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Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack

 

 

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steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood

May 7, 2012, 8:54 PM

Post #1 of 42 (3430 views)
Permalink
Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack

A.k.a. "we had to destroy the project in order to save it".

http://technogems.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/pyjamas-hijacked.html


Seriously, this was a remarkably ham-fisted and foolish way to "resolve"
a dispute over the direction of an open source project. That's the sort
of thing that gives open source a bad reputation.

(The sad thing is, when closed source software developers do this sort of
thing, it gets blamed on "bad apples"; when open source developers do it,
it gets used as an indictment on the entire FOSS community.)



--
Steven
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


rosuav at gmail

May 7, 2012, 10:20 PM

Post #2 of 42 (3380 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python [at] pearwood> wrote:
> A.k.a. "we had to destroy the project in order to save it".
>
> http://technogems.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/pyjamas-hijacked.html

Great summary, very handily peppered with links to appropriate posts.

> Seriously, this was a remarkably ham-fisted and foolish way to "resolve"
> a dispute over the direction of an open source project. That's the sort
> of thing that gives open source a bad reputation.

I'd probably be on the side of the dissidents in terms of philosophy -
freedom is there to be used, but if it costs you too much (effort,
quality, etc) to use all-free-software, the cart's involved in equine
artistry. You want a wiki? Throw down MySQL and MediaWiki. Want
hosting? GitHub is fine. I don't restrict my hardware purchases to
"free BIOS or no sale".

But a backstabbing takeover is not doing anyone any good. Especially
not the reputation of the project. Here at work we have some
familiarity with Python, and my boss is just starting to learn
Javascript (after our main JS developer left); but there's no way that
I'm going to consider introducing pyjamas / pyjs until this is
resolved.

> (The sad thing is, when closed source software developers do this sort of
> thing, it gets blamed on "bad apples"; when open source developers do it,
> it gets used as an indictment on the entire FOSS community.)

It's not quite as mixed-standards as that. If you see Microsoft or
Apple charging a fortune for trivial upgrades and/or bug fixes, you
blame it on corporate development. And some low-quality software in
the FOSS market is acknowledged as "you get what you pay for",
although that one can backfire too. But yes, it's a harsh reality that
one open-source community's actions reflect badly on another. (Which
is why I want to be really REALLY careful of using the term "open
source" here at work. Just because we let people have the source code
to certain scripts etc does not mean we should use that term. Just
sayin'.)

I hope that pyjamas can be restored at some point to a single live
project. Whether that's headed by Luke Leighton or C Anthony Risinger
(neither of whom I know at all and thus I can't speak to either's
merits) or someone else, I don't particularly care, but frankly, I
don't think there's need in the world for a fork of such a project.
Aside from philosophical disagreements, what would be the differences
between the Luke fork and the Anthony fork? Could anyone explain, to a
prospective user, why s/he should pick one or the other? If not, the
projects need to merge, or else one will die a sad death of
stagnation.

ChrisA
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


wuwei23 at gmail

May 7, 2012, 10:37 PM

Post #3 of 42 (3357 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On May 8, 1:54pm, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Seriously, this was a remarkably ham-fisted and foolish way to "resolve"
> a dispute over the direction of an open source project. That's the sort
> of thing that gives open source a bad reputation.

The arrogance and sense of entitlement was so thick you could choke on
it. Here's a sampling from the circle jerk of self-justification that
flooded my inbox over the weekend:

"i did not need to consult Luke, nor would that have be productive"

No, it's generally _not_ productive to ask someone if you can steal
their project from them.

"i have retired Luke of the management duties, particularly, *above*
the source"

Who is this C Anthony Risinger asshole and in what way did he _hire_
the lead developer?

"What I have wondered is, what are effects of having the project
hostage to the whims of an individuals often illogically radical
software libre beliefs which are absolutely not up for discussion at
all with anyone."

What I'm wondering is: how is the new set up any different? Why were
Luke Leighton's philosophies/"whims" any more right or wrong than
those held by the new Gang of Dicks?

"Further more, the reason I think it's a bad idea to have this drawn
out discussion is that pretty much the main reason for this fork is
because of Luke leadership and project management decisions and
actions. To have discussions of why the fork was done would invariably
lead to quite a bit of personal attacks and petty arguments."

Apparently it's nicer to steal someone's work than be mean to them.

"I agree, Lex - this is all about moving on. This is a software
project, not a cult of personality."

Because recognising the effort of the lead developer is cult-like.

"My only quibble is with the term "fork." A fork is created when you
disagree with the technical direction of a project. That's not the
issue here. This is a reassignment of the project administration only
- a shuffling of responsibility among *current leaders* of the
community. There is no "divine right of kings" here."

My quibble is over the term "fork" too, as this is outright theft. I
don't remember the community acknowledging _any other leadership_ over
Luke Leighton's.

"I suspect Luke will be busy with other projects and not do much more
for Pyjamas/pyjs, Luke correct me if you see this and I am wrong."

How about letting the man make his own fucking decisions?

"All of you spamming the list with your unsubscribe attempts: Anthony
mentioned in a previous email that he's using mailman now"

Apparently it's the responsibility of the person who was subscribed
without their permission to find out the correct mechanism for
unsubscribing from that list.

"apparantly a bunch of people were marked as "POSTING" in the DB, but
not receiving mail (?)"

Oh I see, the sudden rush of email I received was due to an error in
the data they stole...

"Nobody wins if we spend any amount of time debating the details of
this transition, what's done is done."

Truly the justification of assholes.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


wuwei23 at gmail

May 7, 2012, 10:46 PM

Post #4 of 42 (3368 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

Even worse, here's what Risinger had to say when Leighton asked them
to stop sending him email:

"probably best not to feed the troll, Pascal -- especially one
overwrought and lost in high dudgeon -- they tend to brickwall common
reason and simple social advices."

"Luke has made his decision -- and burned all ties -- by pitching a
snit of hollow threats"

"i full-heartily recommend that everyone do exactly as Luke requests,
i.e. "cease and desist from all communications" with him, regarding
this project's past or future ..."

There's being an asshole, and then there's being an absolute fucking
asshole. It seems pretty clear which category this behaviour falls in.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


jameskhedley at gmail

May 8, 2012, 2:10 AM

Post #5 of 42 (3360 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

Agreed with pretty much all of that. It's third-world politics, lurching from one dictator to another. Risinger seems to have banned all discussion of the subject from the list too, I'm not posting anymore because I don't want to give him an excuse to wield his newly found banhammer.

But yeah, a lot of the commentary from the pro-rebel side ( not that any of them admit they had anything to do with it ) really does come across as being ill-informed and childish.

This story is on reddit, if anyone is that way inclined:

http://www.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/t5acr/project_hijacked_advice_from_experience_foss/
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


tim.wintle at teamrubber

May 8, 2012, 4:04 AM

Post #6 of 42 (3362 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On Tue, 2012-05-08 at 15:20 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
> I hope that pyjamas can be restored at some point to a single live
> project. Whether that's headed by Luke Leighton or C Anthony Risinger
> (neither of whom I know at all and thus I can't speak to either's
> merits) or someone else, I don't particularly care

I have met Luke (At Europython), and honestly it was his enthusiasm that
got me to look at pyjamas in the first place. To be fair I still haven't
used it in anger, but I've poked around a lot, it's been under
consideration for several bits of work.

Although I don't think I've met C Anthony Risinger, his behaviour has
seriously put me off the project - and if I consider using it in the
future I'm going to be "pricing in" the cost of maintaining a complete
local fork as part of the decision.

Tim

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


jeanpierreda at gmail

May 8, 2012, 6:43 AM

Post #7 of 42 (3366 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav [at] gmail> wrote:
> I hope that pyjamas can be restored at some point to a single live
> project. Whether that's headed by Luke Leighton or C Anthony Risinger
> (neither of whom I know at all and thus I can't speak to either's
> merits) or someone else, I don't particularly care, but frankly, I
> don't think there's need in the world for a fork of such a project.
> Aside from philosophical disagreements, what would be the differences
> between the Luke fork and the Anthony fork? Could anyone explain, to a
> prospective user, why s/he should pick one or the other? If not, the
> projects need to merge, or else one will die a sad death of
> stagnation.

There is no "both projects". there was Luke's project, and then
Risinger stole it and it's Risinger's project. There is only that one
thing -- Luke has no """fork""" of his own codebase.

I guess it won't die of stagnation, eh? It'll be a perfectly usable,
stable project, led by a thief.

-- Devin
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


rosuav at gmail

May 8, 2012, 6:47 AM

Post #8 of 42 (3362 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
<jeanpierreda [at] gmail> wrote:
> There is no "both projects". there was Luke's project, and then
> Risinger stole it and it's Risinger's project. There is only that one
> thing -- Luke has no """fork""" of his own codebase.

Presumably Luke could fork his own project, though. I haven't checked,
but presumably the source is properly managed, so it can be forked as
of any point in time.

But it's pretty nasty to have to fork your own project.

ChrisA
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


tjreedy at udel

May 8, 2012, 9:12 AM

Post #9 of 42 (3356 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On 5/8/2012 9:47 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
> <jeanpierreda [at] gmail> wrote:
>> There is no "both projects". there was Luke's project, and then
>> Risinger stole it and it's Risinger's project. There is only that one
>> thing -- Luke has no """fork""" of his own codebase.
>
> Presumably Luke could fork his own project, though. I haven't checked,
> but presumably the source is properly managed, so it can be forked as
> of any point in time.
>
> But it's pretty nasty to have to fork your own project.

You still have it backwards. Risinger forked the project with a new code
host and mailing list, but stole the name and and some data in the
process and made the false claim that his fork was the original. It is
not clear if he damaged anything in the process.

If Luke continues his original project, it would still be the true
pyjamas project, not a fork.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


rosuav at gmail

May 8, 2012, 9:42 AM

Post #10 of 42 (3350 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:12 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy [at] udel> wrote:
> On 5/8/2012 9:47 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
>> <jeanpierreda [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is no "both projects". there was Luke's project, and then
>>> Risinger stole it and it's Risinger's project. There is only that one
>>> thing -- Luke has no """fork""" of his own codebase.
>>
>>
>> Presumably Luke could fork his own project, though. I haven't checked,
>> but presumably the source is properly managed, so it can be forked as
>> of any point in time.
>>
>> But it's pretty nasty to have to fork your own project.
>
>
> You still have it backwards. Risinger forked the project with a new code
> host and mailing list, but stole the name and and some data in the process
> and made the false claim that his fork was the original. It is not clear if
> he damaged anything in the process.

Yes, but now that it's happened, the most obvious way forward is to
fork the hijacked project back to the original, given that the
hijacked one is being posted as the original.

> If Luke continues his original project, it would still be the true pyjamas
> project, not a fork.

Yeah, but if he doesn't have command of the domain any more, then
he'll likely be spawning it under a new name somewhere.

ChrisA
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


tjreedy at udel

May 8, 2012, 2:47 PM

Post #11 of 42 (3363 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On 5/8/2012 12:42 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:12 AM, Terry Reedy<tjreedy [at] udel> wrote:

>> You still have it backwards. Risinger forked the project with a new code
>> host and mailing list, but stole the name and and some data in the process
>> and made the false claim that his fork was the original. It is not clear if
>> he damaged anything in the process.
>
> Yes, but now that it's happened, the most obvious way forward is to
> fork the hijacked project back to the original, given that the
> hijacked one is being posted as the original.

Risinger's fork is NOT the original, no matter what his claim. People
should not give credit to his false claim or regard it as an
accomplished fact.

From what others have posted, it has a new code repository (that being
the ostensible reason for the fork), project site, and mailing list --
the latter two incompetently. Apparently, the only thing he has kept are
the domain and project names (the latter for sure not legitimately).

Luke has not abandoned pyjamas and has not, as of now, ceded ownership
of the name to anyone. I am pretty sure Luke he has no plans to adandon
his current codebase and and re-fork off of the Risinger et al revised
codebase.

>> If Luke continues his original project, it would still be the true pyjamas
>> project, not a fork.
>
> Yeah, but if he doesn't have command of the domain any more, then
> he'll likely be spawning it under a new name somewhere.

Yes, but so what? The domain name is not the project. Open source
projects change domain names all the time (though hopefully rarely for
any particular project).

--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


breamoreboy at yahoo

May 8, 2012, 3:55 PM

Post #12 of 42 (3355 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On 08/05/2012 22:47, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 5/8/2012 12:42 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:12 AM, Terry Reedy<tjreedy [at] udel> wrote:
>
>>> You still have it backwards. Risinger forked the project with a new code
>>> host and mailing list, but stole the name and and some data in the
>>> process
>>> and made the false claim that his fork was the original. It is not
>>> clear if
>>> he damaged anything in the process.
>>
>> Yes, but now that it's happened, the most obvious way forward is to
>> fork the hijacked project back to the original, given that the
>> hijacked one is being posted as the original.
>
> Risinger's fork is NOT the original, no matter what his claim. People
> should not give credit to his false claim or regard it as an
> accomplished fact.
>
> From what others have posted, it has a new code repository (that being
> the ostensible reason for the fork), project site, and mailing list --
> the latter two incompetently. Apparently, the only thing he has kept are
> the domain and project names (the latter for sure not legitimately).
>
> Luke has not abandoned pyjamas and has not, as of now, ceded ownership
> of the name to anyone. I am pretty sure Luke he has no plans to adandon
> his current codebase and and re-fork off of the Risinger et al revised
> codebase.
>
>>> If Luke continues his original project, it would still be the true
>>> pyjamas
>>> project, not a fork.
>>
>> Yeah, but if he doesn't have command of the domain any more, then
>> he'll likely be spawning it under a new name somewhere.
>
> Yes, but so what? The domain name is not the project. Open source
> projects change domain names all the time (though hopefully rarely for
> any particular project).
>

{Not replying To Terry Reedy or anybody else specifically, but didn't
know where to jump in]

Who cares, in the sense that zero people (apart from five(ish) morons)
will follow the hijacked project, while the vast majority will support
Luke as a matter of principal. I suggest the thieves be subjected to
this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Send_to_Coventry

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


tjreedy at udel

May 8, 2012, 6:35 PM

Post #13 of 42 (3364 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On 5/8/2012 5:47 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:

> From what others have posted, it has a new code repository (that being
> the ostensible reason for the fork), project site, and mailing list --
> the latter two incompetently. Apparently, the only thing he has kept are
> the domain and project names (the latter for sure not legitimately).

Update: the pyjs.org group (or member thereof) has registered pyjs as a
new project name on pypi and released pyjames0.8.1 as pyjs0.8.1. So they
seem not to be claiming the name 'pyjames', at least not on pypi.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


cyborgv2 at hotmail

May 9, 2012, 4:01 AM

Post #14 of 42 (3380 views)
Permalink
RE: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

Hi,

I'm not big Python user but like to keep a eye on this mailing list as there are a few subjects that can be applied to other languages and just for general interest (Yes, I'm a geek!!! lol)

This message thread has really shocked me: I've been a programmer for some thirty years and yes in the past I've had code/intellectual property stolen mainly by corporate bodies (well more like little upstart twats that cannot come up with ideas for themselves, acting in the name of a company.) I've never been able to do anything about it, proving that code and/or an idea has been stolen is not a simple thing to do... But surely in this case, as the project is so visibly the intellectual property of Luke that Risinger and his sheep are standing on the edge of a very large and loose cliff!

> To: python-list [at] python
> From: tjreedy [at] udel
> Subject: Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack
> Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 21:35:22 -0400
>
> On 5/8/2012 5:47 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
>
> > From what others have posted, it has a new code repository (that being
> > the ostensible reason for the fork), project site, and mailing list --
> > the latter two incompetently. Apparently, the only thing he has kept are
> > the domain and project names (the latter for sure not legitimately).
>
> Update: the pyjs.org group (or member thereof) has registered pyjs as a
> new project name on pypi and released pyjames0.8.1 as pyjs0.8.1. So they
> seem not to be claiming the name 'pyjames', at least not on pypi.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


anthony at xtfx

May 9, 2012, 4:02 AM

Post #15 of 42 (3374 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On Tuesday, May 8, 2012 4:10:13 AM UTC-5, james hedley wrote:
> Agreed with pretty much all of that. It's third-world politics, lurching from one dictator to another. Risinger seems to have banned all discussion of the subject from the list too, I'm not posting anymore because I don't want to give him an excuse to wield his newly found banhammer.

hello James,

i'm not really sure what you're referring too ... you appear to be making these things up. i have not banned anything, or even alluded to it, whatsoever. i asked that one specific mail not be commented upon, as a request; perhaps this is the dreaded bannhammer you speak of?

reading your accounts strewn about is interesting, what exactly are *your* motives? a simple curiosity, nothing more.

your comparison to gov'ts is pretty skewed i would say, you know this as well as i. regardless of what you think or know of me, i have a permanent track record of being pretty fair and receptive to virtually anything, and am involved in a wide range of projects. Luke is a talented developer, there is no doubt of this, but he is one of the most socially inept persons i have ever encountered. leading your users to statements such as this:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/pyjamas-dev/credo/pyjamas-dev/xzp4CCWhJN4/nQ3-emtYFVgJ

... dozens of times on several occasions, is truly incredible. other such behavior, eg. being the only person in the history of the webkit project to ever be *ejected* from contributing or communicating *at all*, is further testament to the deficiencies provoking this maneuver.

however, i have no interest in comparing or being compared. go read my notes again; i have a high level of respect for Luke in many capacities, and this has not changed.

lets make one thing perfectly clear; you are not the only one who cares of this project or wishes it to succeed. mistakes were made. problems were had. the decisions however, stands.

> But yeah, a lot of the commentary from the pro-rebel side ( not that any of them admit they had anything to do with it ) really does come across as being ill-informed and childish.

indeed, you have witnessed little chatter. however, barring your belief of such, i had received dozens of notes thanking me and attesting to a renewed impetus for action. the original goal was to purchase a domain and fork -- i made this very clear in my notes -- `uxpy.net`. however, the most respectable member of the commit IMO convinced me otherwise. names names, yes you want names? sorry :-(. alas, he, myself, and numerous others are still active and moving forward. the list is actually approaching 100 ... not the "4-5" you so graciously quoted. i am simply the point man willing to stand the flurry.

likewise, i did not "convince" the domain holder to give me the domain. not only was he already aware prior to me approaching him -- list member, passive -- he was more that willing to assist in reinstating the projects foundations and direction. he *was* the person who "left Luke in charge" ... why do you think he was the owner? as far as im concerned, the domain was already "hijacked"; this was, in good faith, intended as remedy.

this was not a easy or light decision, the dissonance exists to this day. the idea was to retain Luke, but he decided to play legal threats as the first card (which i'm afraid can only backfire), before he even knew of the domain changes. hge is not a victim here, nor is anyone else. so please, show some cognitive capacity by realizing this is not as black-and-white as you's like it to be.

when you decide to include yourself -- sooner, or later -- you are more than welcome.

@alex23 ... try reading a bit further. as a human i am subject to annoyance and frustration. i probably shouldn't have started the message in that manner, but the absurdity and absolute inaccurate statements being made were rather upsetting. you will note that i make it perfectly clear that Luke is a fantastic developer, and a great part of the team. this of course has neither waned nor faltered.

i encourage anyone willing to take the time to consult the archives, pyjamas' and elsewhere, as they are the only path to proper answers. this will impact the project in both known and untold ways, but we have a great number of minds willing to push beyond.

--

C Anthony
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


fetchinson at googlemail

May 9, 2012, 4:34 AM

Post #16 of 42 (3369 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

> the original goal was to purchase a domain and fork --
> i made this very clear in my notes -- `uxpy.net`. however, the most
> respectable member of the commit IMO convinced me otherwise.

(I'm a total outsider, never used pyjs.)

Anthony, you never explained what the reasoning behind the advice of
the "most respectable member of the commit" was. Why didn't you
finally buy the new domain name, pick a new name, and fork the
project?

As it stands now the obvious answer for most people is "because it
looked easier to just take over than to build a new community, new
infrastructure, new fame, etc, and I sure as hell like to take the
easy road as opposed to the hard road".

Until you clearly explain your reasoning for taking over as opposed to
forking, the default answer is the above one.

Cheers,
Daniel

--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


fetchinson at googlemail

May 9, 2012, 4:44 AM

Post #17 of 42 (3369 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

It's also quite ironic that the initial complaining started from how
the domain name www.pyjs.org is not available only pyjs.org is. At the
same time the Rebel Chief's listed domain name on github, see
https://github.com/xtfxme, gives you a server not found:
http://the.xtfx.me/ :)



On 5/9/12, anthony [at] xtfx <anthony [at] xtfx> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 8, 2012 4:10:13 AM UTC-5, james hedley wrote:
>> Agreed with pretty much all of that. It's third-world politics, lurching
>> from one dictator to another. Risinger seems to have banned all discussion
>> of the subject from the list too, I'm not posting anymore because I don't
>> want to give him an excuse to wield his newly found banhammer.
>
> hello James,
>
> i'm not really sure what you're referring too ... you appear to be making
> these things up. i have not banned anything, or even alluded to it,
> whatsoever. i asked that one specific mail not be commented upon, as a
> request; perhaps this is the dreaded bannhammer you speak of?
>
> reading your accounts strewn about is interesting, what exactly are *your*
> motives? a simple curiosity, nothing more.
>
> your comparison to gov'ts is pretty skewed i would say, you know this as
> well as i. regardless of what you think or know of me, i have a permanent
> track record of being pretty fair and receptive to virtually anything, and
> am involved in a wide range of projects. Luke is a talented developer,
> there is no doubt of this, but he is one of the most socially inept persons
> i have ever encountered. leading your users to statements such as this:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/pyjamas-dev/credo/pyjamas-dev/xzp4CCWhJN4/nQ3-emtYFVgJ
>
> ... dozens of times on several occasions, is truly incredible. other such
> behavior, eg. being the only person in the history of the webkit project to
> ever be *ejected* from contributing or communicating *at all*, is further
> testament to the deficiencies provoking this maneuver.
>
> however, i have no interest in comparing or being compared. go read my
> notes again; i have a high level of respect for Luke in many capacities, and
> this has not changed.
>
> lets make one thing perfectly clear; you are not the only one who cares of
> this project or wishes it to succeed. mistakes were made. problems were
> had. the decisions however, stands.
>
>> But yeah, a lot of the commentary from the pro-rebel side ( not that any
>> of them admit they had anything to do with it ) really does come across as
>> being ill-informed and childish.
>
> indeed, you have witnessed little chatter. however, barring your belief of
> such, i had received dozens of notes thanking me and attesting to a renewed
> impetus for action. the original goal was to purchase a domain and fork --
> i made this very clear in my notes -- `uxpy.net`. however, the most
> respectable member of the commit IMO convinced me otherwise. names names,
> yes you want names? sorry :-(. alas, he, myself, and numerous others are
> still active and moving forward. the list is actually approaching 100 ...
> not the "4-5" you so graciously quoted. i am simply the point man willing
> to stand the flurry.
>
> likewise, i did not "convince" the domain holder to give me the domain. not
> only was he already aware prior to me approaching him -- list member,
> passive -- he was more that willing to assist in reinstating the projects
> foundations and direction. he *was* the person who "left Luke in charge"
> ... why do you think he was the owner? as far as im concerned, the domain
> was already "hijacked"; this was, in good faith, intended as remedy.
>
> this was not a easy or light decision, the dissonance exists to this day.
> the idea was to retain Luke, but he decided to play legal threats as the
> first card (which i'm afraid can only backfire), before he even knew of the
> domain changes. hge is not a victim here, nor is anyone else. so please,
> show some cognitive capacity by realizing this is not as black-and-white as
> you's like it to be.
>
> when you decide to include yourself -- sooner, or later -- you are more than
> welcome.
>
> @alex23 ... try reading a bit further. as a human i am subject to annoyance
> and frustration. i probably shouldn't have started the message in that
> manner, but the absurdity and absolute inaccurate statements being made were
> rather upsetting. you will note that i make it perfectly clear that Luke is
> a fantastic developer, and a great part of the team. this of course has
> neither waned nor faltered.
>
> i encourage anyone willing to take the time to consult the archives,
> pyjamas' and elsewhere, as they are the only path to proper answers. this
> will impact the project in both known and untold ways, but we have a great
> number of minds willing to push beyond.
>
> --
>
> C Anthony
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


lamialily at cleverpun

May 9, 2012, 11:45 AM

Post #18 of 42 (3355 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

If the support you have from the other contributors is anywhere near
what you claim it is, I may as well be kissing Pyjamas goodbye.

Doubt it, though - this whole post reeks of vagueities and doublespeak
garbage. Too many undefined "whos". I'll wait until Leighton gets the
reins back.

And you know what? Leighton was right to threaten legal action. What
you did was not only in violation of his IP, but also multiple data
theft laws.

~Temia
--
When on earth, do as the earthlings do.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


jeanpierreda at gmail

May 9, 2012, 12:00 PM

Post #19 of 42 (3364 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Temia Eszteri <lamialily [at] cleverpun> wrote:
> And you know what? Leighton was right to threaten legal action. What
> you did was not only in violation of his IP, but also multiple data
> theft laws.

As far as copyright goes, it was open source, so he's allowed to
continue making modifications. I don't think Luke had any patents.

There might be something with stealing the name "PyJS" (which was,
AFAIK, used as a synonym for "PyJamas") -- apparently "common law
trademark" is a thing. Otherwise...

The domain was apparently not directly owned by Luke (but pointed to a
server luke administered), and its transfer was apparently consensual.

It seems like nearly every evil thing the hijacker did is legally
permissible. The one other thing was the way he created the new
mailing list might not have been legal, apparently. (See
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2012-May/1291804.html ).

-- Devin
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


martin.hellwig at gmail

May 9, 2012, 1:50 PM

Post #20 of 42 (3367 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On 09/05/2012 12:02, anthony [at] xtfx wrote:
<cut all>

Hello C Anthony,

I am an pyjs user and introduced the project as one of the fundamental
parts of a new application that is now core of a company of a reasonable
size (30+), customers include several companies in the top 10 of largest
IT infrastructures, I can mail you a list in private if you wish so.

I agree that the project leadership had certainly room for improvement.
I also agree that to move forward there had to be made some choices.

However, as the person introducing this project in a commercial venture,
I am also the one having the responsibility of it in my setting.

I have been put in a position where I have to come up with answers, like
why the examples page didn't work, why the project seems fragile and if
there is any viability at all.

Of course, I still believe in the project, with all it warts and so
forth. However my position has been made needlessly difficult, because
the action you took did not leave room for choice.

Let me explain this, if you had forked the project, created a new
domain, mailing list and, took over the majority of the devs, I would be
able to make a choice if I go with the new guys or stick with the couple
of old ones, just like the xorg fork.

If your argument is that this was your intention but was persuaded to do
other wise, I would say that is a lapse of judgement and not a very good
restart of the project.

Unfortunately mistakes made in public, even if arguably they are not
mistakes at all, are not easy forgotten and can end up haunting you.

I hope you will take these comments with you as a lesson learned, I do
wish you all the best and look forward to the improvements you are going
to contribute.

--
Martin P. Hellwig (mph)
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


cyborgv2 at hotmail

May 9, 2012, 3:30 PM

Post #21 of 42 (3350 views)
Permalink
RE: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

Hi ya,

Not to be confrontative but just because a project is open-source, it doesn't mean IP is open too!! The original idea is still property of the originator... It just has the global community adding their own IP and fixes. This is a core of corporate contracts ensuring that a developers IP become freely usable by the company they work for at the time, but their IP is still their IP.

In the UK at least, a developers IP cannot be hijacked by a company contract. If you write some code while working for X, then X has free usage of that IP and may restrict you from using the same IP for company Y, but only for a limited time (ie 5 years) The IP you came up with is still yours and a contract that claims your IP can (and has been in a court of law) judged to be null and void.

The problem is proving it!!!


> From: jeanpierreda [at] gmail
> Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:00:11 -0400
> Subject: Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack
> To: lamialily [at] cleverpun
> CC: python-list [at] python
>
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Temia Eszteri <lamialily [at] cleverpun> wrote:
> > And you know what? Leighton was right to threaten legal action. What
> > you did was not only in violation of his IP, but also multiple data
> > theft laws.
>
> As far as copyright goes, it was open source, so he's allowed to
> continue making modifications. I don't think Luke had any patents.
>
> There might be something with stealing the name "PyJS" (which was,
> AFAIK, used as a synonym for "PyJamas") -- apparently "common law
> trademark" is a thing. Otherwise...
>
> The domain was apparently not directly owned by Luke (but pointed to a
> server luke administered), and its transfer was apparently consensual.
>
> It seems like nearly every evil thing the hijacker did is legally
> permissible. The one other thing was the way he created the new
> mailing list might not have been legal, apparently. (See
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2012-May/1291804.html ).
>
> -- Devin
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


breamoreboy at yahoo

May 9, 2012, 3:44 PM

Post #22 of 42 (3347 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On 09/05/2012 23:30, Adrian Hunt wrote:
>
> In the UK at least, a developers IP cannot be hijacked by a company contract. If you write some code while working for X, then X has free usage of that IP and may restrict you from using the same IP for company Y, but only for a limited time (ie 5 years) The IP you came up with is still yours and a contract that claims your IP can (and has been in a court of law) judged to be null and void.
>

References please, as this is completely opposite to my understanding.

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


ian.g.kelly at gmail

May 9, 2012, 4:01 PM

Post #23 of 42 (3367 views)
Permalink
Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Adrian Hunt <cyborgv2 [at] hotmail> wrote:
>
> Hi ya,
>
> Not to be confrontative but just because a project is open-source, it
> doesn't mean IP is open too!! The original idea is still property of the
> originator... It just has the global community adding their own IP and
> fixes. This is a core of corporate contracts ensuring that a developers IP
> become freely usable by the company they work for at the time, but their IP
> is still their IP.

Luke Leighton was not the originator of the project. James Tauber
was, and his original code was a port of Google Web Toolkit. Even if
Luke could somehow be considered the "owner" of the project, it was
released under the Apache License, which includes a "/perpetual/,
worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, /irrevocable/
copyright license to reproduce, /prepare Derivative Works of/,
publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and distribute the
Work and such Derivative Works". I don't agree with what Anthony has
done, but I don't see how it violates the license in any way or how
Luke has any possible recourse through IP claims.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


cyborgv2 at hotmail

May 9, 2012, 4:04 PM

Post #24 of 42 (3351 views)
Permalink
RE: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

Hi Ian,

Well there you have me... You release code under a license, you bound by it even if later you think better of it... Seller be ware!!!!!!

> From: ian.g.kelly [at] gmail
> Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 16:59:00 -0600
> Subject: Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack
> To: cyborgv2 [at] hotmail
>
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Adrian Hunt <cyborgv2 [at] hotmail> wrote:
> >
> > Hi ya,
> >
> > Not to be confrontative but just because a project is open-source, it
> > doesn't mean IP is open too!! The original idea is still property of the
> > originator... It just has the global community adding their own IP and
> > fixes. This is a core of corporate contracts ensuring that a developers IP
> > become freely usable by the company they work for at the time, but their IP
> > is still their IP.
>
> Luke Leighton was not the originator of the project. James Tauber
> was, and his original code was a port of Google Web Toolkit. Even if
> Luke could somehow be considered the "owner" of the project, it was
> released under the Apache License, which includes a "/perpetual/,
> worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, /irrevocable/
> copyright license to reproduce, /prepare Derivative Works of/,
> publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and distribute the
> Work and such Derivative Works". I don't agree with what Anthony has
> done, but I don't see how it violates the license in any way or how
> Luke has any possible recourse through IP claims.


cyborgv2 at hotmail

May 9, 2012, 4:19 PM

Post #25 of 42 (3357 views)
Permalink
RE: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack [In reply to]

Hi there Mark

There has been a few that I know of but going back quite a long time... Soon after I got my qualifications, a small company called Merlio, not only did the court case get passed in UK courts by it went to the European court too... I wasn't directly involved but I know the EU court upheld the decision of the UK courts. Still there are was little to no enforcement of what they decided!!!

Any how IP IS the IP of the developer... Proving it and enforcing it is another matter!!



> To: python-list [at] python
> From: breamoreboy [at] yahoo
> Subject: Re: Open Source: you're doing it wrong - the Pyjamas hijack
> Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 23:44:01 +0100
>
> On 09/05/2012 23:30, Adrian Hunt wrote:
> >
> > In the UK at least, a developers IP cannot be hijacked by a company contract. If you write some code while working for X, then X has free usage of that IP and may restrict you from using the same IP for company Y, but only for a limited time (ie 5 years) The IP you came up with is still yours and a contract that claims your IP can (and has been in a court of law) judged to be null and void.
> >
>
> References please, as this is completely opposite to my understanding.
>
> --
> Cheers.
>
> Mark Lawrence.
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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