to use it and what it's designed to do, therefore they think it sucks.




**********************************************************************
Confidentiality : This e-mail and any attachments are intended for the
addressee only and may be confidential. If they come to you in error
you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them
to anyone. Please advise the sender by replying to this e-mail
immediately and then delete the original from your computer.
Opinion : Any opinions expressed in this e-mail are entirely those of
the author and unless specifically stated to the contrary, are not
necessarily those of the author's employer.
Security Warning : Internet e-mail is not necessarily a secure
communications medium and can be subject to data corruption. We advise
that you consider this fact when e-mailing us.
Viruses : We have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and any
attachments are free from known viruses but in keeping with good
computing practice, you should ensure that they are virus free.

Red Lion 49 Ltd T/A Solid State Logic
Registered as a limited company in England and Wales
(Company No:5362730)
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU,
United Kingdom
**********************************************************************


jstroik at ssec

Sep 11, 2008, 2:02 PM

Post #3 of 35 (2076 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Rob,

Spamassassin is more difficult to configure because commercial products
don't have the luxury of requiring more sysadmin configuration. They
have to be easy or no one would buy them. The disadvantage of them
being easier is that they have less flexibility, less information and
less site-specific configuration to work with. They also tend to be
less accurate, erring to the side of enforcement at the risk of
discarding legitimate mail.

It is important to check spamassassin to see which plugins are installed
properly and working. Spamassassin will work with only a few plugins
installed, but it will work much better if you install all plugins that
make sense for your site.

To maintain spamassassin well, you also have to have very level-headed
admins who are willing to drop even very effective plugins if they have
the potential for false positives. You have to evaluate the plugins
yourself, to some extent, and you have to trust behavior that you
observe. I recently had to decrease the score of the BOTNET plugin
significantly. It's not the BOTNET plugin is doing something wrong --
it's simply that companies often configure their mail servers with mail
gateways and have internal/private network Received lines that trigger
the BOTNET plugin.

Commercial products tend to trap lots of spam, like a properly
configured spamassassin installation, but they also tend to get a lot of
false positives. Consider that people complain a lot more about false
negatives (spam that gets through) than false positives, especially if
they don't see the false positives. Because of this behavior pattern,
commercial products will almost always err to the side of throwing away
the baby with the bathwater. And this is more dangerous to email than
spam is.

Best,
Jesse


aawolfe at gmail

Sep 11, 2008, 2:51 PM

Post #4 of 35 (2063 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:11 PM, <robb [at] unrealstyle> wrote:
> Does anybody have any experience with this product?
>

It appears *noone* has any experience with it... Google finds only 2
links and they are on the company's own homepage.

> My company wants to replace SpamAssassin with this product, due to
> SpamAssassin being not being up to par other products.

What is the evidence for this statement? I move customers from
commercial solutions to my company's SA based filtering regularly and
they are typically very impressed with what we can do for them with
Spamassassin.

>
> My argument is that people we give SpamAssassin to have no clue how to use
> it and what it's designed to do, therefore they think it sucks.
>

Why would your users even need to know you are using SA? How are they
supposed to "use" it? Just configure it to make spam go away and they
should be OK with that. You can set up some sort of quarantine or
tagging system but people generally aren't going to use it much.

>
>
>

From what I can find of the company behind this Magic thing, it looks
like their products are repackaged open source software. (Their
"MagicMail" product appears to be qmail). There's a pretty decent
change they are selling you Spamassassin anyway :)


fchan at molsci

Sep 11, 2008, 3:25 PM

Post #5 of 35 (2067 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Hi,
Sorry I don't have experience with this product.
I do have limited experience with Barracuda Networks appliance and I
think is a great product for an e-mail filter which I had experienced
with my friend to set up on their network & email server. It is easy
to set up, configure and maintain so for an alternative to
spamassassin this is great alternative. Price a fairly good and since
they were a educational institute they got an discount.
http://www.barracudanetworks.com/ns/products/spam_overview.php

Frank

>Does anybody have any experience with this product?
>
>My company wants to replace SpamAssassin with this product, due to
>SpamAssassin being not being up to par other products.
>
>My argument is that people we give SpamAssassin to have no clue how
>to use it and what it's designed to do, therefore they think it
>sucks.


martinh at solidstatelogic

Sep 11, 2008, 11:56 PM

Post #6 of 35 (2066 views)
Permalink
RE: MagicSpam [In reply to]

I find i have to run botnet rules individually, not as the big meta rule. See the doc in the tar ball for how to.

-- martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Stroik <jstroik [at] ssec>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:03 PM
To: robb [at] unrealstyle
Cc: users [at] spamassassin
Subject: Re: MagicSpam

Rob,

Spamassassin is more difficult to configure because commercial products don't have the luxury of requiring more sysadmin configuration. They have to be easy or no one would buy them. The disadvantage of them being easier is that they have less flexibility, less information and less site-specific configuration to work with. They also tend to be less accurate, erring to the side of enforcement at the risk of discarding legitimate mail.

It is important to check spamassassin to see which plugins are installed properly and working. Spamassassin will work with only a few plugins installed, but it will work much better if you install all plugins that make sense for your site.

To maintain spamassassin well, you also have to have very level-headed admins who are willing to drop even very effective plugins if they have the potential for false positives. You have to evaluate the plugins yourself, to some extent, and you have to trust behavior that you observe. I recently had to decrease the score of the BOTNET plugin significantly. It's not the BOTNET plugin is doing something wrong -- it's simply that companies often configure their mail servers with mail gateways and have internal/private network Received lines that trigger the BOTNET plugin.

Commercial products tend to trap lots of spam, like a properly configured spamassassin installation, but they also tend to get a lot of false positives. Consider that people complain a lot more about false negatives (spam that gets through) than false positives, especially if they don't see the false positives. Because of this behavior pattern, commercial products will almost always err to the side of throwing away the baby with the bathwater. And this is more dangerous to email than spam is.

Best,
Jesse

**********************************************************************
Confidentiality : This e-mail and any attachments are intended for the
addressee only and may be confidential. If they come to you in error
you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them
to anyone. Please advise the sender by replying to this e-mail
immediately and then delete the original from your computer.
Opinion : Any opinions expressed in this e-mail are entirely those of
the author and unless specifically stated to the contrary, are not
necessarily those of the author's employer.
Security Warning : Internet e-mail is not necessarily a secure
communications medium and can be subject to data corruption. We advise
that you consider this fact when e-mailing us.
Viruses : We have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and any
attachments are free from known viruses but in keeping with good
computing practice, you should ensure that they are virus free.

Red Lion 49 Ltd T/A Solid State Logic
Registered as a limited company in England and Wales
(Company No:5362730)
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU,
United Kingdom
**********************************************************************


ram at netcore

Sep 12, 2008, 12:05 AM

Post #7 of 35 (2056 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 15:25 -0700, fchan wrote:
> Hi,
> Sorry I don't have experience with this product.
> I do have limited experience with Barracuda Networks appliance and I
> think is a great product for an e-mail filter which I had experienced
> with my friend to set up on their network & email server. It is easy
> to set up, configure and maintain so for an alternative to
> spamassassin this is great alternative. Price a fairly good and since
> they were a educational institute they got an discount.
> http://www.barracudanetworks.com/ns/products/spam_overview.php

Alternative to spamassassin ?? , AFAIK barracuda uses spamassassin. You
just get their rules and DNS lists that makes it "better" than the
default SA
But to be honest ,Not everyone can keep managing SA boxes.
If some company wants to dump SA because of management issues , I would
suggest just tie up with some commercial plugin for SA

No change to the user interfaces. Almost immediately implementable on
an existing setup and would be economical too


robert at schetterer

Sep 12, 2008, 1:14 AM

Post #8 of 35 (2047 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

ram schrieb:
> On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 15:25 -0700, fchan wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Sorry I don't have experience with this product.
>> I do have limited experience with Barracuda Networks appliance and I
>> think is a great product for an e-mail filter which I had experienced
>> with my friend to set up on their network & email server. It is easy
>> to set up, configure and maintain so for an alternative to
>> spamassassin this is great alternative. Price a fairly good and since
>> they were a educational institute they got an discount.
>> http://www.barracudanetworks.com/ns/products/spam_overview.php
>
> Alternative to spamassassin ?? , AFAIK barracuda uses spamassassin. You
> just get their rules and DNS lists that makes it "better" than the
> default SA
> But to be honest ,Not everyone can keep managing SA boxes.
> If some company wants to dump SA because of management issues , I would
> suggest just tie up with some commercial plugin for SA
>
> No change to the user interfaces. Almost immediately implementable on
> an existing setup and would be economical too
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hi ,
you may have a look to ironport now owned by cisco
it s one of the leading solutions in antispam
but very expensive

--
Best Regards

MfG Robert Schetterer

Germany/Munich/Bavaria


karlp at ourldsfamily

Sep 12, 2008, 9:07 AM

Post #9 of 35 (2054 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, fchan wrote:

> Hi,
> Sorry I don't have experience with this product.
> I do have limited experience with Barracuda Networks appliance and I think is
> a great product for an e-mail filter which I had experienced with my friend
> to set up on their network & email server. It is easy to set up, configure
> and maintain so for an alternative to spamassassin this is great alternative.
> Price a fairly good and since they were a educational institute they got an
> discount.
> http://www.barracudanetworks.com/ns/products/spam_overview.php

I have to violently disagree. As an administrator of a system with 184
email groups and over 7000 subscribers on it, I absolutely hate Barracuda
products. Out of the box, they specialize in creating huge amounts of
backscatter (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_(e-mail) for
more info) which is SPAM.

Ease of setup and use are not the primary reason for purchasing any
product, IMO.

Karl

>
> Frank
>
>> Does anybody have any experience with this product?
>>
>> My company wants to replace SpamAssassin with this product, due to
>> SpamAssassin being not being up to par other products.
>>
>> My argument is that people we give SpamAssassin to have no clue how to use
>> it and what it's designed to do, therefore they think it sucks.
>

---
_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ ____________ __o
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ ____________ _-\<._
_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ (_)/ (_)
_/ _/ _/ _/ ......................
_/ _/ arl _/_/_/ _/ earson KarlP [at] ourldsfamily
---
http://consulting.ourldsfamily.com
---


d.hill at yournetplus

Sep 12, 2008, 9:25 AM

Post #10 of 35 (2061 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008, Karl Pearson wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, fchan wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> Sorry I don't have experience with this product.
>> I do have limited experience with Barracuda Networks appliance and I think
>> is a great product for an e-mail filter which I had experienced with my
>> friend to set up on their network & email server. It is easy to set up,
>> configure and maintain so for an alternative to spamassassin this is great
>> alternative. Price a fairly good and since they were a educational
>> institute they got an discount.
>> http://www.barracudanetworks.com/ns/products/spam_overview.php
>
> I have to violently disagree. As an administrator of a system with 184 email
> groups and over 7000 subscribers on it, I absolutely hate Barracuda products.
> Out of the box, they specialize in creating huge amounts of backscatter (see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_(e-mail) for more info) which is
> SPAM.
>
> Ease of setup and use are not the primary reason for purchasing any product,
> IMO.

One of the other things I've seen in recent weeks with Barracuda, is how
wrong they have their default reputation system set up (I assume it's the
default). I've had to speak with a number of admins about why the
reputation should ONLY reject messages where the source IP is found. As it
was, the appliance was rejecting if ANY IP in the received headers was
found.

-d


jstroik at ssec

Sep 12, 2008, 9:44 AM

Post #11 of 35 (2049 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Karl,


> Ease of setup and use are not the primary reason for purchasing any
> product, IMO.


Yes, but you aren't the common user. Many commercial products *must*
have oversimplified setups if they want the largest possible customer
base. Consider the difference between the primary goals of spamassassin
and arbitrary commercial anti-spam solution:

Spamassassin: To facilitate a community effort with the primary goal of
accurate reduction of spam.

Commercial Product: to sell as much commercial product as possible, with
the goal being either short term profits or long term profits.

A few years ago I bought a groupware that was configured as an open
relay out of the box. When I contacted support about changing the
default behavior, they said that they would lose customers if they
configured it securely out of the box, so they didn't do it.

Is spamassassin the best I've seen and worked with? Absolutely. Does
spamassassin cost more in sysadmin time and require a more competent
sysadmin to properly configure and maintain it? Yes. I've noticed in
my own work with spamassassin, especially under solaris, that more time
spent configuring it resulted in significantly better results.

Best,
Jesse


karlp at ourldsfamily

Sep 12, 2008, 9:54 AM

Post #12 of 35 (2058 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Excellent points. I'm glad I'm not a 'common user'...

KLP

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008, Jesse Stroik wrote:

> Karl,
>
>
>> Ease of setup and use are not the primary reason for purchasing any
>> product, IMO.
>
>
> Yes, but you aren't the common user. Many commercial products *must* have
> oversimplified setups if they want the largest possible customer base.
> Consider the difference between the primary goals of spamassassin and
> arbitrary commercial anti-spam solution:
>
> Spamassassin: To facilitate a community effort with the primary goal of
> accurate reduction of spam.
>
> Commercial Product: to sell as much commercial product as possible, with the
> goal being either short term profits or long term profits.
>
> A few years ago I bought a groupware that was configured as an open relay out
> of the box. When I contacted support about changing the default behavior,
> they said that they would lose customers if they configured it securely out
> of the box, so they didn't do it.
>
> Is spamassassin the best I've seen and worked with? Absolutely. Does
> spamassassin cost more in sysadmin time and require a more competent sysadmin
> to properly configure and maintain it? Yes. I've noticed in my own work
> with spamassassin, especially under solaris, that more time spent configuring
> it resulted in significantly better results.
>
> Best,
> Jesse
>

---
_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ ____________ __o
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ ____________ _-\<._
_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ (_)/ (_)
_/ _/ _/ _/ ......................
_/ _/ arl _/_/_/ _/ earson KarlP [at] ourldsfamily
---
http://consulting.ourldsfamily.com
---


mouss at netoyen

Sep 12, 2008, 11:02 AM

Post #13 of 35 (2053 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Jesse Stroik wrote:
> Karl,
>
>
>> Ease of setup and use are not the primary reason for purchasing any
>> product, IMO.
>
>
> Yes, but you aren't the common user. Many commercial products *must*
> have oversimplified setups if they want the largest possible customer
> base.

It's more than a "common user" question. while I can build an
*BSD/Debian/Centos box to do what I want, I did buy "COTS" firewalls,
backup servers, ... etc.

I personally don't like being called when on vacation, and more
importantly, I don't want a company to "rely" on me. Not only for
"loyalty", but also because I want to be able to quit when I want.

This is probably because when I quitted my first employer, I had to help
them for some time. and at the time, I and my ego did like it. but since
then, I learned that it was bad for me and my employer.

> Consider the difference between the primary goals of spamassassin
> and arbitrary commercial anti-spam solution:
>
> Spamassassin: To facilitate a community effort with the primary goal of
> accurate reduction of spam.
>
> Commercial Product: to sell as much commercial product as possible, with
> the goal being either short term profits or long term profits.
>
> A few years ago I bought a groupware that was configured as an open
> relay out of the box. When I contacted support about changing the
> default behavior, they said that they would lose customers if they
> configured it securely out of the box, so they didn't do it.
>
> Is spamassassin the best I've seen and worked with? Absolutely. Does
> spamassassin cost more in sysadmin time and require a more competent
> sysadmin to properly configure and maintain it? Yes. I've noticed in
> my own work with spamassassin, especially under solaris, that more time
> spent configuring it resulted in significantly better results.

there's a common misconception about tools (software or hardware): the
out of the box syndrom. some people think that they will "put it in and
everything will go on". This is wrong, whether it's open source or not.
Tools don't work by themselves. How many times did I hear a customer say
"... but it doesn't work..." and when asking "how is your DNS resolution
configured?" I get "sorry? what do you exactly mean...?" argh. and I
think many here have heared the classical "it started to fail this
morning, but nothing changed"...

anyway, if people have enough resources to run a product, let them. if
they can't, they'll need help. they may go with a commercial product
that "works out of the box and is easy to administer" and/or they can
contract someone to help them setup and maintain whatever product is
better for them.

and back to magicfoo, there's not much info about it on the network.
this is not a good sign.


sm at resistor

Sep 12, 2008, 11:08 AM

Post #14 of 35 (2061 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

At 09:44 12-09-2008, Jesse Stroik wrote:
>setups if they want the largest possible customer base. Consider
>the difference between the primary goals of spamassassin and
>arbitrary commercial anti-spam solution:
>
>Spamassassin: To facilitate a community effort with the primary goal
>of accurate reduction of spam.

There is SpamAssassin the project and SpamAssassin the software. The
project, under the aegis of the Apache Software Foundation, provides
a framework to support open source software development to deliver an
enterprise-grade, freely available software product for the public benefit.

SpamAssassin, the software, is a mail filter to identify spam. It is
designed for easy integration into any email system. The cost to
develop such a software is estimated to be around US $1.1 million.

Regards,
-sm


jstroik at ssec

Sep 12, 2008, 2:38 PM

Post #15 of 35 (2035 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Mouss,

mouss wrote:
> It's more than a "common user" question. while I can build an
> *BSD/Debian/Centos box to do what I want, I did buy "COTS" firewalls,
> backup servers, ... etc.


You're not talking about ease of setup, you're talking about quality and
reliability of product. Spamassassin doesn't require constant
attention. It has never caused a problem for me. But if you are wiling
to ensure your rulesets are updating properly and plugins are working,
(in addition to occasionally evaluating new plugins), you can keep your
performance remarkably high.

But that's the name of the game in this particular world. Spammers
change tactics.



> I personally don't like being called when on vacation, and more
> importantly, I don't want a company to "rely" on me. Not only for
> "loyalty", but also because I want to be able to quit when I want.


I don't know how to respond to his other than "well, duh." No sysadmin
worth his or her salt will throw a poor solution in place that would be
either:

(1) difficult for future admins to maintain or
(2) cause an unreasonable amount of unexpected maintenance.

That's why you document the work you do and you stick with known, proven
solutions where possible. Spamassassin happens to be the best, most
reliable anti-spam solution I've come across, which is why I use it.
And I've clashed with an awful lot of poor spam solutions.

I will agree with you that you have to spend real money to do a lot of
things well -- backups are a perfect example of this -- and in many
cases you can compress time and effort with money. But in the case of
spam tagging/filtering, you're often not getting what you think you're
getting with commercial anti-spam solutions. Choose carefully.


> there's a common misconception about tools (software or hardware): the
> out of the box syndrom. some people think that they will "put it in and
> everything will go on" <words cut>


I suggested that commercial software is often misconfigured out of the
box and even provided a concrete example. Where did I say it would just
work?

Best,
Jesse


brentk at cfl

Sep 12, 2008, 9:55 PM

Post #16 of 35 (2039 views)
Permalink
RE: MagicSpam [In reply to]

I have heard that the sonicwall email security appliance is pretty good. It
gets expensive per user, but they have desktop controls in outlook.

The other one is the service offered by mcaffee enterprise... I don't
remember the name, but its essentially a service they host and your mail
server only receives mail from them. Its underlying system is spamassassin,
but theirs is on steroids. I think the one of the developers of
spamassassin actually works for them.

Both systems use Bayesian filtering, but they have different types of input
that allow millions of indicators to be used and updated minute by minute,
thus allowing maximum spam detection. Basically input from many places is
always better than input from one place.. The more data you have to look at
the more obvious the trends thus making it easier to spot spam and rule out
false positives on a minute by minute basis.

-Brent


scheidell at secnap

Sep 14, 2008, 6:32 AM

Post #17 of 35 (2020 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

> At 09:44 12-09-2008, Jesse Stroik wrote:

> There is SpamAssassin the project and SpamAssassin the software. The
> project, under the aegis of the Apache Software Foundation, provides
> a framework to support open source software development to deliver an
> enterprise-grade, freely available software product for the public benefit.
>
> SpamAssassin, the software, is a mail filter to identify spam. It is
> designed for easy integration into any email system. The cost to
> develop such a software is estimated to be around US $1.1 million.

And many, if not the large majority of commercial systems use it somewhere.
A commercial product that does not understand spam, or if their team has not
had lots of experience with spam, will make those mistakes.

As the maintainer of the freebsd port of Spamassassin, I have to look at any
user contributed 'fixes' or scripts to see if they are keeping with the
overall SA design, or if they are freebsd only, do they cover, or will they
work with ALL freebsd users (commercial systems, hobby, or home grown).

As the maintainer, I have rejected several scripts that are mostly site or
company specific, reminding the author that SA has to be made generic, and
the Freebsd port of SA has to remain generic. I also remind them 'this is
open source', you are ENCOURAGED to make custom, site specific changes.

That said, as my second role as the CTO of one of the many companies that
uses SA, thanks to the team, community, and users for creating a generic,
'one site fits all' system, but, it does need lots of work to make it a
viable system to be used by 'users'. Remember users ;-)? If SA is used by
YOU, and YOU are totally in charge of what gets whitelisted, blacklisted,
etc, then YOU can maintain all the cf files and you can (eventually) get a
pretty stable, accurate system.

If, however, you are trying to create something easy to set up, and easy for
users to use without your constant tweaking, yes, its VERY hard.

As much time as our engineers spend on optimizations and minor customer
custom requests, I think most of their time is spend trying to balance the
spam capture rate and the false positive rate.

(you really need a team :-).
Examples of problems include ISP's who have clients that actually subscribe
to those 'free crap in your email box', vs commercial companies who don't
want their users using their email address for 'free porn' and such.

Take one of the reputation filters as an example: DCC.
DCC is great for identifying sources of BULK EMAIL. The commercial version
also lets you get a bulk/non bulk percentage value on the sending IP. The
free system allows you to take checksums of the spam and get a 'bulk/non
bulk' judgment on the email. Remember, this is BULK EMAIL, not spam. It
would trigger FP's on every truly double opt-in mailing list.

Bayes: if you are an ISP, and not using user based bayes, then your plastic
surgeons will be sending and receiving enlargement type emails that are
legit, but that a mortgage company would want to block.

HABEAS/SENDERBASE, more examples: for ISP/ generic use, maybe letting in
commercial bulk email from companies who pay to certify their bulk email is
he right thing to do. For a commercial business, maybe not.

However, that said, it is possible to build a commercial system that is easy
to install, will (out of the box) be about 99% accurate, allows users and it
administrators access to reporting and configs, without creating a burden.
(no, we don't allow individuals access to ~user/local.cf files ;-), but we
do allow admins to turn on and off specific plugins, and users to set their
own spam threshold values.

Bottom line: same argument for any commercial vs custom system.

A 'drop in place, open source' product isn't a product, its a framework. It
will be less accurate, because it wasn't tweaked.

A custom product will harder to build, but will be (eventually) what the
company needs (for 1.1mm ;-). Also, consider the ongoing need to continue
to track spam, new spam types and upgrades.

A COTS product should offer good support, enough customizations that it will
work for your company.

I support SA efforts and will continue to since I understand the value of
building and working with an open source community. That is why I volunteer
my time to maintain the freebsd SA port. If you are trying to block spam
for one server, or one company, and you don't want to spend a large amount
of time, get a pre-build, supported product. Not a framework. If however,
your needs are so unique that a COTS product won't work, then hire a team,
build a custom solution.

Your choice.
(sorry, off my soap box now)

--
Michael Scheidell, CTO
>|SECNAP Network Security


mhutchinson at manux

Sep 14, 2008, 12:56 PM

Post #18 of 35 (2013 views)
Permalink
RE: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Hello,

I really don't see how Spamassassin is not "up to par", considering many high end Net App's use Spamassassin and promote corporate level products that include it. Maybe it needs to be configured correctly?

In fact, I don't think I've seen any real rival to Spamassassin - except, maybe, for DSPAM (but I've never used it) - And I don't see how that is going to be any "easier to drive" than Spamassassin. The only good Spam tagging applications for Windows all seem to have Spamassassin inside them somewhere.

None of my users know how to use Spamassassin, in fact, none of my co-workers do either. I wouldn't even pretend to try and get them to do anything to it, apart from send Missed Spam back for Bayes training.
If it is other Admins you're giving the product to, and they don't/can't understand it, then they shouldn't be running it.

"no clue how to use it and what it's designed to do" - sounds like they need some education, these naïve people that you give Spamassassin to.

Cheers,
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: robb [at] unrealstyle [mailto:robb [at] unrealstyle]
Sent: Friday, 12 September 2008 5:12 a.m.
To: users [at] spamassassin
Subject: MagicSpam

Does anybody have any experience with this product?

My company wants to replace SpamAssassin with this product, due to
SpamAssassin being not being up to par other products.

My argument is that people we give SpamAssassin to have no clue how to
use it and what it's designed to do, therefore they think it sucks.


jan-peter at koopmann

Sep 16, 2008, 10:09 AM

Post #19 of 35 (1984 views)
Permalink
RE: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Well,

since many guys are recommending "what they use" (IronPort, Barracuda) I
thought I might bring BarricadeMX from Fort Systems into the game. Have
a look at them. It is _very_ efficient and can be configured to use
SpamAssassin as well. Comes with a very easy install for CentOS 5.2.

Kind regards,
JP


sales at linuxmagic

Sep 23, 2009, 10:40 AM

Post #20 of 35 (1566 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Slightly old thread, but we should clear any misconceptions. MagicSpam is
NOT anything like SpamAssassin. LinuxMagic has been developing Anti-Spam
solutions for the ISP and Telco markets for quite some time, focusing on the
SMTP transaction layer. This approach gives a more 'Zero Day' style
protection, as it can identify spam sources prior to accepting the email,
reducing backscatter and overhead.

Mail Servers should have the protection during the SMTP transaction, and we
have been porting our technology to other mail servers which do not have
this ability. Our first ports were to Qmail style mail servers, and since
then we have ported to many others including Linux and Windows platforms.

Just visit the forums, and see what customers have to say about this
product, as it speaks for itself. We have patent pending technology in
place, to provide for an especially unique methodology, and more
importantly, we make it very easy to install and operate.

http://www.magicspam.com and http://forums.wizard.ca/viewforum.php?f=16


Aaron Wolfe wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:11 PM, <robb [at] unrealstyle> wrote:
>> Does anybody have any experience with this product?
>>
>
> It appears *noone* has any experience with it... Google finds only 2
> links and they are on the company's own homepage.
>
>> My company wants to replace SpamAssassin with this product, due to
>> SpamAssassin being not being up to par other products.
>
> What is the evidence for this statement? I move customers from
> commercial solutions to my company's SA based filtering regularly and
> they are typically very impressed with what we can do for them with
> Spamassassin.
>
>>
>> My argument is that people we give SpamAssassin to have no clue how to
>> use
>> it and what it's designed to do, therefore they think it sucks.
>>
>
> Why would your users even need to know you are using SA? How are they
> supposed to "use" it? Just configure it to make spam go away and they
> should be OK with that. You can set up some sort of quarantine or
> tagging system but people generally aren't going to use it much.
>
>>
>>
>>
>
> From what I can find of the company behind this Magic thing, it looks
> like their products are repackaged open source software. (Their
> "MagicMail" product appears to be qmail). There's a pretty decent
> change they are selling you Spamassassin anyway :)
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/MagicSpam-tp19439845p25531228.html
Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


uhlar at fantomas

Sep 23, 2009, 1:10 PM

Post #21 of 35 (1561 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

On 23.09.09 10:40, linuxmagic wrote:
> Slightly old thread, but we should clear any misconceptions. MagicSpam is
> NOT anything like SpamAssassin. LinuxMagic has been developing Anti-Spam
> solutions for the ISP and Telco markets for quite some time, focusing on the
> SMTP transaction layer. This approach gives a more 'Zero Day' style
> protection, as it can identify spam sources prior to accepting the email,
> reducing backscatter and overhead.
>
> Mail Servers should have the protection during the SMTP transaction, and we
> have been porting our technology to other mail servers which do not have
> this ability. Our first ports were to Qmail style mail servers, and since
> then we have ported to many others including Linux and Windows platforms.
>
> Just visit the forums, and see what customers have to say about this
> product, as it speaks for itself. We have patent pending technology in
> place, to provide for an especially unique methodology, and more
> importantly, we make it very easy to install and operate.
>
> http://www.magicspam.com and http://forums.wizard.ca/viewforum.php?f=16

and where may I find some usefull info, except positive feedbacks in the
forum and marketing bullsh*t on the page?

> Aaron Wolfe wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:11 PM, <robb [at] unrealstyle> wrote:
> >> Does anybody have any experience with this product?
> >>
> >
> > It appears *noone* has any experience with it... Google finds only 2
> > links and they are on the company's own homepage.
> >
> >> My company wants to replace SpamAssassin with this product, due to
> >> SpamAssassin being not being up to par other products.
> >
> > What is the evidence for this statement? I move customers from
> > commercial solutions to my company's SA based filtering regularly and
> > they are typically very impressed with what we can do for them with
> > Spamassassin.
> >
> >>
> >> My argument is that people we give SpamAssassin to have no clue how to
> >> use
> >> it and what it's designed to do, therefore they think it sucks.
> >>
> >
> > Why would your users even need to know you are using SA? How are they
> > supposed to "use" it? Just configure it to make spam go away and they
> > should be OK with that. You can set up some sort of quarantine or
> > tagging system but people generally aren't going to use it much.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > From what I can find of the company behind this Magic thing, it looks
> > like their products are repackaged open source software. (Their
> > "MagicMail" product appears to be qmail). There's a pretty decent
> > change they are selling you Spamassassin anyway :)

--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar [at] fantomas ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
Due to unexpected conditions Windows 2000 will be released
in first quarter of year 1901


tedm at ipinc

Sep 23, 2009, 2:09 PM

Post #22 of 35 (1561 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
> On 23.09.09 10:40, linuxmagic wrote:
>> Slightly old thread, but we should clear any misconceptions. MagicSpam is
>> NOT anything like SpamAssassin. LinuxMagic has been developing Anti-Spam
>> solutions for the ISP and Telco markets for quite some time, focusing on the
>> SMTP transaction layer. This approach gives a more 'Zero Day' style
>> protection, as it can identify spam sources prior to accepting the email,
>> reducing backscatter and overhead.
>>
>> Mail Servers should have the protection during the SMTP transaction, and we
>> have been porting our technology to other mail servers which do not have
>> this ability. Our first ports were to Qmail style mail servers, and since
>> then we have ported to many others including Linux and Windows platforms.
>>
>> Just visit the forums, and see what customers have to say about this
>> product, as it speaks for itself. We have patent pending technology in
>> place, to provide for an especially unique methodology, and more
>> importantly, we make it very easy to install and operate.
>>
>> http://www.magicspam.com and http://forums.wizard.ca/viewforum.php?f=16
>
> and where may I find some usefull info, except positive feedbacks in the
> forum and marketing bullsh*t on the page?
>

Now, now. It's been said many times that there's a whole host of
corporate managers out there who are too incompetent/timid/whatever to
ever employ any solution in their enterprise that doesn't have a vendor
somewhere that they are paying money to. This is a corporate mindset
thing, and IT managers with that mindset are not going to give a rat's
ass if there's community forums or not.

Those managers operate under the assumption that I'm going to bring
this vendor in and he's going to make his stuff work, and all I'm
going to do is pay him whatever he asks for with my employers money,
and by God if he makes me look bad by not getting his stuff to work,
then I'll sue him for every penny I sent to him and then some.

If LinuxMagic wants to take a bunch of open source stuff and make it
work for those people, more power to them. And if they kick some
development work back to the open source projects that they used as
a base, then fan tas-tilly-astic.

LM doesn't put pricing on their website for their stuff so that
immediately puts them in the category of "if you have to ask you can't
afford it" just like those fancy French restaurants out there.

I don't dine there, and it sounds like you don't either, so why
waste your breath bitching at those who do?

Ted


rwmaillists at googlemail

Sep 23, 2009, 3:36 PM

Post #23 of 35 (1561 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:40:11 -0700 (PDT)
linuxmagic <sales [at] linuxmagic> wrote:

>
> Slightly old thread, but we should clear any misconceptions.
> MagicSpam is NOT anything like SpamAssassin. LinuxMagic has been
> developing Anti-Spam solutions for the ISP and Telco markets for
> quite some time, focusing on the SMTP transaction layer. This
> approach gives a more 'Zero Day' style protection, as it can identify
> spam sources prior to accepting the email, reducing backscatter and
> overhead.

None of that really distinguishes it from SpamAssassin, people have
been using SA that way for many years.

Incidently the point about backscatter is wrong. The traditional
approach of classifying, and then discarding or filing to a spam folder,
produces zero backscatter from spam. Backscatter is actually caused by
rejecting at the SMTP level - when it's done on the wrong
SMTP transaction.


tedm at ipinc

Sep 23, 2009, 3:54 PM

Post #24 of 35 (1555 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

RW wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:40:11 -0700 (PDT)
> linuxmagic <sales [at] linuxmagic> wrote:
>
>> Slightly old thread, but we should clear any misconceptions.
>> MagicSpam is NOT anything like SpamAssassin. LinuxMagic has been
>> developing Anti-Spam solutions for the ISP and Telco markets for
>> quite some time, focusing on the SMTP transaction layer. This
>> approach gives a more 'Zero Day' style protection, as it can identify
>> spam sources prior to accepting the email, reducing backscatter and
>> overhead.
>
> None of that really distinguishes it from SpamAssassin, people have
> been using SA that way for many years.
>
> Incidently the point about backscatter is wrong. The traditional
> approach of classifying, and then discarding or filing to a spam folder,
> produces zero backscatter from spam. Backscatter is actually caused by
> rejecting at the SMTP level - when it's done on the wrong
> SMTP transaction.
>

Say what?!?!?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_(e-mail)

"...The recipient mail servers then use the (potentially forged)
sender's address to attempt a good-faith effort to report the problem to
the apparent sender...."

There's 2 separate and independent SMTP transactions here.

The first is the spammer to the recipient mailserver.

The second is the recipient mailserver to the apparent sender.

"rejecting at the SMTP level" makes no sense at all in your context.

Ted


guenther at rudersport

Sep 23, 2009, 3:55 PM

Post #25 of 35 (1561 views)
Permalink
Re: MagicSpam [In reply to]

On Wed, 2009-09-23 at 23:36 +0100, RW wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:40:11 -0700 (PDT) <sales [at] linuxmagic> wrote:
>
> > Slightly old thread, but we should clear any misconceptions.

Indeed, it is. A *year* old.

> > MagicSpam is NOT anything like SpamAssassin. LinuxMagic has been

Thanks for pointing that out. So you still need SA. ;)

> > developing Anti-Spam solutions for the ISP and Telco markets for
> > quite some time, focusing on the SMTP transaction layer. This
> > approach gives a more 'Zero Day' style protection, as it can identify
> > spam sources prior to accepting the email, reducing backscatter and
> > overhead.
>
> None of that really distinguishes it from SpamAssassin, people have
> been using SA that way for many years.

What I like most is the quotes around the "zero day" used by sales. Yes,
indeed, sales! :) Which eloquently points out the fact is has nothing,
really nada, to do with the term "zero day" as used by anyone into
security.

Thanks for highlighting the buzz-words.


--
char *t="\10pse\0r\0dtu\0.@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4";
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;i<l;i++){ i%8? c<<=1:
(c=*++x); c&128 && (s+=h); if (!(h>>=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}

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