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Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using)

 

 

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rosuav at gmail

Jun 17, 2012, 8:51 AM

Post #51 of 58 (918 views)
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Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers ?? la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using) [In reply to]

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Chris Fox <chris [at] robotninja> wrote:
> On 17/06/2012 03:42, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> I want to promote Linux as a replacement for Windows. But I do not
>> see that Linux needs to be able to run Internet Explorer in order
>> to do that. Maybe when people move to a replacement, they need to
>> learn a slightly different way of doing things; and in this case, I
>> would strongly recommend the "build your UI in code" method.
>>
>> ChrisA
>
> So you use wget on linux and read the html code in a terminal? That
> would seem to be a reasonable analogy.
>
> (a different) Chris

Well, I have been known to use wget, a simple HTML-to-text converter,
and watch... made for a fairly simple monitor for something that had a
browser-based status display. But no, I don't go to that extent. That
would be analogous to abolishing GUI frameworks altogether and
expecting everyone to use and write command-line tools. We're talking
here about building your own program, and whether or not you can use a
GUI to build a GUI. Most other interfaces aren't built using
themselves; look at web-based web site builders, they almost
universally suck (and those that don't suck are special-purpose
things, like MediaWiki, that just happen to be able to be used to
build a web site). WYSIWYG HTML editors have become rather better now
than they were (say) 10-15 years ago, but I still believe in
hand-writing HTML and CSS (or using straight-forward tools) for best
results.

ChrisA
(keeping the A(ngelico) on the name to distinguish from all the other
geeky Chrises, of whom there are a good few on this list)
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feliphil at gmx

Jun 19, 2012, 6:07 AM

Post #52 of 58 (904 views)
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Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using) [In reply to]

> >> No matter how cool it may seem to create simple GUIs manually or to
> >> write business letters using LaTeX: just try to persuade people to
> >> move from Word to LaTeX for business letters...
> >
> > Good example.
> >
> > I have done nearly exactly this* - but it was only possible thanks
> > to LyX.
>
> > *I moved not from Wugh, but from other software to LyX/LaTeX for
> > all my document processing.
> But of course, you were only doing so because you had LyX available,
> which is the equivalent of an easy-to-use GUI builder.

No need to argue here. This was exactly my point. :-)

> So maybe I should be more precise: just try to persuade people to move
> from Word to *pure* LaTeX for business letters...

Nearly impossible. And this was exactly my point. Again, no need to
argue here. :-)

The success of LyX (and TeXmacs and BaKoMaTeX and Scientific Word...)
proves imho that the LaTeX community had missed to offer a
"syntax-hiding"-GUI with LaTeX some 20 years ago.

And the lack of success of Python so far to replace, in your
application case, Labview, or, in my application case, all those
proprietary 4GL IDEs/frameworks/GUI builders (just check the success
that Realbasic has) proves imho that the Python community has totally
missed to address the vast crowd of potential users who are domain
experts in other domains than software development.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang
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albert at spenarnc

Jun 22, 2012, 8:53 AM

Post #53 of 58 (901 views)
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Re: Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using) [In reply to]

In article <jr4pcc$fl3$1 [at] dont-email>,
Kevin Walzer <kw [at] codebykevin> wrote:
>On 6/11/12 8:01 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> Tkinter is imho honestly the very best "argument" if you want to make
>> potential new users turn their backs away from Python for good. Just
>> show them one GUI implemented with it and, hey, wait, where are you
>> running to...
>
>Yes, Tkinter GUI's are very ugly.
>
>http://www.codebykevin.com/phynchronicity-running.png

I looked it up.

What you find ugly, I find unconfusing and clear.
If I compare it to usual on the web, it is the difference
between a waterfall side and an airport where the personell
is on strike. (Oh the noise, the noise is unbearable!).
I have not, nor intend to write gui things in Python,
I just give an impression.

[ I want my gui's to be functional, not beautiful. ]


>
>http://www.codebykevin.com/quickwho-main.png

>--
>Kevin Walzer

Groetjes Albert



--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert [at] sp&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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tjreedy at udel

Jun 22, 2012, 2:38 PM

Post #54 of 58 (902 views)
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Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers à la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using) [In reply to]

On 6/22/2012 11:53 AM, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> In article <jr4pcc$fl3$1 [at] dont-email>,
> Kevin Walzer <kw [at] codebykevin> wrote:
>> On 6/11/12 8:01 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>>> Tkinter is imho honestly the very best "argument" if you want to make
>>> potential new users turn their backs away from Python for good. Just
>>> show them one GUI implemented with it and, hey, wait, where are you
>>> running to...
>>
>> Yes, Tkinter GUI's are very ugly.
>> http://www.codebykevin.com/phynchronicity-running.png
>
> I looked it up.
>
> What you find ugly, I find unconfusing and clear.

Kevin Walzer is a tk expert. Perhaps you missing the sarcastic irony in
what he intended to be a refutation of Wolfgang Keller's comment ;-).

--
Terry Jan Reedy



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dihedral88888 at googlemail

Jun 22, 2012, 7:52 PM

Post #55 of 58 (902 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using) [In reply to]

Albert van der Horst於 2012年6月22日星期五UTC+8下午11時53分01秒寫道:
> In article <jr4pcc$fl3$1 [at] dont-email>,
> Kevin Walzer <kw [at] codebykevin> wrote:
> >On 6/11/12 8:01 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> >> Tkinter is imho honestly the very best "argument" if you want to make
> >> potential new users turn their backs away from Python for good. Just
> >> show them one GUI implemented with it and, hey, wait, where are you
> >> running to...
> >
> >Yes, Tkinter GUI's are very ugly.
> >
> >http://www.codebykevin.com/phynchronicity-running.png
>
> I looked it up.
>
> What you find ugly, I find unconfusing and clear.
> If I compare it to usual on the web, it is the difference
> between a waterfall side and an airport where the personell
> is on strike. (Oh the noise, the noise is unbearable!).
> I have not, nor intend to write gui things in Python,
> I just give an impression.
>
> [ I want my gui's to be functional, not beautiful. ]
>
>
> >
> >http://www.codebykevin.com/quickwho-main.png
>
> >--
> >Kevin Walzer
>
> Groetjes Albert
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
> Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
> albert [at] sp&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

I suggest you can use Python with QT to build some GUI and C++ with QT
for similar jobs of the commercial versions in order to test the tools.


Nowadays the GUI part is so cheap to build with so manny code generation tools, it is not the same as in the years before 2000.
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not_here at no-where

Jun 24, 2012, 2:11 PM

Post #56 of 58 (909 views)
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Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using) [In reply to]

On 6/19/2012 6:07 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> And the lack of success of Python so far to replace, in your
> application case, Labview, or, in my application case, all those
> proprietary 4GL IDEs/frameworks/GUI builders (just check the success
> that Realbasic has) proves imho that the Python community has totally
> missed to address the vast crowd of potential users who are domain
> experts in other domains than software development.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wolfgang

I have been compelled to occasionally use LV by my current
employer. I do not know if LabView is the disease or is a
symptom. It is an evil parasite and has resulted in a disaster
at my place of employment and another that I am aware.

As for 'designers' and 'builders', the discussion threads on
Python gui builders is legion. In the end, the consensus is
always to learn one and write the gui. Regardless of the
multitude of clever gui libraries, event code in this language
seems a bit contrived, and is attractive only to professional
programmers. But the community must know that the language is
used by hundreds of thousands of scientists and engineers that
have a job to do, and do not have the time and have no interest
in learning the frameworks du jour.

This is why I see test and manufacturing engineers refuse to
give up VB6 where Windows is required. I disagree with those
that say Python can be used as a VB6 replacement. And the touted
'interactive' feature of Python does nothing for gui coding.

It would not be difficult to convince me to commit homicide for
a Delphi-like Python gui machine that runs on a Linux box. I
have played with many - Boa, WxDes, Glade, Tk, Dabo, QtDesigner,
Card, etc.

Am currently experimenting with IronPython, because the factory
boss says no more Linux boxes on his production lines. And the
person that said Python is best tool for data acq/hw control
needs to get out more. Very dangerous. C first, Python second.
This is why I insist on only C and Python for the engineering
lab, and use one of three proven pre-coded Tk-based GUIs for
production and ATE drivers.

You want to argue with me? First come visit my employer's TJ
factory and watch the boys test 600kVA transformers or 250kVA
inverters. 150,000 A of fault current.

Brian


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cmpython at gmail

Jun 25, 2012, 3:15 PM

Post #57 of 58 (892 views)
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Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using) [In reply to]

> It would not be difficult to convince me to commit homicide for
> a Delphi-like Python gui machine that runs on a Linux box. I
> have played with many - Boa, WxDes, Glade, Tk, Dabo, QtDesigner,
> Card, etc.

Not sure whether you tried it enough on Linux, but Boa (which was
intended to be kind of Delphi for Python) *almost* runs OK on Linux.
There are a few workarounds to some of the problems and I have a list
of the remaining issues. But yes, it's not ideal to use on Linux yet
(I have done sort of OK with developing with it on Windows and then
using it on Linux to tidy up cross platform incompatibilities in
wxPython apps between Win and Linux).

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rustompmody at gmail

Jun 29, 2012, 8:26 PM

Post #58 of 58 (873 views)
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Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using) [In reply to]

On Jun 10, 3:36pm, Arnaud Delobelle <arno...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10 June 2012 07:16, rusi <rustompm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is worth a read in this context:http://osteele.com/archives/2004/11/ides
>
> Interesting! I definitely fall nicely at one extreme of this
> dichotomy. Every time I've tried to use an IDE, it's made me feel
> inadequate and I've quickly retreated to my comfort zone (emacs +
> xterm).

Here is a more recent discussion in the same vein:
http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/17/programmer-productivity-emacs-versus-intellij-idea/

Reddited here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/vqb9l/programmer_productivity_emacs_versus_intellij_idea/

> I felt inadequate because I felt like the IDE was hindering
> me rather than helping me. All I ask from the program that I use to
> write code is:
>
> * syntax highlighting
> * sensible auto-indenting
> * as little reliance on the mouse as possible
> * emacs key bindings :)

To some extent the new article just confirms the old Osteele one: viz.
Programmers stuck with java had better spend their time using the most
powerful tools to compensate for their inadequate language.

However it also indicates the opposite:
Benefits of sophisticated refactoring support are almost certainly
underestimated by users of vi/emacs.

>
> This article makes me feel more positive about my inability to feel
> comfortable in an IDE. Thanks for the link!
>
> --
> Arnaud

T
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