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Re: Cython as a Python implementation

 

 

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theller at ctypes

Nov 5, 2009, 4:53 AM

Post #1 of 8 (855 views)
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Re: Cython as a Python implementation

Dirkjan Ochtman schrieb:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 13:13, Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml [at] behnel> wrote:
>> Would you consider Cython a Python implementation if we implemented this?
>> (which I guess we will do anyway at some point, simply because the
>> extensions are actually invalid code in the given context)
>
> Why do you want to be recognized as a Python implementation, anyway? I
> don't really understand why this seems so important to you.

Advertising, I assume. That's what Stefan often does (at least it feels
this way, for me).


--
Thanks,
Thomas

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solipsis at pitrou

Nov 5, 2009, 5:02 AM

Post #2 of 8 (804 views)
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Re: Cython as a Python implementation [In reply to]

Thomas Heller <theller <at> ctypes.org> writes:
>
> > Why do you want to be recognized as a Python implementation, anyway? I
> > don't really understand why this seems so important to you.
>
> Advertising, I assume. That's what Stefan often does (at least it feels
> this way, for me).

Well, it's true that their work often goes unnoticed in favour of more
pie-in-the-sky things such as PyPy and unladen-swallow.


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abpillai at gmail

Nov 5, 2009, 6:05 AM

Post #3 of 8 (803 views)
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Re: Cython as a Python implementation [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis [at] pitrou> wrote:

> Thomas Heller <theller <at> ctypes.org> writes:
> >
> > > Why do you want to be recognized as a Python implementation, anyway? I
> > > don't really understand why this seems so important to you.
> >
> > Advertising, I assume. That's what Stefan often does (at least it feels
> > this way, for me).
>
> Well, it's true that their work often goes unnoticed in favour of more
> pie-in-the-sky things such as PyPy and unladen-swallow.
>

Perhaps something to do with naming. "PyPy" and "unladen-swallow"
are obviously more eye-catching than "Cython".

Just my $0.02.

>
>
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Regards,

--
--Anand


metawilm at gmail

Nov 5, 2009, 7:21 AM

Post #4 of 8 (800 views)
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Re: Cython as a Python implementation [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Anand Balachandran Pillai
<abpillai [at] gmail> wrote:
>  Perhaps something to do with naming. "PyPy" and "unladen-swallow"
>  are obviously more eye-catching than "Cython".

Heh, CLPython is not very catchy either. Maybe that's why it's still
under the radar here.

- Willem
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stefan_ml at behnel

Nov 5, 2009, 7:45 AM

Post #5 of 8 (802 views)
Permalink
Re: Cython as a Python implementation [In reply to]

Thomas Heller, 05.11.2009 13:53:
> Advertising, I assume. That's what Stefan often does (at least it feels
> this way, for me).

Well, there's nothing inherently wrong with telling people about the right
tool for the job, especially when it's free. And don't forget that postings
are self-selecting by their topic, so you may simply not have come across
the non-advertising posts of mine, and I may have skipped worthy
non-advertising-affine topics that flew below my minimum level of conscious
reading.

Stefan

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guido at python

Nov 5, 2009, 7:57 AM

Post #6 of 8 (802 views)
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Re: Cython as a Python implementation [In reply to]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Thomas Heller <theller [at] ctypes> wrote:
> Dirkjan Ochtman schrieb:
>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 13:13, Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml [at] behnel> wrote:
>>> Would you consider Cython a Python implementation if we implemented this?
>>> (which I guess we will do anyway at some point, simply because the
>>> extensions are actually invalid code in the given context)
>>
>> Why do you want to be recognized as a Python implementation, anyway? I
>> don't really understand why this seems so important to you.
>
> Advertising, I assume.  That's what Stefan often does (at least it feels
> this way, for me).

I'm skeptical about Cython as a Python implementation. AFAIK it
requires CPython to work (for the runtime functionality) and while
Cython's syntax is very Python-like, it is probably best characterized
as an extended subset (:-). I guess when it runs the entire standard
test suite without errors it could claim to be a Python
implementation; until then, I would rather consider it a useful tool
to go with CPython. (The name is actually a bit confusing, but I don't
have a desire to change it.)

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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stefan_ml at behnel

Nov 5, 2009, 8:08 AM

Post #7 of 8 (801 views)
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Re: Cython as a Python implementation [In reply to]

Antoine Pitrou, 05.11.2009 14:02:
> Thomas Heller writes:
>>> Why do you want to be recognized as a Python implementation, anyway? I
>>> don't really understand why this seems so important to you.
>>
>> Advertising, I assume. That's what Stefan often does (at least it feels
>> this way, for me).
>
> Well, it's true that their work often goes unnoticed in favour of more
> pie-in-the-sky things such as PyPy and unladen-swallow.

That's likely got to do with it. It's not the first time I read about the
"four" Python implementations. It may be related to the lack of Cython
developers at the language summits, but, well, it's not like those were
cheap to join either, if you count travel time/costs etc.

I'm well aware, and I openly admit that Cython is laging behind in terms of
Python language features when compared with other Python implementations. A
reason for this is that the goal of the Cython project to design a
/superset/ of the Python language is simply more ambitious (and certainly
more time consuming) than just writing "yet another Python implementation".
We put a lot of thought work into language design between Python and C, and
also into code performance optimisations, where others can just go straight
for CPython compatibility. But this doesn't mean we are not writing a
Python implementation. It just means that we do more than that, and that
this 'more' takes time.

It has often been argued that it's easy to implement Python faster if you
actually don't implement Python, but that doesn't apply to the current
Cython anymore. What it lacks in terms of features is nothing that would
impact the performance of existing features in any way.

Like most of the other Python implementations, Cython is ready to use now.
Unlike most others, it has all batteries included. And unlike some others,
it's fast and even scales extremely well with various performance
requirements. Personally, I consider Cython one of the killer arguments
against performance prejudices about the CPython platform, if not about the
Python language itself.

Stefan

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guido at python

Nov 5, 2009, 11:36 AM

Post #8 of 8 (789 views)
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Re: Cython as a Python implementation [In reply to]

Stefan,

I think your attempts to see Cython accepted as one of the major
Python implementations is misguided. It is not self-contained, it is
an add-on tool for CPython (like its ancestor PyRex).

I think Cython is incredibly useful (and I spoke to many very happy
users yesterday at UCB) but trying to present it as a separate Python
implementation is not useful.

Please stop the discussion about this topic, they are distracting.

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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