Mailing List Archive: Python: Dev

VS 11 Express is Metro only.

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tjreedy at udel

May 24, 2012, 3:21 PM

Post #1 of 15 (552 views)
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VS 11 Express is Metro only.

The free Visual Studio 11 Express for Windows 8 (still in beta) will
produce both 32 and 64 bit binaries and allow multiple languages but
will only produce Metro apps. For desktop apps, either the paid Visual
Studio versions or the free 2010 Express releases are required.
https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/11/en-us/products/express
bottom of page.

Will this inhibit someday moving to Visual Studio 11 Professional or
would VS2010 Express or VC++2010 Express still work for hacking on
Python or making extensions that would work with any VS11-produced binary?

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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brian at python

May 24, 2012, 3:26 PM

Post #2 of 15 (543 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy [at] udel> wrote:
> The free Visual Studio 11 Express for Windows 8 (still in beta) will produce
> both 32 and 64 bit binaries and allow multiple languages but will only
> produce Metro apps. For desktop apps, either the paid Visual Studio versions
> or the free 2010 Express releases are required.
> https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/11/en-us/products/express
> bottom of page.
>
> Will this inhibit someday moving to Visual Studio 11 Professional or would
> VS2010 Express or VC++2010 Express still work for hacking on Python or
> making extensions that would work with any VS11-produced binary?

I don't know. Maybe?

Windows 8 and VS11 are still not released so who knows what will happen.
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martin at v

May 24, 2012, 3:36 PM

Post #3 of 15 (541 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

> The free Visual Studio 11 Express for Windows 8 (still in beta) will
> produce both 32 and 64 bit binaries and allow multiple languages but
> will only produce Metro apps. For desktop apps, either the paid
> Visual Studio versions or the free 2010 Express releases are required.
> https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/11/en-us/products/express
> bottom of page.
>
> Will this inhibit someday moving to Visual Studio 11 Professional or
> would VS2010 Express or VC++2010 Express still work for hacking on
> Python or making extensions that would work with any VS11-produced
> binary?

I think it's too early to guess what the final release of Visual Studio
11 Express will or will not include.

Regards,
Martin

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jsbueno at python

May 25, 2012, 4:43 AM

Post #4 of 15 (530 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

On 24 May 2012 19:36, <martin [at] v> wrote:
>> The free Visual Studio 11 Express for Windows 8 (still in beta) will
>> produce both 32 and 64 bit binaries and allow multiple languages but will
>> only produce Metro apps. For desktop apps, either the paid Visual Studio
>> versions or the free 2010 Express releases are required.
>> https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/11/en-us/products/express
>> bottom of page.
>>
>> Will this inhibit someday moving to Visual Studio 11 Professional or would
>> VS2010 Express or VC++2010 Express still work for hacking on Python or
>> making extensions that would work with any VS11-produced binary?
>
>
> I think it's too early to guess what the final release of Visual Studio
> 11 Express will or will not include.

It is better documented here, and seems something to start thinking about:

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/

>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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martin at v

May 25, 2012, 5:06 AM

Post #5 of 15 (531 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

> It is better documented here, and seems something to start thinking about:
>
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/

This isn't actually better documentation, since it talks about the future,
without being "official" (i.e. it's Peter Bright's opinion, not a Microsoft
announcement).

I hereby predict that Microsoft will revert this decision, and that VS Express
11 will be able to build CPython.

Regards,
Martin

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curt at hagenlocher

May 25, 2012, 5:17 AM

Post #6 of 15 (527 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 5:06 AM, <martin [at] v> wrote:

> It is better documented here, and seems something to start thinking about:
>>
>> http://arstechnica.com/**information-technology/2012/**
>> 05/no-cost-desktop-software-**development-is-dead-on-**windows-8/<http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/>
>>
>
> This isn't actually better documentation, since it talks about the future,
> without being "official" (i.e. it's Peter Bright's opinion, not a Microsoft
> announcement).
>
> I hereby predict that Microsoft will revert this decision, and that VS
> Express
> 11 will be able to build CPython.
>

But will it be able to target Windows XP?

http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/690617/bug-apps-created-with-crt-and-mfc-vnext-11-cannot-be-used-on-windows-xp-sp3

(Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, but I know nothing about either of these
topics.)

-Curt

ncoghlan at gmail

May 25, 2012, 6:36 AM

Post #7 of 15 (529 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Curt Hagenlocher <curt [at] hagenlocher> wrote:
> But will it be able to target Windows XP?
>
> http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/690617/bug-apps-created-with-crt-and-mfc-vnext-11-cannot-be-used-on-windows-xp-sp3

The key things to remember at this point:

1. There's every chance Microsoft will reverse this decision, for all
the reasons they introduced the Express editions of Visual Studio in
the first place (e.g. to stop haemorrhaging hobbyist developers to
other ecosystems where development tools aren't a profit centre). The
collective "WTF?!" from third parties at their current approach
(eloquently expressed by Peter Bright over at Ars) is going to be hard
for even the most passionate Metro advocates to ignore.
2. It's going to be at least 18 months before CPython's Windows build
is likely to migrate to VS2011, and if there's still no desktop app
support in the Express edition at that time, that will be a strong
argument against migrating.

Cheers,
Nick.

--
Nick Coghlan�� |�� ncoghlan [at] gmail�� |�� Brisbane, Australia
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martin at v

May 30, 2012, 12:43 PM

Post #8 of 15 (482 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

> I hereby predict that Microsoft will revert this decision, and that
> VS Express
> 11 will be able to build CPython.
>
> But will it be able to target Windows XP?

I'll still need to try. I couldn't easily find a Windows XP installation
to try out whether a hello world application runs on XP.

Please understand that Visual Studio never had the notion of
"targetting" an operating system. The Windows SDK has that notion,
and it appears that targetting XP continues to be supported. Visual
Studio C/C++ only targets Debug vs. Release, and Win32 vs. IA-64 vs.
x64 (leaving CE/Windows Mobile/WP7 aside).

The only place where platform support matters is the CRT, and this is
what I still want to test. E.g. it might be that the C RT works on XP,
and the C++ RT might use newer API.

Regards,
Martin

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nyamatongwe at me

May 30, 2012, 4:21 PM

Post #9 of 15 (487 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

Curt:

>> But will it be able to target Windows XP?

It will likely be possible in a reasonable manner at some point. From http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-look-ahead-at-the-visual-studio-11-product-lineup-and-platform-support.aspx :

"""C++ developers can also use the multi-targeting capability included in Visual Studio 11 to continue using the compilers and libraries included in Visual Studio 2010 to target Windows XP and Windows Server 2003. Multi-targeting for C++ applications currently requires a side-by-side installation of Visual Studio 2010. Separately, we are evaluating options for C++ that would enable developers to directly target XP without requiring a side-by-side installation of Visual Studio 2010 and intend to deliver this update post-RTM. """

Martin v. L�wis wrote:

> The only place where platform support matters is the CRT, and this is
> what I still want to test. E.g. it might be that the C RT works on XP,
> and the C++ RT might use newer API.

C++ runtime is more dependent on post-XP features than C runtime but even the C runtime currently needs some thunks:
http://tedwvc.wordpress.com/

Neil

larry at hastings

May 30, 2012, 5:05 PM

Post #10 of 15 (481 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

On 05/30/2012 12:43 PM, "Martin v. L�wis" wrote:
> Please understand that Visual Studio never had the notion of
> "targetting" an operating system. The Windows SDK has that notion, and
> it appears that targetting XP continues to be supported.

I may be misremembering, but--the C API of necessity calls the Win32
API. So if Microsoft chooses to call new Win32 APIs as part of the C
API, this can force you to require a minimum Windows version. I dimly
recall an incident some years back where part of the startup code for a
C program (code called before main / WinMain) was calling a newish API,
and thus programs generated with that version of the compiler could not
support older Windows versions.

//arry/

martin at v

May 31, 2012, 9:47 AM

Post #11 of 15 (475 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

> I hereby predict that Microsoft will revert this decision, and that
> VS Express 11 will be able to build CPython.
>
> But will it be able to target Windows XP?

I have now tried, and it seems that the chances are really low (unless
you use the VS 2010 tool chain, in which case you can just as well use
VS 2010 Express in the first place).

The VS 11 linker sets the "OS version" and "subsystem version" to 6.0,
which means that XP refuses to recognize the files as executables. While
the /subsystem switch allows to specify a different version, specifying
5.02 (needed for XP) gives an error that this is smaller than the
minimum supported version. So for that reason alone, VS 11 cannot
produce binaries that work on XP, but that would be easy to change for
MS.

In addition, the CRT uses various API in its startup code already that
are Vista+. I already mentioned GetTickCount64, which is used to
initialize the security cookie (for /GS). In addition, TLS is now
implemented using FlsAlloc to better support fibers, which is also
Vista+. This dependency cannot be easily broken, except to access
FlsAlloc through LoadLibrary/GetProcAddress or weak externals. There
may be more dependencies on Vista+.

Regards,
Martin
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meadori at gmail

Jun 8, 2012, 12:01 PM

Post #12 of 15 (439 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:06 AM, <martin [at] v> wrote:

> I hereby predict that Microsoft will revert this decision, and that VS
> Express
> 11 will be able to build CPython.

And your prediction was right on :-) :
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/08/visual-studio-express-2012-for-windows-desktop.aspx.

--
# Meador
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jnoller at gmail

Jun 11, 2012, 3:26 AM

Post #13 of 15 (426 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

On Friday, June 8, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Meador Inge wrote:

> On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:06 AM, <martin [at] v (mailto:martin [at] v)> wrote:
>
> > I hereby predict that Microsoft will revert this decision, and that VS
> > Express
> > 11 will be able to build CPython.
>
>
>
> And your prediction was right on :-) :
> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/08/visual-studio-express-2012-for-windows-desktop.aspx.
>
Martin's predictions are sometimes eerily correct. ;)

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larry at hastings

Jun 15, 2012, 6:17 PM

Post #14 of 15 (417 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

On 05/31/2012 09:47 AM, "Martin v. L�wis" wrote:
>> I hereby predict that Microsoft will revert this decision, and that
>> VS Express 11 will be able to build CPython.
>>
>> But will it be able to target Windows XP?
>
> I have now tried, and it seems that the chances are really low (unless
> you use the VS 2010 tool chain, in which case you can just as well use
> VS 2010 Express in the first place).

Microsoft is now claiming that it will be able to using something called
"multi-targeting", "later this year.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2012/06/15/10320645.aspx

//arry/

martin at v

Jun 17, 2012, 3:37 AM

Post #15 of 15 (409 views)
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Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only. [In reply to]

> Microsoft is now claiming that it will be able to using something called
> "multi-targeting", "later this year.
>
> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2012/06/15/10320645.aspx

Interesting. Unlike the re-addition of desktop app support for Express,
which was a purely political decision, this change likely involves
significant code changes to the CRT, in particular if they aim for a
single CRT that works on XP but uses newer features on Vista+.

At the downside for CPython, this probably also means that they will not
extend the life of VS 2010 just to support XP, as they can tell people
to switch to VS 2012 and still support XP. So VS 2010 will probably
expire on 07/14/2015 for mainstream support as planned today.

So for 3.4, we have to ask whether to switch to VS 2012 or stay with
VS 2010, and for 3.5, we have to ask whether to switch to VS 2014
(assuming that's when the next release is made).

Regards,
Martin
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