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Re: [Openstack] Mailing-list split

 

 

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duncan at dreamhost

Apr 27, 2012, 2:43 PM

Post #1 of 7 (356 views)
Permalink
Re: [Openstack] Mailing-list split

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Everett Toews <everett.toews [at] cybera> wrote:
> I like this idea but what happens to the openstack-operators list in this
> scenario?
>
> I don't think we'd want to have the openstack and openstack-operators list
> going along in parallel since it sounds like they would overlap. I propose
> that the members of the openstack-operators list would be (automatically or
> manually) migrated to the openstack list. Then the openstack-operators list
> would be set to read-only or maybe even removed completely to avoid
> confusion.
>
> Comments? Feedback?

Hrm. One of the things that came out of the Design Summit discussions
around DevOps was that the OpenStack "DevOps" sub-community doesn't
really feel like it has a voice. As a result, I'd be loathe to remove
that venue for discussion right now, even if it's only of symbolic
value.

That being said, I propose that something along the following lines
could happen:
* intense dev work, collaboration, etc., happening on openstack-dev@
* general usage of openstack questions by folks who are not code
contributors, but standing up OpenStack itself, happening on
openstack@
* conversations around DevOps in particular (the wide spectrum of
definitions that comprise "DevOps" in various people's minds)
happening in openstack-operators@

In helping jump-start (or re-jump-start) the OpenStack DevOps
community, I'd really like to have a dedicated place for
announcements, questions, etc. Even if we spent some time pointing
folks to more detailed, technical resources.

In hallway conversations at the summit (and in various emails and
phone calls since then), people who consider themselves "DevOps" have
expressed concern over the possibility that the operators list would
go away. They are overwhelmed by the volume of traffic on the
openstack list, and don't have the time to devise a solution for
creating appropriate filters, etc.

That objection may simply go away with the new mail list split.

But if openstack-operators has become a property valuable to community
members, we shouldn't just get rid of it because it doesn't make
logical sense. We should make sure that folks are ready to transition
to another location for their DevOps needs.

And that might take a cycle to sort out...

d
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stefano at openstack

Apr 27, 2012, 5:59 PM

Post #2 of 7 (352 views)
Permalink
Re: [Openstack] Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On Fri 27 Apr 2012 02:43:14 PM PDT, Duncan McGreggor wrote:
> But if openstack-operators has become a property valuable to community
> members, we shouldn't just get rid of it because it doesn't make
> logical sense. We should make sure that folks are ready to transition
> to another location for their DevOps needs.

I agree with this approach: let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
We should make one small change at the time, measure/evaluate and keep
changing as needed.

thanks,
stef
_______________________________________________
Openstack-operators mailing list
Openstack-operators [at] lists
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators


everett.toews at cybera

Apr 30, 2012, 9:12 AM

Post #3 of 7 (344 views)
Permalink
Re: [Openstack] Mailing-list split [In reply to]

I'm always an advocate for one less thing. If it makes sense to do so, I
would rather have two things than three. It's simply a matter of less
complexity and less confusion. I'm not convinced we need three lists.

Duncan, you describe the audience for the openstack list as "folks who are
not code contributors, but standing up OpenStack itself". To me that
sounds, at least in part, to be the role of Ops people.

It's strange to me that we would take the existing mailing list
openstack-operators and move the Ops people on it to the openstack list and
repurpose the openstack-operators for DevOps people.

It's even stranger to me that a list devoted to DevOps would exclude the
Ops people, the openstack-operators for DevOps and openstack for Ops split.
One of the major tenants of DevOps is to be inclusive of Ops. I think the
new DevOps community could learn a lot from the kinds of questions that Ops
people are asking about OpenStack. And vice versa, the Ops people could
give input on solutions being worked on by DevOps.

What is your justification for excluding the Ops from DevOps?

And sorry, I don't buy the "don't have the time to devise a solution
for creating appropriate filters" argument. It takes 10 seconds to create a
filter to shunt mailing list traffic to another folder/label away from your
inbox.

To me it seems like you don't want to be on the Dev list and you don't want
to be on the Ops list, you want your own DevOps list. I *applaud* the
re-jump-start of the OpenStack DevOps community but I don't think isolating
yourselves is the way to go.

I agree that it might take a cycle to sort out and I agree that we should
make one small change at the time, measure/evaluate and keep changing as
needed. If one list or the other does not have much traction by the next
Summit, we should consider a merge.

But even before then, please do consider whether or not the DevOps
community really needs its own list.

Everett

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Duncan McGreggor <duncan [at] dreamhost>wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Everett Toews <everett.toews [at] cybera>
> wrote:
> > I like this idea but what happens to the openstack-operators list in this
> > scenario?
> >
> > I don't think we'd want to have the openstack and openstack-operators
> list
> > going along in parallel since it sounds like they would overlap. I
> propose
> > that the members of the openstack-operators list would be (automatically
> or
> > manually) migrated to the openstack list. Then the openstack-operators
> list
> > would be set to read-only or maybe even removed completely to avoid
> > confusion.
> >
> > Comments? Feedback?
>
> Hrm. One of the things that came out of the Design Summit discussions
> around DevOps was that the OpenStack "DevOps" sub-community doesn't
> really feel like it has a voice. As a result, I'd be loathe to remove
> that venue for discussion right now, even if it's only of symbolic
> value.
>
> That being said, I propose that something along the following lines
> could happen:
> * intense dev work, collaboration, etc., happening on openstack-dev@
> * general usage of openstack questions by folks who are not code
> contributors, but standing up OpenStack itself, happening on
> openstack@
> * conversations around DevOps in particular (the wide spectrum of
> definitions that comprise "DevOps" in various people's minds)
> happening in openstack-operators@
>
> In helping jump-start (or re-jump-start) the OpenStack DevOps
> community, I'd really like to have a dedicated place for
> announcements, questions, etc. Even if we spent some time pointing
> folks to more detailed, technical resources.
>
> In hallway conversations at the summit (and in various emails and
> phone calls since then), people who consider themselves "DevOps" have
> expressed concern over the possibility that the operators list would
> go away. They are overwhelmed by the volume of traffic on the
> openstack list, and don't have the time to devise a solution for
> creating appropriate filters, etc.
>
> That objection may simply go away with the new mail list split.
>
> But if openstack-operators has become a property valuable to community
> members, we shouldn't just get rid of it because it doesn't make
> logical sense. We should make sure that folks are ready to transition
> to another location for their DevOps needs.
>
> And that might take a cycle to sort out...
>
> d
>


stefano at openstack

Apr 30, 2012, 10:08 AM

Post #4 of 7 (356 views)
Permalink
Re: [Openstack] Mailing-list split [In reply to]

hi Everett,

On Mon 30 Apr 2012 09:12:24 AM PDT, Everett Toews wrote:
> It's strange to me that we would take the existing mailing list
> openstack-operators and move the Ops people on it to the openstack
> list and repurpose the openstack-operators for DevOps people.

I'm lost here, I don't understand what you're proposing to do.

Let's summarize:

Thierry framed the problem:

> The traffic on the openstack [at] lists list doubled in the
> last 4 months [3], with more users and deployers asking for information
> on OpenStack projects.

And he made a proposa to split between:

> 1/ Usage, deployment, Essex / current-stable discussions
> 2/ Development, contribution, Folsom / forward-looking discussions
>
> A new list will be created for (2) and existing contributors will be
> asked to subscribe to that new list

He said nothing about point 1. I assumed that openstack-operators is
one of the place for discussions around usage, deployment and such
(another place for that is the forum).

It seems to me there there is consensus to keep openstack-operators and
forums running therefore I'll ask Todd to review the
openstack.org/community pages (and the top navigation bar) in order to
make these landing destinations more prominent.

Cheers,
stef
_______________________________________________
Openstack-operators mailing list
Openstack-operators [at] lists
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators


everett.toews at cybera

Apr 30, 2012, 11:01 AM

Post #5 of 7 (360 views)
Permalink
Re: [Openstack] Mailing-list split [In reply to]

Hi Stefano,

I was replying to Duncan's email, not Thierry's. I'm all for the new
openstack-dev list.

It was Duncan's proposal that the other lists be split as so.

1. openstack-dev = Dev
2. openstack = Ops
3. openstack-operators = DevOps

I am questioning the necessity to have both lists 2 and 3. My proposal
boils down to the question, does the DevOps community really need its own
list?

I'm willing to wait until the next Summit to see what the traffic numbers
are like on the openstack and openstack-operators lists before any
decisions are made around merging them or keeping them separate. However, I
still think it's worthwhile to ask the question above.

Regards,
Everett

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Stefano Maffulli <stefano [at] openstack>wrote:

> hi Everett,
>
> On Mon 30 Apr 2012 09:12:24 AM PDT, Everett Toews wrote:
> > It's strange to me that we would take the existing mailing list
> > openstack-operators and move the Ops people on it to the openstack
> > list and repurpose the openstack-operators for DevOps people.
>
> I'm lost here, I don't understand what you're proposing to do.
>
> Let's summarize:
>
> Thierry framed the problem:
>
> > The traffic on the openstack [at] lists list doubled in the
> > last 4 months [3], with more users and deployers asking for information
> > on OpenStack projects.
>
> And he made a proposa to split between:
>
> > 1/ Usage, deployment, Essex / current-stable discussions
> > 2/ Development, contribution, Folsom / forward-looking discussions
> >
> > A new list will be created for (2) and existing contributors will be
> > asked to subscribe to that new list
>
> He said nothing about point 1. I assumed that openstack-operators is
> one of the place for discussions around usage, deployment and such
> (another place for that is the forum).
>
> It seems to me there there is consensus to keep openstack-operators and
> forums running therefore I'll ask Todd to review the
> openstack.org/community pages (and the top navigation bar) in order to
> make these landing destinations more prominent.
>
> Cheers,
> stef
>


duncan at dreamhost

Apr 30, 2012, 11:07 AM

Post #6 of 7 (355 views)
Permalink
Re: [Openstack] Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Everett Toews <everett.toews [at] cybera> wrote:
> Hi Stefano,
>
> I was replying to Duncan's email, not Thierry's. I'm all for the new
> openstack-dev list.
>
> It was Duncan's proposal that the other lists be split as so.
>
> 1. openstack-dev = Dev
> 2. openstack = Ops
> 3. openstack-operators = DevOps

To be clear, my proposal is to see how the devops community feels
about this, before deciding it's a good idea, without their input.

> I am questioning the necessity to have both lists 2 and 3. My proposal boils
> down to the question, does the DevOps community really need its own list?

As soon as it's clear that *everyone* feels this way, we should do it.
Until then, we should not make decisions that impact the community
(e.g., taking something away that may be valueable to some) without
getting their feedback and finding some way transition in a way that
keeps everyone happy.

> I'm willing to wait until the next Summit to see what the traffic numbers
> are like on the openstack and openstack-operators lists before any decisions
> are made around merging them or keeping them separate.

Agreed.

> However, I still
> think it's worthwhile to ask the question above.

Agreed.

d
_______________________________________________
Openstack-operators mailing list
Openstack-operators [at] lists
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators


matt at opscode

Apr 30, 2012, 11:37 AM

Post #7 of 7 (353 views)
Permalink
Re: [Openstack] Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Duncan McGreggor <duncan [at] dreamhost> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Everett Toews <everett.toews [at] cybera> wrote:
>> Hi Stefano,
>>
>> I was replying to Duncan's email, not Thierry's. I'm all for the new
>> openstack-dev list.
>>
>> It was Duncan's proposal that the other lists be split as so.
>>
>> 1. openstack-dev = Dev
>> 2. openstack = Ops
>> 3. openstack-operators = DevOps
<snip>

I think adding the "openstack-dev" list will help alleviate traffic on
"openstack", but we should keep 3 mailing lists. The "openstack" one
will probably continue to be a mix of traffic, and as new community
members become more familiar with the mailing list landscape they'll
move to the proper lists (with gentle encouragement as well). With
more visibility and encouragement, more focused operations questions
will get to the proper "openstack-operators" list in the future
(likewise -dev). I don't expect mailing list traffic to decrease in
the future, so reducing the number of mailing lists seems unnecessary.

Thanks,
Matt Ray
Senior Technical Evangelist | Opscode Inc.
matt [at] opscode | (512) 731-2218
Twitter, IRC, GitHub: mattray




> To be clear, my proposal is to see how the devops community feels
> about this, before deciding it's a good idea, without their input.
>
>> I am questioning the necessity to have both lists 2 and 3. My proposal boils
>> down to the question, does the DevOps community really need its own list?
>
> As soon as it's clear that *everyone* feels this way, we should do it.
> Until then, we should not make decisions that impact the community
> (e.g., taking something away that may be valueable to some) without
> getting their feedback and finding some way transition in a way that
> keeps everyone happy.
>
>> I'm willing to wait until the next Summit to see what the traffic numbers
>> are like on the openstack and openstack-operators lists before any decisions
>> are made around merging them or keeping them separate.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> However, I still
>> think it's worthwhile to ask the question above.
>
> Agreed.
>
> d
> _______________________________________________
> Openstack-operators mailing list
> Openstack-operators [at] lists
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
_______________________________________________
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