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User Friendly Development -was- Fwd: [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom

 

 

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lloydostack at gmail

Jul 26, 2012, 2:34 PM

Post #1 of 8 (202 views)
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User Friendly Development -was- Fwd: [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom

Oops, I meant to fork the thread.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Lloyd Dewolf <lloydostack [at] gmail>
Date: Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Openstack] [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom
To: openstack [at] lists


On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack> wrote:
>
> Using the "user committee" setup, you don't really need to take
> authority away from the PTL. You increase the influence of the "users"
> on technical decisions. You just provide a clear and official mechanism
> to represent the interests of "the users" as a whole. Once you have
> that, if the PTL or technical committee decides to ignore it, it's a
> rather strong decision that better has to be well justified. Its better
> than having some arbitrary percentage of "users" in a single committee
> and then have most decisions won by the most largely represented party.
>
> If the user committee is an active and respected group, it provides nice
> checks and balances against developers living in developer bubbles. Most
> issues we have right now with deployer-friendliness are linked to the
> fact that "the users" don't have a clear or official voice.
>
> The trick is, of course, to manage to set up such a committee in a way
> that represents all the users and deployers. It will be all the more
> influential if it is seen as representing all the users, rather than
> just a loosely-tied pre-determined subset of large users.

I generally agree with your thoughts around a "user committee".


For my benefit, I'd love to get a feel for what we're doing to make
development user friendly?


In my fantasies for the Grizzly release it would start something like:

A. Grizzly Summit

B. From the summit the Tech Committee & PTL have community consensus
on the overarching goal for the release and the projects' goals.
Articulated online in user friendly manner.

C. Webinar / OpenStack User Groups get a presentation on the release
goals, and channels for input and participation.

D. About the half way point in release schedule, development adjusts
the online communication to reflect reality, presents an update, and
again channels for input and participation.


How do things work today? I haven't found much in the wiki.


Thanks,
--
@lloyddewolf
http://www.pistoncloud.com/


--
--
@lloyddewolf
http://www.pistoncloud.com/

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lloydostack at gmail

Jul 27, 2012, 10:00 AM

Post #2 of 8 (194 views)
Permalink
Re: User Friendly Development -was- Fwd: [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom [In reply to]

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:48 AM, Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack> wrote:
> Lloyd Dewolf wrote:
>> In my fantasies for the Grizzly release it would start something like:
>>
>> A. Grizzly Summit
>>
>> B. From the summit the Tech Committee & PTL have community consensus
>> on the overarching goal for the release and the projects' goals.
>> Articulated online in user friendly manner.
>>
>> C. Webinar / OpenStack User Groups get a presentation on the release
>> goals, and channels for input and participation.
>>
>> D. About the half way point in release schedule, development adjusts
>> the online communication to reflect reality, presents an update, and
>> again channels for input and participation.
>>
>> How do things work today? I haven't found much in the wiki.
>
> Currently we publicly track and adjust release goals through the series
> blueprints in Launchpad (for example:
> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/folsom for Quantum). You can
> see a combined view for all Folsom at:
> http://wiki.openstack.org/releasestatus/ . The plan is initially seeded
> by the PTLs after the design summit, then continuously adjusted to
> reflect reality (with a status update every week at the Project &
> Release status meeting).
>
> These public plans can then be used by anyone who wants to present them
> in webinars or user group meetups, and anyone is free to comment on them
> and provide input.
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> Release Manager, OpenStack

Very cool. I'll sync up with the crew right after the Grizzly design
summit to see if we can make this accessibly through communication to
the user base.

Anyone else interested in collaborating on driving this experiment?

Thank you,
--
@lloyddewolf
http://www.pistoncloud.com/

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mark.collier at rackspace

Jul 27, 2012, 10:18 AM

Post #3 of 8 (198 views)
Permalink
Re: User Friendly Development -was- Fwd: [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom [In reply to]

I think these are some very thoughtful ideas on how to ensure users are influencing the roadmap (among other goals).

I do wonder if it would make sense to gather user feedback and goals before the summit, like the day (or week) before, to help provide some priorities (from their perspective) to consider going into the summit.

Maybe it's an online meeting/webinar (meeting burner is a nice hybrid) led by the user committee and a meetup Sunday night before the summit kicks off to review. Then we throw the top 5 priorities up on the screens in every summit session as a reminder.

These are just a few ideas, I'm sure as the user committee forms they will take the ones that make sense.



On Jul 26, 2012, at 5:43 PM, "Lloyd Dewolf" <lloydostack [at] gmail> wrote:

> Oops, I meant to fork the thread.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Lloyd Dewolf <lloydostack [at] gmail>
> Date: Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 1:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Openstack] [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom
> To: openstack [at] lists
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack> wrote:
>>
>> Using the "user committee" setup, you don't really need to take
>> authority away from the PTL. You increase the influence of the "users"
>> on technical decisions. You just provide a clear and official mechanism
>> to represent the interests of "the users" as a whole. Once you have
>> that, if the PTL or technical committee decides to ignore it, it's a
>> rather strong decision that better has to be well justified. Its better
>> than having some arbitrary percentage of "users" in a single committee
>> and then have most decisions won by the most largely represented party.
>>
>> If the user committee is an active and respected group, it provides nice
>> checks and balances against developers living in developer bubbles. Most
>> issues we have right now with deployer-friendliness are linked to the
>> fact that "the users" don't have a clear or official voice.
>>
>> The trick is, of course, to manage to set up such a committee in a way
>> that represents all the users and deployers. It will be all the more
>> influential if it is seen as representing all the users, rather than
>> just a loosely-tied pre-determined subset of large users.
>
> I generally agree with your thoughts around a "user committee".
>
>
> For my benefit, I'd love to get a feel for what we're doing to make
> development user friendly?
>
>
> In my fantasies for the Grizzly release it would start something like:
>
> A. Grizzly Summit
>
> B. From the summit the Tech Committee & PTL have community consensus
> on the overarching goal for the release and the projects' goals.
> Articulated online in user friendly manner.
>
> C. Webinar / OpenStack User Groups get a presentation on the release
> goals, and channels for input and participation.
>
> D. About the half way point in release schedule, development adjusts
> the online communication to reflect reality, presents an update, and
> again channels for input and participation.
>
>
> How do things work today? I haven't found much in the wiki.
>
>
> Thanks,
> --
> @lloyddewolf
> http://www.pistoncloud.com/
>
>
> --
> --
> @lloyddewolf
> http://www.pistoncloud.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

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vishvananda at gmail

Jul 27, 2012, 10:38 AM

Post #4 of 8 (189 views)
Permalink
Re: User Friendly Development -was- Fwd: [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom [In reply to]

On Jul 27, 2012, at 10:18 AM, Mark Collier wrote:

> I do wonder if it would make sense to gather user feedback and goals before the summit, like the day (or week) before, to help provide some priorities (from their perspective) to consider going into the summit.

This does seem valuable, although keep in mind that most users are a release behind, so the majority of their feedback will hopefully have been handled already :)

Vish


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Tim.Bell at cern

Jul 27, 2012, 10:57 AM

Post #5 of 8 (190 views)
Permalink
Re: User Friendly Development [In reply to]

I worry that if the users meet just a day before the conference, we cannot consolidate the input. Having the time to work out that a large share of the users are blocked on a specific problem is an important input to the conference. A single user may have specific problems to be addressed but if these are shared by many others, the community needs to listen.

There is also a clarification required of what a 'user' is cloud partners are both users and developers . many people involved in the community have different hats with more/less engineering resource and more/less production deployment experience.

I'm happy to help to consolidate the current pain points. We should gather the data for both Diablo and Essex based deployments and it may well be that many of them are addressed in Folsom (but we should check to be sure).

Tim Bell
CERN

On 27 Jul 2012, at 19:38, Vishvananda Ishaya wrote:

>
> On Jul 27, 2012, at 10:18 AM, Mark Collier wrote:
>
>> I do wonder if it would make sense to gather user feedback and goals before the summit, like the day (or week) before, to help provide some priorities (from their perspective) to consider going into the summit.
>
> This does seem valuable, although keep in mind that most users are a release behind, so the majority of their feedback will hopefully have been handled already :)
>
> Vish
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


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rlane at wikimedia

Jul 27, 2012, 11:18 AM

Post #6 of 8 (190 views)
Permalink
Re: User Friendly Development -was- Fwd: [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom [In reply to]

>> I do wonder if it would make sense to gather user feedback and goals before the summit, like the day (or week) before, to help provide some priorities (from their perspective) to consider going into the summit.
>
> This does seem valuable, although keep in mind that most users are a release behind, so the majority of their feedback will hopefully have been handled already :)
>

Unfortunately not. Every release I run into a ton of problems, patch
them locally, then push them upstream so that I won't hit the same
issue next release. I just went through this with the essex version of
keystone. Another example is that keystone's auth model is
fundamentally different from what was in nova, and completely breaks
my use case (which is likely a pretty normal use case for private
clouds). I haven't fully tested nova or glance for upgrade, so I'm
sure I'll be pushing in fixes for that too.

It would have been ideal for me to give this feedback during the
development cycle, but it's pretty difficult managing a product launch
and keeping up with the design and testing of software that's in
development (especially when it undergoes a nearly complete rewrite at
the end of the dev cycle). I feel that many end-users are in a similar
position.

Users definitely need a better mechanism to give feedback early, and
to have their current production issues handled. The start of the
design summit is good, but it would also be nice to collect feedback
after the summit as well.

- Ryan

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stefano at openstack

Jul 27, 2012, 12:44 PM

Post #7 of 8 (191 views)
Permalink
Re: User Friendly Development -was- Fwd: [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom [In reply to]

On 07/27/2012 11:18 AM, Ryan Lane wrote:
> Users definitely need a better mechanism to give feedback early, and
> to have their current production issues handled. The start of the
> design summit is good, but it would also be nice to collect feedback
> after the summit as well.

Do you think you can find such data in the bug reports (at least
partially)? I have finally a tool in place that takes data about bugs
from launchpad and puts it in a database [the schema is in the wiki] and
I'd love to put it to use.

Wwhat sort of data would you look for in there?

/stef

http://wiki.openstack.org/CommunityMetrics/Bugs?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=database_schema.png


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Atul.Jha at csscorp

Jul 27, 2012, 2:19 PM

Post #8 of 8 (198 views)
Permalink
Re: User Friendly Development -was- Fwd: [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom [In reply to]

Hi,
________________________________________
From: openstack-bounces+atul.jha=csscorp.com [at] lists [openstack-bounces+atul.jha=csscorp.com [at] lists] on behalf of Mark Collier [mark.collier [at] rackspace]
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 10:48 PM
To: Lloyd Dewolf
Cc: OpenStack Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Openstack] User Friendly Development -was- Fwd: [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom
<snip>
I think these are some very thoughtful ideas on how to ensure users are influencing the roadmap (among other goals).

+1

I do wonder if it would make sense to gather user feedback and goals before the summit, like the day (or week) before, to help provide some priorities (from their perspective) to consider going into the summit.
+1

Maybe it's an online meeting/webinar (meeting burner is a nice hybrid) led by the user committee and a meetup Sunday night before the summit kicks off to review. Then we throw the top 5 priorities up on the screens in every summit session as a reminder.
+1

These are just a few ideas, I'm sure as the user committee forms they will take the ones that make sense.
+1


@lloyd

Count me in with the help you need on the same.


On Jul 26, 2012, at 5:43 PM, "Lloyd Dewolf" <lloydostack [at] gmail> wrote:

> Oops, I meant to fork the thread.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Lloyd Dewolf <lloydostack [at] gmail>
> Date: Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 1:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Openstack] [nova] [cinder] Nova-volume vs. Cinder in Folsom
> To: openstack [at] lists
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack> wrote:
>>
>> Using the "user committee" setup, you don't really need to take
>> authority away from the PTL. You increase the influence of the "users"
>> on technical decisions. You just provide a clear and official mechanism
>> to represent the interests of "the users" as a whole. Once you have
>> that, if the PTL or technical committee decides to ignore it, it's a
>> rather strong decision that better has to be well justified. Its better
>> than having some arbitrary percentage of "users" in a single committee
>> and then have most decisions won by the most largely represented party.
>>
>> If the user committee is an active and respected group, it provides nice
>> checks and balances against developers living in developer bubbles. Most
>> issues we have right now with deployer-friendliness are linked to the
>> fact that "the users" don't have a clear or official voice.
>>
>> The trick is, of course, to manage to set up such a committee in a way
>> that represents all the users and deployers. It will be all the more
>> influential if it is seen as representing all the users, rather than
>> just a loosely-tied pre-determined subset of large users.
>
> I generally agree with your thoughts around a "user committee".
>
>
> For my benefit, I'd love to get a feel for what we're doing to make
> development user friendly?
>
>
> In my fantasies for the Grizzly release it would start something like:
>
> A. Grizzly Summit
>
> B. From the summit the Tech Committee & PTL have community consensus
> on the overarching goal for the release and the projects' goals.
> Articulated online in user friendly manner.
>
> C. Webinar / OpenStack User Groups get a presentation on the release
> goals, and channels for input and participation.
>
> D. About the half way point in release schedule, development adjusts
> the online communication to reflect reality, presents an update, and
> again channels for input and participation.
>
>
> How do things work today? I haven't found much in the wiki.
>
>
> Thanks,
> --
> @lloyddewolf
> http://www.pistoncloud.com/
>
>
> --
> --
> @lloyddewolf
> http://www.pistoncloud.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Cheers!!

Atul Jha (koolhead17)

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http://www.csscorp.com/common/email-disclaimer.php

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