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PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium

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guido at python

Nov 3, 2009, 9:35 AM

Post #1 of 94 (658 views)
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PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium

I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium", into
SVN. As authors I've listed Jesse, Brett and myself.

On python-ideas the moratorium idea got fairly positive responses
(more positive than I'd expected, in fact) but I'm bracing myself for
fierce discussion here on python-dev. It's important to me that if if
this is accepted it is a "rough consensus" decision (working code we
already have plenty of :-), not something enforced by a vocal minority
or an influential individual such as myself. If there's too much
opposition I'll withdraw the PEP so as not to waste everybody's time
with a fruitless discussion.

The PEP tries to spell out some gray areas but I'm sure there will be
others; that's life. Do note that the PEP proposes to be *retroactive*
back to the 3.1 release, i.e. the "frozen" version of the language is
the state in which it was released as 3.1.

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

Attachments:

pep-3003.txt (5.14 KB)

solipsis at pitrou

Nov 3, 2009, 9:47 AM

Post #2 of 94 (642 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Guido van Rossum <guido <at> python.org> writes:
>
> The PEP tries to spell out some gray areas but I'm sure there will be
> others; that's life. Do note that the PEP proposes to be *retroactive*
> back to the 3.1 release, i.e. the "frozen" version of the language is
> the state in which it was released as 3.1.

I've done a quick check through the NEWS file and it seems no post-3.1 change
would be affected by this PEP.

I'm for the PEP myself.

Antoine.

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martin at v

Nov 3, 2009, 10:20 AM

Post #3 of 94 (636 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

> * General language semantics
> The language operates as-is with only specific exemptions (see
> below).

Would PEP 382 (namespace packages) fall under the moratorium?

Regards,
Martin
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guido at python

Nov 3, 2009, 10:44 AM

Post #4 of 94 (636 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:20 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" <martin [at] v> wrote:
>> * General language semantics
>> The language operates as-is with only specific exemptions (see
>> below).
>
> Would PEP 382 (namespace packages) fall under the moratorium?

Import semantics are a bit of a gray area. However I think the
moratorium shouldn't be interpreted to prohibit this. I think there
was a question on python-ideas about import semantics, and my response
was something like "import semantics vary between Python
implementations anyway." I'll add this to the PEP.

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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brett at python

Nov 3, 2009, 11:21 AM

Post #5 of 94 (631 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 09:35, Guido van Rossum <guido [at] python> wrote:
> I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium", into
> SVN. As authors I've listed Jesse, Brett and myself.
>
> On python-ideas the moratorium idea got fairly positive responses
> (more positive than I'd expected, in fact) but I'm bracing myself for
> fierce discussion here on python-dev. It's important to me that if if
> this is accepted it is a "rough consensus" decision (working code we
> already have plenty of :-), not something enforced by a vocal minority
> or an influential individual such as myself. If there's too much
> opposition I'll withdraw the PEP so as not to waste everybody's time
> with a fruitless discussion.
>

Are you going to gauge it roughly from python-dev feedback, or should
we take a more formal vote on python-committers once the PEP has
settled?

> The PEP tries to spell out some gray areas but I'm sure there will be
> others; that's life. Do note that the PEP proposes to be *retroactive*
> back to the 3.1 release, i.e. the "frozen" version of the language is
> the state in which it was released as 3.1.

I'm obviously +1 for this.

I think one thing to decide is how long the moratorium is in effect.
As of right now the PEP's abstract says for "at least two years",
which taking into account the release schedule Benjamin is proposing
and assuming acceptance at the end of the year puts us at roughly the
release of Python 3.3. Should we just say this will be in affect until
development is open for Python 3.4?

-Brett
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mal at egenix

Nov 3, 2009, 11:23 AM

Post #6 of 94 (630 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Guido van Rossum wrote:
> I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium", into
> SVN. As authors I've listed Jesse, Brett and myself.
>
> On python-ideas the moratorium idea got fairly positive responses
> (more positive than I'd expected, in fact) but I'm bracing myself for
> fierce discussion here on python-dev. It's important to me that if if
> this is accepted it is a "rough consensus" decision (working code we
> already have plenty of :-), not something enforced by a vocal minority
> or an influential individual such as myself. If there's too much
> opposition I'll withdraw the PEP so as not to waste everybody's time
> with a fruitless discussion.
>
> The PEP tries to spell out some gray areas but I'm sure there will be
> others; that's life. Do note that the PEP proposes to be *retroactive*
> back to the 3.1 release, i.e. the "frozen" version of the language is
> the state in which it was released as 3.1.

+1.

> This suspension of features is designed to allow non-CPython implementations
> to "catch up" to the core implementation of the language, help ease adoption
> of Python 3.x, and provide a more stable base for the community.

I'd also add "to allow users to catch up"... ;-)

One question:

There are currently number of patch waiting on the tracker for
additional Unicode feature support and it's also likely that we'll
want to upgrade to a more recent Unicode version within the
next few years.

How would such indirect changes be seen under the moratorium ?

--
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Nov 03 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/
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________________________________________________________________________

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skip at pobox

Nov 3, 2009, 11:41 AM

Post #7 of 94 (636 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Guido> I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium",
Guido> into SVN.

LGTM.

Skip
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barry at python

Nov 3, 2009, 11:56 AM

Post #8 of 94 (630 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On Nov 3, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium", into
> SVN. As authors I've listed Jesse, Brett and myself.
>
> On python-ideas the moratorium idea got fairly positive responses
> (more positive than I'd expected, in fact) but I'm bracing myself for
> fierce discussion here on python-dev. It's important to me that if if
> this is accepted it is a "rough consensus" decision (working code we
> already have plenty of :-), not something enforced by a vocal minority
> or an influential individual such as myself. If there's too much
> opposition I'll withdraw the PEP so as not to waste everybody's time
> with a fruitless discussion.
>
> The PEP tries to spell out some gray areas but I'm sure there will be
> others; that's life. Do note that the PEP proposes to be *retroactive*
> back to the 3.1 release, i.e. the "frozen" version of the language is
> the state in which it was released as 3.1.

I think this is a great idea. I'd love to see the energy normally put
into evolving the language into making the stdlib really kick ass.

-Barry

Attachments:

PGP.sig (0.81 KB)

guido at python

Nov 3, 2009, 12:01 PM

Post #9 of 94 (630 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Brett Cannon <brett [at] python> wrote:
> Are you going to gauge it roughly from python-dev feedback, or should
> we take a more formal vote on python-committers once the PEP has
> settled?

I'll not take a formal vote unless the discussion suggests there's a
lot of pushback. So far I've seen very little.

>> The PEP tries to spell out some gray areas but I'm sure there will be
>> others; that's life. Do note that the PEP proposes to be *retroactive*
>> back to the 3.1 release, i.e. the "frozen" version of the language is
>> the state in which it was released as 3.1.
>
> I'm obviously +1 for this.
>
> I think one thing to decide is how long the moratorium is in effect.
> As of right now the PEP's abstract says for "at least two years",

Yeah, I changed that from Jesse's and your "not to exceed two years".

> which taking into account the release schedule Benjamin is proposing
> and assuming acceptance at the end of the year puts us at roughly the
> release of Python 3.3. Should we just say this will be in affect until
> development is open for Python 3.4?

I like the actual time limit, because it doesn't allow the backdoor of
releasing 3.4 early. I'm fine with saying the moratorium effectively
ends after 3.3 is released.

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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jnoller at gmail

Nov 3, 2009, 12:01 PM

Post #10 of 94 (630 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido [at] python> wrote:
> I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium", into
> SVN. As authors I've listed Jesse, Brett and myself.
>
> On python-ideas the moratorium idea got fairly positive responses
> (more positive than I'd expected, in fact) but I'm bracing myself for
> fierce discussion here on python-dev. It's important to me that if if
> this is accepted it is a "rough consensus" decision (working code we
> already have plenty of :-), not something enforced by a vocal minority
> or an influential individual such as myself. If there's too much
> opposition I'll withdraw the PEP so as not to waste everybody's time
> with a fruitless discussion.
>
> The PEP tries to spell out some gray areas but I'm sure there will be
> others; that's life. Do note that the PEP proposes to be *retroactive*
> back to the 3.1 release, i.e. the "frozen" version of the language is
> the state in which it was released as 3.1.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>

+1 - I'll work on some grammar kinks in my prose asap
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guido at python

Nov 3, 2009, 12:03 PM

Post #11 of 94 (624 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:23 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal [at] egenix> wrote:
>> This suspension of features is designed to allow non-CPython implementations
>> to "catch up" to the core implementation of the language, help ease adoption
>> of Python 3.x, and provide a more stable base for the community.
>
> I'd also add "to allow users to catch up"... ;-)

IMO that's implied by "help ease adoption".

> One question:
>
> There are currently number of patch waiting on the tracker for
> additional Unicode feature support and it's also likely that we'll
> want to upgrade to a more recent Unicode version within the
> next few years.
>
> How would such indirect changes be seen under the moratorium ?

That would fall under the Case-by-Case Exemptions section. "Within the
next few years" sounds like it might well wait until the moratorium is
ended though. :-)

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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facundobatista at gmail

Nov 3, 2009, 12:27 PM

Post #12 of 94 (631 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido [at] python> wrote:

> fierce discussion here on python-dev. It's important to me that if if
> this is accepted it is a "rough consensus" decision (working code we

+1 to the PEP.

--
. Facundo

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fuzzyman at voidspace

Nov 3, 2009, 12:42 PM

Post #13 of 94 (624 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Nov 3, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium", into
>> SVN. As authors I've listed Jesse, Brett and myself.
>>
>> On python-ideas the moratorium idea got fairly positive responses
>> (more positive than I'd expected, in fact) but I'm bracing myself for
>> fierce discussion here on python-dev. It's important to me that if if
>> this is accepted it is a "rough consensus" decision (working code we
>> already have plenty of :-), not something enforced by a vocal minority
>> or an influential individual such as myself. If there's too much
>> opposition I'll withdraw the PEP so as not to waste everybody's time
>> with a fruitless discussion.
>>
>> The PEP tries to spell out some gray areas but I'm sure there will be
>> others; that's life. Do note that the PEP proposes to be *retroactive*
>> back to the 3.1 release, i.e. the "frozen" version of the language is
>> the state in which it was released as 3.1.
>
> I think this is a great idea. I'd love to see the energy normally put
> into evolving the language into making the stdlib really kick ass.
>

+lots

Michael

> -Barry
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>

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skippy.hammond at gmail

Nov 3, 2009, 2:39 PM

Post #14 of 94 (621 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On 4/11/2009 4:35 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium", into
> SVN. As authors I've listed Jesse, Brett and myself.

Good move, +1.

Cheers,

Mark
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jackdied at gmail

Nov 3, 2009, 3:07 PM

Post #15 of 94 (623 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

+1. There are no compelling language changes on the horizon ("yield
from" is nice but not necessary). I see the main benefit of a
moratorium as social rather than technical by encouraging people to
work on the lib instead of the language. Plus, I'd gladly proxy my
vote to any one of the three PEP authors so 3/3 is a no-brainer.

-Jack
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stephen at xemacs

Nov 3, 2009, 5:39 PM

Post #16 of 94 (610 views)
Permalink

Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Guido van Rossum writes:
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:23 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal [at] egenix> wrote:

> > One question:
> >
> > There are currently number of patch waiting on the tracker for
> > additional Unicode feature support and it's also likely that we'll
> > want to upgrade to a more recent Unicode version within the
> > next few years.
> >
> > How would such indirect changes be seen under the moratorium ?
>
> That would fall under the Case-by-Case Exemptions section. "Within the
> next few years" sounds like it might well wait until the moratorium is
> ended though. :-)

(1) Unicode "feature support" (eg, implementing access to various
databases, implementation of new algorithms) strikes me as worth a
hearing but very dubious under case-by-case (the case I have in
mind is when necessary to support (2) or (3)).

(2) Adjusting existing implementations of Unicode features (eg,
universal newline, which currently does not conform to the
relevant TR AFAIK, thus dubious IMO) to conform to (new versions
of) Unicode seems worthy of consideration on a cost/benefit basis.
I would expect that in most cases the costs that lead to a
moratorium would outweigh prospective benefits, though. I don't
know of an example where I'd support an exception to the
moratorium for this, though. It's hard to imagine that things
like the algorithm for UTF-16 are going to change, and support for
things like bidi are currently outside of the scope of the
moratorium as I understand it -- they'd be stdlib facilities.

(3) Upgrading the character repertoire and property databases (eg,
case and composition) seems like a shoo-in to me. That's why the
databases are versioned. Of course there are costs to upgrading
(backward compatibility in some corner cases, eg) that might
outweigh the benefits at any given time, but I don't think this
should fall under the moratorium if someone finds a benefit to
upgrading the databases within the moratorium period.
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doug.hellmann at gmail

Nov 4, 2009, 2:05 AM

Post #17 of 94 (597 views)
Permalink

Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On Nov 3, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Michael Foord wrote:

> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> On Nov 3, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>
>>> I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium", into
>>> SVN. As authors I've listed Jesse, Brett and myself.
>>>
>>> On python-ideas the moratorium idea got fairly positive responses
>>> (more positive than I'd expected, in fact) but I'm bracing myself
>>> for
>>> fierce discussion here on python-dev. It's important to me that if
>>> if
>>> this is accepted it is a "rough consensus" decision (working code we
>>> already have plenty of :-), not something enforced by a vocal
>>> minority
>>> or an influential individual such as myself. If there's too much
>>> opposition I'll withdraw the PEP so as not to waste everybody's time
>>> with a fruitless discussion.
>>>
>>> The PEP tries to spell out some gray areas but I'm sure there will
>>> be
>>> others; that's life. Do note that the PEP proposes to be
>>> *retroactive*
>>> back to the 3.1 release, i.e. the "frozen" version of the language
>>> is
>>> the state in which it was released as 3.1.
>>
>> I think this is a great idea. I'd love to see the energy normally
>> put into evolving the language into making the stdlib really kick
>> ass.
>>
>
> +lots

Ditto.

Doug

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ncoghlan at gmail

Nov 4, 2009, 3:53 AM

Post #18 of 94 (597 views)
Permalink

Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Jack Diederich wrote:
> +1. There are no compelling language changes on the horizon ("yield
> from" is nice but not necessary).

Another +1 here.

A note in the PEP that there are no changes to SVN that would need to be
rolled back due to the moratorium would be a good addition (as per
Antoine's review of the NEWS file).

Cheers,
Nick.

--
Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan [at] gmail | Brisbane, Australia
---------------------------------------------------------------
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alexandre at peadrop

Nov 4, 2009, 12:19 PM

Post #19 of 94 (584 views)
Permalink

Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido [at] python> wrote:
> I've checked draft (!) PEP 3003, "Python Language Moratorium", into
> SVN. As authors I've listed Jesse, Brett and myself.
>

+1 from me.

-- Alexandre
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stefan_ml at behnel

Nov 4, 2009, 11:28 PM

Post #20 of 94 (575 views)
Permalink

Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Guido van Rossum, 03.11.2009 18:35:
> Python, as a language is more than the core implementation --
> CPython -- with a rich, mature and vibrant community of implementations,
> such as Jython [2]_, IronPython [3]_ and PyPy [4]_ that are a benefit
> not only to the community, but to the language itself.

I noticed that this says "such as", but if it's intended to name the major
implementations, I wonder why Cython is missing from that list.

Stefan

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fuzzyman at voidspace

Nov 5, 2009, 1:13 AM

Post #21 of 94 (567 views)
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Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Guido van Rossum, 03.11.2009 18:35:
>
>> Python, as a language is more than the core implementation --
>> CPython -- with a rich, mature and vibrant community of implementations,
>> such as Jython [2]_, IronPython [3]_ and PyPy [4]_ that are a benefit
>> not only to the community, but to the language itself.
>>
>
> I noticed that this says "such as", but if it's intended to name the major
> implementations, I wonder why Cython is missing from that list.
>

Is Cython an implementation of Python?

It's a grey area, but it seems like Cython is a "Python inspired"
language (similar to Shedskin) rather than an implementation of Python:

The Cython language is very close to the Python language, but Cython
additionally supports calling C functions and declaring C types on
variables and class attributes. This allows the compiler to generate
very efficient C code from Cython code.

(From http://www.cython.org/ )

There are several partial implementations, including Python inspired
languages, but if we are looking at 'major complete implementations'
then the current list seems to be: CPython, Jython, IronPython and PyPy.
Even Unladen Swallow is a fork (sorry - I mean branch) of CPython rather
than a separate implementation.

All the best,

Michael Foord

> Stefan
>
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stefan_ml at behnel

Nov 5, 2009, 2:11 AM

Post #22 of 94 (567 views)
Permalink

Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Michael Foord, 05.11.2009 10:13:
> Stefan Behnel wrote:
>> if it's intended to name the major
>> implementations, I wonder why Cython is missing from that list.
>
> Is Cython an implementation of Python?

We certainly aim for Python compatibility. That's a proclaimed 1.0 goal.
Not sure if that means Py3 or Py2 syntax, but that's just a parser detail,
after all.

> It's a grey area, but it seems like Cython is a "Python inspired"
> language (similar to Shedskin) rather than an implementation of Python:
>
> The Cython language is very close to the Python language, but Cython
> additionally supports calling C functions and declaring C types on
> variables and class attributes. This allows the compiler to generate
> very efficient C code from Cython code.
>
> (From http://www.cython.org/ )

Cython is different from Shedskin because Shedskin /requires/ the 'Python'
code to be static. Cython does not. It /optimises/ static code, but it will
not complain about dynamic code.

It /does/ make some static assumptions in that it considers builtins true
builtins. However, it does not prevent you from replacing them in your
code, as long as you do it inside the module. Certainly a restriction
compared to Python, where you can import a module into a changed dict
environment that redefines 'object', but not a major restriction IMO, and
certainly not one that impacts much code.

> There are several partial implementations, including Python inspired
> languages, but if we are looking at 'major complete implementations'
> then the current list seems to be: CPython, Jython, IronPython and PyPy.

Cython certainly is not a complete implementation, sure. It still lacks
support for local classes, for example, metaclasses aren't handled, and
generators are still in design stage. But if one of the goals of the
moratorium is to let implementations catch up with the syntax, then Cython
is certainly in line with that. I doubt that there will be much left on the
TODO list two years from now.

> Even Unladen Swallow is a fork (sorry - I mean branch) of CPython rather
> than a separate implementation.

Cython is somewhere in the middle. It's not a fork or branch. Rather, it
depends on the normal CPython runtime for certain features, such as the
standard library, the type/object implementation, garbage collection, and a
couple of dynamic features. But that doesn't prevent it from compiling your
module into an executable application.

Stefan

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fuzzyman at voidspace

Nov 5, 2009, 2:18 AM

Post #23 of 94 (566 views)
Permalink

Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Michael Foord, 05.11.2009 10:13:
>
>> Stefan Behnel wrote:
>>
>>> if it's intended to name the major
>>> implementations, I wonder why Cython is missing from that list.
>>>
>> Is Cython an implementation of Python?
>>
>
> We certainly aim for Python compatibility. That's a proclaimed 1.0 goal.
> Not sure if that means Py3 or Py2 syntax, but that's just a parser detail,
> after all.
>
>

Right, but I think the main point is that Cython is not an
implementation of Python. It uses Python syntax, calling into the Python
runtime for many of its features, and *extending* Python syntax for
compilation to C. (Right?)

Obviously a grey area - but if you take Cython code and try to run it on
ClassicPython then you are likely to have syntax errors. The same is not
true of the other full implementations (although where they use native
platform features you may not have the same libraries available - but
the language is unchanged).

All the best,

Michael

>
>> It's a grey area, but it seems like Cython is a "Python inspired"
>> language (similar to Shedskin) rather than an implementation of Python:
>>
>> The Cython language is very close to the Python language, but Cython
>> additionally supports calling C functions and declaring C types on
>> variables and class attributes. This allows the compiler to generate
>> very efficient C code from Cython code.
>>
>> (From http://www.cython.org/ )
>>
>
> Cython is different from Shedskin because Shedskin /requires/ the 'Python'
> code to be static. Cython does not. It /optimises/ static code, but it will
> not complain about dynamic code.
>
> It /does/ make some static assumptions in that it considers builtins true
> builtins. However, it does not prevent you from replacing them in your
> code, as long as you do it inside the module. Certainly a restriction
> compared to Python, where you can import a module into a changed dict
> environment that redefines 'object', but not a major restriction IMO, and
> certainly not one that impacts much code.
>
>
>
>> There are several partial implementations, including Python inspired
>> languages, but if we are looking at 'major complete implementations'
>> then the current list seems to be: CPython, Jython, IronPython and PyPy.
>>
>
> Cython certainly is not a complete implementation, sure. It still lacks
> support for local classes, for example, metaclasses aren't handled, and
> generators are still in design stage. But if one of the goals of the
> moratorium is to let implementations catch up with the syntax, then Cython
> is certainly in line with that. I doubt that there will be much left on the
> TODO list two years from now.
>
>
>
>> Even Unladen Swallow is a fork (sorry - I mean branch) of CPython rather
>> than a separate implementation.
>>
>
> Cython is somewhere in the middle. It's not a fork or branch. Rather, it
> depends on the normal CPython runtime for certain features, such as the
> standard library, the type/object implementation, garbage collection, and a
> couple of dynamic features. But that doesn't prevent it from compiling your
> module into an executable application.
>
> Stefan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list
> Python-Dev [at] python
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/fuzzyman%40voidspace.org.uk
>

--
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/

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stefan_ml at behnel

Nov 5, 2009, 2:47 AM

Post #24 of 94 (566 views)
Permalink

Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

Michael Foord, 05.11.2009 11:18:
> Stefan Behnel wrote:
>> We certainly aim for Python compatibility. That's a proclaimed 1.0 goal.
>
> Right, but I think the main point is that Cython is not an
> implementation of Python. It uses Python syntax, calling into the Python
> runtime for many of its features

It is a Python implementation in the sense that it implements syntax and
semantics of the Python language, be it through generated C code or by
calling into the CPython runtime. You could theoretically drop the entire
interpreter from CPython, and Cython would still work with the remaining
parts - not that it would be worth the effort on either side...

> and *extending* Python syntax for compilation to C.

Programmers can decide themselves if they want to statically type
variables, and they can do so without breaking with Python syntax. It is
certainly not required to use non-Python syntax to compile Python code, not
even if you want to get a fast binary module as a result.

> Obviously a grey area - but if you take Cython code and try to run it on
> ClassicPython then you are likely to have syntax errors. The same is not
> true of the other full implementations (although where they use native
> platform features you may not have the same libraries available - but
> the language is unchanged).

To me, the term "Python implementation" just means something that
implements the Python language. That shouldn't prevent it from providing
additional features. Jython can interface with Java code, IronPython can
interface with .NET code, Cython can interface with C code. Not sure what
PyPy allows in addition to being a Python implementation, but there surely
are language features also in PyPy that no other Python implementation
provides.

Stefan

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fijall at gmail

Nov 5, 2009, 2:58 AM

Post #25 of 94 (565 views)
Permalink

Re: PEP 3003 - Python Language Moratorium [In reply to]

>
> To me, the term "Python implementation" just means something that
> implements the Python language. That shouldn't prevent it from providing
> additional features. Jython can interface with Java code, IronPython can
> interface with .NET code, Cython can interface with C code. Not sure what
> PyPy allows in addition to being a Python implementation, but there surely
> are language features also in PyPy that no other Python implementation
> provides.
>
> Stefan
>

Hi.

Features available in PyPy (or Java or IronPython) are not language features.
These are features are available through normal python syntax, just
some libraries
are available extra. Python is something that passes most of CPython's test
suite, modulo stuff that is considered implementation detail (like
reference counting).
In fact, some of extra PyPy features can be achieved via extension modules like
greenlets.

Cython might as well at some point become one, but so far it does not even
import the whole test suite (correct me if I'm wrong), hence it's not
yet python.

Even if the ultimate goal is to support whole Python, it's not
achieved yet, so it
should not be considered implementation of Python (as of today, it might as well
be one tomorrow).

Cheers,
fijal
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