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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 7, 2013, 1:17 AM

Post #1 of 22 (64 views)
Permalink
beginner question (True False help)
I'm trying to create an option for the program to repeat if the user types 'y' or 'yes', using true and false values, or otherwise end the program. If anyone could explain to me how to get this code working, I'd appreciate it.

letters='abcdefghijklmn'
batman=True
def thingy():
print('type letter from a to n')
typedletter=input()
if typedletter in letters:
print('yes')
else:
print('no')
def repeat():
print('go again?')
goagain=input()
if goagain in ('y', 'yes'):
print('ok')
else:
print('goodbye')
batman=False
while batman==True:
thingy()
repeat()
print('this is the end')
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joshua at landau

Aug 7, 2013, 1:42 AM

Post #2 of 22 (63 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
On 7 August 2013 09:17, <eschneider92 [at] comcast> wrote:
> I'm trying to create an option for the program to repeat if the user types 'y' or 'yes', using true and false values, or otherwise end the program. If anyone could explain to me how to get this code working, I'd appreciate it.

Always tell people what in particular you don't understand (*ducks*)
because it wasn't obvious what part of the problem you were unable to
fulfil.

> letters='abcdefghijklmn'
> batman=True
> def thingy():
> print('type letter from a to n')
> typedletter=input()
> if typedletter in letters:
> print('yes')
> else:
> print('no')
> def repeat():
> print('go again?')
> goagain=input()
> if goagain in ('y', 'yes'):
> print('ok')
> else:
> print('goodbye')
> batman=False

This doesn't do what you want it to.

x = "old thing"

def change_x():
x = "new thing"

change_x()

print(x) # Not changed!

The solution is to put "global x" at the start of the function.

> while batman==True:
> thingy()
> repeat()
> print('this is the end')


Note that this isn't actually a good way to do it. Imagine you had
several hundred function -- would you really want to have an
equivalent number of names floating around that you have to look
after?

The solution is to make the functions simply return values:

x = "old thing"

def return_thing():
x = "new thing"
return "new thing" # You can do this in one line

x = return_thing() # Get the value from the function and change x with it


Does this make sense?
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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 7, 2013, 1:59 PM

Post #3 of 22 (54 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
What I wanted to happen is when the user typed something other than 'y' or 'yes' after being asked 'go again?', the batman==False line would cause the program to stop asking anything and say 'this is the end'. Instead, what is happening is that the program just keeps going. I figured that after defining the function (thingy(), repeat()), that the while statement would repeat until the 'go again' user input was something other than 'y' or 'yes', and the batman==False part of the repeat() function would cause the 'while batman==True' part to become False and end. You probably answered my question and I'm too dumb to see it, but that's a slight elaboration on my problem.
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davea at davea

Aug 7, 2013, 6:18 PM

Post #4 of 22 (53 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
eschneider92 [at] comcast wrote:

> What I wanted to happen is when the user typed something other than 'y' or 'yes' after being asked 'go again?', the batman==False line would cause the program to stop asking anything and say 'this is the end'. Instead, what is happening is that the program just keeps going. I figured that after defining the function (thingy(), repeat()), that the while statement would repeat until the 'go again' user input was something other than 'y' or 'yes', and the batman==False part of the repeat() function would cause the 'while batman==True' part to become False and end. You probably answered my question and I'm too dumb to see it, but that's a slight elaboration on my problem.

When you assign a variable inside a function, it has no effect on a
global variable with similar name. In order to make it change the
global, you'd have needed the global declaration.

Try this:

var = 42
def myfunc():
var = 90


print "before:", var
myfunc()
print "after:", var

Now, change the function, by adding a declaration:

def myfunc():
global var
var = 90

and the result will change.


--
DaveA


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orgnut at yahoo

Aug 7, 2013, 7:49 PM

Post #5 of 22 (53 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
On 08/07/2013 01:17 AM, eschneider92 [at] comcast wrote:
> I'm trying to create an option for the program to repeat if the user types 'y' or 'yes', using true and false values, or otherwise end the program. If anyone could explain to me how to get this code working, I'd appreciate it.
>
> letters='abcdefghijklmn'
> batman=True
> def thingy():
> print('type letter from a to n')
> typedletter=input()
> if typedletter in letters:
> print('yes')
> else:
> print('no')
> def repeat():
> print('go again?')
> goagain=input()
> if goagain in ('y', 'yes'):
> print('ok')
> else:
> print('goodbye')
> batman=False
> while batman==True:
> thingy()
> repeat()
> print('this is the end')
>
You've already received answers to this, primarily pointing out that batman needs to be declared
as global in your repeat() function. Global variables can be read from inside a function
without declaring them as such, but if you need to change them, they MUST be declared as
globals, otherwise it will merely create an independant local variable with the same name.

A second possibility is to do away with batman in the repeat() function, and instead return True
in the 'yes' clause and False in the else clause. Then in your while loop, change the repeat()
line to:
batman = repeat()

A third version (which I would prefer) is to do away with batman altogether (maybe the Penguin
got 'im??) ;-) Use the True/False version of repeat() and change the while loop to:

while True:
thingy()
if not repeat():
break

And finally unindent your final print() line. The way you have it will print 'The end' every
time in your loop. Not what you want, I'm sure.

-=- Larry -=-

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wxjmfauth at gmail

Aug 7, 2013, 11:20 PM

Post #6 of 22 (51 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
Le mercredi 7 août 2013 10:17:21 UTC+2, eschne...@comcast.net a écrit :
> I'm trying to create an option for the program to repeat if the user types 'y' or 'yes', using true and false values, or otherwise end the program. If anyone could explain to me how to get this code working, I'd appreciate it.
>
>
>
> letters='abcdefghijklmn'
>
> batman=True
>
> def thingy():
>
> print('type letter from a to n')
>
> typedletter=input()
>
> if typedletter in letters:
>
> print('yes')
>
> else:
>
> print('no')
>
> def repeat():
>
> print('go again?')
>
> goagain=input()
>
> if goagain in ('y', 'yes'):
>
> print('ok')
>
> else:
>
> print('goodbye')
>
> batman=False
>
> while batman==True:
>
> thingy()
>
> repeat()
>
> print('this is the end')

-----------

Your loop is not very well organized. It should be
at the same time the "loop" and the "condition tester".
Compare your code with this and note the missing and
unnecessary "batman":


>>> def z():
... letters = 'abc'
... c = input('letter: ')
... while c in letters:
... print('do stuff')
... c = input('letter: ')
... print('end, fin, Schluss')
...
>>> z()
letter: a
do stuff
letter: b
do stuff
letter: b
do stuff
letter: c
do stuff
letter: n
end, fin, Schluss
>>>
>>> z()
letter: q
end, fin, Schluss


Variant
It is common to use a infinite loop and to break it
in order to end the job.


>>> def z2():
... letters = 'abc'
... while True:
... c = input('letter: ')
... if c not in letters:
... print('end, fin, Schluss')
... break
... else:
... print('do stuff')
...
>>> z2()
letter: a
do stuff
letter: b
do stuff
letter: a
do stuff
letter: q
end, fin, Schluss


jmf
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rosuav at gmail

Aug 8, 2013, 4:41 AM

Post #7 of 22 (50 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 7:20 AM, <wxjmfauth [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>> def z2():
> ... letters = 'abc'
> ... while True:
> ... c = input('letter: ')
> ... if c not in letters:
> ... print('end, fin, Schluss')
> ... break
> ... else:
> ... print('do stuff')


Minor quibble: I don't like having a hard exit followed by an "else".
If the "if" branch will unconditionally quit the loop (with a break,
here, but could also be a return, a thrown exception, etc etc), I
would prefer to see the "else" removed and its code unindented one
level. Maybe this is just personal preference, though, learned from
assembly language programming where a "block if" looks something like
this:

; if x == y:
CMP x,y
JNZ .else
; Code for "x == y"
JMP .endif
.else:
; Code for "else"
.endif

Putting an unconditional departure in the "x == y" branch makes the
"JMP .endif" redundant.

ChrisA
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tjreedy at udel

Aug 8, 2013, 1:29 PM

Post #8 of 22 (48 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
On 8/8/2013 7:41 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 7:20 AM, <wxjmfauth [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>>> def z2():
>> ... letters = 'abc'
>> ... while True:
>> ... c = input('letter: ')
>> ... if c not in letters:
>> ... print('end, fin, Schluss')
>> ... break
>> ... else:
>> ... print('do stuff')
>
>
> Minor quibble: I don't like having a hard exit followed by an "else".

Whereas I tend to prefer to have the two alternatives cleanly marked as
alternatives by both being indented the same.

Many alternatives are not so trivial as the above. I remember reading
one snippet in the CPython codebase where the 'else' was omitted and the
if clause subdivided into about three paths. It took at least a minute
to determine that all paths terminated in such a way that there really
was an inplied else. How much easier it would have been to read the code
if the author had explicitly types the 'else'.

> If the "if" branch will unconditionally quit the loop (with a break,
> here, but could also be a return, a thrown exception, etc etc), I
> would prefer to see the "else" removed and its code unindented one
> level. Maybe this is just personal preference, though, learned from
> assembly language programming where a "block if" looks something like
> this:
>
> ; if x == y:
> CMP x,y
> JNZ .else
> ; Code for "x == y"
> JMP .endif
> .else:
> ; Code for "else"
> .endif
>
> Putting an unconditional departure in the "x == y" branch makes the
> "JMP .endif" redundant.

Python is not assembly ;-). 3.3 effectively ignores the extraneous
'else:'. Either way, if the condition is false, control jumps to the
second print. For what little it matters, the bytecode is the same length.

def f():
while True:
if a:
b = 1
break
else:
b = 2

>>> dis(f)
2 0 SETUP_LOOP 25 (to 28)

3 >> 3 LOAD_GLOBAL 0 (a)
6 POP_JUMP_IF_FALSE 19

4 9 LOAD_CONST 1 (1)
12 STORE_FAST 0 (b)

5 15 BREAK_LOOP
16 JUMP_ABSOLUTE 3

7 >> 19 LOAD_CONST 2 (2)
22 STORE_FAST 0 (b)
25 JUMP_ABSOLUTE 3
>> 28 LOAD_CONST 0 (None)
31 RETURN_VALUE

def f():
while True:
if a:
b = 1
break
b = 2

>>> dis(f)
2 0 SETUP_LOOP 25 (to 28)

3 >> 3 LOAD_GLOBAL 0 (a)
6 POP_JUMP_IF_FALSE 19

4 9 LOAD_CONST 1 (1)
12 STORE_FAST 0 (b)

5 15 BREAK_LOOP
16 JUMP_FORWARD 0 (to 19)

6 >> 19 LOAD_CONST 2 (2)
22 STORE_FAST 0 (b)
25 JUMP_ABSOLUTE 3
>> 28 LOAD_CONST 0 (None)
31 RETURN_VALUE

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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wxjmfauth at gmail

Aug 9, 2013, 1:05 AM

Post #9 of 22 (46 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
Le jeudi 8 août 2013 22:29:00 UTC+2, Terry Reedy a écrit :
> On 8/8/2013 7:41 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 7:20 AM, <wxjmfauth [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> >>>>> def z2():
>
> >> ... letters = 'abc'
>
> >> ... while True:
>
> >> ... c = input('letter: ')
>
> >> ... if c not in letters:
>
> >> ... print('end, fin, Schluss')
>
> >> ... break
>
> >> ... else:
>
> >> ... print('do stuff')
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Minor quibble: I don't like having a hard exit followed by an "else".
>
>
>
> Whereas I tend to prefer to have the two alternatives cleanly marked as
>
> alternatives by both being indented the same.
>
>
>
> Many alternatives are not so trivial as the above. I remember reading
>
> one snippet in the CPython codebase where the 'else' was omitted and the
>
> if clause subdivided into about three paths. It took at least a minute
>
> to determine that all paths terminated in such a way that there really
>
> was an inplied else. How much easier it would have been to read the code
>
> if the author had explicitly types the 'else'.
>
>
>
> > If the "if" branch will unconditionally quit the loop (with a break,
>
> > here, but could also be a return, a thrown exception, etc etc), I
>
> > would prefer to see the "else" removed and its code unindented one
>
> > level. Maybe this is just personal preference, though, learned from
>
> > assembly language programming where a "block if" looks something like
>
> > this:
>
> >
>
> > ; if x == y:
>
> > CMP x,y
>
> > JNZ .else
>
> > ; Code for "x == y"
>
> > JMP .endif
>
> > .else:
>
> > ; Code for "else"
>
> > .endif
>
> >
>
> > Putting an unconditional departure in the "x == y" branch makes the
>
> > "JMP .endif" redundant.
>
>
>
> Python is not assembly ;-). 3.3 effectively ignores the extraneous
>
> 'else:'. Either way, if the condition is false, control jumps to the
>
> second print. For what little it matters, the bytecode is the same length.
>
>
>
> def f():
>
> while True:
>
> if a:
>
> b = 1
>
> break
>
> else:
>
> b = 2
>
>
>
> >>> dis(f)
>
> 2 0 SETUP_LOOP 25 (to 28)
>
>
>
> 3 >> 3 LOAD_GLOBAL 0 (a)
>
> 6 POP_JUMP_IF_FALSE 19
>
>
>
> 4 9 LOAD_CONST 1 (1)
>
> 12 STORE_FAST 0 (b)
>
>
>
> 5 15 BREAK_LOOP
>
> 16 JUMP_ABSOLUTE 3
>
>
>
> 7 >> 19 LOAD_CONST 2 (2)
>
> 22 STORE_FAST 0 (b)
>
> 25 JUMP_ABSOLUTE 3
>
> >> 28 LOAD_CONST 0 (None)
>
> 31 RETURN_VALUE
>
>
>
> def f():
>
> while True:
>
> if a:
>
> b = 1
>
> break
>
> b = 2
>
>
>
> >>> dis(f)
>
> 2 0 SETUP_LOOP 25 (to 28)
>
>
>
> 3 >> 3 LOAD_GLOBAL 0 (a)
>
> 6 POP_JUMP_IF_FALSE 19
>
>
>
> 4 9 LOAD_CONST 1 (1)
>
> 12 STORE_FAST 0 (b)
>
>
>
> 5 15 BREAK_LOOP
>
> 16 JUMP_FORWARD 0 (to 19)
>
>
>
> 6 >> 19 LOAD_CONST 2 (2)
>
> 22 STORE_FAST 0 (b)
>
> 25 JUMP_ABSOLUTE 3
>
> >> 28 LOAD_CONST 0 (None)
>
> 31 RETURN_VALUE
>
>
>
> --
>
> Terry Jan Reedy

-----

The problem of this guy is not at this level.
His problem is more simply, he most probably
does not understand how to build a correct,
proper loop.

"What I wanted to happen is when the user typed something ...
... would cause the program to stop ... "


jmf
--
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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 9, 2013, 3:27 PM

Post #10 of 22 (45 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
This is what I ended up with btw. Does this insult anyone's more well attuned Python sensibilities?

letters='abcdefghijkl'
def repeat():
print('wanna go again?')
batman=input()
if batman in ('y','yes'):
main()
else:
return
def main():
print('guess a letter')
batman=input()
if batman in letters:
print('ok that letter was in letters')
repeat()
else:
print('asdasdasd')
repeat()
main()
print('how ya doin')
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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 9, 2013, 3:28 PM

Post #11 of 22 (45 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
This is what I ended up with btw. Does this insult anyone's more well-attuned Pythonic sensibilities?

letters='abcdefghijkl'
def repeat():
print('wanna go again?')
batman=input()
if batman in ('y','yes'):
main()
else:
return
def main():
print('guess a letter')
batman=input()
if batman in letters:
print('ok that letter was in letters')
repeat()
else:
print('asdasdasd')
repeat()
main()
print('how ya doin')
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joshua at landau

Aug 9, 2013, 4:05 PM

Post #12 of 22 (45 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
On 9 August 2013 23:27, <eschneider92 [at] comcast> wrote:
> This is what I ended up with btw. Does this insult anyone's more well attuned Python sensibilities?

...

Yes.

You didn't listen to any of the advice we've been giving you. You've
had *much* better answers given than this.


Start from the top.

We need letters, so define that:

letters = "abcdefghijkl"

We then want to loop, possibly forever. A good choice is a "while" loop.

# True is always True, so will loop forever
while True:

We then want to ask for a letter. We want to use "input". Write
"help(input)" in the Python Shell and you get

>>> help(input)
Help on built-in function input in module builtins:

input(...)
input([prompt]) -> string

Read a string from standard input. The trailing newline is stripped.
If the user hits EOF (Unix: Ctl-D, Windows: Ctl-Z+Return),
raise EOFError.
On Unix, GNU readline is used if enabled. The prompt string, if given,
is printed without a trailing newline before reading.

So our line should be:

letter = input("Type a letter from 'a' to 'n' in the alphabet: ")

Then we want to test if it's on of our letters:

if letter in letters:

And if so we want to say something positive:

print("That's right.")

If not we want to say something negative:

else:
print("That's wrong.")

And then we want to ask if we should go again:

go_again = input("Do you want to do this again? ")

If the response is "y" or "yes", we want to continue looping. The
while loop will do that automatically, so we can do nothing in this
circumstance.

If the response in *not* "y" or "yes", we want to stop:

if go_again not in ("y", "yes"):
break


That's it. No need to complicate things. Just take it one step at a time.
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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 9, 2013, 4:14 PM

Post #13 of 22 (45 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
I don't understand any of the advice any of you have given.
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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 9, 2013, 4:24 PM

Post #14 of 22 (41 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
Thanks, though me not utilizing any of the other advice wasn't from lack of trying; I couldn't understand any of it. I get it now that I have a corrrect example code in front of me.
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joshua at landau

Aug 9, 2013, 4:30 PM

Post #15 of 22 (41 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
On 10 August 2013 00:14, <eschneider92 [at] comcast> wrote:
> I don't understand any of the advice any of you have given.

What about it don't you understand? Pick a sentence you don't
understand and throw it back at us. If you understand all the
sentences but not how they come together, say so. If there's a leap
that you don't understand, say that you don't get it.

We've tried rephrasing things a few ways but without any interaction
we can't really help.

---

You have said "I figured that ... the batman==False part of the
repeat() function would cause the 'while batman==True' part to become
False and end."

We have said this is untrue. The "batman = False" inside the function
does not affect "batman" outside of the function. You need to put
"global batman" in the function for it to change "batman" on a global
scope.

You've not once explained what part of this explanation confuses you.
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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 9, 2013, 4:34 PM

Post #16 of 22 (41 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
What does global mean?
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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 9, 2013, 4:40 PM

Post #17 of 22 (41 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
(I forgot to post this with my last post.)
Also, I don't understand any part of the following example, so there's no specific line that's confusing me. Thanks for the help btw.

var = 42
def myfunc():
var = 90

print "before:", var
myfunc()
print "after:", var

def myfunc():
global var
var = 90

--
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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 9, 2013, 4:43 PM

Post #18 of 22 (40 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
(I forgot to post this with my last post.)
Also, I don't understand any part of the following example, so there's no specific line that's confusing me. Thanks for the help btw.

var = 42
def myfunc():
var = 90

print "before:", var
myfunc()
print "after:", var

def myfunc():
global var
var = 90
--
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python at mrabarnett

Aug 9, 2013, 5:39 PM

Post #19 of 22 (41 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
On 10/08/2013 00:40, eschneider92 [at] comcast wrote:
> (I forgot to post this with my last post.)
> Also, I don't understand any part of the following example, so there's no specific line that's confusing me. Thanks for the help btw.
>
You don't understand _any_ of it?


> var = 42

Here you're assigning to 'var'. You're not in a function, so 'var' is a
global variable.

> def myfunc():
> var = 90

Here you're assigning to 'var'. If you assign to a variable anywhere in
a function, and you don't say that that variable is global, then it's
treated as being local to that function, and completely unrelated to
any other variable outside that function.
>
> print "before:", var
> myfunc()
> print "after:", var
>
> def myfunc():
> global var
> var = 90
>
Here you're assigning to 'var', but this time you've declared that it's
global, so you're assigning to the global variable called 'var'.

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eschneider92 at comcast

Aug 9, 2013, 6:08 PM

Post #20 of 22 (41 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
I'm sorry, but I still don't understand how it applies to my problem. Thanks for everyone's patience.
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joshua at landau

Aug 9, 2013, 6:22 PM

Post #21 of 22 (34 views)
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Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
On 10 August 2013 00:34, <eschneider92 [at] comcast> wrote:
> What does global mean?

Python has "scopes" for its variables. Most programming languages do.
A "scope" is a restriction on where variables exist -- they exist only
within the scope.

This can be seen in this example:

def function():
# A new "scope" is made when you enter a function
variable = 100

function()
print(variable)
# Error, as variable doesn't exist outside of "function"'s scope

There are lots of different "scopes" in code. Every function has one,
and there are some more too.

One of the scopes is the "global" scope. This is the scope *outside*
of all the functions and other scopes. Everything in the file is
within this sope:

# Make in global scope
variable = 100

def function():
# Works because we're inside the global scope
print(variable)

# Prints "100"
function()

So "a = b" inside the function applies to the function's scope, but
when accessing variables (such as "print(variable)") it will look in
all of the outer scopes too.

If you want to write "a = b" inside the function and change the global
scope, you need to say that "a" refers to the "a" in the global scope.
You do that like this:

def function():
# "variable" is in the global scope, not the functions'
global variable
variable = 100

function()
# Prints "100"
print(variable)


Does that help you understand what "global" means?
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steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood

Aug 9, 2013, 6:40 PM

Post #22 of 22 (33 views)
Permalink
Re: beginner question (True False help) [In reply to]
On Fri, 09 Aug 2013 16:34:48 -0700, eschneider92 wrote:

> What does global mean?

Hi eschneider92,

A few bits of advice:

- You may like to actually sign your emails with a real name, or at least
an alias that you want to be called, otherwise we'll just call you by
your email address, and apart from sounding silly, many people don't like
that.

- You might also find that the tutor mailing list is a better match for
your status as a complete beginner to Python. You can subscribe to it
here:

http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor


- If you do, please take my advice and use individual emails, not daily
digests. It is MUCH easier to carry on a back-and-forth conversation with
individual emails.

- Please try to quote enough of the message you are replying to to
establish context, but without filling the email with page after page of
irrelevant history. (Notice the line at the top of this message, starting
with ">"? That's what you previously wrote.) If you need help configuring
your email program to quote the previous message, just ask.



--
Steven
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