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Where does setuptools live?

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dw at botanicus

Jul 4, 2009, 8:50 AM

Post #1 of 13 (393 views)
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Where does setuptools live?

I'm trying to create a patch for a diabolical issue I keep running
into, but I can't seem to find the setuptools repository. Is it this
one?

http://svn.python.org/view/sandbox/trunk/setuptools/

It's seen no changes in 9 months.

The issue in question is its (ab)use of .svn to directly read working
copy information rather than going via the well designed 'svn info --
xml' route, which if done, wouldn't result in setuptools busting every
few years, nor require me to downgrade my Subversion installation (OS
X packages don't support multiple versions installed at a time),
checkout a source tree, use setuptools, then re-upgrade so I can go
back to using my other trees.

David
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floris.bruynooghe at gmail

Jul 4, 2009, 9:35 AM

Post #2 of 13 (374 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

On Jul 4, 4:50 pm, David Wilson <d...@botanicus.net> wrote:
> I'm trying to create a patch for a diabolical issue I keep running
> into, but I can't seem to find the setuptools repository. Is it this
> one?
>
> http://svn.python.org/view/sandbox/trunk/setuptools/

It is, see
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-July/012374.html

> It's seen no changes in 9 months.

It's setuptools... I'm sure you can find many flamefests on distutils-
sig about this.

Regards
Floris
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chris at simplistix

Jul 6, 2009, 6:09 PM

Post #3 of 13 (346 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

Floris Bruynooghe wrote:
> It is, see
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-July/012374.html
>
>
>> It's seen no changes in 9 months.
>
> It's setuptools... I'm sure you can find many flamefests on distutils-
> sig about this.

Yeah, distutils-sig is the right place to discuss.

I wonder how close setuptools is to being forked because of Phil Eby's
unwillingness to apply patches and/or clean up the horrible setuptools code?

Chris

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david.lyon at preisshare

Jul 6, 2009, 6:55 PM

Post #4 of 13 (353 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:09:41 +0100, Chris Withers <chris[at]simplistix.co.uk>
wrote:
> I wonder how close setuptools is to being forked because of Phil Eby's
> unwillingness to apply patches and/or clean up the horrible setuptools
> code?

setuptools... as far as I can see isn't actually installed until you
install easyinstall...

Pip (http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pip) and enstall
(http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Enstaller/3.1.0) seem to be forks of
setuptools already...

So it looks like it's already been forked to some degree..

What hasn't happened is enough testing of pypi packages and installing
with setuptools/pip/enstall from pypi.

If the xmlrpc links actually "worked" on pypi...

http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyPiXmlRpc?action=show&redirect=CheeseShopXmlRpc

ie.. that they would allow a developer to download a packages via rpc....

then this whole issue could probably be fixed more easily...

ok - the process isn't perfect...

but there's room for improvement...

David

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chris at simplistix

Jul 7, 2009, 1:06 AM

Post #5 of 13 (345 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

David Lyon wrote:
> setuptools... as far as I can see isn't actually installed until you
> install easyinstall...

That depends... I exclusively use buildout to manage my python packages,
and sadly that relies on setuptools...

> Pip (http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pip) and enstall
> (http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Enstaller/3.1.0) seem to be forks of
> setuptools already...
>
> So it looks like it's already been forked to some degree..
>
> What hasn't happened is enough testing of pypi packages and installing
> with setuptools/pip/enstall from pypi.

What needs testing?

More important for me is which of these has the most active development
community. How do we judge that?

> If the xmlrpc links actually "worked" on pypi...

What about it doesn't work?

Chris

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david.lyon at preisshare

Jul 7, 2009, 5:02 AM

Post #6 of 13 (342 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:06:49 +0100, Chris Withers <chris[at]simplistix.co.uk>
wrote:
>> What hasn't happened is enough testing of pypi packages and installing
>> with setuptools/pip/enstall from pypi.
>
> What needs testing?

It's software... therefore it needs testing...

David

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chris at simplistix

Jul 7, 2009, 5:07 AM

Post #7 of 13 (345 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

David Lyon wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:06:49 +0100, Chris Withers <chris[at]simplistix.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>> What hasn't happened is enough testing of pypi packages and installing
>>> with setuptools/pip/enstall from pypi.
>> What needs testing?
>
> It's software... therefore it needs testing...

Yes, which is why I asked WHAT needs testing? :-)

Chris

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david.lyon at preisshare

Jul 7, 2009, 5:21 AM

Post #8 of 13 (341 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:07:48 +0100, Chris Withers <chris[at]simplistix.co.uk>
wrote:
>>>> What hasn't happened is enough testing of pypi packages and installing
>>>> with setuptools/pip/enstall from pypi.
>>> What needs testing?
>>
>> It's software... therefore it needs testing...
>
> Yes, which is why I asked WHAT needs testing? :-)

I've written a package manager gui. I think it is
orderly to comprehensively ascertain which packages will
and won't install from pypi with the tool.

I'll run the same install test for pip, easyinstall
and enstall. And come up with a preferred installer.

Which I will then suggest as the preferred tool.

David

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chris at simplistix

Jul 7, 2009, 5:28 AM

Post #9 of 13 (341 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

David Lyon wrote:
> I've written a package manager gui. I think it is
> orderly to comprehensively ascertain which packages will
> and won't install from pypi with the tool.
>
> I'll run the same install test for pip, easyinstall
> and enstall. And come up with a preferred installer.
>
> Which I will then suggest as the preferred tool.

Cool :-)

If you can publish your results or make the raw data downloadable
somewhere (especially which packages fail with which installers) I'm
sure a lot of people would find that *very* interesting...

Chris

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inky788 at gmail

Jul 7, 2009, 11:01 AM

Post #10 of 13 (337 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

On Jul 7, 4:06 am, Chris Withers <ch...@simplistix.co.uk> wrote:
> David Lyon wrote:
>
> > What hasn't happened is enough testing of pypi packages and installing
> > with setuptools/pip/enstall from pypi.
>
> What needs testing?
>
> More important for me is which of these has the most active development
> community. How do we judge that?

Currently, distutils itself is being actively developed. More info
about this here: http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/

My (albeit anonymous) advice is: use distutils. Manually download
packages as-needed from PyPI and install manually using standard
distutils.

Read more about distutils here http://wiki.python.org/moin/Distutils
and of course in the Python docs.

If you want to contribute, my first guess would be that Tarek could
use help writing tests (but I don't know what distutils coverage looks
like at the moment).

When Tarek says, "For package installation that takes care of
dependencies, uninstall, etc., use $tool", then I'll start using
$tool. Until then, it's just straight distutils for me.
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chris at simplistix

Jul 10, 2009, 7:26 AM

Post #11 of 13 (317 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

Inky 788 wrote:
> Currently, distutils itself is being actively developed. More info
> about this here: http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/
>
> My (albeit anonymous) advice is: use distutils. Manually download
> packages as-needed from PyPI and install manually using standard
> distutils.

No thanks. I'm a big fan of buildout. Making it possible for packages to
specify their dependencies is a big win...

Chris

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inky788 at gmail

Jul 10, 2009, 9:44 AM

Post #12 of 13 (314 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

On Jul 10, 10:26 am, Chris Withers <ch...@simplistix.co.uk> wrote:
> Inky 788 wrote:
> > Currently, distutils itself is being actively developed. More info
> > about this here:http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/
>
> > My (albeit anonymous) advice is: use distutils. Manually download
> > packages as-needed from PyPI and install manually using standard
> > distutils.
>
> No thanks. I'm a big fan of buildout. Making it possible for packages to
> specify their dependencies is a big win...

Yup, it's a big win. But package installation for Python is a bit of a
mess right now. Neither setuptools nor buildout (nor pip for that
matter) are a standard part of Python. It's rather silly that although
Python is a batteries-included language, and it's mid-2009, and Python
3.1 has been released, that Python *still* doesn't have a standard
built-in way to handle package installation (including dependencies
and uninstallation).

My guess is that once distutils finishes getting spruced up, some
intrepid hacker is going to:

* take the best parts of pip and the best parts of setuptools (I don't
know anything about buildout),

* stir vigorously,

* ruthlessly remove the excess pieces,

* write good documentation for it,

* throw the result up on github/launchpad/bitbucket/whatever,

and then *that's* what everyone's going to start using and which will
eventually make it into the Python std lib.

But that's just my anon 2 cents.
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inky788 at gmail

Jul 10, 2009, 9:57 AM

Post #13 of 13 (316 views)
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Re: Where does setuptools live? [In reply to]

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