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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local

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Oct 20, 2009, 4:21 AM

Post #1 of 23 (634 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local

New submission from Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek [at] gmail>:

[.]pydistutils.cfg will be deprecated in favor of a single
"distutils.cfg", located in .local/ alongside the files added for
example by the per user-site packages.

----------
assignee: tarek
components: Distutils
messages: 94272
nosy: tarek
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
versions: Python 2.7, Python 3.2

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report at bugs

Oct 20, 2009, 7:39 AM

Post #2 of 23 (604 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Antoine Pitrou <pitrou [at] free> added the comment:

Why is this? .local/ contains machine-installed files while
.pydistutils.cfg is edited by the user.

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nosy: +pitrou

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report at bugs

Oct 20, 2009, 7:55 AM

Post #3 of 23 (604 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek [at] gmail> added the comment:

That's what is returned by site.getuserbase()

(which uses PYTHONUSERBASE, and defaults to ~/.local)

PYTHONUSERBASE is the root of Python user-specific paths so it makes
sense to have all Python related files in there.

This came up with the discussion we had with others at Distutils-SIG

read this thread here for more info:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-August/012865.html

[.]pypirc should probably go there too.

----------
type: -> feature request

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report at bugs

Oct 20, 2009, 8:03 AM

Post #4 of 23 (605 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Antoine Pitrou <pitrou [at] free> added the comment:

> That's what is returned by site.getuserbase()
>
> (which uses PYTHONUSERBASE, and defaults to ~/.local)

Well, that makes it the user-specific equivalent of /usr or /usr/local.
Do you put your configuration files in /usr/local ? Why put them
in .local ?

> PYTHONUSERBASE is the root of Python user-specific paths so it makes
> sense to have all Python related files in there.

That doesn't make sense actually, since .local isn't Python-specific. :)

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report at bugs

Oct 20, 2009, 8:11 AM

Post #5 of 23 (608 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Antoine Pitrou <pitrou [at] free> added the comment:

I've read the thread now and I think the original proposal of having a
~/.python was more sensible and more user-friendly.

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report at bugs

Oct 20, 2009, 8:17 AM

Post #6 of 23 (607 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

R. David Murray <rdmurray [at] bitdance> added the comment:

+1 to what Antoine said.

----------
nosy: +r.david.murray

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report at bugs

Oct 20, 2009, 8:21 AM

Post #7 of 23 (604 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek [at] gmail> added the comment:

> Well, that makes it the user-specific equivalent of /usr or /usr/local.
> Do you put your configuration files in /usr/local ?
> Why put them in .local ?

The distutils.cfg file is located in the distutils package itself !

So the target is ~/.local/pythonX.X/site-packages/distutils/distutils.cfg

(sorry if that was unclear)

Now, I would totally agree to have a better ~/.NAME to reunite
user-specific *configuration* file for Python, but that would be yet
another directory for user-specific Python files.

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report at bugs

Oct 20, 2009, 8:37 AM

Post #8 of 23 (604 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Antoine Pitrou <pitrou [at] free> added the comment:

> The distutils.cfg file is located in the distutils package itself !
>
> So the target is ~/.local/pythonX.X/site-packages/distutils/distutils.cfg

Ah, that's horrible. -1 to that.
Configuration files should be easily findable by skimming through the
dot-files in the user's directory. ~/.python fulfills that condition.

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report at bugs

Oct 20, 2009, 8:50 AM

Post #9 of 23 (604 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek [at] gmail> added the comment:

I like ~/.python very much too (that was my initial proposal IIRC).

I guess the best way to add this support is to provide a new api in
site.py, that returns this folder.

Distutils can move pypirc and distutils.cfg file there.

Now for the global distutils.cfg, if we want to have it somewhere else
that the distutils package directory itself, we would need a
"/etc/python" scheme for instance, that could be also added in site.py.

I don't know though how the latter would look under windows

----------
nosy: +barry, lemburg

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report at bugs

Oct 20, 2009, 10:32 AM

Post #10 of 23 (605 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <mal [at] egenix> added the comment:

Tarek Ziadé wrote:
>
> Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek [at] gmail> added the comment:
>
> I like ~/.python very much too (that was my initial proposal IIRC).

+1 on that name as well.

One thing to note though: it is well possible that a user uses
multiple Python versions. With just one such directory, all
versions would look in the same directory for the configuration
files and this could lead to incompatibilities, e.g. Python 2.7
might not like that Python 3.6 needs in some config file (for
whatever reason).

> Now for the global distutils.cfg, if we want to have it somewhere else
> that the distutils package directory itself, we would need a
> "/etc/python" scheme for instance, that could be also added in site.py.
>
> I don't know though how the latter would look under windows

I think Subversion get's this pretty right, so we might want
to follow their scheme:

http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/ch07.html#svn-ch-7-sect-1

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report at bugs

Oct 24, 2009, 5:56 AM

Post #11 of 23 (579 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek [at] gmail> added the comment:

The subversion system looks pretty nice !

So here's a modified proposal that covers the python version as well.

= per user configuration files =

~/.pythonMAJOR.MINOR

Examples:

~/.python2.7
~/.python3.1

On Windows, ~ will be replaced by APPDATA if founded in the environment.

== global configuration files ==

On Linux/Mac:

/etc/pythonMAJOR.MINOR

examples:

/etc/python2.7/
/etc/python3.1/

On Windows:

\All users\Application Data\PythonMAJORMINOR

(\All users\Application Data is specified by the Windows Registry)

examples:

\All users\Application Data\Python26
\All users\Application Data\Python31

== standard naming for configuration files ==

The files are all named "NAME.cfg", in all platforms.

== what gets in per-user configuration directory ==

- pypi.cfg
- distutils.cfg

== what gets in global configuration directory ==

- distutils.cfg

== apis added ==

in site.py:

- getuserconfig() : returns the per-user configuration directory
- getconfig(): returns the global configuration directory

(the names are following site.py naming style)

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report at bugs

Oct 26, 2009, 2:06 PM

Post #12 of 23 (556 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Georg Brandl <georg [at] python> added the comment:

FYI, /etc/pythonX.Y (and /etc/python) are used by Debian; the former
contains site.py and sitecustomize.py, the latter a file called
debain_config.

I can't see how this could become a problem, but maybe someone else does.

----------
nosy: +georg.brandl

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report at bugs

Oct 26, 2009, 3:04 PM

Post #13 of 23 (555 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek [at] gmail> added the comment:

Thanks for the info Georges.

I am adding Matthias and Michael so they can give us their opinions for
their platforms (Debian/Ubuntu and Win)

----------
nosy: +doko, michael.foord

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Oct 26, 2009, 3:12 PM

Post #14 of 23 (556 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Michael Foord <michael [at] voidspace> added the comment:

Personally I'm uncomfortable with creating
yet-another-location-for-config-files.

As we now have is ~/.local/pythonX.Y I would reuse this.

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Oct 26, 2009, 3:28 PM

Post #15 of 23 (555 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Georg Brandl <georg [at] python> added the comment:

But ~/.local is simply not the location for config files.

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Oct 26, 2009, 3:35 PM

Post #16 of 23 (558 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Michael Foord <michael [at] voidspace> added the comment:

For Linux and Mac OS X put the config file wherever the 'right' place is
then, but we are starting to create a lot of new directories disparate
from the actual install. Oh well.

On Windows we create: %APPDATA%/Python/PythonX.Y/site-packages

If it is to no longer live inside distutils (which seems reasonable)
then on Windoze a 'good' place would seem to be: %APPDATA%/Python/PythonX.Y/

On Windows there is no 'right' place, the officially right place for the
system is probably the registry but I don't think many Python
programmers would thank you for that...

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Oct 26, 2009, 3:36 PM

Post #17 of 23 (554 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Michael Foord <michael [at] voidspace> added the comment:

Noting of course that on IronPython it should be:
%APPDATA%/IronPython/PythonX.Y/

or wherever we decided in the end. :-)

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Oct 28, 2009, 2:40 AM

Post #18 of 23 (553 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Ned Deily <nad [at] acm> added the comment:

/etc is definitely not the right place to put files for OS X framework
builds; if necessary, an etc directory could be added under the
framework version directory as a sibling of bin and lib. It's also very
un-OS X like to be putting things into ~/.python and ~/.local
directories; the usual place would be in somewhere ~/Library, possibly
~/Library/Application Support/Python or ~/Library/Frameworks. Keep in
mind that it's much more likely on OS X to not only have muitiple
versions of Python installed but also more than one instance of the
*same* version, for instance, on 10.6, an Apple-supplied 2.6.2 and a
python.org 2.6.4. Some thought should be given to locations for the
files for Unix-style (non-framework) builds.

(Adding Ronald.)

----------
nosy: +ned.deily, ronaldoussoren

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Oct 28, 2009, 2:46 AM

Post #19 of 23 (553 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <mal [at] egenix> added the comment:

Ned Deily wrote:
>
> Ned Deily <nad [at] acm> added the comment:
>
> /etc is definitely not the right place to put files for OS X framework
> builds; if necessary, an etc directory could be added under the
> framework version directory as a sibling of bin and lib. It's also very
> un-OS X like to be putting things into ~/.python and ~/.local
> directories; the usual place would be in somewhere ~/Library, possibly
> ~/Library/Application Support/Python or ~/Library/Frameworks. Keep in
> mind that it's much more likely on OS X to not only have muitiple
> versions of Python installed but also more than one instance of the
> *same* version, for instance, on 10.6, an Apple-supplied 2.6.2 and a
> python.org 2.6.4. Some thought should be given to locations for the
> files for Unix-style (non-framework) builds.
>
> (Adding Ronald.)

I think there is a misunderstanding here: we're trying to find
places where distutils would look by default, not where it
would write files.

AFAIK, there is general agreement that when writing files,
Python should use the ~/.local/pythonX.X/ directory.

OTOH, searching for config files that the user creates and
puts in place is another story. Python and distutils only
need to be able to find these and the idea is to use platform
specific standard search paths for this, so that the user
can place those config files into places that feel right on
each platform.

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Oct 28, 2009, 3:24 AM

Post #20 of 23 (553 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Ned Deily <nad [at] acm> added the comment:

I don't think there's a misunderstanding. By "putting", I meant "reading"
or "writing". IMO, /etc is not the place on OS X to be looking for
python-related configuration files, certainly not for framework installs.
Likewise for ~/.python and ~/.local. Unfortunately, the latter is already
out in the field; that was a step in the wrong direction for OS X.

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report at bugs

Oct 28, 2009, 12:19 PM

Post #21 of 23 (552 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Changes by Frank Wierzbicki <fwierzbicki [at] gmail>:

----------
nosy: +fwierzbicki

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Oct 28, 2009, 1:11 PM

Post #22 of 23 (552 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren [at] mac> added the comment:

I agree with Ned that neither ~/.local nor /etc are a good fit for OSX,
sadly enough I wasn't paying attention when ~/.local was added as python
already had a per-user directory on OSX: ~/Library/Python.

The common unix directories are often not a good pick for good OSX
citizens, even if OSX is build on Unix.

The OSX filesystem structure should be described somewhere below
<http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/
BPFileSystem/BPFileSystem.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/10000185>, although I
haven't found a clear explanation yet.

Technically configuration files should be stored in /Library/Preferences
(system wide) or ~/Library/Preferences (per user), but I'd say
practicality beats purity here and I'd store configuration in
/Library/Python/etc or ~/Library/Python/etc.

BTW. I haven't read most of the discussion yet, I'll probably have more
to add when I do. What I did notice was a proposal to store the
distutils cfg file in ~/.local/lib/pythonX.Y/site-
packages/distutils.cfg. IMHO that way to hidden and an unexpected
location for storing configuration files.

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Nov 5, 2009, 7:10 PM

Post #23 of 23 (487 views)
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[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local [In reply to]

Éric Araujo <merwok [at] netwok> added the comment:

When ~/.local/lib was chosen for the user directory, the BaseDir Spec
was given as prior example. Why not go the full way and follow the spec?
The config file could be $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/python/distutils, with
$XDG_CONFIG_HOME defaulting to ~/.config.

References:
http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-0.6.html
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/pyxdg (deals with
freedesktop.org-approved file formats too; the part of the code that
deals with paths would make a useful addition to the stdlib, as more and
more applications follow the spec)

----------
nosy: +Merwok

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