Mailing List Archive: Python: Dev

netiquette on py-dev

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ethan at stoneleaf

Apr 24, 2012, 1:46 PM

Post #1 of 11 (200 views)
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netiquette on py-dev

Okay, advice please.

When responding to posts, should the poster to whom I am responding be
listed as well as python-dev, or should my responses just go to python-dev?

I see both ways occuring, and am not sure if one or the other is preferred.

As a reference point, on python-list I almost never have the previous
respondent's email in the CC list.

~Ethan~
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solipsis at pitrou

Apr 24, 2012, 2:42 PM

Post #2 of 11 (186 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:46:51 -0700
Ethan Furman <ethan [at] stoneleaf> wrote:
> Okay, advice please.
>
> When responding to posts, should the poster to whom I am responding be
> listed as well as python-dev, or should my responses just go to python-dev?

I prefer responses to python-dev only myself; I am always a bit annoyed
to get some responses in (half-)private, since that's just duplicate
with me reading the list with gmane.

Regards

Antoine.

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phd at phdru

Apr 24, 2012, 2:50 PM

Post #3 of 11 (186 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 01:46:51PM -0700, Ethan Furman <ethan [at] stoneleaf> wrote:
> When responding to posts, should the poster to whom I am responding
> be listed as well as python-dev, or should my responses just go to
> python-dev?

I reply to list only, except when I want extra attention (e.g. when I
direct people to comp.lang.python). My MUA has 3 reply commands - reply
to the author, group reply (reply to all) and list reply (mailing lists
are configured) so it's easy for me to choose which way I'm replying.

Oleg.
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Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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tseaver at palladion

Apr 24, 2012, 3:21 PM

Post #4 of 11 (187 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

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Hash: SHA1

On 04/24/2012 04:46 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> Okay, advice please.
>
> When responding to posts, should the poster to whom I am responding be
> listed as well as python-dev, or should my responses just go to
> python-dev?
>
> I see both ways occuring, and am not sure if one or the other is
> preferred.
>
> As a reference point, on python-list I almost never have the previous
> respondent's email in the CC list.

I prefer not to be CC'ed, as I am gonna read the message on the list
anyway. I almost never CC the author on a list post, unless specifically
asked (e.g., where the list is not open-subscription, as in a security
response list). I occasionally CC a third user whom I know is
subscribed, intending that as a "poke" / escalation (they might miss or
defer replying to the message).

Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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ben+python at benfinney

Apr 24, 2012, 5:15 PM

Post #5 of 11 (184 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

Ethan Furman <ethan [at] stoneleaf> writes:

> When responding to posts, should the poster to whom I am responding be
> listed as well as python-dev, or should my responses just go to
> python-dev?

IMO, the poster to whom you are responding should expect to read your
response in the same forum where their message appeared. So, no need to
send them another copy individually.

--
\ “There is something wonderful in seeing a wrong-headed majority |
`\ assailed by truth.” —John Kenneth Galbraith, 1989-07-28 |
_o__) |
Ben Finney

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stephen at xemacs

Apr 24, 2012, 8:44 PM

Post #6 of 11 (180 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:46 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan [at] stoneleaf> wrote:

> When responding to posts, should the poster to whom I am responding be
> listed as well as python-dev, or should my responses just go to python-dev?
>
> I see both ways occuring, and am not sure if one or the other is preferred.

I don't know of any webmail implementations that provide
reply-to-list, so a lot of us end up using reply-to-all. Cleaning up
the headers requires at least deleting the To (which is where the
author ends up), and perhaps moving the list from Cc to To (to make it
pretty, I don't think a nonempty To is actually required by the RFC).
Especially on a mobile device this is a PITA.

So in most cases I suppose that the duplicate going to the author is
just an issue of "energy conservation" on the part of the responder.

Note that people who are really annoyed by the duplicates can set
their Mailman accounts to no-dupes, and Mailman won't send the post to
that person. (This has its disadvantages in principle -- no List-*
headers and other list-specific info -- and in implementation -- at
best Mailman can change all your lists at one site, so you need to do
this on every site you subscribe to. But it's an option.) This won't
work for people who read on Gmane, of course, since they don't own the
subscription where they're reading the list.
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rosuav at gmail

Apr 24, 2012, 8:58 PM

Post #7 of 11 (180 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen [at] xemacs> wrote:
> I don't know of any webmail implementations that provide
> reply-to-list, so a lot of us end up using reply-to-all. �Cleaning up
> the headers requires at least deleting the To (which is where the
> author ends up), and perhaps moving the list from Cc to To (to make it
> pretty, I don't think a nonempty To is actually required by the RFC).
> Especially on a mobile device this is a PITA.

I go the other way: hit Reply, and then replace the author's address
with the list's. I'd much rather have a Reply List though.
Unfortunately no decent webmail seems to have it, and I'm still
looking for a decent non-web-mail client too.

ChrisA
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ncoghlan at gmail

Apr 24, 2012, 10:45 PM

Post #8 of 11 (173 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen [at] xemacs> wrote:
>> I don't know of any webmail implementations that provide
>> reply-to-list, so a lot of us end up using reply-to-all. �Cleaning up
>> the headers requires at least deleting the To (which is where the
>> author ends up), and perhaps moving the list from Cc to To (to make it
>> pretty, I don't think a nonempty To is actually required by the RFC).
>> Especially on a mobile device this is a PITA.
>
> I go the other way: hit Reply, and then replace the author's address
> with the list's. I'd much rather have a Reply List though.
> Unfortunately no decent webmail seems to have it, and I'm still
> looking for a decent non-web-mail client too.

I used to do that, but switched to using Reply-All instead after
sending too many unintentionally off-list replies.

So yeah, the basic problem is mail clients that don't offer a
"Reply-List" option, with the Gmail web client being a notable
offender.

Cheers,
Nick.

--
Nick Coghlan�� |�� ncoghlan [at] gmail�� |�� Brisbane, Australia
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barry at python

Apr 25, 2012, 7:32 AM

Post #9 of 11 (166 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

On Apr 25, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>Note that people who are really annoyed by the duplicates can set
>their Mailman accounts to no-dupes, and Mailman won't send the post to
>that person. (This has its disadvantages in principle -- no List-*
>headers and other list-specific info -- and in implementation -- at
>best Mailman can change all your lists at one site, so you need to do
>this on every site you subscribe to. But it's an option.)

Exactly. My MUA has a reply-to-list that really only works if there's a
List-Post header. If you reply to one of my list messages and include me in
the CC, I won't get the list copy so I won't get the List-Post header. Then
my response back will include you in the CC. I generally won't clean these
up, since it's *your* fault you're getting a dupe. :)

If you reply-to-list and don't CC me, then the copy I get will be the list
copy, which will have a List-Post header, and I'll also reply-to-list. No
dupes in sight, just like this one. SJT, FTW.

-Barry
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barry at python

Apr 25, 2012, 7:38 AM

Post #10 of 11 (167 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

On Apr 25, 2012, at 01:58 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

>I go the other way: hit Reply, and then replace the author's address
>with the list's. I'd much rather have a Reply List though.
>Unfortunately no decent webmail seems to have it, and I'm still
>looking for a decent non-web-mail client too.

It's a highly religious and platform-dependent thing. I'll put in a plug for
Claws Mail, which I use and generally find to be excellent, in that its warts
(which they all have) aren't bad enough to make me want to chuck my laptop out
the window. It does both IMAP and NNTP pretty well, and can call an external
editor for composition. It also rarely crashes these days. :)

Oh, and to keep things roughly on topic, it embeds Python so you can write
nice little scripts for a variety of actions. E.g. I have a little Python
script to automatically pick my python.org address for messages to Python
mailing lists.

That's all I'll say on the subject in this mailing list, but I'm happy to
answer other questions off-line.

-Barry
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ben+python at benfinney

Apr 25, 2012, 7:43 PM

Post #11 of 11 (164 views)
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Re: netiquette on py-dev [In reply to]

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen [at] xemacs> writes:

> I don't know of any webmail implementations that provide
> reply-to-list, so a lot of us end up using reply-to-all.

Right, that puts the responsibility in the right place: the webmail
software vendor needs to add a reply-to-list command, as has been
implemented in many clients for many years and supported explicitly by
standard fields in every message header.

> So in most cases I suppose that the duplicate going to the author is
> just an issue of "energy conservation" on the part of the responder.

I agree that's likely the usual reason. It's saving short-term effort by
passing that effort on to others though, and to that extent is
inconsiderate of other people.

Better is for webmail users to pressure the vendor of the webmail
software to add the “Reply to list” feature and make it clear this is
the recommended way to reply on a mailing list.

> Note that people who are really annoyed by the duplicates can set
> their Mailman accounts to no-dupes, and Mailman won't send the post to
> that person.

Those of us who don't have a Mailman account don't have that option, as
you noted. I'm not participating in this forum by email at all, and
don't expect *any* copies of its messages in my email.

The problem is with the missing feature of the webmail program, and the
users of that program need to agitate for getting it fixed.

Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan [at] gmail> writes:

> So yeah, the basic problem is mail clients that don't offer a
> "Reply-List" option, with the Gmail web client being a notable
> offender.

It doesn't even need to be extra effort for the user. The “Reply to
author” command can change to a “Reply to list” command when the mailing
list fields are present. That's one possible solution; but anything that
gets more people to “Reply to list” when appropriate is acceptable to me.

--
\ “Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you |
`\ free with my breakfast cereal.” —Zaphod Beeblebrox, _The |
_o__) Restaurant At The End Of The Universe_, Douglas Adams |
Ben Finney

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