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maxxx at anime-h

Oct 12, 2003, 9:22 AM

Post #1 of 13 (1834 views)
Permalink
CC: to list?

Greetings.

I'm a new subscriber. Is it normal on this list to RE: to messages'
authors and only CC: to the list? This is the first time I've seen
such a custom, and it's fairly unpleasant, as it does a very good job
at preventing me from easily filtering the list's messages to an
appropriate folder...

Or is it just me seeing something wrong?

--
|\ /| \~~~/ \~~~/
| \/ | /\ > < \~/ > < ICQ# 3146019
|____| /__\ /___\ /_\ /___\ IQ# 3.14159
Indyki są złe!


qmail at discworld

Oct 12, 2003, 3:07 PM

Post #2 of 13 (1764 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

MaXxX <maxxx [at] anime-h> wrote:
>
> I'm a new subscriber. Is it normal on this list to RE: to messages'
> authors and only CC: to the list?

Don't know about others; I reply to the list, no cc: involved. You can try to
influence others' decision about where replies go by setting Mail-Followup-To:
appropriately.

> it does a very good job at preventing me from easily filtering the list's
> messages to an appropriate folder...

Sounds like your mail filtering software is broken. Every list message
contains many invariant clues you could use to reliably filter list messages;
try the Mailing-List: header as an example.

Charles
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Cazabon <qmail [at] discworld>
GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.ca/~charlesc/software/
Read http://www.qcc.ca/~charlesc/writings/12-steps-to-qmail-list-bliss.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


maxxx at anime-h

Oct 13, 2003, 3:22 AM

Post #3 of 13 (1767 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

On Monday, October 13, 2003, at 16:07 -0600 (while it was 00:07 where
I live), you jotted down the following text:

> Don't know about others; I reply to the list, no cc: involved. You can try to
> influence others' decision about where replies go by setting Mail-Followup-To:
> appropriately.

Ah-ha!
This list does not add any kind of "reply-to:" by itself! That is
probably one of the things that fooled me. All other lists I'm on -
and believe me, there's quite a bunch - add a Reply-To: header line by
themselves, so that a quick reply to a message passing through the
list gets sent to the list as well, without extra tinkering on the
user's side.

Another annoying issue is the qsecretary that pops up after every
single message I send to the list. Is there a way to confirm this
blasted thing once and for all, so that it please leaves me the heck
alone?

--
|\ /| \~~~/ \~~~/
| \/ | /\ > < \~/ > < ICQ# 3146019
|____| /__\ /___\ /_\ /___\ IQ# 3.14159
Confucius say: Man with an itchy butt have smelly fingers.


lweldon at welcoin

Oct 13, 2003, 4:42 AM

Post #4 of 13 (1778 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 06:22, MaXxX wrote:
> On Monday, October 13, 2003, at 16:07 -0600 (while it was 00:07 where
> I live), you jotted down the following text:
>
[snip]
> Another annoying issue is the qsecretary that pops up after every
> single message I send to the list. Is there a way to confirm this
> blasted thing once and for all, so that it please leaves me the heck
> alone?

What you see is what you get.

See Charles' sig for a link to a program he wrote called pymsgauth...
http://www.qcc.ca/~charlesc/software/

--
Larry Weldon <lweldon [at] welcoin>


maxxx at anime-h

Oct 13, 2003, 6:05 AM

Post #5 of 13 (1776 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

On Monday, October 13, 2003, at 07:42 -0400 (while it was 13:42 where
I live), you jotted down what is below:

> What you see is what you get.

> See Charles' sig for a link to a program he wrote called pymsgauth...
> http://www.qcc.ca/~charlesc/software/

Still it puzzles me to see a list so bent on not receiving messages :)
Qsecretary, no reply-to nor a subject [qmail] entry added...
This is not mine to decide anyway, so I might as well suck it up and
accept it the way it is.

Though the lack of a Reply-To: insterted is annoying as I now keep
getting bounces from a "greiner.valerian(at)voila.fr" who's over
quota and subscribed to this list.

--
|\ /| \~~~/ \~~~/
| \/ | /\ > < \~/ > < ICQ# 3146019
|____| /__\ /___\ /_\ /___\ IQ# 3.14159
There are two ways to write error-free programs; only the third one
works.


nelson at crynwr

Oct 13, 2003, 6:52 AM

Post #6 of 13 (1775 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

The problem with adding a reply-to, or not adding a reply-to is that
both answers are wrong. Neither choice works well. If you set
reply-to pointing to the list, and you write a private reply (like I'm
doing now), then using the MUA's "Reply" command sends mail to the
list. Most MUAs have no convenient way to override the Reply-To and
reply only to the author of the email. If you DON'T sent reply-to
pointing to the list, and instead use the "Reply-To-All" function, the
sender gets another copy. Most MUAs have no convenient way to reply
only to the list.

The right decision to make is to add a "Reply-to-List" function to
your MUA, which replies to the address in the To: header. If you're
stuck using software you can't change, then obviously you have to (and
should!) lobby the creator of that software for this change. Feel
free to forward this message for them.
-russ

MaXxX writes:
> On Monday, October 13, 2003, at 16:07 -0600 (while it was 00:07 where
> I live), you jotted down the following text:
>
> > Don't know about others; I reply to the list, no cc: involved. You can try to
> > influence others' decision about where replies go by setting Mail-Followup-To:
> > appropriately.
>
> Ah-ha!
> This list does not add any kind of "reply-to:" by itself! That is
> probably one of the things that fooled me. All other lists I'm on -
> and believe me, there's quite a bunch - add a Reply-To: header line by
> themselves, so that a quick reply to a message passing through the
> list gets sent to the list as well, without extra tinkering on the
> user's side.
>
> Another annoying issue is the qsecretary that pops up after every
> single message I send to the list. Is there a way to confirm this
> blasted thing once and for all, so that it please leaves me the heck
> alone?
>
> --
> |\ /| \~~~/ \~~~/
> | \/ | /\ > < \~/ > < ICQ# 3146019
> |____| /__\ /___\ /_\ /___\ IQ# 3.14159
> Confucius say: Man with an itchy butt have smelly fingers.
>


nelson at crynwr

Oct 13, 2003, 7:20 AM

Post #7 of 13 (1784 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

Russell Nelson writes:
> The problem with adding a reply-to, or not adding a reply-to is that
> both answers are wrong. Neither choice works well. If you set
> reply-to pointing to the list, and you write a private reply (like I'm
> doing now),

Damn, sorry, I meant to send that privately to MaXxX.

(This little bit of usually-absent psychodrama has been brought to
you by the Reply-To: header, which the qmail mailing list doesn't have).

--
--My blog is at angry-economist.russnelson.com | Can I recommend python?
Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | Just a thought.
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | -Dr. Jamey Hicks
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX |


ml at wrinkledog

Oct 13, 2003, 8:03 AM

Post #8 of 13 (1771 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

On Monday, October 13, 2003, at 07:20 AM, Russell Nelson wrote:

> Russell Nelson writes:
>> The problem with adding a reply-to, or not adding a reply-to is that
>> both answers are wrong. Neither choice works well. If you set
>> reply-to pointing to the list, and you write a private reply (like I'm
>> doing now),
>
> Damn, sorry, I meant to send that privately to MaXxX.

Case in point, eh?
Too funny...
:-)

~ml


qmail at discworld

Oct 13, 2003, 9:46 AM

Post #9 of 13 (1768 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

MaXxX <maxxx [at] anime-h> wrote:
>
> > You can try to influence others' decision about where replies go by
> > setting Mail-Followup-To: appropriately.
>
> Ah-ha! This list does not add any kind of "reply-to:" by itself!

No. See http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html .

> Another annoying issue is the qsecretary

There's good reasons for it; see the list archives for explanations of why it
has to be this way. You can find software to automate this process for you at
the link in my .sig below.

Charles
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Cazabon <qmail [at] discworld>
GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.ca/~charlesc/software/
Read http://www.qcc.ca/~charlesc/writings/12-steps-to-qmail-list-bliss.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


maxxx at anime-h

Oct 13, 2003, 1:02 PM

Post #10 of 13 (1773 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

On Monday, October 13, 2003, at 10:20 -0400 (while it was 16:20 where
I live), you scribbled the following text:

> Damn, sorry, I meant to send that privately to MaXxX.

But I didn't have a Reply-To: header in the message you replied to, so
I don't know why in the world you replied erroneously to the list :)

Meanwhile, Charles Cazabon wrote:

> See http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html .

My MUA, The Bat, has an option to "reply to sender". Some MUAs have
Reply only to author and Group Reply for, well, group replies - and
some have Reply to the reply-to: field and Reply to Author to the
from: field. I see no reason why a particular style of mailers should
be officially preferred over another.

Now, as I would be fairly surprised to find a munged Reply-To: header
on an announcement-style list, or even a matchmaking list, where
hardly anybody replies publicly - what I expected here was encouraging
the replying to the list, so that, as the subscribers saw the original
question, they'll also see the solutions offered. I'l pretty sick of
some mailing lists where someone asks "How can I do this and that",
then there's three days of silence, and finally a response by the
asker himself, "Thank you John Doe, your solution worked". I'd figure
that a mailing list about the world's second most popular MTA would
encourage sharing knowledge, instead of encouraging keeping it private
("answer to the list only if you feel a special need to"). But, well,
go figure. It's way offtopic now, anyway, so if someone tells me to
shut up, I'll do.

Oh, speaking of mailing list setup correctness - what about fields
such as List-Id:, List-Unsubscribe:, List-Post:, List-Help:,
List-Subscribe:, Sender:, and Errors-To: ? Why aren't they set up
either? :)

--
|\ /| \~~~/ \~~~/
| \/ | /\ > < \~/ > < ICQ# 3146019
|____| /__\ /___\ /_\ /___\ IQ# 3.14159
A lost inch of gold may be found; a lost inch of time, never.


nelson at crynwr

Oct 13, 2003, 1:31 PM

Post #11 of 13 (1775 views)
Permalink
Re: CC: to list? [In reply to]

MaXxX writes:
> But I didn't have a Reply-To: header in the message you replied to, so
> I don't know why in the world you replied erroneously to the list :)

But you wanted one there, so I was acting as if you did. Then I hit
the key that sends a private reply to the author, and lo and behold,
it went to the list. Suck! But then I wouldn't be the first person
to do that.

> Now, as I would be fairly surprised to find a munged Reply-To: header
> on an announcement-style list, or even a matchmaking list, where
> hardly anybody replies publicly - what I expected here was encouraging
> the replying to the list,

We do encourage people to reply to the list. You should use the
"Reply to List" function of your MUA. If you MUA has no such feature,
you should demand it from the author. Failing that, you should use the
"Reply to All" function, and remove any extraneous recipients by hand.

The "Reply" function is for private replies. List owners or
contributors that want to compensate for broken MUAs that lack a
"Reply to List" function will insert a Reply-To: header, but that's
the wrong fix. It's a kludge. When you fix things in the wrong
place, you get fixes upon fixes, and your system comes crashing down
sooner than it should.

--
--My blog is at angry-economist.russnelson.com | Can I recommend python?
Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | Just a thought.
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | -Dr. Jamey Hicks
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX |


eric.woodworth at fairmarket

Oct 13, 2003, 1:49 PM

Post #12 of 13 (1772 views)
Permalink
RE: CC: to list? [In reply to]

Hi all,

I'm having a problem that I hope you can help me with. I have 4 qmail
boxes that have worked flawlessly for 4 years. Over the weekend mail has
stopped flowing and I see a great many of these messages in the qmail-smtpd
log:

@400000003f8ac4210a3699e4 tcpserver: pid 9694 from 10.208.144.4
@400000003f8ac4210a3699e4 tcpserver: warning: dropping connection, unable to
get local address: connection reset

The error always comes with that single IP address in front of it. That IP
address is the default gateway for my mail servers. Connections from my
servers seems to work fine but they come in from a different network on a
different interface.

I've read the man pages for tcpserver, I've googled this, and I've searched
the archive and I can't find what this error means. I only found 1 other
place where somebody asked a question close to this one but it didn't seem
like anybody replied to him at the time.

If anybody could help me out I'd greatly appreciate it. Just based on the
logs, the line that shows as the warning should be, if there were no error,
a line that shows the environmental variables tcpserver was passing on to
qmail. Can anybody think of a reason why tcpserver would be unable to get
it's local address? Does that error mean what it looks like it means?

Thanks all.


ps I originally sent this message from my hotmail account, but it doesn't
seem to have made it to the list so I'm resending (does the list block
hotmail? Can't say that I blame it if it does.) In the time between then
and now this problem has fixed itself and my mail is flowing properly again
without any intervention on my part. Multiple machines went down and then
multiple machines came back up and I can't figure out why. Anybody have any
ideas? I hate when things break and I don't know why.


eric.woodworth at fairmarket

Oct 13, 2003, 1:55 PM

Post #13 of 13 (1724 views)
Permalink
RE: CC: to list? [In reply to]

whoops...sorry about the subject line. Damn that reply button.

-----Original Message-----
From: Woodworth, Eric [mailto:eric.woodworth [at] fairmarket]
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 4:50 PM
To: qmail [at] list
Subject: RE: CC: to list?


Hi all,

I'm having a problem that I hope you can help me with. I have 4 qmail
boxes that have worked flawlessly for 4 years. Over the weekend mail has
stopped flowing and I see a great many of these messages in the qmail-smtpd
log:

@400000003f8ac4210a3699e4 tcpserver: pid 9694 from 10.208.144.4
@400000003f8ac4210a3699e4 tcpserver: warning: dropping connection, unable to
get local address: connection reset

The error always comes with that single IP address in front of it. That IP
address is the default gateway for my mail servers. Connections from my
servers seems to work fine but they come in from a different network on a
different interface.

I've read the man pages for tcpserver, I've googled this, and I've searched
the archive and I can't find what this error means. I only found 1 other
place where somebody asked a question close to this one but it didn't seem
like anybody replied to him at the time.

If anybody could help me out I'd greatly appreciate it. Just based on the
logs, the line that shows as the warning should be, if there were no error,
a line that shows the environmental variables tcpserver was passing on to
qmail. Can anybody think of a reason why tcpserver would be unable to get
it's local address? Does that error mean what it looks like it means?

Thanks all.


ps I originally sent this message from my hotmail account, but it doesn't
seem to have made it to the list so I'm resending (does the list block
hotmail? Can't say that I blame it if it does.) In the time between then
and now this problem has fixed itself and my mail is flowing properly again
without any intervention on my part. Multiple machines went down and then
multiple machines came back up and I can't figure out why. Anybody have any
ideas? I hate when things break and I don't know why.

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