Mailing List Archive: Quagga: Users

Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes

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paul at jakma

Mar 27, 2012, 8:47 AM

Post #1 of 9 (364 views)
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Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Outback Dingo wrote:

> I dont think its about closing any of the code off, I think its more
> about how someone can simple add other added parameters or restrictions
> on the code base which was originally a more open unrestricted license

Please see:

http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=quagga.git;a=blob;f=babeld/LICENCE

as should be clear from this file, we have NOT tried to close off the code
to the standalone, MIT/X11 licensed version of babeld which is independent
of Quagga: we will require that contributions to Quagga babeld/ be MIT/X11
licensed.

We have followed these SFLC guidelines, which I believe are best practice:

https://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2007/gpl-non-gpl-collaboration.html

regards,
--
Paul Jakma paul [at] jakma twitter: @pjakma PGP: 64A2FF6A
Fortune:
"Today's robots are very primitive, capable of understanding only a few
simple instructions such as 'go left', 'go right', and 'build car'."
--John Sladek
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jch at pps

Mar 27, 2012, 10:07 AM

Post #2 of 9 (338 views)
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Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes [In reply to]

> The primary reason for using MIT/X11/BSD is precisely to allow others
> to *relicense* the code as they wish.

This is correct.

Please read my initial mail again. At no point have I argued the
legality of Paul's actions. I'm simply stating that I find his actions
rude.

And I don't enjoy working with rude people.

-- Juliusz
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paul at jakma

Mar 27, 2012, 11:25 AM

Post #3 of 9 (338 views)
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Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes [In reply to]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:

> Please read my initial mail again. At no point have I argued the
> legality of Paul's actions. I'm simply stating that I find his actions
> rude.

> And I don't enjoy working with rude people.

Thanks for that.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma paul [at] jakma @pjakma Key ID: 64A2FF6A
Fortune:
Internet shut down due to maintainance
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paul at jakma

Mar 27, 2012, 11:44 AM

Post #4 of 9 (336 views)
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Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes [In reply to]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:

> Please read my initial mail again. At no point have I argued the
> legality of Paul's actions. I'm simply stating that I find his actions
> rude.

You chose to use MIT/X11 for code that depends on other GPL code. You did
so because you told us you hate dealing with licensing hassles. You then
wanted us to merge it. In effect, you left the hassle for us to deal with.
You *were* involved in discussions about this, and about the options we
felt were open to us - but you asked not to be involved in those, after
making it clear you wanted the code to remain MIT/X11.

We (not just David Lamparter and I either, Greg Troxel is also an active
maintainer, guidance wise) spent a good bit of time and energy trying to
deal with this the last month+. We have tried to accommodate your wishes
as much as we can.

Again, it's *not* just the licence for your software at play here. We have
to meet the licenses from *other* people's code too. We've done so while
*still* going out of our way to ensure future contributions remain
available to you under MIT/X11.

It's just bizarre to call that rude, sorry - unless you think we're
supposed to put your non-binding desires above the *binding* conditions of
*other people's licences* (in addition to your licence).

Perhaps in time you'll see why we had to do this.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma paul [at] jakma @pjakma Key ID: 64A2FF6A
Fortune:
Cache miss - please take better aim next time
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tyler at tolaris

Mar 28, 2012, 1:56 AM

Post #5 of 9 (337 views)
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Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes [In reply to]

On 2012-03-27 18:07, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
> Please read my initial mail again. At no point have I argued the
> legality of Paul's actions. I'm simply stating that I find his actions
> rude.

Hi Juliusz,

What would you have preferred Paul to do instead? Not merge the code at all?

Regards,
Tyler

--
"The fundamental article of my political creed is that despotism, or
unlimited sovereignty, or absolute power, is the same in a majority of
a popular assembly, an aristocratical council, an oligarchical junto,
and a single emperor. Equally arbitrary, cruel, bloody, and in every
respect diabolical."
-- John Adams
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jch at pps

Mar 28, 2012, 6:07 AM

Post #6 of 9 (328 views)
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Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes [In reply to]

Now that I've set the record straight, there's hardly any point to
continuing this thread.

> What would you have preferred Paul to do instead? Not merge the code at all?

The respectful thing to do would have been to give us the choice between
adding GPL headers or not getting merged. Adding the GPL headers to our
code behind our backs is rude.

Please, let's not continue this thread.

-- Juliusz
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quagga at marton

Mar 28, 2012, 7:24 AM

Post #7 of 9 (333 views)
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Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes [In reply to]

2012.03.28. 15:07 keltezéssel, Juliusz Chroboczek írta:
> Now that I've set the record straight, there's hardly any point to
> continuing this thread.
> ...
> Please, let's not continue this thread.

As a complete outsider (quagga user) I have to ask you to not be so
"rude"! You started this thread (on a "-users" list, not "-dev"!). If
your original message wouldn't contain the first part (which is not our
business and considered by me as a rant), it would be fair to ask us not
to continue this thread. But, hey! You poured this on us and we are
curious - especially that you did not answer (at least here) Paul.

Your request could be reversed: please, don't start threads like this!

Thanks,

Peter
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paul at jakma

Mar 28, 2012, 8:14 AM

Post #8 of 9 (332 views)
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Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes [In reply to]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:

> The respectful thing to do would have been to give us the choice between
> adding GPL headers or not getting merged. Adding the GPL headers to our
> code behind our backs is rude.

1. We did consult with you about the options, several times. We stopped
including you after you told us that you had no wish to discuss licensing
further.

2. We considered not merging. However, we decided that it would, on
balance, be better for everyone to do the merge. We agreed it was better
for the community and Quagga generally to have a "safe" babeld published
through our tree, than to not merge and have just "unclear" versions out
there (in trees that are not ours).

Where "safe" means:

"We're reasonably confident all applicable licences are being honoured,
and best practices followed"

while "unclear" means:

"We couldn't get non-lawyer programmers involved to all agree this is
definitely safe, and we couldn't get a lawyer to tell us it's safe
either, indeed the SFLC lawyer we asked expressed some doubt."

regards,
--
Paul Jakma paul [at] jakma twitter: @pjakma PGP: 64A2FF6A
Fortune:
When a lot of remedies are suggested for a disease, that means it can't
be cured.
-- Anton Chekhov, "The Cherry Orchard"
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tyler at tolaris

Mar 28, 2012, 8:26 AM

Post #9 of 9 (332 views)
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Re: [Babel-users] Babeld merged with GPL headers against copyright holders' wishes [In reply to]

Thank you for trying to do the right thing, Paul. I'm just a user, but I
think you handled this in the most ethical way possible.

Regards,
Tyler

On 2012-03-28 16:14, Paul Jakma wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
>
>> The respectful thing to do would have been to give us the choice between
>> adding GPL headers or not getting merged. Adding the GPL headers to our
>> code behind our backs is rude.
>
> 1. We did consult with you about the options, several times. We stopped
> including you after you told us that you had no wish to discuss licensing
> further.
>
> 2. We considered not merging. However, we decided that it would, on
> balance, be better for everyone to do the merge. We agreed it was better
> for the community and Quagga generally to have a "safe" babeld published
> through our tree, than to not merge and have just "unclear" versions out
> there (in trees that are not ours).
>
> Where "safe" means:
>
> "We're reasonably confident all applicable licences are being honoured,
> and best practices followed"
>
> while "unclear" means:
>
> "We couldn't get non-lawyer programmers involved to all agree this is
> definitely safe, and we couldn't get a lawyer to tell us it's safe
> either, indeed the SFLC lawyer we asked expressed some doubt."
>
> regards,

--
"If we don't believe in free expression for people we despise, we don't
believe in it at all."
-- Noam Chomsky
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