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2.7/3.2 release schedule

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benjamin at python

Nov 2, 2009, 12:00 PM

Post #1 of 16 (1331 views)
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2.7/3.2 release schedule

I've updated PEP 373 with my proposed release schedule:

- 2.7/3.2 alpha 1 2009-12-05
- 2.7/3.2 alpha 2 2010-01-09
- 2.7/3.2 alpha 3 2010-02-06
- 2.7/3.2 alpha 4 2010-03-06
- 2.7/3.2 beta 1 2010-04-03
- 2.7/3.2 beta 2 2010-05-01
- 2.7/3.2 rc1 2010-05-29
- 2.7/3.2 rc2 2010-06-12
- 2.7/3.2 final 2010-06-26

--
Regards,
Benjamin
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arfrever.fta at gmail

Nov 10, 2009, 2:41 AM

Post #2 of 16 (1242 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

2009-11-02 21:00 Benjamin Peterson <benjamin [at] python> napisał(a):
> I've updated PEP 373 with my proposed release schedule:
>
> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 1 2009-12-05
> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 2 2010-01-09
> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 3 2010-02-06
> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 4 2010-03-06
> - 2.7/3.2 beta 1 2010-04-03
> - 2.7/3.2 beta 2 2010-05-01
> - 2.7/3.2 rc1 2010-05-29
> - 2.7/3.2 rc2 2010-06-12
> - 2.7/3.2 final 2010-06-26

PEP 3003 states that Python 3.2 will be released 18-24 months after
Python 3.1. Python 3.1 was released on June 2009-06-27 [1], so
theoretically Python 3.2 should be released not before 2010-12-19 [2].

[1] http://python.org/download/releases/3.1/
[2] datetime.date(2009, 6, 27) + datetime.timedelta(18 * 30)

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ncoghlan at gmail

Nov 10, 2009, 5:13 AM

Post #3 of 16 (1244 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> 2009-11-02 21:00 Benjamin Peterson <benjamin [at] python> napisał(a):
>> I've updated PEP 373 with my proposed release schedule:
>>
>> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 1 2009-12-05
>> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 2 2010-01-09
>> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 3 2010-02-06
>> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 4 2010-03-06
>> - 2.7/3.2 beta 1 2010-04-03
>> - 2.7/3.2 beta 2 2010-05-01
>> - 2.7/3.2 rc1 2010-05-29
>> - 2.7/3.2 rc2 2010-06-12
>> - 2.7/3.2 final 2010-06-26
>
> PEP 3003 states that Python 3.2 will be released 18-24 months after
> Python 3.1. Python 3.1 was released on June 2009-06-27 [1], so
> theoretically Python 3.2 should be released not before 2010-12-19 [2].

The PEP 3003 text isn't allowing for the fact that 3.1 is "3.0 as it
should have been", so the starting point for the 18-24 month rule of
thumb is actually back when 3.0 was released in Dec 2008. This was
discussed a fair bit back when the decision was made to do the short
release cycle between 3.0 and 3.1 in order to address some of the more
glaring shortcomings of the 3.0 release.

Cheers,
Nick.

--
Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan [at] gmail | Brisbane, Australia
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guido at python

Nov 10, 2009, 7:55 AM

Post #4 of 16 (1248 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan [at] gmail> wrote:
> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
>> 2009-11-02 21:00 Benjamin Peterson <benjamin [at] python> napisał(a):
>>> I've updated PEP 373 with my proposed release schedule:
>>>
>>> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 1 2009-12-05
>>> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 2 2010-01-09
>>> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 3 2010-02-06
>>> - 2.7/3.2 alpha 4 2010-03-06
>>> - 2.7/3.2 beta 1 2010-04-03
>>> - 2.7/3.2 beta 2 2010-05-01
>>> - 2.7/3.2 rc1 2010-05-29
>>> - 2.7/3.2 rc2 2010-06-12
>>> - 2.7/3.2 final 2010-06-26
>>
>> PEP 3003 states that Python 3.2 will be released 18-24 months after
>> Python 3.1. Python 3.1 was released on June 2009-06-27 [1], so
>> theoretically Python 3.2 should be released not before 2010-12-19 [2].
>
> The PEP 3003 text isn't allowing for the fact that 3.1 is "3.0 as it
> should have been", so the starting point for the 18-24 month rule of
> thumb is actually back when 3.0 was released in Dec 2008. This was
> discussed a fair bit back when the decision was made to do the short
> release cycle between 3.0 and 3.1 in order to address some of the more
> glaring shortcomings of the 3.0 release.

Was this discussed somewhere? When I agreed to an early 3.1 release
(or did I propose it?) I'm quite sure that I expected 3.2 to come the
usual time (i.e., 18-24 months) after 3.1. I think I said something to
the extent of "we'll treat 3.1 the same way we treat any release"
which IMO implies a lifetime of 18-24 months.

--
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solipsis at pitrou

Nov 10, 2009, 8:09 AM

Post #5 of 16 (1245 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

Guido van Rossum <guido <at> python.org> writes:
>
> Was this discussed somewhere?

I don't remember so, except for a short subthread on python-ideas where you
indeed mentioned (to my disappointment :-)) that you were against a one-year
release period.

Regards

Antoine.

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guido at python

Nov 10, 2009, 9:26 AM

Post #6 of 16 (1249 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis [at] pitrou> wrote:
> Guido van Rossum <guido <at> python.org> writes:
>>
>> Was this discussed somewhere?
>
> I don't remember so, except for a short subthread on python-ideas where you
> indeed mentioned (to my disappointment :-)) that you were against a one-year
> release period.

Trust me on this too, please. We used to have releases once a year and
we got really big serious feedback from our biggest users that the
release cycle was going too fast. We discussed it amply and agreed on
a minimum time of 18 months between releases. This was quite a while
ago (I recall it being somewhere between 2000 and 2004) but I don't
see that the situation has really changed -- if anything, we need to
slow down more. We should really have a PEP for this, like we do for
bugfix releases (PEP 6), but at the time we weren't so anal about PEPs
for process.

I realize this can be frustrating for developers who want to see their
code released. I had the same feeling at the time. But when it was
explained to me what a version upgrade looks like for a typical large
company who have 100,000 or more lines of Python, often with
insufficient tests, written by people who no longer work for the
company or expensive consultants, I realized that releasing once a
year was a break-neck pace for such users. There was wide discussion
and community agreement on the 18 months minimum, as a compromise
between the needs of large users (who would have been happier with two
years) and the desires of developers (who, like you, preferred shorter
release cycles).

I really don't think we should change this "contract with our users"
now. If necessary, we'll have to write a PEP to describe and explain
it.

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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python at rcn

Nov 10, 2009, 10:26 AM

Post #7 of 16 (1246 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

[Guido van Rossum]
>. We used to have releases once a year and
> we got really big serious feedback from our biggest users that the
> release cycle was going too fast. We discussed it amply and agreed on
> a minimum time of 18 months between releases.

If the language moratorium goes into effect, would shorter release cycles
still have a negative impact? Do people possibly want slower changes
to the language and faster updates to the library?

I don't know the answer. Just asking how this matches up with the
feedback you have gotten previously.

Raymond
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tseaver at palladion

Nov 10, 2009, 10:42 AM

Post #8 of 16 (1246 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

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Hash: SHA1

Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> [Guido van Rossum]
>> . We used to have releases once a year and
>> we got really big serious feedback from our biggest users that the
>> release cycle was going too fast. We discussed it amply and agreed on
>> a minimum time of 18 months between releases.
>
> If the language moratorium goes into effect, would shorter release cycles
> still have a negative impact? Do people possibly want slower changes
> to the language and faster updates to the library?
>
> I don't know the answer. Just asking how this matches up with the
> feedback you have gotten previously.

Depends on the kind of changes you are talking about: backward-
incompatible ones (like the hashlib / medusa ones in 2.6, for instance)
are likely going to be unpopular with the "Python with a tie" crowd (I
think that was the name of the IPC BoF from which the original feedback
coalesced).

Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver [at] palladion
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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martin at v

Nov 10, 2009, 1:05 PM

Post #9 of 16 (1243 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

>> PEP 3003 states that Python 3.2 will be released 18-24 months after
>> Python 3.1. Python 3.1 was released on June 2009-06-27 [1], so
>> theoretically Python 3.2 should be released not before 2010-12-19 [2].
>
> The PEP 3003 text isn't allowing for the fact that 3.1 is "3.0 as it
> should have been", so the starting point for the 18-24 month rule of
> thumb is actually back when 3.0 was released in Dec 2008. This was
> discussed a fair bit back when the decision was made to do the short
> release cycle between 3.0 and 3.1 in order to address some of the more
> glaring shortcomings of the 3.0 release.

I agree with everybody else who said that

a) there was *no* consensus that the release cycle for 3.2 should be
shortened because of 3.1 being released early. I also remember the
opposite.

b) whatever past discussion may have been, it would be a mistake to
release 3.2 earlier than 18 months after 3.1.

Of course, 2.7 *could* be released by the proposed schedule; it just
would have to be decoupled from 3.2 (just as 2.6 eventually got
decoupled from 3.0).

I personally think that decoupling the releases would be best, i.e.
not start thinking about 3.2 for another 6 months.

Regards,
Martin
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ncoghlan at gmail

Nov 10, 2009, 1:16 PM

Post #10 of 16 (1245 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>>> PEP 3003 states that Python 3.2 will be released 18-24 months after
>>> Python 3.1. Python 3.1 was released on June 2009-06-27 [1], so
>>> theoretically Python 3.2 should be released not before 2010-12-19 [2].
>> The PEP 3003 text isn't allowing for the fact that 3.1 is "3.0 as it
>> should have been", so the starting point for the 18-24 month rule of
>> thumb is actually back when 3.0 was released in Dec 2008. This was
>> discussed a fair bit back when the decision was made to do the short
>> release cycle between 3.0 and 3.1 in order to address some of the more
>> glaring shortcomings of the 3.0 release.
>
> I agree with everybody else who said that
>
> a) there was *no* consensus that the release cycle for 3.2 should be
> shortened because of 3.1 being released early. I also remember the
> opposite.
>
> b) whatever past discussion may have been, it would be a mistake to
> release 3.2 earlier than 18 months after 3.1.

Fair enough - I didn't remember that discussion all that well, but
assumed it had reached that consensus due to the lack of comment when
Benjamin originally posted his proposed schedule. Your response and
Guido's clearly indicate otherwise :)

If that wasn't the consensus, then all the dates should slide back 6
months (i.e. no alphas until June 2010). (I actually prefer that since
it gives me a chance to find a cleaner approach to the runpy.run_path
problem, but didn't want to rehash a discussion I thought we had already
had)

> Of course, 2.7 *could* be released by the proposed schedule; it just
> would have to be decoupled from 3.2 (just as 2.6 eventually got
> decoupled from 3.0).

That leads to a 2.x version with features that aren't yet available in a
3.x version though. I thought we weren't planning on doing that anymore.

> I personally think that decoupling the releases would be best, i.e.
> not start thinking about 3.2 for another 6 months.

Or just have the timing be 18 months for 3.2 and 24 months for 2.7 (i.e.
push the first alpha of both back to June next year).

Cheers,
Nick.

--
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benjamin at python

Nov 10, 2009, 2:06 PM

Post #11 of 16 (1246 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

2009/11/10 "Martin v. Löwis" <martin [at] v>:
> I personally think that decoupling the releases would be best, i.e.
> not start thinking about 3.2 for another 6 months.

The problem with that is that there is a period of time where 2.x has
features which 3.x doesn't. My preference is to move back the whole
schedule 6 months.

--
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Benjamin
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martin at v

Nov 10, 2009, 2:09 PM

Post #12 of 16 (1247 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> 2009/11/10 "Martin v. Löwis" <martin [at] v>:
>> I personally think that decoupling the releases would be best, i.e.
>> not start thinking about 3.2 for another 6 months.
>
> The problem with that is that there is a period of time where 2.x has
> features which 3.x doesn't. My preference is to move back the whole
> schedule 6 months.

Ok, fine with me as well. FWIW, I don't see that (2.7 released before
3.2) as a problem (but I understand that others might, for what I would
consider formal reasons).

Regards,
Martin
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python at rcn

Nov 10, 2009, 2:30 PM

Post #13 of 16 (1244 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

[MvL]
>> I personally think that decoupling the releases would be best, i.e.
>> not start thinking about 3.2 for another 6 months.

[Benjamin]
> The problem with that is that there is a period of time where 2.x has
> features which 3.x doesn't. My preference is to move back the whole
> schedule 6 months.

My preference is to decouple and let 2.7 go out 18 months after 2.6.
In general, 2.x users should not have to pay a price for whatever
we do with 3.x.

Raymond
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guido at python

Nov 10, 2009, 6:46 PM

Post #14 of 16 (1231 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Raymond Hettinger <python [at] rcn> wrote:
>
> [Guido van Rossum]
>>
>> . We used to have releases once a year and
>> we got really big serious feedback from our biggest users that the
>> release cycle was going too fast. We discussed it amply and agreed on
>> a minimum time of 18 months between releases.
>
> If the language moratorium goes into effect,

"If"? It's already Approved. :-)

> would shorter release cycles
> still have a negative impact? �Do people possibly want slower changes
> to the language and faster updates to the library?
>
> I don't know the answer. �Just asking how this matches up with the
> feedback you have gotten previously.

I expect it wouldn't make a difference since backwards compatibility
testing involves a lot more than language syntax.

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ncoghlan at gmail

Nov 11, 2009, 1:18 PM

Post #15 of 16 (1198 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

Raymond Hettinger wrote:
>
> [MvL]
>>> I personally think that decoupling the releases would be best, i.e.
>>> not start thinking about 3.2 for another 6 months.
>
> [Benjamin]
>> The problem with that is that there is a period of time where 2.x has
>> features which 3.x doesn't. My preference is to move back the whole
>> schedule 6 months.
>
> My preference is to decouple and let 2.7 go out 18 months after 2.6.
> In general, 2.x users should not have to pay a price for whatever
> we do with 3.x.

And I guess anyone doing forward ports is likely going to be maintaining
2.6 compatibility anyway, so waiting until 3.2 comes out before using
new 2.7 features wouldn't be a major burden.

I think I've decided I don't mind either way, so I'm fine with whichever
approach is easier for Benjamin and the platform installer builders to
manage.

Cheers,
Nick.

--
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guido at python

Nov 11, 2009, 1:23 PM

Post #16 of 16 (1198 views)
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Re: 2.7/3.2 release schedule [In reply to]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan [at] gmail> wrote:
> I think I've decided I don't mind either way, so I'm fine with whichever
> approach is easier for Benjamin and the platform installer builders to
> manage.

+1

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