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PyPI comments and ratings, really?

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ludvig at lericson

Nov 12, 2009, 1:44 AM

Post #1 of 146 (1389 views)
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*PyPI comments and ratings, really?*

Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which I
cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
just absurd.

It's *my* package, and so should be *my* choice if I want user input
or not.

And ratings? I thought it was the Python Package Index, not the Python
Anonymous Package Tribunal.

As I see it, there are only two ways to fix these misguided steps of
development: throw them out, or make them opt-in settings.

The comments I simply do not understand. Why not instead provide a
form for mailing the package author?
The ratings are just not what PyPI should be doing, is about, or what
I signed up for.

-L
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exarkun at twistedmatrix

Nov 12, 2009, 5:06 AM

Post #2 of 146 (1339 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On 09:44 am, ludvig [at] lericson wrote:
>Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which I
>cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
>just absurd.
>
>It's *my* package, and so should be *my* choice if I want user input
>or not.
>
>And ratings? I thought it was the Python Package Index, not the Python
>Anonymous Package Tribunal.
>
>As I see it, there are only two ways to fix these misguided steps of
>development: throw them out, or make them opt-in settings.
>
>The comments I simply do not understand. Why not instead provide a
>form for mailing the package author?
>The ratings are just not what PyPI should be doing, is about, or what
>I signed up for.

See the various catalog-sig threads on this topic.

Jean-Paul
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steve at pearwood

Nov 12, 2009, 5:38 AM

Post #3 of 146 (1337 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
> just absurd.

No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
about your software.

I don't suppose that this rant of yours has something to do with the
comment posted today?

http://pypi.python.org/pypi/spypam/1.0

--
Steven D'Aprano
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jnoller at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 6:06 AM

Post #4 of 146 (1336 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

barry at python

Nov 12, 2009, 6:25 AM

Post #5 of 146 (1336 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:

> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
> changes.

That's distressing. For better or worse PyPI is the central
repository of 3rd party packages. It should be easy, desirable, fun
and socially encouraged to get your packages there.

I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be
able to opt-out of it if you want. Or just write such awesome
software that the bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of
kudos.

-Barry

Attachments:

PGP.sig (0.19 KB)

amnorvend at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 6:29 AM

Post #6 of 146 (1336 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller <jnoller [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve [at] pearwood> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
>>> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
>>> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
>>> just absurd.
>>
>> No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
>> somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
>> about your software.
>>
>> I don't suppose that this rant of yours has something to do with the
>> comment posted today?
>
> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
> changes.

I'm not sure I see the utility of ratings, but I think comments can be
useful as long as they don't carry over from release to release. For
instance, suppose there's a bug in my package and someone leaves a
comment about it. I don't want that comment still hanging around 3
years after I've already fixed the bug.
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jnoller at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 6:32 AM

Post #7 of 146 (1336 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Barry Warsaw <barry [at] python> wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>
>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>> changes.
>
> That's distressing. �For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
> 3rd party packages. �It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
> encouraged to get your packages there.
>
> I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be able to
> opt-out of it if you want. �Or just write such awesome software that the
> bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of kudos.
>
> -Barry

I completely and totally agree with you. That's why it's a
self-imposed thing for me, I want to help, but don't have the time. In
the same breath, I don't want to support it as-is.

PyPI isn't a place to file bugs, complain something didn't work for
you if you didn't even have the common decency in some cases to email
them. Being unable, as an author, to remove, moderate, or even respond
to issues there bothers me quite a bit.

Heck, I would even be for requiring packages have a mailing list and /
or bug tracker to even upload, rather than comments. At least then the
authors or maintainers have a fighting chance.
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dalcinl at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 7:01 AM

Post #8 of 146 (1338 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Jesse Noller <jnoller [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Barry Warsaw <barry [at] python> wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>>> changes.
>>
>> That's distressing. �For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
>> 3rd party packages. �It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
>> encouraged to get your packages there.
>>
>
> PyPI isn't a place to file bugs, complain something didn't work for
> you if you didn't even have the common decency in some cases to email
> them. Being unable, as an author, to remove, moderate, or even respond
> to issues there bothers me quite a bit.
>

I also agree with you. I do not see the point to make PyPI yet another
social network.

--
Lisandro Dalc�n
---------------
Centro Internacional de M�todos Computacionales en Ingenier�a (CIMEC)
Instituto de Desarrollo Tecnol�gico para la Industria Qu�mica (INTEC)
Consejo Nacional de Investigaciones Cient�ficas y T�cnicas (CONICET)
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exarkun at twistedmatrix

Nov 12, 2009, 7:23 AM

Post #9 of 146 (1336 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On 03:01 pm, dalcinl [at] gmail wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Jesse Noller <jnoller [at] gmail>
>wrote:
>>On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Barry Warsaw <barry [at] python>
>>wrote:
>>>On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>>>>Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>>>>is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>>>>until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>>>>changes.
>>>
>>>That's distressing. �For better or worse PyPI is the central
>>>repository of
>>>3rd party packages. �It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
>>>encouraged to get your packages there.
>>
>>PyPI isn't a place to file bugs, complain something didn't work for
>>you if you didn't even have the common decency in some cases to email
>>them. Being unable, as an author, to remove, moderate, or even respond
>>to issues there bothers me quite a bit.
>
>I also agree with you. I do not see the point to make PyPI yet another
>social network.

+1

Jean-Paul

olemis at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 7:33 AM

Post #10 of 146 (1337 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve [at] pearwood> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
>> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
>> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
>> just absurd.
>
> No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
> somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
> about your software.
>

Both of you are right , but I agree with Mr. Ludvig Ericson opinion (>
90%). The package author probably has no �right to demand control over
what others say about her/his software� , but he has the right to
decide where such comments should be posted and also if he/she wants
to focus on (opinions | comments | ... ) or more useful feedback like
issues or support request .

For example, in my case, I prefer to have either custom ticket types
in the project's Trac environment or a plugin to receive this kind of
feedback *in the project's site* . IMHO PyPI is not the right place .
/me probably wrong

IMO -0.1 for votes and comments in PyPI and therefore

+1 for including settings to let coders decide (somehow ;o) whether to
allow this or not

--
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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olemis at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 7:50 AM

Post #11 of 146 (1337 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Jesse Noller <jnoller [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Barry Warsaw <barry [at] python> wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>>> changes.
>>
>> That's distressing. �For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
>> 3rd party packages. �It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
>> encouraged to get your packages there.
>>
>> I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be able to
>> opt-out of it if you want. �Or just write such awesome software that the
>> bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of kudos.
>>
>> -Barry
>
> I completely and totally agree with you. That's why it's a
> self-imposed thing for me, I want to help, but don't have the time. In
> the same breath, I don't want to support it as-is.
>
> PyPI isn't a place to file bugs, complain something didn't work for
> you if you didn't even have the common decency in some cases to email
> them. Being unable, as an author, to remove, moderate, or even respond
> to issues there bothers me quite a bit.
>

+1

> Heck, I would even be for requiring packages have a mailing list and /
> or bug tracker to even upload, rather than comments. At least then the
> authors or maintainers have a fighting chance.
>

Intention = suggestion + crazy idea => for a better PyPI

But there's probably a chance to display what people said in the
project's site . If PyPI would be able to retrieve that information
from the project's site (e.g. that'd be possible for Trac and other
PMS via RPC ) and also some of the aforementioned (Jesse's) issues
might be solved with added benefits (data being cached and discarded
from time to time, better performance, less DB space, ...) or not .

IMO, what's missing in my reasoning is whether there is a common std
API for e.g. issues . But there's a popular API for wikis (i.e.
WikiRPC) so probably there's something std (I repeat, that I don't
know :-/ ) out there . At least Trac's TicketRPC is very simple (i.e.
two simple methods) and extensible (e.g. custom ticket fields ;o)

PS: I don't really know the exact details of the impl of votes and
comments in PyPI.

--
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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guido at python

Nov 12, 2009, 8:02 AM

Post #12 of 146 (1337 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve [at] pearwood> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
>> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
>> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
>> just absurd.
>
> No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
> somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
> about your software.
>
> I don't suppose that this rant of yours has something to do with the
> comment posted today?
>
> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/spypam/1.0

If you were to ask me, the people arguing against ratings and user
comments are fighting a losing battle. If they had an iPhone or
Android phone (or some other device with an "app store" kind of place
to find downloads) they'd know the value (for prospective downloaders)
of ratings and comments. Now, I think PyPI can use some (perhaps a lot
of) improvement in the details of how it works, e.g. there should be a
way to flag inappropriate messages (and users who post many
inappropriate messages) and the software author should be able to talk
back, but the general idea is here and won't go away by wishing it
away.

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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solipsis at pitrou

Nov 12, 2009, 8:19 AM

Post #13 of 146 (1337 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

Guido van Rossum <guido <at> python.org> writes:
>
> If you were to ask me, the people arguing against ratings and user
> comments are fighting a losing battle. If they had an iPhone or
> Android phone (or some other device with an "app store" kind of place
> to find downloads) they'd know the value (for prospective downloaders)
> of ratings and comments. Now, I think PyPI can use some (perhaps a lot
> of) improvement in the details of how it works, e.g. there should be a
> way to flag inappropriate messages (and users who post many
> inappropriate messages) and the software author should be able to talk
> back, but the general idea is here and won't go away by wishing it
> away.

Perhaps the suggestions and appreciations about the PyPI ratings and comment
system can go to http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pypi/ :-)

(more seriously, the problem with a comment system is that once it takes off,
you need a whole array of functionalities to maintain a good S/N ratio. Just
allowing people to "comment" without any sort of moderation, filtering or
community building doesn't work)

Regards

Antoine.

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jnoller at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 8:31 AM

Post #14 of 146 (1336 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Guido van Rossum <guido [at] python> wrote:

> If you were to ask me, the people arguing against ratings and user
> comments are fighting a losing battle. If they had an iPhone or
> Android phone (or some other device with an "app store" kind of place
> to find downloads) they'd know the value (for prospective downloaders)
> of ratings and comments. Now, I think PyPI can use some (perhaps a lot
> of) improvement in the details of how it works, e.g. there should be a
> way to flag inappropriate messages (and users who post many
> inappropriate messages) and the software author should be able to talk
> back, but the general idea is here and won't go away by wishing it
> away.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

I don't want us to impersonate the mindless, sub-useful drivel found
in App store/YouTube/etc comments 99% of the time or the broken "5
star ratings" systems, etc. It's too easy to game.

I'm not arguing something like this *shouldn't* exist; but that the
current implementation is a far cry from something actually *good and
useful*. If we want forums, let's put in forums. If we want a real
review system, then do that.

But before we even did those; why not have mandatory links for entries
to bug trackers, mailing lists, source repositories, etc? I'm saying
saying this doesn't seem well thought out, and the current
implementation is broken by design. Of course, as I said earlier;
since I don't have time to patch it; I'll simply just not participate.

jesse
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amnorvend at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 8:59 AM

Post #15 of 146 (1337 views)
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*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis [at] pitrou> wrote:
> (more seriously, the problem with a comment system is that once it takes off,
> you need a whole array of functionalities to maintain a good S/N ratio. Just
> allowing people to "comment" without any sort of moderation, filtering or
> community building doesn't work)

Why not allow ratings on comments as well?
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dstanek at dstanek

Nov 12, 2009, 9:02 AM

Post #16 of 146 (1336 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Jesse Noller <jnoller [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve [at] pearwood>
> wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:32 pm Ludvig Ericson wrote:
> >> Why are there comments on PyPI? Moreso, why are there comments which
> >> I cannot control as a package author on my very own packages? That's
> >> just absurd.
> >
> > No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
> > somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
> > about your software.
> >
> > I don't suppose that this rant of yours has something to do with the
> > comment posted today?
>
> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
> changes.
>

Where is the code for PyPi? I took a quick look and didn't turn up anything.

--
David
blog: http://www.traceback.org
twitter: http://twitter.com/dstanek

jacob at jacobian

Nov 12, 2009, 9:06 AM

Post #17 of 146 (1336 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Stanek <dstanek [at] dstanek> wrote:
> Where is the code for PyPi? I took a quick look and didn't turn up anything.

https://svn.python.org/packages/trunk/pypi/

I've already started on a patch to make comments an option that
package maintainers could turn on or off, but I don't want to waste
any more time fighting this code unless I have some assurance it'll be
checked in.

Jacob
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masklinn at masklinn

Nov 12, 2009, 9:08 AM

Post #18 of 146 (1337 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On 12 Nov 2009, at 17:31 , Jesse Noller wrote:
>
> But before we even did those; why not have mandatory links for entries
> to bug trackers, mailing lists, source repositories, etc? I'm saying
> saying this doesn't seem well thought out, and the current
> implementation is broken by design. Of course, as I said earlier;
> since I don't have time to patch it; I'll simply just not participate.
I think having links to those is a very good idea and more important
than a comment/notation system. They shouldn't be mandatory though, not
every library has a mailing list, or even a (public anyway) bug tracker.

Giving users and easy way to contact the author would be a must as well
("package index owner" and "package index maintainer" should link to
the users's profiles, and users should be able to setup contact
informations e.g. a mail address or a website). See how search.cpan
does it, the information is worth a lot to users. Currently, finding
how to send feedback to a package owner usually requires wading through
the description text itself, which in some cases (e.g. distribute)
amounts to pages of document.

On 12 Nov 2009, at 17:31 , Jesse Noller wrote:
> I don't want us to impersonate the mindless, sub-useful drivel found
> in App store/YouTube/etc comments 99% of the time or the broken "5
> star ratings" systems, etc. It's too easy to game.
I think I read a paper on that subject a short time ago (but can't
seem to find it right now), basically saying 5-star systems weren't
very useful, a simple +1/0/-1 was just as good (if not better) and
0/+1 worked as well.
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dstanek at dstanek

Nov 12, 2009, 9:14 AM

Post #19 of 146 (1337 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss <jacob [at] jacobian>wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Stanek <dstanek [at] dstanek>
> wrote:
> > Where is the code for PyPi? I took a quick look and didn't turn up
> anything.
>
> https://svn.python.org/packages/trunk/pypi/
>
> I've already started on a patch to make comments an option that
> package maintainers could turn on or off, but I don't want to waste
> any more time fighting this code unless I have some assurance it'll be
> checked in.
>

Thanks. If I have some spare time I'm going take a look. Should I post
patches to the regular Python bug tracker?

--
David
blog: http://www.traceback.org
twitter: http://twitter.com/dstanek

arcriley at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 9:27 AM

Post #20 of 146 (1335 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

Nobody is claiming right to censor what people say about their software.

This is the Internet. There are blogs. Google and other search engines
find blogs quickly, and people who agree with the viewpoints expressed link
to them thus making the blog postings more visible. There are countless
other social networks and outlets for people to flame and slander (or praise
and promote, in a much less common case) software.

It would be more useful to provide a PyPI mechanism to publish a link to
file bugs on the project's own website and leave project ratings the work of
other sites such as Ohloh.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve [at] pearwood>wrote:

>
> No, what's absurd is thinking that the act of publishing software
> somehow gives you the right to demand control over what others say
> about your software.
>
>

python at rcn

Nov 12, 2009, 9:32 AM

Post #21 of 146 (1337 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

[Jacob Kaplan-Moss]
> I've already started on a patch to make comments an option that
> package maintainers could turn on or off, but I don't want to waste
> any more time fighting this code unless I have some assurance it'll be
> checked in.

I support your efforts.

Raymond
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tjreedy at udel

Nov 12, 2009, 10:30 AM

Post #22 of 146 (1336 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>
>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>> changes.
>
> That's distressing. For better or worse PyPI is the central repository
> of 3rd party packages. It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
> encouraged to get your packages there.

I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different
from a book review and rating service. And that mixing the two is
'socially discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is

> I personally think a ratings system can be useful, but you should be
> able to opt-out of it if you want. Or just write such awesome software
> that the bogus bad reviews will be buried by an avalanche of kudos.

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guido at python

Nov 12, 2009, 10:54 AM

Post #23 of 146 (1336 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy [at] udel> wrote:
> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>>> changes.
>>
>> That's distressing. �For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
>> 3rd party packages. �It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
>> encouraged to get your packages there.
>
> I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different from
> a book review and rating service. �And that mixing the two is 'socially
> discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is

I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like
adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g.
Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion,
ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity).

I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't
improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at
least give authors the option to disable comments. Of course, as a
user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings.

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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olemis at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 11:21 AM

Post #24 of 146 (1337 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

Intention = precision => for a better PyPI

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido [at] python> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy [at] udel> wrote:
>> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jesse Noller wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frankly, I agree with him. As implemented, I *and others* think this
>>>> is broken. I've taken the stance of not publishing things to PyPi
>>>> until A> I find the time to contribute to make it better or B> It
>>>> changes.
>>>
>>> That's distressing. �For better or worse PyPI is the central repository of
>>> 3rd party packages. �It should be easy, desirable, fun and socially
>>> encouraged to get your packages there.
>>
>> I think his point is that a new book announcement servive is different from
>> a book review and rating service. �And that mixing the two is 'socially
>> discouraging'. I do not know what the answer is
>
> I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like
> adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g.
> Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion,
> ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity).
>

... but (most) book writers don't use an issue tracker to manage and
get *useful* feedback from their readers (I know there are exceptions
to the rule ;o) and fix the book chapters or anything else . Besides
there are some differences between software and books and the way both
of them are created, used and enhanced . What I don't like (today)
about comments + votes is that I have to do the same thing in two
different places (especially because one of the sources is *very*
noisy). If there's a way to integrate both and �reduce� the noise ,
that would be nice .

;o)

> I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't
> improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at
> least give authors the option to disable comments.

+1

> Of course, as a
> user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings.
>

Not really sure. For example, if a user access the page for setuptools
(just an example ;o) soon she/he will realize that other people use it
very often and also has a high kwalitee score, therefore it is quite
unlikely that such package be �irrelevant� or �untrusted� (this is
IMHO) .

--
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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jnoller at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 11:25 AM

Post #25 of 146 (1335 views)
Permalink

*Re: PyPI comments and ratings, really?* [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido [at] python> wrote:

>
> I would say that publishers disagree -- they seem to really like
> adding "social" stuff to their book announcement service. See e.g.
> Amazon (which combines all functions: announcement/promotion,
> ordering/download, review/comments/rate/popularity).
>
> I agree that creating a good social app is not easy, and if we can't
> improve the social app embedded in PyPI quickly enough, we should at
> least give authors the option to disable comments. Of course, as a
> user, I might not trust a module that has no reviews or ratings.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

I'd not trust a package without a bug tracker, mailing list or link to
the source a lot sooner than something without comments and ratings.
Especially with ratings like milk and wolf shirts get:

http://www.amazon.com/Tuscan-Whole-Milk-Gallon-128/dp/B00032G1S0/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=grocery&qid=1258053581&sr=1-13

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Mens-Short-Sleeve-Large/dp/B001VMZFPQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qid=1258053663&sr=8-1

What about astroturfing? What's to stop me from writing a script to
create a pile of accounts and then bumping packages I like with
glowing ratings and reviews? Who is going to be the moderator, and how
to decide between spam, incorrect comment, etc?
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PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?

PyPI comments and ratings, really?