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saketh.bhamidipati at gmail

Oct 31, 2009, 11:06 PM

Post #1 of 40 (1073 views)
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Pyfora, a place for python

Hi everyone,

I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
register and post any questions or tips you may have.

If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
effort!

Sincerely,
Saketh (username:catechu)
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

ben+python at benfinney

Nov 1, 2009, 1:44 AM

Post #2 of 40 (1053 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Saketh <saketh.bhamidipati [at] gmail> writes:

> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
> effort!

Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.

Rather, please direct seekers to the existing forums (the IRC channel,
the Usenet groups and mailing lists) rather than setting up new walled
gardens.

--
\ “None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love |
`\ not freedom, but license.” —John Milton |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

fetchinson at googlemail

Nov 2, 2009, 6:30 AM

Post #3 of 40 (1037 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

>> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
>> effort!
>
> Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.

When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?

Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
responded to him the same way?

> Rather, please direct seekers to the existing forums (the IRC channel,
> the Usenet groups and mailing lists) rather than setting up new walled
> gardens.

Cheers,
Daniel

--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

deets at nospam

Nov 2, 2009, 6:44 AM

Post #4 of 40 (1038 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Daniel Fetchinson wrote:

>>> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
>>> effort!
>>
>> Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.
>
> When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
> you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?
>
> Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
> email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
> responded to him the same way?

Most probably not - but then because Tim certainly would have discussed this
move with peers from the community, if there is a need for this kind of
forum or not.

Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums. E.g. it
requires much more effort to get to know what new discussions arose, as
well as following ongoing ones - because the interface lacks a
comprehensive overview of that, and features like "jump to next unread
article".

Diez
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

kee at kagi

Nov 2, 2009, 7:24 AM

Post #5 of 40 (1036 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

I just noticed the tag line "a place for Python". Looked it up online (http://pyfora.org/
) and it will be interesting to see if it can fill the void that I
experience (no centralized place to post and view user submitted
sample code) in the existing Python community.

As for user community fragmentation, I would guess that someone would
be less likely to create such a site if the user community needs were
being met by the official sites. There is a place for the existing old
school interaction forums (the IRC channel, the Usenet groups and
mailing lists), but there is also a place for archived user submitted
comments.

My personal preference would be a link in each sub-paragraph in the
official documentation to a wiki page devoted to that specific aspect
of the Python language. A place were users could augment the
documentation by providing sample code and by expanding out the
documentation for those of us who don't live and breath Python in our
sleep. Real Python coders would not click on the user wiki links and
all of us newbies could communicate with each other. But until a place
like that exists, perhaps Pyfora will get us part way there.

Kee

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

deets at nospam

Nov 2, 2009, 7:38 AM

Post #6 of 40 (1036 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Kee Nethery wrote:

> I just noticed the tag line "a place for Python". Looked it up online
> (http://pyfora.org/ ) and it will be interesting to see if it can fill the
> void that I experience (no centralized place to post and view user
> submitted sample code) in the existing Python community.

ASPN cookbook?

And I don't think that a phpBB (or commercial rip-off) forum can be good at
that - the search-function of these things sucks big time, and
classification through tagging or hierarchical organization is also not
possible.

> My personal preference would be a link in each sub-paragraph in the
> official documentation to a wiki page devoted to that specific aspect
> of the Python language. A place were users could augment the
> documentation by providing sample code and by expanding out the
> documentation for those of us who don't live and breath Python in our
> sleep. Real Python coders would not click on the user wiki links and
> all of us newbies could communicate with each other. But until a place
> like that exists, perhaps Pyfora will get us part way there.

This idea has been discussed before, and unfortunately not bore any fruits
so far - one of the few places PHP is actually better than Python. So I'd
love to see it happen.

However I totally fail to see how the pyfora are any step into that
direction.

Diez
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

fetchinson at googlemail

Nov 2, 2009, 7:43 AM

Post #7 of 40 (1037 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

>>>> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
>>>> effort!
>>>
>>> Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.
>>
>> When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
>> you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?
>>
>> Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
>> email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
>> responded to him the same way?
>
> Most probably not - but then because Tim certainly would have discussed this
> move with peers from the community, if there is a need for this kind of
> forum or not.
>
> Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
> frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
> with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums.

If you prefer NNTP/ML, I'd suggest you pay attention to these channels
only. BTW, I prefer ML also and I'm very happy with c.l.p. However
that doesn't mean that I need to be hostile to other forms of
communication and it doesn't mean that I need to discourage people
from setting up other channels of communication for those folks who
prefer them.

If new channels open up for others it will not make c.l.p any worse.
If enough people like c.l.p. it will continue to be a good channel, if
too many too good people switch to an online forum, well, in that case
c.l.p. will cease to be great, but it won't be because of artificial
fragmentation by somebody but because the people started to prefer
online forums (words like "free market" come to mind :))

I generally not register on any online forum and will most probably
not register on pyfora either. But I know for a fact that many people
prefer forums over ML and why shouldn't those people be happy with the
communication platform they like and why shouldn't they be given a
chance to join the python community if the only reason they stayed
away was that they didn't like c.l.p. for one reason or another?

> E.g. it
> requires much more effort to get to know what new discussions arose, as
> well as following ongoing ones - because the interface lacks a
> comprehensive overview of that, and features like "jump to next unread
> article".

These are perfectly legitimate reasons for you to not use online
forums and stick to c.l.p. I do the same thing. But again, if an
enthusiastic python community member wants to open new channels for
those folks who like them, why should anyone be hostile to him/her?

Cheers,
Daniel

--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

duncan.booth at invalid

Nov 2, 2009, 8:22 AM

Post #8 of 40 (1035 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

"Diez B. Roggisch" <deets [at] nospam> wrote:

> Kee Nethery wrote:
>> My personal preference would be a link in each sub-paragraph in the
>> official documentation to a wiki page devoted to that specific aspect
>> of the Python language. A place were users could augment the
>> documentation by providing sample code and by expanding out the
>> documentation for those of us who don't live and breath Python in our
>> sleep. Real Python coders would not click on the user wiki links and
>> all of us newbies could communicate with each other. But until a
>> place like that exists, perhaps Pyfora will get us part way there.
>
> This idea has been discussed before, and unfortunately not bore any
> fruits so far - one of the few places PHP is actually better than
> Python. So I'd love to see it happen.

One option would be to use Google sidewiki. That way we need no changes to
the existing site and people can add comments on pages or individual
paragraphs, phrases or words. It's up and running today.

However, so far as I know there isn't any easy way to find all sidewiki
comments for a site: the APIs only allow you to retrieve comments for an
individual page. (There's a sidewiki issue for this
http://code.google.com/p/gdata-issues/issues/detail?id=1493 ) If they
address this issue then the site could include a ticker of recent comments.

Also of course some people may have objections to using sidewiki e.g. on
privacy grounds.

--
Duncan Booth http://kupuguy.blogspot.com
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

http://phr.cx at NOSPAM

Nov 2, 2009, 9:39 AM

Post #9 of 40 (1036 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Kee Nethery <kee [at] kagi> writes:
> I just noticed the tag line "a place for Python". Looked it up online
> (http://pyfora.org/ ) and it will be interesting to see if it can fill
> the void that I experience (no centralized place to post and view
> user submitted sample code) in the existing Python community.

Something wrong with pastebin.com or any of its lookalikes?
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

deets at nospam

Nov 2, 2009, 4:12 PM

Post #10 of 40 (1018 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Daniel Fetchinson schrieb:
>>>>> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
>>>>> effort!
>>>> Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.
>>> When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
>>> you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?
>>>
>>> Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
>>> email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
>>> responded to him the same way?
>> Most probably not - but then because Tim certainly would have discussed this
>> move with peers from the community, if there is a need for this kind of
>> forum or not.
>>
>> Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
>> frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
>> with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums.
>
> If you prefer NNTP/ML, I'd suggest you pay attention to these channels
> only. BTW, I prefer ML also and I'm very happy with c.l.p. However
> that doesn't mean that I need to be hostile to other forms of
> communication and it doesn't mean that I need to discourage people
> from setting up other channels of communication for those folks who
> prefer them.

Since when is the mere suggestion that fragmentation will occur and if
that's a desirable consequence is hostile? The OP is not bound to it,
and I also don't see the tone used by the two immediate answerers being
hostile. Paul might have been terse - but hostility looks different IMHO.

The OP *might* come to the conclusion that further fragmenting the
community isn't within his personal goals either. OTOH, he might also
simply think that once his forum gained traction, he can switch on the
google ads, and cash in. Which a forum announced by Tim Peters, run
under python.org wouldn't I'd say.

> If new channels open up for others it will not make c.l.p any worse.

It will, if they catch on. As some competent people will move away.
Again, this is the case in the german python scene, and it plain sucks.
We have a ML, a NG, and a forum. None of them is synchronized in any
way. We wanted to do this for ML and NG - but the guy responsible for
the ML can't be reached, or refuses to answer.

If we had only one source, fragmentation wouldn't occur, and the
competence would be bundled. That I personally prefer MLs and NGs
doesn't mean that I wouldn't turn to the forum if it was *the* way to
talk about Python. But as it stands, there are three kind of things, of
which I'm already subsribed to two - and am annoyed of people posting
questions in both of them.

Now, I can't do anything about it in the sense that I can forbid it. But
questioning the move to create a new form of exchange (especially
something rather uninspired, in contrast to e.g. stackoverflow) I can.

> If enough people like c.l.p. it will continue to be a good channel, if
> too many too good people switch to an online forum, well, in that case
> c.l.p. will cease to be great, but it won't be because of artificial
> fragmentation by somebody but because the people started to prefer
> online forums (words like "free market" come to mind :))

Yes. Or all of them suck equally. Free market again. I'm not against it,
but asking the OP if he really thinks the value of his forum outweighs
the risk of making existing fora worse is a valid question. Free speech,
one other nice free thing out there.

> I generally not register on any online forum and will most probably
> not register on pyfora either. But I know for a fact that many people
> prefer forums over ML and why shouldn't those people be happy with the
> communication platform they like and why shouldn't they be given a
> chance to join the python community if the only reason they stayed
> away was that they didn't like c.l.p. for one reason or another?
>
>> E.g. it
>> requires much more effort to get to know what new discussions arose, as
>> well as following ongoing ones - because the interface lacks a
>> comprehensive overview of that, and features like "jump to next unread
>> article".
>
> These are perfectly legitimate reasons for you to not use online
> forums and stick to c.l.p. I do the same thing. But again, if an
> enthusiastic python community member wants to open new channels for
> those folks who like them, why should anyone be hostile to him/her?

Again, nobody has been.

Diez
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

gatti at dsdata

Nov 3, 2009, 2:11 AM

Post #11 of 40 (1016 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

On Nov 1, 8:06�am, Saketh <saketh.bhamidip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
> online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
> and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
> register and post any questions or tips you may have.

I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a
bad idea.

Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's
official newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well-
made and well-frequented general programming sites like
stackoverflow.com.

It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament
in a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to
Las Vegas: there are no incentives to choose your forum, except
perhaps for isolationists who value being a big fish in a small pond
over being part of a community.

If you want to claim a small Python-related corner of the web, you
should write a blog: if it is any good, and probably even if it isn't,
it would be linked and read by someone and it would add to collective
knowledge instead of fragmenting it.

Regards,
Lorenzo Gatti
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

mal at egenix

Nov 3, 2009, 2:27 AM

Post #12 of 40 (988 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Kee Nethery wrote:
> I just noticed the tag line "a place for Python". Looked it up online
> (http://pyfora.org/) and it will be interesting to see if it can fill
> the void that I experience (no centralized place to post and view user
> submitted sample code) in the existing Python community.

There already is a well-known site for exchanging code snippets:

The ActiveState Cookbook for Python
http://code.activestate.com/recipes/langs/python/

> As for user community fragmentation, I would guess that someone would be
> less likely to create such a site if the user community needs were being
> met by the official sites. There is a place for the existing old school
> interaction forums (the IRC channel, the Usenet groups and mailing
> lists), but there is also a place for archived user submitted comments.
>
> My personal preference would be a link in each sub-paragraph in the
> official documentation to a wiki page devoted to that specific aspect of
> the Python language. A place were users could augment the documentation
> by providing sample code and by expanding out the documentation for
> those of us who don't live and breath Python in our sleep. Real Python
> coders would not click on the user wiki links and all of us newbies
> could communicate with each other. But until a place like that exists,
> perhaps Pyfora will get us part way there.

I'm sure something like that could be added to the official
documentation. Please file a feature request for on the Python
tracker.

We could have a dedicated place on the python.org wiki to host
such snippets and then use sub-pages for the various topics.

--
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Nov 03 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

steve at REMOVE-THIS-cybersource

Nov 3, 2009, 2:37 AM

Post #13 of 40 (952 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:11:59 -0800, Lorenzo Gatti wrote:

> On Nov 1, 8:06 am, Saketh <saketh.bhamidip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
>> online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
>> and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
>> register and post any questions or tips you may have.
>
> I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a bad
> idea.
>
> Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's official
> newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well- made and
> well-frequented general programming sites like stackoverflow.com.

Are you saying that now that comp.lang.python and stackoverflow exists,
there no more room in the world for any more Python forums?

I think that's terrible.

Saketh, would you care to give a brief explanation for sets your forum
apart from the existing Python forums, and why people should choose to
spend time there instead of (or as well as) the existing forums? What
advantages does it have?

> It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament in
> a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to Las
> Vegas: there are no incentives to choose your forum, except perhaps for
> isolationists who value being a big fish in a small pond over being part
> of a community.

(Funny you mention Las Vegas -- it started off as a tiny little town in
the middle of the desert too.)

How about avoiding the noise and obtrusive advertising and bright lights
of Las Vegas, the fakery, the "showmanship", the horrible fake pyramid
and has-been celebrities, the crowds, the tackiness, the high prices, the
bright lights that never turn off (Las Vegas is the brightest city on
Earth)... if you're interested in poker without all the mayonnaise, maybe
that poker tournament away from the tourists is exactly what you need.

Personally, if I wanted to gamble, the last place I would go is any house
which had gold-plated taps in the bathrooms. That tells me the house's
percentage is *way* too high.

--
Steven
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

fetchinson at googlemail

Nov 3, 2009, 5:19 AM

Post #14 of 40 (987 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

On 11/3/09, Diez B. Roggisch <deets [at] nospam> wrote:
> Daniel Fetchinson schrieb:
>>>>>> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
>>>>>> effort!
>>>>> Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.
>>>> When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
>>>> you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?
>>>>
>>>> Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
>>>> email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
>>>> responded to him the same way?
>>> Most probably not - but then because Tim certainly would have discussed
>>> this
>>> move with peers from the community, if there is a need for this kind of
>>> forum or not.
>>>
>>> Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
>>> frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
>>> with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums.
>>
>> If you prefer NNTP/ML, I'd suggest you pay attention to these channels
>> only. BTW, I prefer ML also and I'm very happy with c.l.p. However
>> that doesn't mean that I need to be hostile to other forms of
>> communication and it doesn't mean that I need to discourage people
>> from setting up other channels of communication for those folks who
>> prefer them.
>
> Since when is the mere suggestion that fragmentation will occur and if
> that's a desirable consequence is hostile? The OP is not bound to it,
> and I also don't see the tone used by the two immediate answerers being
> hostile. Paul might have been terse - but hostility looks different IMHO.

I was referring to this comment by Ben:

"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."

This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
OP is fragmenting the community, which is something negative, i.e. it
contains negative prejudice. What I would have written in Ben's place:

Have you considered the possibility that your website will further
fragment the community?

This wouldn't have been hostile, IMHO.

> The OP *might* come to the conclusion that further fragmenting the
> community isn't within his personal goals either. OTOH, he might also
> simply think that once his forum gained traction, he can switch on the
> google ads, and cash in. Which a forum announced by Tim Peters, run
> under python.org wouldn't I'd say.
>
>> If new channels open up for others it will not make c.l.p any worse.
>
> It will, if they catch on. As some competent people will move away.

Competent people will only move away if the website is
great/fun/useful/etc. In which case we should welcome it, since
something great/fun/useful/etc is a good thing. If it's not
great/fun/useful/etc competent people will not move away, in which
case c.l.p. will not be any worse as a result of launching the new
website.

> Again, this is the case in the german python scene, and it plain sucks.
> We have a ML, a NG, and a forum. None of them is synchronized in any
> way. We wanted to do this for ML and NG - but the guy responsible for
> the ML can't be reached, or refuses to answer.

Welcome to open source, the world of infinitely many forks, code
variants, MLs, forums, NGs, websites, in other words, welcome to the
bazaar!

Cheers,
Daniel

> If we had only one source, fragmentation wouldn't occur, and the
> competence would be bundled. That I personally prefer MLs and NGs
> doesn't mean that I wouldn't turn to the forum if it was *the* way to
> talk about Python. But as it stands, there are three kind of things, of
> which I'm already subsribed to two - and am annoyed of people posting
> questions in both of them.
>
> Now, I can't do anything about it in the sense that I can forbid it. But
> questioning the move to create a new form of exchange (especially
> something rather uninspired, in contrast to e.g. stackoverflow) I can.
>
>> If enough people like c.l.p. it will continue to be a good channel, if
>> too many too good people switch to an online forum, well, in that case
>> c.l.p. will cease to be great, but it won't be because of artificial
>> fragmentation by somebody but because the people started to prefer
>> online forums (words like "free market" come to mind :))
>
> Yes. Or all of them suck equally. Free market again. I'm not against it,
> but asking the OP if he really thinks the value of his forum outweighs
> the risk of making existing fora worse is a valid question. Free speech,
> one other nice free thing out there.
>
>> I generally not register on any online forum and will most probably
>> not register on pyfora either. But I know for a fact that many people
>> prefer forums over ML and why shouldn't those people be happy with the
>> communication platform they like and why shouldn't they be given a
>> chance to join the python community if the only reason they stayed
>> away was that they didn't like c.l.p. for one reason or another?
>>
>>> E.g. it
>>> requires much more effort to get to know what new discussions arose, as
>>> well as following ongoing ones - because the interface lacks a
>>> comprehensive overview of that, and features like "jump to next unread
>>> article".
>>
>> These are perfectly legitimate reasons for you to not use online
>> forums and stick to c.l.p. I do the same thing. But again, if an
>> enthusiastic python community member wants to open new channels for
>> those folks who like them, why should anyone be hostile to him/her?

--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

ben+python at benfinney

Nov 3, 2009, 6:20 AM

Post #15 of 40 (984 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Daniel Fetchinson <fetchinson [at] googlemail> writes:

> I was referring to this comment by Ben:
>
> "Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>
> This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
> OP is fragmenting the community

It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.

So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.

--
\ “Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice.” |
`\ —Henry L. Mencken |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

gatti at dsdata

Nov 3, 2009, 7:00 AM

Post #16 of 40 (953 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

On Nov 3, 11:37�am, Steven D'Aprano <st...@REMOVE-THIS-
cybersource.com.au> wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:11:59 -0800, Lorenzo Gatti wrote:
[...]
> Are you saying that now that comp.lang.python and stackoverflow exists,
> there no more room in the world for any more Python forums?
>
> I think that's terrible.

Although there is a high barrier to entry for general Python forums,
it is not a problem because the door is always open for specialized
forums that become the natural "home" of some group or thought leader
or of some special interest, for example the forum of a new software
product or of the fans of an important blog.

Unfortunately, pyfora.org has neither a distinct crowd behind it nor
an unique topic, and thus no niche to fill; it can only contribute
fragmentation, which is unfortunate because Saketh seems enthusiastic.

What in some fields (e.g. warez forums or art boards) would be healthy
redundancy and competition between sites and forums becomes pure
fragmentation if the only effect of multiple forums is to separate the
same questions and opinions that would be posted elsewhere from
potential readers and answerers.
Reasonable people know this and post their requests for help and
discussions either in the same appropriate places as everyone else or
in random places they know and like; one needs serious personal issues
to abandon popular forums for obscure ones.

> Saketh, would you care to give a brief explanation for sets your forum
> apart from the existing Python forums, and why people should choose to
> spend time there instead of (or as well as) the existing forums? What
> advantages does it have?

That's the point, I couldn't put it better.

> > It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament in
> > a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to Las
> > Vegas:
> > [...]
> How about avoiding the noise and obtrusive advertising and bright lights
> of Las Vegas, the fakery, the "showmanship",
> [...]
> if you're interested in poker without all the mayonnaise, maybe
> that poker tournament away from the tourists is exactly what you need.

I didn't explain my similitude clearly: I was comparing the fitness
for purpose of going to Las Vegas with a plan to gamble with the
absurdity of stopping, say, at an isolated gas station in the hope of
finding a poker tournament there.
If you are hinting that popular newsgroups and forums might be so full
of fakery, showmanship, mayonnaise, etc. to deserve secession, it's
another topic.

Regards,
Lorenzo Gatti
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

gh at ghaering

Nov 3, 2009, 7:05 AM

Post #17 of 40 (985 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Lorenzo Gatti wrote:
> On Nov 1, 8:06 am, Saketh <saketh.bhamidip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
>> online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
>> and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
>> register and post any questions or tips you may have.
>
> I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a
> bad idea. [...]

I agree.

> Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's
> official newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well-
> made and well-frequented general programming sites like
> stackoverflow.com. [...]

The good thing is, unless something the announced new forum gets
critical mass, it will just slowly (or not-so-slowly die).

But even though I'm an old-timer who still prefers newsgroups/mailing
lists, I think that there should be something better, browser based. In
particular supporting moderation/voting and tagging/filtering.

-- Gerhard

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

fetchinson at googlemail

Nov 3, 2009, 7:58 AM

Post #18 of 40 (983 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

>> I was referring to this comment by Ben:
>>
>> "Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>>
>> This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
>> OP is fragmenting the community
>
> It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
> the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.
>
> So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.

Probably this thread is going by far too far :) but let's see this again,

If A says to B "please don't do X" then A assumes that B does X.
Otherwise the request of A doesn't make sense, since it doesn't make
sense to ask somebody not to do something that he/she is not doing.

Agreed?

If no, please explain why you don't agree.

If yes, then I guess we will also agree that if A says to B "please
don't make efforts to do X" then request of A only makes sense if B
makes an effort to do X.

Agreed?

If no, please explain why.

If yes, great, let's continue! If A says to B "please don't make
efforts to fragment the community" then this request from A only makes
sense if B makes an effort to fragment the community.

Agreed?

If no, why not?

If yes, we are almost there! In our example the request of A only
makes sense if B is making an effort to fragment the community, in
other words, assuming that A tries to make a meaningful request, A is
assuming that B is making an effort to fragment the community.

Agreed?

If not, why not?

If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
is a fact :)

Cheers,
Daniel

--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

deets at nospam

Nov 3, 2009, 8:17 AM

Post #19 of 40 (982 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

>> Since when is the mere suggestion that fragmentation will occur and if
>> that's a desirable consequence is hostile? The OP is not bound to it,
>> and I also don't see the tone used by the two immediate answerers being
>> hostile. Paul might have been terse - but hostility looks different IMHO.
>
> I was referring to this comment by Ben:
>
> "Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>
> This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
> OP is fragmenting the community, which is something negative, i.e. it
> contains negative prejudice. What I would have written in Ben's place:
>
> Have you considered the possibility that your website will further
> fragment the community?
>
> This wouldn't have been hostile, IMHO.

Well, this is *deep* into the realms of semantics and dialectics. To an
extend that personal prejudice would change the perception of the sentence.
If everything posted here (and elsewhere) had to be worded so carefully,
we'd hardly discussing anything at all.

> Competent people will only move away if the website is
> great/fun/useful/etc. In which case we should welcome it, since
> something great/fun/useful/etc is a good thing. If it's not
> great/fun/useful/etc competent people will not move away, in which
> case c.l.p. will not be any worse as a result of launching the new
> website.

There is not only the problem of people moving away - but also of them not
even finding *this* place to discuss because they found pyfora first, and
thus the "danger" of them getting not the good answers they are looking
for. This sometimes already happens, if one of the google ad farms out
there that tries to lure people onto their pages simply reproduces c.l.py
content - and people believe it's a genuine forum - and wonder why they
don't get answers there.

> Welcome to open source, the world of infinitely many forks, code
> variants, MLs, forums, NGs, websites, in other words, welcome to the
> bazaar!

Oh please. If every dissent on the direction of an open-source project (or
commercial one) would lead to forking, we'd end up with a lot of projects
which none of them being competitive and mature. So can we scrap this
straw-man of an argument?

Diez
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

ethan at stoneleaf

Nov 3, 2009, 12:42 PM

Post #20 of 40 (976 views)
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Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Daniel Fetchinson wrote:
>>>I was referring to this comment by Ben:
>>>
>>>"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>>>
>>>This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
>>>OP is fragmenting the community
>>
>>It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
>>the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.
>>
>>So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.
>

[mass snippitude]

> If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
> Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
> an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
> Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
> effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
> something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
> nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
> nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
> is a fact :)

You were doing fine until you brought in the hostility. I must agree
with Ben that his comment was not hostile. It was merely a statement.
Not an exclamation, no name calling, just a plain request rooted in reality.

And that's a fact. ;-)

Shall we now discuss the nature of the space/time continuum and the
exact reality of quarks?

~Ethan~
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

ben+python at benfinney

Nov 3, 2009, 1:13 PM

Post #21 of 40 (954 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

Daniel Fetchinson <fetchinson [at] googlemail> writes:

> Probably this thread is going by far too far :)

Agreed.

--
\ 德不孤、必有鄰。 (The virtuous are not abandoned, they shall |
`\ surely have neighbours.) —孔夫子 Confucius, 551 BCE – 479 BCE |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

rhodri at wildebst

Nov 3, 2009, 4:17 PM

Post #22 of 40 (975 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:58:30 -0000, Daniel Fetchinson
<fetchinson [at] googlemail> wrote:

> If yes, we are almost there! In our example the request of A only
> makes sense if B is making an effort to fragment the community, in
> other words, assuming that A tries to make a meaningful request, A is
> assuming that B is making an effort to fragment the community.

You are assuming here that B is intending his efforts to do X, and
that A believes this to be the case. That's the assumption where
your chain of logic fails; it is entirely possible that A's statement
is abridging a chain of logic that B hasn't considered, and that A
is making no assumption of any kind concerning B's intent.

Say hello to the Law of Unintended Consequences.

--
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

fetchinson at googlemail

Nov 4, 2009, 4:17 AM

Post #23 of 40 (945 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

>>>>I was referring to this comment by Ben:
>>>>
>>>>"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>>>>
>>>>This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
>>>>OP is fragmenting the community
>>>
>>>It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
>>>the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.
>>>
>>>So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.
>>
>
> [mass snippitude]
>
>> If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
>> Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
>> an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
>> Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
>> effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
>> something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
>> nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
>> nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
>> is a fact :)
>
> You were doing fine until you brought in the hostility. I must agree
> with Ben that his comment was not hostile. It was merely a statement.
> Not an exclamation, no name calling, just a plain request rooted in reality.

Okay, before we get to quarks let's see what 'hostile' means :)
>From Merriam-Webster http://www.learnersdictionary.net/dictionary/hostile :

1 a : of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire>
b : marked by malevolence <a hostile act>
c : openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas>
d (1) : not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment>
(2) : having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature
<a hostile workplace>

Now, I think the OP was perceived by Ben as doing something which he
thinks is not good. We most probably agree on this. In other words,
Ben was opposing the OP's ideas. Yet in other words, Ben was resisting
the OP's ideas. And yet in other words, Ben was not hospitable. So
perhaps 1a and 1b doesn't quite fit the bill since Ben didn't go as
far as call the OP an enemy and he wasn't evil or wished harm to the
OP, but 1c and d(1) are certainly correctly describing his behavior
and to a lesser extent d(2) as well.

And the quarks...... :)

Cheers,
Daniel

> And that's a fact. ;-)
>
> Shall we now discuss the nature of the space/time continuum and the
> exact reality of quarks?

--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

fetchinson at googlemail

Nov 4, 2009, 4:19 AM

Post #24 of 40 (944 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
>>> online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
>>> and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
>>> register and post any questions or tips you may have.
>>
>> I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a bad
>> idea.
>>
>> Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's official
>> newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well- made and
>> well-frequented general programming sites like stackoverflow.com.
>
> Are you saying that now that comp.lang.python and stackoverflow exists,
> there no more room in the world for any more Python forums?

Exactly.

> I think that's terrible.

Exactly.

> Saketh, would you care to give a brief explanation for sets your forum
> apart from the existing Python forums, and why people should choose to
> spend time there instead of (or as well as) the existing forums? What
> advantages does it have?

Yes, this is about the right kind of response I think everybody
deserves who puts energy/enthusiasm/effort/time into putting together
a python-related forum.

Cheers,
Daniel

>> It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament in
>> a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to Las
>> Vegas: there are no incentives to choose your forum, except perhaps for
>> isolationists who value being a big fish in a small pond over being part
>> of a community.
>
> (Funny you mention Las Vegas -- it started off as a tiny little town in
> the middle of the desert too.)
>
> How about avoiding the noise and obtrusive advertising and bright lights
> of Las Vegas, the fakery, the "showmanship", the horrible fake pyramid
> and has-been celebrities, the crowds, the tackiness, the high prices, the
> bright lights that never turn off (Las Vegas is the brightest city on
> Earth)... if you're interested in poker without all the mayonnaise, maybe
> that poker tournament away from the tourists is exactly what you need.
>
> Personally, if I wanted to gamble, the last place I would go is any house
> which had gold-plated taps in the bathrooms. That tells me the house's
> percentage is *way* too high.

--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

dotancohen at gmail

Nov 4, 2009, 5:29 AM

Post #25 of 40 (946 views)
Permalink

Re: Pyfora, a place for python [In reply to]

> My personal preference would be a link in each sub-paragraph in the official
> documentation to a wiki page devoted to that specific aspect of the Python
> language. A place were users could augment the documentation by providing
> sample code and by expanding out the documentation for those of us who don't
> live and breath Python in our sleep. Real Python coders would not click on
> the user wiki links and all of us newbies could communicate with each other.
> But until a place like that exists, perhaps Pyfora will get us part way
> there.
>

The PHP documentation has this feature: user comments right on the
same page (no link to a wiki, though). It's great, most of the best
usage practices that I have learned in that language came from the
user's comments, not from the official documentation itself.

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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