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reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7

Apr 20, 2005, 7:52 AM

Post #26 of 85 (2703 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Maxim Kasimov wrote:
>>
>> Use multi-line string literals.
>>
>> '''
>
> it will not help if there is another ''' or/and """ inside of code block

Yes, but how often do you use them? And aren't you consistent in the choice
of your quotes?

>> This whole 'code' is "commented out", and you can
>> use every type of """quote""" except three singles.
>>
>> '''
>>
>> Or, if you really like the spirit of goto,
>> use "if 0:".
>
> ... and add tabs to each string

Yes. Where's the problem?

M-x indent-region-ly yours,
Reinhold
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reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7

Apr 20, 2005, 7:53 AM

Post #27 of 85 (2696 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Maxim Kasimov wrote:

> uuuuf..., i don't requesting that "goto" was available in next versions of python,
> but i'm saying if it will be so, it will be easy and quickly _debug_ some skripts,
> _not only_ for commenting

If you want, you can always use the goto module.

Reinhold, no, I will not tell you where to find it
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tzot at sil-tec

Apr 20, 2005, 8:06 AM

Post #28 of 85 (2691 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:58:35 +0300, rumours say that Maxim Kasimov
<kasimov [at] i> might have written:

>>> if you need to comment a couple of code (and then uncomment ), what
>>> are you doing then?

>> Use comments?

>WOW, just greate! ... but i'd like to relax at some more interesting way than to comment each of rows

What editor exactly are you using that can't un/indent and un/comment a
block of lines? Obviously, neither vi, nor emacs, nor idle.
--
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best.
"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving." (from RFC1958)
I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually...
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tzot at sil-tec

Apr 20, 2005, 8:15 AM

Post #29 of 85 (2701 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:13:32 +0300, rumours say that Maxim Kasimov
<kasimov [at] i> might have written:

>but what if i just can't to do this becouse i'm working thrue ssh, and have to use only installed editors (such as vi)

If you use plain vi (not vim) and you want to comment e.g. 5 lines of
code, go to the first of these five and:

- if autoindent type:

5>>O^Dif 0:{ESC}

^D above is Ctrl-D, {ESC} is your Escape key

- if noautoindent type:

YP^Cif 0:{ESC}j5>>

^C above is literal ^, literal C, *NOT* Ctrl-C; {ESC} is your Escape key

To control autoindent, you can type:

:se ai

or

:se noai

If you need more help, I would gladly send you the output of `man vi'
from a non-GNU Unix. I can also send you the output of `man vim' from a
GNU system.
--
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best.
"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving." (from RFC1958)
I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


simon.brunning at gmail

Apr 20, 2005, 8:24 AM

Post #30 of 85 (2696 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

On 4/20/05, Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou <tzot [at] sil-tec> wrote:
> If you need more help, I would gladly send you the output of `man vi'
> from a non-GNU Unix. I can also send you the output of `man vim' from a
> GNU system.

It'll probably be easier to convince Guido to introduce a 'goto'
statement than it would be to learn vi.

I'm really not sure if I'm joking or not.

--
Cheers,
Simon B,
simon [at] brunningonline,
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/
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kasimov at i

Apr 20, 2005, 8:38 AM

Post #31 of 85 (2703 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:13:32 +0300, rumours say that Maxim Kasimov
> <kasimov [at] i> might have written:
>
>
>>but what if i just can't to do this becouse i'm working thrue ssh, and have to use only installed editors (such as vi)
>
>
> If you use plain vi (not vim) and you want to comment e.g. 5 lines of
> code, go to the first of these five and:
>
> - if autoindent type:
>
> 5>>O^Dif 0:{ESC}
>
> ^D above is Ctrl-D, {ESC} is your Escape key
>
> - if noautoindent type:
>
> YP^Cif 0:{ESC}j5>>
>
> ^C above is literal ^, literal C, *NOT* Ctrl-C; {ESC} is your Escape key
>
> To control autoindent, you can type:
>
> :se ai
>
> or
>
> :se noai
>
> If you need more help, I would gladly send you the output of `man vi'
> from a non-GNU Unix. I can also send you the output of `man vim' from a
> GNU system.

is it wrong to debug python script using python, but not some magic commands found somewhere in man ?

--
Best regards,
Maxim Kasimov
mailto: kasimov [at] i
--
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peter at engcorp

Apr 20, 2005, 8:45 AM

Post #32 of 85 (2714 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Maxim Kasimov wrote:
> uuuuf..., i don't requesting that "goto" was available in next versions
> of python, but i'm saying if it will be so, it will be easy and quickly
> _debug_ some skripts, _not only_ for commenting

Then we go right back to Simon Brunning's question for
you: "How does goto help you to remove bugs?"

Maxim, nobody is really saying that *you* cannot have
found goto useful in debugging (though we're curious
for a real example, rather than just rhetoric). What
most people are saying (roughly) is that after writing
tens (or hundreds) of thousands of lines of code, we
cannot think of examples where the value of "goto",
for debugging or otherwise, outweighs the incredible
damage it does to the structure and (thus) readability
of code. And keep in mind that many of us were raised
on languages like BASIC and yet we've learned, improved,
and moved on to the point where we fully understand the
perceived value of GOTO in the mind of a newbie, but
remain unconvinced that even (or especially!) for a newbie
it is a good idea to have it available.

So far, nobody on the "use goto!" side of the fence has
presented arguments that haven't already been shot down
dozens of times in this newsgroup and elsewhere. Of
course, we should all take this hint as a reminder that
this is a "religious" issue and that this particular
thread is not going to settle it once and for all.

-Peter
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


kasimov at i

Apr 20, 2005, 8:47 AM

Post #33 of 85 (2693 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

by the way, "goto" statement will be useful for writing more powerful obfuscators

--
Best regards,
Maxim Kasimov
mailto: kasimov [at] i
--
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peter at engcorp

Apr 20, 2005, 8:48 AM

Post #34 of 85 (2710 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

praba kar wrote:
> In Python what is equivalent to goto statement

The group has been remiss, starting mainly with Mage's
unfortunately dogmatic response.

What we meant to ask was this: why do you want it?

There are better, simpler, cleaner, more readable
ways to accomplish what you are trying to do, if you'll
only tell us what that is so we can show you.

-Peter
--
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tzot at sil-tec

Apr 20, 2005, 9:00 AM

Post #35 of 85 (2696 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:38:40 +0300, rumours say that Maxim Kasimov
<kasimov [at] i> might have written:

>> If you need more help, I would gladly send you the output of `man vi'
>> from a non-GNU Unix. I can also send you the output of `man vim' from a
>> GNU system.

>is it wrong to debug python script using python, but not some magic commands found somewhere in man ?

If you really believe you should use python to debug (and edit perhaps?)
python, use idle and X11 forwarding through your ssh connection instead
of vi. Then you have menu-driven block un/commenting and un/indenting.

Otherwise, I believe your reply above is slightly adrift (you wondered
what one can do to comment a block of code when using vi, and I replied
to that; I don't quite understand what your exact point is.)
--
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best.
"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving." (from RFC1958)
I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


tzot at sil-tec

Apr 20, 2005, 9:02 AM

Post #36 of 85 (2702 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:47:37 +0300, rumours say that Maxim Kasimov
<kasimov [at] i> might have written:

>by the way, "goto" statement will be useful for writing more powerful obfuscators

At this point in time you might want to reconsider what are the true
reasons you like python (if you really do :)
--
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best.
"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving." (from RFC1958)
I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


tzot at sil-tec

Apr 20, 2005, 9:06 AM

Post #37 of 85 (2696 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:24:19 +0100, rumours say that Simon Brunning
<simon.brunning [at] gmail> might have written:

>On 4/20/05, Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou <tzot [at] sil-tec> wrote:
>> If you need more help, I would gladly send you the output of `man vi'
>> from a non-GNU Unix. I can also send you the output of `man vim' from a
>> GNU system.

[Simon]
>It'll probably be easier to convince Guido to introduce a 'goto'
>statement than it would be to learn vi.

I just happened to learn vi first before emacs, and this precedence set
my preference. The only needed skill is to remember if you're in
'insert' or 'command' mode (or so I believe)...

>I'm really not sure if I'm joking or not.

Have you ever heard of anyone *joking* about their preferred or hated
text editor?-)
--
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best.
"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving." (from RFC1958)
I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


philippe at philippecmartin

Apr 20, 2005, 9:29 AM

Post #38 of 85 (2717 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

I do not want to pollute the debate but:

-) I remember a software QA managanager responsible for "C" coding rules
also not allowing us to use 'break', 'continue', or 'return' (in the middle
of a function).

Although I find them 'cleaner' than goto, would not use goto, and certainly
do use 'return' in the middle of functions, I also agree that some people
might think the former do reduce code readibility - ex: I , somehow, do not
feel good using 'continue' and 'break'.

-) Having worked on a few lex/yacc projects, I remmember being troubled ,as
I ported the resulting c code into an embedded environement, that the
latter extensively used gotos - Was that done only because people are not
supposed to look at the generated code - or is it also simpler to generate
non-structured C code ?

Regards,

Philippe



Peter Hansen wrote:

> Maxim Kasimov wrote:
>> uuuuf..., i don't requesting that "goto" was available in next versions
>> of python, but i'm saying if it will be so, it will be easy and quickly
> > _debug_ some skripts, _not only_ for commenting
>
> Then we go right back to Simon Brunning's question for
> you: "How does goto help you to remove bugs?"
>
> Maxim, nobody is really saying that *you* cannot have
> found goto useful in debugging (though we're curious
> for a real example, rather than just rhetoric). What
> most people are saying (roughly) is that after writing
> tens (or hundreds) of thousands of lines of code, we
> cannot think of examples where the value of "goto",
> for debugging or otherwise, outweighs the incredible
> damage it does to the structure and (thus) readability
> of code. And keep in mind that many of us were raised
> on languages like BASIC and yet we've learned, improved,
> and moved on to the point where we fully understand the
> perceived value of GOTO in the mind of a newbie, but
> remain unconvinced that even (or especially!) for a newbie
> it is a good idea to have it available.
>
> So far, nobody on the "use goto!" side of the fence has
> presented arguments that haven't already been shot down
> dozens of times in this newsgroup and elsewhere. Of
> course, we should all take this hint as a reminder that
> this is a "religious" issue and that this particular
> thread is not going to settle it once and for all.
>
> -Peter

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


grante at visi

Apr 20, 2005, 9:35 AM

Post #39 of 85 (2709 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

On 2005-04-20, Philippe C. Martin <philippe [at] philippecmartin> wrote:

> Although I find them 'cleaner' than goto, would not use goto,
> and certainly do use 'return' in the middle of functions, I
> also agree that some people might think the former do reduce
> code readibility - ex: I , somehow, do not feel good using
> 'continue' and 'break'.

Do you just avoid switch() statements? Or are you referring
only to loop bodies?

--
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at in my SLEEP again!!
visi.com
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philippe at philippecmartin

Apr 20, 2005, 9:37 AM

Post #40 of 85 (2713 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Loop bodies (for break)


Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2005-04-20, Philippe C. Martin <philippe [at] philippecmartin> wrote:
>
>> Although I find them 'cleaner' than goto, would not use goto,
>> and certainly do use 'return' in the middle of functions, I
>> also agree that some people might think the former do reduce
>> code readibility - ex: I , somehow, do not feel good using
>> 'continue' and 'break'.
>
> Do you just avoid switch() statements? Or are you referring
> only to loop bodies?
>

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steve at holdenweb

Apr 20, 2005, 10:12 AM

Post #41 of 85 (2709 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Philippe C. Martin wrote:
> I do not want to pollute the debate but:
>
> -) I remember a software QA managanager responsible for "C" coding rules
> also not allowing us to use 'break', 'continue', or 'return' (in the middle
> of a function).
>
And I once worked (back in the 1970's) in a software shop where "because
procedure calls are slow in PL/1" we had to write them so each procedure
ended with a GOTO to a specific label variable. You would call these
monstrosities in the following way:

MyProcReturn = DoneIt;
GOTO MyProc;
DoneIt:
...

Horrendous. I lasted about five months and then couldn't take the
ignorance and idiocy any longer. They refused to believe that a
recursive function could ever be useful in the real world (but then, if
you only have a hammer ...)

regards
Steve
--
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Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/

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philippe at philippecmartin

Apr 20, 2005, 10:34 AM

Post #42 of 85 (2715 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

I guess the point could be "where do you draw the line": you can break and
continue in Python, but you cannot goto. Some people, so it seems ;-) ,
would like to see gotos in Python whereas other think breaks and continues
should be excluded ...;

Regards,

Philippe



Steve Holden wrote:

> Philippe C. Martin wrote:
>> I do not want to pollute the debate but:
>>
>> -) I remember a software QA managanager responsible for "C" coding rules
>> also not allowing us to use 'break', 'continue', or 'return' (in the
>> middle of a function).
>>
> And I once worked (back in the 1970's) in a software shop where "because
> procedure calls are slow in PL/1" we had to write them so each procedure
> ended with a GOTO to a specific label variable. You would call these
> monstrosities in the following way:
>
> MyProcReturn = DoneIt;
> GOTO MyProc;
> DoneIt:
> ...
>
> Horrendous. I lasted about five months and then couldn't take the
> ignorance and idiocy any longer. They refused to believe that a
> recursive function could ever be useful in the real world (but then, if
> you only have a hammer ...)
>
> regards
> Steve

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nospam at here

Apr 20, 2005, 10:40 AM

Post #43 of 85 (2708 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:23:58 +0100 (BST), praba kar
<prabapython [at] yahoo> wrote:

>Dear All,
>
> In Python what is equivalent to goto statement

I'd like to that implemented in an interpreted language. Requires some
time travel.

Matt Feinstein

--
There is no virtue in believing something that can be proved to be true.
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rkern at ucsd

Apr 20, 2005, 11:08 AM

Post #44 of 85 (2700 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Matt Feinstein wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:23:58 +0100 (BST), praba kar
> <prabapython [at] yahoo> wrote:
>
>
>>Dear All,
>>
>> In Python what is equivalent to goto statement
>
>
> I'd like to that implemented in an interpreted language. Requires some
> time travel.

Yes, to 2004-04-01.

--
Robert Kern
rkern [at] ucsd

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

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claird at lairds

Apr 20, 2005, 11:08 AM

Post #45 of 85 (2705 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

In article <mailman.2163.1113997893.1799.python-list [at] python>,
Maxim Kasimov <kasimov [at] i> wrote:
>Simon Brunning wrote:
>> On 4/20/05, Maxim Kasimov <kasimov [at] i> wrote:
>>
>>>it would be quite useful for debuging porposes
>>
>>
>> How does goto help you to remove bugs?
>>
>> I can certainly see how it helps you put them in in the first place...
>>
>
>if you need to comment a couple of code (and then uncomment ), what are
>you doing then?
.
.
.
I might understand the question. I often have

if 0:
# This is code we never should need; I
# leave it here for expository purposes.
print some_key_debugging_information()

Does that help?
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claird at lairds

Apr 20, 2005, 11:08 AM

Post #46 of 85 (2709 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

In article <d45gap$elj$1 [at] news>,
Maxim Kasimov <kasimov [at] i> wrote:
.
.
.
>>> if you need to comment a couple of code (and then uncomment ), what
>>> are you doing then?
>>
>>
>> Use comments?
>>
>
>WOW, just greate! ... but i'd like to relax at some more interesting way
>than to comment each of rows
.
.
.
Mr. Kasimov, here's another idiom you might want to consider:


# Notice that we can make a code fragment into a string,
# which is evaluated, then discarded.
a = b
c = d
"""e = f
g = h
i = j"""
k = l
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postmaster at castleamber

Apr 20, 2005, 1:19 PM

Post #47 of 85 (2695 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Do Re Mi chel La Si Do wrote:

> +1

I am modded up :-D

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postmaster at castleamber

Apr 20, 2005, 1:23 PM

Post #48 of 85 (2711 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:

> John Bokma wrote:
>> Mage wrote:
>>
>>> praba kar wrote:
>>>
>>>>Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> In Python what is equivalent to goto statement
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You shouldn't use goto in high-level languages.
>>
>> Nonsense
>
> Thank you!
>
> Above all your claim is well justified.

You are probably smart enough to think of several situations that
justify the use of a goto (or something that is a goto in disguise, like
an early return in a function, a break or a continue, or a switch).

One can abuse a goto in any language, like every other language
construction. But don't make it a "shouldn't" like a law.

Some people take Dijkstra too serious. Learn to think for yourself, I am
sure he did.

--
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kasimov at i

Apr 21, 2005, 1:44 AM

Post #49 of 85 (2710 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

1. comment for debug

It can be used in the same way, as the comments for debugging are used, but it will be easier than to use """ or ''', or using features of text-editors,
when it is necessary to comment piece of code which already contains ''' or/and """ strings already, or there is another #-comments.
Using goto, you do not need to edit a code, which is unfamiliar to you.

2. obfuscators

goto can be used in the same way, as many of java-obfuscators do


Speaking in other words:
1) goto exempts from necessity to install new software (it is critical for remote working, for example, installing X11 may be impossible at all)
2) enables to make new, better software (better obfuscators)

--
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Maxim Kasimov
mailto: kasimov [at] i
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tundra at tundraware

Apr 21, 2005, 2:17 AM

Post #50 of 85 (2696 views)
Permalink
Re: goto statement [In reply to]

Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:

> John Bokma wrote:
>
>>Mage wrote:
>>
>>
>>>praba kar wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> In Python what is equivalent to goto statement
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>You shouldn't use goto in high-level languages.
>>
>>Nonsense

+1

>
>
> Thank you!
>
> Above all your claim is well justified. These brilliant arguments
> you have put forth really explain in a magnificent way why goto is a
> sane addition to any HLL.
>
> Reinhold

OK - Here's some reasoning that may illuminate it. We could, in theory,
reduce any language to the minimal Boehm & Jacopini control structures
(iirc there were only four). In effect, anything beyond these is
syntactic sugar. IOW, feel free to use a minimalist Turing Machine
to implement your next 100,000 line program.

I, on the other hand, have a really hard time finding infinite tapes (in
both directions) and a suitably fast tape reader to implement such
ideas. (I also seem to recall that any digital circuit can be
implemented with nothing more than AND and NOT gates, but I'd rather
not, thanks - I don't have enough probes on my oscilloscope to debug
that kind of hardware.)

Control structures/directives evolve to solve real problems. 'goto',
properly used, can actually clarify code, especially when dealing with
exceptions and the like. Oh, we may rename it and call it 'break' or
'try/except' or whatever suits the language author's fancy, but the
concept is similar, if not identical. 'goto' certainly could be
synthesized in Python with the appropriate try/except hierarchy
and custom exceptions, but in many cases this would *really* be overkill -
a simple 'goto' would be considerably simpler *and* probably easier
to understand. Note that I am not arguing for 'goto' in Python,
merely trying to respond to your point about why it is does not inherently
appropriate for HLLs.

Some HLLs almost have to have it by definition. I cut my teeth as programmer
writing for embedded realtime systems in a HLL (PL/M). While you could,
in theory, completely avoid 'goto' in a realtime environment, it would
make all manner of practical programming problems kind of ugly to implement.
BTW, all modern systems come complete with 'goto' implemented in
*hardware* - they're called "interrupts".

More to the point, I have seen some really tortured code written in the
name of maintaining religious purity of some kind ("Structure", "Object
Orientation",...). While language constructs can promote better- or
worse code structuring, at the end of the day, programming is still the
expression of human thought. Some people think clearly, some don't, and
this has little to do with just what language structures are in use.

Python is elegant at almost every level, and I am certainly not
arguing for 'goto' in the language. But to reflexively assume that
it has *no* place in a modern HLL is, I think, a bit overstated.


I must now 'goto' sleep ... and I cannot think of a better way
to express this...


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