Mailing List Archive: Python: Dev

Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

david.lyon at preisshare

Oct 21, 2009, 5:34 PM

Post #1 of 12 (758 views)
Permalink

Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases

Hi All,

I started out some time ago and wrote a Python Package Manager
with wxpython. It was an interesting learning experience for
me. I was new to python.

Some have pointed out that using wx was not a good idea for
a tool to go into all the python distributions. Because it
required the external dependency of wx.

So, given that, I'm ready to have another go.

Some have suggested using Tk. But I noticed python Tk isn't
standard on ubuntu.

A console mode tool is possible. That would be better than
the nothing that we have under windows today.

Vote [1] - console mode tool for this

Alternatively, a web server based tool along the lines
of the old python docs system might be possible.

Vote [2] - web tool for this

I have come to understand that python-dev is full of
people that know the packages that they like, know how
to install them by hand, and probably only ever go
looking for upgrades.

However, for new users, it is so much harder.

It also seems to me that we have a lot of reasonable
and talented people, who are committed and dedicated.

To me, a relative outsider, it's not clear if this
is a python central issue, or a distutils issue. It
could be either. Advise me please.

By June next year, some people including myself, want
to go to europe for holidays - sorry conferences.. and
we want to take some work with us to talk about.

We can do the work..

But we need concessions...

What can we work on that might make a difference ?

If the current roadmap for distutils package management
on windows for the next 8 months is nothing, I can
live with that.

But seriously, lets get this discussion going again.

If a command line tool is all that windows users will
allowed to have, then it would be better than the
current plan which is for them to have nothing.

It's not just nothing for now, it's nothing for years.

That doesn't seem fair or nice. It's not just one
person saying that, it is a handful who don't use
windows on a regular basis.

Why can't we have an advocate from each major
platform? bring their issues, and try to come
to a consensus.

Even if that tool would simply allow them to choose:
- PIP
- Distribute
- Easy Install
- Python Package Manager

>From there, users could explore each offer on it's
own merits.

I'm interested in getting all types of opinions and feedback.

David

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

brett at python

Oct 21, 2009, 5:56 PM

Post #2 of 12 (731 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 17:34, David Lyon <david.lyon [at] preisshare> wrote:

>
> Hi All,
>
> I started out some time ago and wrote a Python Package Manager
> with wxpython. It was an interesting learning experience for
> me. I was new to python.
>
> Some have pointed out that using wx was not a good idea for
> a tool to go into all the python distributions. Because it
> required the external dependency of wx.
>
> So, given that, I'm ready to have another go.
>
>
I honestly don't see what this has to do with python-dev or the
distutils-sig. If you want to write a package management tool that's great,
but I don't see why python-dev should have input on that sort of thing.
Asking what kind of GUI to use is a comp.lang.python question and not a
python-dev question as I don't see anything like this going into the stdlib.

If you want distutils to expose something to make it easier to write your
tool then that belong on the distutils-sig. But otherwise this seems
off-topic for python-dev.

-Brett

david.lyon at preisshare

Oct 21, 2009, 6:17 PM

Post #3 of 12 (736 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:56:57 -0700, Brett Cannon <brett [at] python> wrote:

> but I don't see why python-dev should have input on that sort of thing.

python-dev is the only place where we could get a change to the
installation
binary release. We'd need a change and the addition of a program
shortcut.

> If you want distutils to expose something to make it easier to write your
> tool then that belong on the distutils-sig. But otherwise this seems
> off-topic for python-dev.

I didn't ask for that - because I know that getting that assistance on the
distutils side is certainly possible.

Distutils is simply just one of the many libraries within python. It
doesn't
have an external interface.

The roadmap for distutils for windows doesn't include getting a shortcut
or utility for windows so that's why I'm asking about it here.

Surely logic says that if it's 'python' and 'development' and it's
not in distutils then some discussion of it should be allowed here.

What I am really talking about is the menu shortcuts in the cpython
distribution for windows. And how they can be improved to help
windows users. This is the only place that I can think to discuss
that.

Best Regards

David

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

brett at python

Oct 21, 2009, 6:38 PM

Post #4 of 12 (730 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 18:17, David Lyon <david.lyon [at] preisshare> wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:56:57 -0700, Brett Cannon <brett [at] python> wrote:
>
> > but I don't see why python-dev should have input on that sort of thing.
>
> python-dev is the only place where we could get a change to the
> installation
> binary release. We'd need a change and the addition of a program
> shortcut.
>
>
But that assumes you can get your tool into the stdlib. It would have been
better to phrase the question as "is there interest in having a package
manager tool included with Python" rather than ask us out of the blue what
GUI you should use.

> > If you want distutils to expose something to make it easier to write your
> > tool then that belong on the distutils-sig. But otherwise this seems
> > off-topic for python-dev.
>
> I didn't ask for that - because I know that getting that assistance on the
> distutils side is certainly possible.
>
> Distutils is simply just one of the many libraries within python. It
> doesn't
> have an external interface.
>
>
And that's on purpose.

> The roadmap for distutils for windows doesn't include getting a shortcut
> or utility for windows so that's why I'm asking about it here.
>
> Surely logic says that if it's 'python' and 'development' and it's
> not in distutils then some discussion of it should be allowed here.
>
>
No it surely does not. We do not need to discuss design decisions of pip,
setuptools, virtualenv, buildout, or various other tools that involve the
terms "python" and "development" and are not in distutils.

> What I am really talking about is the menu shortcuts in the cpython
> distribution for windows. And how they can be improved to help
> windows users. This is the only place that I can think to discuss
> that.
>

David, you are making a huge leap here thinking that we even want a package
manager in the stdlib. You did not ask about menu shortcuts but whether a
package manager should be written using Tk or a web front-end. Then you
start discussing about wanting to add some UI to package management by
default on Windows or add some tool that sounds like what the EU is going to
have MS stick in front of users to get new user by browsers. This extends
beyond adding some shortcut the Windows installer adds to someone's machine.

I realize you are trying to help, David, but you are going in the wrong
direction here and pushing rather hard. At the language summit we discussed
opening up some APIs in distutils about making it easier for people to write
package management tools, but we don't have a burning desire to get into the
tool business. We make a language here. Distutils exists as a bootstrap
mechanism for the package story and for our own building needs of the
stdlib. But I doubt I am the only core developer who has no interest to be
in charge of a package management tool when there already exists several
good ones out there that people seem to find on their own without issue.

-Brett

david.lyon at preisshare

Oct 21, 2009, 7:13 PM

Post #5 of 12 (731 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:38:26 -0700, Brett Cannon <brett [at] python> wrote:
> But that assumes you can get your tool into the stdlib.

No I'm not assuming that I can. I am actually assuming that I cannot..

So lets move forward..

> It would have been
> better to phrase the question as "is there interest in having a package
> manager tool included with Python" rather than ask us out of the blue
what
> GUI you should use.

ok - but I think I know the answer to that.. you answer it next.

> David, you are making a huge leap here thinking that we even want a
package
> manager in the stdlib.

Well - who is 'we'? If it's python-dev people I can accept and respect
that.

If it's regular developers out there in developer land, I'm not so sure
about your assertion. I'd even politely have to disagree from my
experience.

> You did not ask about menu shortcuts but whether a
> package manager should be written using Tk or a web front-end.

I was thinking about the issue on the fly...

Menu shortcuts that link off to a a standard community web page
would be an excellent compromise - in the case where some tool
could not be added.

That would be a tremendous improvement for windows users over
what they are given at the moment.

> Then you
> start discussing about wanting to add some UI to package management by
> default on Windows or add some tool that sounds like what the EU is going
> to
> have MS stick in front of users to get new user by browsers. This extends
> beyond adding some shortcut the Windows installer adds to someone's
> machine.

That's going further than what I'm saying..

> I realize you are trying to help, David, but you are going in the wrong
> direction here and pushing rather hard.

On the counter side, others are pushing rather hard for 0 improvement
for the windows platform for the user experience. While everything else
on windows rushes ahead..

My direction is improving the developer experience for windows users. I
can't do compiler writing. I'm not clever enough.

> At the language summit we discussed
> opening up some APIs in distutils about making it easier for people to
> write
> package management tools, but we don't have a burning desire to get into
> the
> tool business.

ok - but nothing happened there...

I'm not in the tools business either. I'm not doing it for money but
that shouldn't be the point.

> We make a language here. Distutils exists as a bootstrap
> mechanism for the package story and for our own building needs of the
> stdlib.

I accept that it's a tool for building stdlib. No debate.

> But I doubt I am the only core developer who has no interest to be
> in charge of a package management tool when there already exists several
> good ones out there that people seem to find on their own without issue.

umm.. I disagree with the 'without issue' statement. I'm sure if I tralled
the mailing lists I could find more than one..

Enough from me for now. Thanks Brett.

David

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

v+python at g

Oct 21, 2009, 10:35 PM

Post #6 of 12 (724 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

On approximately 10/21/2009 7:13 PM, came the following characters from
the keyboard of David Lyon:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:38:26 -0700, Brett Cannon <brett [at] python> wrote:

>> We make a language here. Distutils exists as a bootstrap
>> mechanism for the package story and for our own building needs of the
>> stdlib.

Maybe what David is missing is that since python-dev is uninterested in
the package management issue, the only remaining way to include package
management in a convenient, single installation, is to

1) Create the package management tool
2) Create a bundled installer that will install both Python, the package
management tool, and any dependencies of the package management tool
3) Advertise the availability of the bundle, and its usefulness*
4) See how many users try it out, and as new versions of Python are
created, how many users keep coming back, in preference to the package
management tool free python.org distribution.

*There does seem to be precedent for mentioning/linking to other
distributions of Python from http://www.python.org/download/ so that
would surely be an avenue that is open to David, although I have no idea
what criteria must be met to obtain a listing on that page.

--
Glenn -- http://nevcal.com/
===========================
A protocol is complete when there is nothing left to remove.
-- Stuart Cheshire, Apple Computer, regarding Zero Configuration Networking
_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

stephen at xemacs

Oct 21, 2009, 11:54 PM

Post #7 of 12 (726 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

David Lyon writes:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:38:26 -0700, Brett Cannon <brett [at] python> wrote:

> > David, you are making a huge leap here thinking that we even want
> > a package manager in the stdlib.
>
> Well - who is 'we'? If it's python-dev people I can accept and
> respect that.

Yes. The stdlib is a product of python-dev.

> If it's regular developers out there in developer land,

They are not participants in this decision. python-dev people *do*
care about them. Nevertheless python-dev is manifestly uninterested
in dealing with *this* issue on behalf of the "regular developers out
there". (With good reasons IMHO, but you can find those reasons
elsewhere.)

To make progress here on python-dev, you need to get those regular
developers involved in python-dev. I can think of two ways to do this
that will help. (1) Turn them into committers via whatever aspect of
the language they are interested in. This will take a while, and
substantial contribution (ie, effort) on their part. Once that
happens, they will be in a much stronger position to advocate the
package manager and credibly promise to maintain it (or find a new,
credible maintainer) indefinitely.

(2) Put the package manager on PyPI and get a lot of people on the
bandwagon. If it's a good product and recommended, the movers and
shakers of python-dev will be very likely to try it and more likely to
second your motion in the future.

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

phd at phd

Oct 22, 2009, 3:08 AM

Post #8 of 12 (715 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:34:24PM -0400, David Lyon wrote:
> I started out some time ago and wrote a Python Package Manager
> with wxpython.

David, your message appeared in the middle of another thread. Please
don't use "Reply" button to start a new thread - send a new message.

Oleg.
--
Oleg Broytman http://phd.pp.ru/ phd [at] phd
Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

phd at phd

Oct 22, 2009, 3:12 AM

Post #9 of 12 (719 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:35:49PM -0700, Glenn Linderman wrote:
> Maybe what David is missing is that since python-dev is uninterested in
> the package management issue, the only remaining way to include package
> management in a convenient, single installation, is to
>
> 1) Create the package management tool
> 2) Create a bundled installer that will install both Python, the package
> management tool, and any dependencies of the package management tool
> 3) Advertise the availability of the bundle, and its usefulness*
> 4) See how many users try it out, and as new versions of Python are
> created, how many users keep coming back, in preference to the package
> management tool free python.org distribution.

David, may be my memory betrays me, but I think you ask you question not
for the first but for the second, if not the third time. And every time you
got exactly this answer - "Create the package management tool and see how
many users try it out".

Oleg.
--
Oleg Broytman http://phd.pp.ru/ phd [at] phd
Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

solipsis at pitrou

Oct 22, 2009, 3:20 AM

Post #10 of 12 (718 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

Glenn Linderman <v+python <at> g.nevcal.com> writes:
>
> Maybe what David is missing is that since python-dev is uninterested in
> the package management issue, [...]

It's a bit strong to say we are uninterested. Most of us are not interested
enough to tackle it ourselves (*), but we are certainly interested in good
package management being available for Python.

(*) Remember, however, that Tarek and work on Distribute, and also on bringing
pieces of setuptools/Distribute functionality into distutils.

It's true, however, that it is probably not the place to ask for advice with
directions to follow for a yet unwritten piece of software. The only piece of
advice (besides "forget Tk and use a modern toolkit" :-)) I could give would be
to build on Distribute, rather than reinvent a whole bunch of mechanisms.

Regards

Antoine.

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

david.lyon at preisshare

Oct 27, 2009, 10:13 PM

Post #11 of 12 (652 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:20:03 +0000 (UTC), Antoine Pitrou
<solipsis [at] pitrou> wrote:
> (*) Remember, however, that Tarek and work on Distribute, and also on
> bringing pieces of setuptools/Distribute functionality into distutils.

But if that's the case then why not work on any third party tool..? like
pip or setuptools?

It seems are very longwinded process if the only way to work on
python is to work on distutils but before doing that you have to
first work on distribute and then wait for all the changes to work
their way back up the chain..

Actually, I have finally worked out what I want. That is shell support
in the python windows distribution so that you can right click an
.egg and install it.

I don't see how that can be achieved by following the workprocess
that you describe above.

David

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

fetchinson at googlemail

Oct 28, 2009, 4:01 AM

Post #12 of 12 (657 views)
Permalink

Re: Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases [In reply to]

>> (*) Remember, however, that Tarek and work on Distribute, and also on
>> bringing pieces of setuptools/Distribute functionality into distutils.
>
> But if that's the case then why not work on any third party tool..? like
> pip or setuptools?
>
> It seems are very longwinded process if the only way to work on
> python is to work on distutils but before doing that you have to
> first work on distribute and then wait for all the changes to work
> their way back up the chain..
>
> Actually, I have finally worked out what I want. That is shell support
> in the python windows distribution so that you can right click an
> .egg and install it.
>
> I don't see how that can be achieved by following the workprocess
> that you describe above.

As has been said by many, you are entirely welcome to work on whatever
tool you think is useful. Once you are done you are again welcome to
distribute your tool or application to users and see how many users
are happy with it. Once you are done with this step as well, you are
again encouraged to come back to python-dev and say:

"In the last X months my app/tool became very popular in the python
community. There are Y developers working on the app/tool and there
are Z happy users. I'd suggest including it in the python stdlib or
I'd suggest coordinating the releases of my app/tool with that of
python."

At this point a useful conversation can start. Please note that a
similarly useful conversation is impossible to take place before all
the above steps have been completed.

HTH,
Daniel

--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev [at] python
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/list-python-dev%40lists.gossamer-threads.com

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

Interested in having your list archived? Contact Gossamer Threads