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i18n of log message

 

 

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ppyy at pubyun

Apr 30, 2012, 7:38 PM

Post #1 of 17 (1126 views)
Permalink
i18n of log message

the log messages of OpenStack are i18n now.

i propose to use english only log messages:

1. if any one have problem, they can shared with others more easy.
he can search english message, and send message to maillist.
if the log message is i18n, a Chinese version message can't shared to
Japanese.

2. if we have i18n log message, it's hard to update log message. we should
update every localization version of message.


--
彭勇 (Peng Yong)


shake.chen at gmail

Apr 30, 2012, 9:04 PM

Post #2 of 17 (1138 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

I agree with you.



On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:38 AM, 彭勇 <ppyy [at] pubyun> wrote:

> the log messages of OpenStack are i18n now.
>
> i propose to use english only log messages:
>
> 1. if any one have problem, they can shared with others more easy.
> he can search english message, and send message to maillist.
> if the log message is i18n, a Chinese version message can't shared to
> Japanese.
>
> 2. if we have i18n log message, it's hard to update log message. we should
> update every localization version of message.
>
>
> --
> 彭勇 (Peng Yong)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>


--
Shake Chen


andrew at linuxjedi

May 1, 2012, 1:31 AM

Post #3 of 17 (1132 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

Hi 彭勇,

On 01/05/12 03:38, 彭勇 wrote:
> the log messages of OpenStack are i18n now.
>
> i propose to use english only log messages:
>
> 1. if any one have problem, they can shared with others more easy.
> he can search english message, and send message to maillist.
> if the log message is i18n, a Chinese version message can't shared to
> Japanese.
>
> 2. if we have i18n log message, it's hard to update log message. we
> should update every localization version of message.

This was all actually covered in the i18n talk at the developer's summit:

http://etherpad.openstack.org/FolsomI18N

The information in there says "mailing list says no, feedback from
session says yes (especially requested by operators in china) - need a
vote? compare to apache projects..."

I do also remember a suggestion of translated error messages and a
common error code (such as NOV1234 I guess?) to use in places such as a
Google search (such as MySQL does). You could then search for the
translated error message or the code if you feel your language skills
are good enough to get multi-lingual results.

Since we are going to be reworking i18n very soon I suspect feedback
would be welcome.

Kind Regards
--
Andrew Hutchings - LinuxJedi - http://www.linuxjedi.co.uk/

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


ppyy at pubyun

May 1, 2012, 1:46 AM

Post #4 of 17 (1134 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

2012/5/1 Andrew Hutchings <andrew [at] linuxjedi>
>
> Hi 彭勇,
>
> On 01/05/12 03:38, 彭勇 wrote:
> > the log messages of OpenStack are i18n now.
> >
> > i propose to use english only log messages:
> >
> > 1. if any one have problem, they can shared with others more easy.
> > he can search english message, and send message to maillist.
> > if the log message is i18n, a Chinese version message can't shared to
> > Japanese.
> >
> > 2. if we have i18n log message, it's hard to update log message. we
> > should update every localization version of message.
>
> This was all actually covered in the i18n talk at the developer's summit:
>
> http://etherpad.openstack.org/FolsomI18N
>
> The information in there says "mailing list says no, feedback from
> session says yes (especially requested by operators in china) - need a
> vote? compare to apache projects..."


we are guys in China. we have a openstack group more than 500 members.

we can promote a vote for this

>
>
> I do also remember a suggestion of translated error messages and a
> common error code (such as NOV1234 I guess?) to use in places such as a
> Google search (such as MySQL does).  You could then search for the
> translated error message or the code if you feel your language skills
> are good enough to get multi-lingual results.


Oracle handle error message this way, for example:

ORA-01000: maximum open cursors exceeded

it's hard to maintain multi-lingual log message for open source project.


>
>
> Since we are going to be reworking i18n very soon I suspect feedback
> would be welcome.
>
> Kind Regards
> --
> Andrew Hutchings - LinuxJedi - http://www.linuxjedi.co.uk/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to     : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp




--
彭勇 (Peng Yong)

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


Tim.Bell at cern

May 1, 2012, 2:22 AM

Post #5 of 17 (1130 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

I would also vote for an application prefix and error number for easy searching. It is also great when you have to write the problem determination guides.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: openstack-bounces+tim.bell=cern.ch [at] lists [mailto:openstack-bounces+tim.bell=cern.ch [at] lists] On Behalf Of ??
Sent: 01 May 2012 10:47
To: Andrew Hutchings
Cc: openstack [at] lists
Subject: Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message

2012/5/1 Andrew Hutchings <andrew [at] linuxjedi>
>
> Hi 彭勇,
>
> On 01/05/12 03:38, 彭勇 wrote:
> > the log messages of OpenStack are i18n now.
> >
> > i propose to use english only log messages:
> >
> > 1. if any one have problem, they can shared with others more easy.
> > he can search english message, and send message to maillist.
> > if the log message is i18n, a Chinese version message can't shared
> > to Japanese.
> >
> > 2. if we have i18n log message, it's hard to update log message. we
> > should update every localization version of message.
>
> This was all actually covered in the i18n talk at the developer's summit:
>
> http://etherpad.openstack.org/FolsomI18N
>
> The information in there says "mailing list says no, feedback from
> session says yes (especially requested by operators in china) - need a
> vote? compare to apache projects..."


we are guys in China. we have a openstack group more than 500 members.

we can promote a vote for this

>
>
> I do also remember a suggestion of translated error messages and a
> common error code (such as NOV1234 I guess?) to use in places such as
> a Google search (such as MySQL does).  You could then search for the
> translated error message or the code if you feel your language skills
> are good enough to get multi-lingual results.


Oracle handle error message this way, for example:

ORA-01000: maximum open cursors exceeded

it's hard to maintain multi-lingual log message for open source project.


>
>
> Since we are going to be reworking i18n very soon I suspect feedback
> would be welcome.
>
> Kind Regards
> --
> Andrew Hutchings - LinuxJedi - http://www.linuxjedi.co.uk/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to     :
> openstack [at] lists Unsubscribe :
> https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help   :
> https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp




--
彭勇 (Peng Yong)

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


zhuadl at cn

May 1, 2012, 7:16 PM

Post #6 of 17 (1122 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

If you want to use English message, it is easy to get it by setting your
language preferece or Language environment variable in you operating
system.
I18N doesn't prevent you to share anything with others, but provide you an
option in native language that you preferred. It totally depends on your
choice. :-)

Best Regards,


Edward Zhang(Ż) ַ:к·8 йش
Staff Software Engineer ԰28¥ 3 ʱࣺ100193
Travel&Transportation Standards Address: 3F Ring, Building 28
Emerging Technology Institute(ETI) Zhongguancun Software Park, 8
IBM China Software Development Lab Dongbeiwang West Road, Haidian
e-mail: zhuadl [at] cn District, Beijing, P.R.C.100193
Notes ID: Hua ZZ Zhang/China/IBM
Tel: 86-10-82450483














<ppyy [at] pubyun>
Sent by: To
openstack-bounces openstack [at] lists
+zhuadl=cn.ibm.co cc
m [at] lists
.net Subject
[Openstack] i18n of log message

2012-05-01 10:38








the log messages of OpenStack are i18n now.

i propose to use english only log messages:

1. if any one have problem, they can shared with others more easy.
he can search english message, and send message to maillist.
if the log message is i18n, a Chinese version message can't shared to
Japanese.

2. if we have i18n log message, it's hard to update log message. we should
update every localization version of message.


--
(Peng Yong)
_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
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thierry at openstack

May 2, 2012, 4:59 AM

Post #7 of 17 (1118 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

Andrew Hutchings wrote:
> This was all actually covered in the i18n talk at the developer's summit:
>
> http://etherpad.openstack.org/FolsomI18N
>
> The information in there says "mailing list says no, feedback from
> session says yes (especially requested by operators in china) - need a
> vote? compare to apache projects..."

Right.... It was suggested that we do English-only rather than doing a
bad job at supporting full I18N. People present in the session raised
the specific issue of Chinese operators not being fluent in English, and
Vincent (CC-ed) presented a strong case on the mailing-list in a recent
thread.

The four options were:

0. Only English
1. Horizon being I18N as the user-friendly web interface to OpenStack
2. All API-user-facing messages should be fully I18N
3. Everything (including log messages) should be I18N, introduce error
codes to enable cross-language searching

The result of the discussion was that the most likely options were (1)
and (3) (option 3 being not significantly more work than option 2). An
I18N advocacy group would be formed to encourage and push option (3)
towards completion.

That said, the attendance at that Design Summit session clearly does not
represent our whole international user community, so I'm happy to extend
the discussion on the ML again. In particular I'm not convinced that
OpenStack needs to do a significantly better job at I18N than other
significant infrastructure open source software, most of which would
limit themselves to option (1) above.

彭勇 wrote:
>
> we are guys in China. we have a openstack group more than 500 members.
> we can promote a vote for this

Some indication on how actually necessary this is for Chinese operators
would definitely help in motivating the extra work needed on this :)

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


guoyingc at cn

May 7, 2012, 12:40 AM

Post #8 of 17 (1101 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

I will vote option 3, because I think API-user-facing messages is as
important as
user interface messages. Since the workload of option 3 is not much more
than option 2,
option 3 will be a better choice.

btw, I see documentation, e.g. OpenStack manuals, is excluded in these four
options.
Does that mean there is no comments against the globalization of
documentation?

Regards
Daisy

openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists wrote on
05/02/2012 07:59:11 PM:

> Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack>
> Sent by: openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists
>
> 05/02/2012 07:59 PM
>
> To
>
> openstack [at] lists,
>
> cc
>
> Subject
>
> Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message
>
> Andrew Hutchings wrote:
> > This was all actually covered in the i18n talk at the developer's
summit:
> >
> > http://etherpad.openstack.org/FolsomI18N
> >
> > The information in there says "mailing list says no, feedback from
> > session says yes (especially requested by operators in china) - need a
> > vote? compare to apache projects..."
>
> Right.... It was suggested that we do English-only rather than doing a
> bad job at supporting full I18N. People present in the session raised
> the specific issue of Chinese operators not being fluent in English, and
> Vincent (CC-ed) presented a strong case on the mailing-list in a recent
> thread.
>
> The four options were:
>
> 0. Only English
> 1. Horizon being I18N as the user-friendly web interface to OpenStack
> 2. All API-user-facing messages should be fully I18N
> 3. Everything (including log messages) should be I18N, introduce error
> codes to enable cross-language searching
>
> The result of the discussion was that the most likely options were (1)
> and (3) (option 3 being not significantly more work than option 2). An
> I18N advocacy group would be formed to encourage and push option (3)
> towards completion.
>
> That said, the attendance at that Design Summit session clearly does not
> represent our whole international user community, so I'm happy to extend
> the discussion on the ML again. In particular I'm not convinced that
> OpenStack needs to do a significantly better job at I18N than other
> significant infrastructure open source software, most of which would
> limit themselves to option (1) above.
>
> $BWEM&(B wrote:
> >
> > we are guys in China. we have a openstack group more than 500 members.
> > we can promote a vote for this
>
> Some indication on how actually necessary this is for Chinese operators
> would definitely help in motivating the extra work needed on this :)
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> Release Manager, OpenStack
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


acs at parvuscaptus

May 7, 2012, 7:53 AM

Post #9 of 17 (1111 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

I would vote for 0 or 1 on the cost versus benefit. Option 0 is the least
overhead, but option 1 would be nice for a lot of reasons.

The downside to i18n of the logs and errors in the dilution of information
available to find solutions can be higher than the benefit of providing
messages in a native language.

The level of effort is certainly much much higher to provide option 3.

I'd vote for effort to go to improving the OpenStack core technology and
features over something that adds a lot of overhead and also some downside.


On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 3:40 AM, Ying Chun Guo <guoyingc [at] cn> wrote:

> I will vote option 3, because I think API-user-facing messages is as
> important as
> user interface messages. Since the workload of option 3 is not much more
> than option 2,
> option 3 will be a better choice.
>
> btw, I see documentation, e.g. OpenStack manuals, is excluded in these
> four options.
> Does that mean there is no comments against the globalization of
> documentation?
>
> Regards
> Daisy
>
>


harlowja at yahoo-inc

May 7, 2012, 10:46 AM

Post #10 of 17 (1100 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

I think option 1 is needed, for obvious reasons.

API facing messages, not so sure about that, I would say english for those, since they are meant for people interacting with an API and not front-end users.

I would think this would be pretty easily solvable by basically following what other open source projects already do. It would be useful possibly to have a survey of other projects and just follow the same pattern??

On 5/7/12 7:53 AM, "Andrew Clay Shafer" <acs [at] parvuscaptus> wrote:


I would vote for 0 or 1 on the cost versus benefit. Option 0 is the least overhead, but option 1 would be nice for a lot of reasons.

The downside to i18n of the logs and errors in the dilution of information available to find solutions can be higher than the benefit of providing messages in a native language.

The level of effort is certainly much much higher to provide option 3.

I'd vote for effort to go to improving the OpenStack core technology and features over something that adds a lot of overhead and also some downside.


On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 3:40 AM, Ying Chun Guo <guoyingc [at] cn> wrote:
I will vote option 3, because I think API-user-facing messages is as important as
user interface messages. Since the workload of option 3 is not much more than option 2,
option 3 will be a better choice.

btw, I see documentation, e.g. OpenStack manuals, is excluded in these four options.
Does that mean there is no comments against the globalization of documentation?

Regards
Daisy


guoyingc at cn

May 7, 2012, 7:45 PM

Post #11 of 17 (1099 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

"API facing messages", I will call it user-facing API messages, which
means, these API is provided for users to invoke,
these messages will be used for the interaction with users. For example
Glance and Keystone provide command line for
users to operate, these command line will invoke user-facing APIs. The
output of these user-facing APIs will displayed in the
console.

These command lines can also be called "user interface", i.e. command line
interfaces, while Horizon is web user interfaces.
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface). The importance of
command line interface and web user interface are same.
If we want to translate Horizon, we should also translate those user-facing
APIs message.

So I prefer option 2. As it is said that option 3 being not significantly
more work than option 2, so option 3 is also acceptable for me.

Regards
Daisy

Joshua Harlow <harlowja [at] yahoo-inc> wrote on 05/08/2012 01:46:32 AM:

> Joshua Harlow <harlowja [at] yahoo-inc>
> 05/08/2012 01:46 AM
>
> To
>
> Andrew Clay Shafer <acs [at] parvuscaptus>, Ying Chun Guo/China/IBM [at] IBMC,
>
> cc
>
> Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack>, openstack
> <openstack [at] lists>
>
> Subject
>
> Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message
>
> I think option 1 is needed, for obvious reasons.
>
> API facing messages, not so sure about that, I would say english for
> those, since they are meant for people interacting with an API and
> not front-end users.
>
> I would think this would be pretty easily solvable by basically
> following what other open source projects already do. It would be
> useful possibly to have a survey of other projects and just follow
> the same pattern??
>
> On 5/7/12 7:53 AM, "Andrew Clay Shafer" <acs [at] parvuscaptus> wrote:

>
> I would vote for 0 or 1 on the cost versus benefit. Option 0 is the
> least overhead, but option 1 would be nice for a lot of reasons.
>
> The downside to i18n of the logs and errors in the dilution of
> information available to find solutions can be higher than the
> benefit of providing messages in a native language.
>
> The level of effort is certainly much much higher to provide option 3.
>
> I'd vote for effort to go to improving the OpenStack core technology
> and features over something that adds a lot of overhead and also
> some downside.
>
>
> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 3:40 AM, Ying Chun Guo <guoyingc [at] cn>
wrote:
> I will vote option 3, because I think API-user-facing messages is as
> important as
> user interface messages. Since the workload of option 3 is not much
> more than option 2,
> option 3 will be a better choice.
>
> btw, I see documentation, e.g. OpenStack manuals, is excluded in
> these four options.
> Does that mean there is no comments against the globalization of
> documentation?
>
> Regards
> Daisy


thierry at openstack

May 8, 2012, 9:55 AM

Post #12 of 17 (1095 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

Ying Chun Guo wrote:
> [...]
> So I prefer option 2. As it is said that option 3 being not
> significantly more work than option 2, so option 3 is also acceptable
> for me.

So there is no strong consensus so far :) One important prerequisite of
whatever solution we end up choosing is that it should be the same level
across all OpenStack core projects. Consistency is important... So we
should definitely ask PTLs which options they are ready to support, as
it may seriously reduce our options.

We should also have a I18N advocacy czar that will push whatever option
is chosen to completion by documenting the process, encouraging CI /
translators / devs to do any needed work. Anyone up to it ?

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


guoyingc at cn

May 10, 2012, 2:33 AM

Post #13 of 17 (1066 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

I18N is an architecture decision. Besides developers, we should also
consult customers' options.

I18N is a very big scope. It includes not only translation, but also
Date/time format, number format,
or even the input of non-English characters. Surely I18N will take some
efforts. But considering
OpenStack may have a long history, it deserve us to pay some time to work
on it. We need to consider
it carefully. Maybe we can just pick out several very popular
locales/languages and work on these localization
firstly. It will ensure we have a correct architecture to suppor I18N, with
a not very big effort.

I'd like to help on the process documenting.

Regards
Daisy

openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists wrote on
05/09/2012 12:55:48 AM:

> Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack>
> Sent by: openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists
>
> 05/09/2012 12:55 AM
>
> To
>
> openstack [at] lists,
>
> cc
>
> Subject
>
> Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message
>
> Ying Chun Guo wrote:
> > [...]
> > So I prefer option 2. As it is said that option 3 being not
> > significantly more work than option 2, so option 3 is also acceptable
> > for me.
>
> So there is no strong consensus so far :) One important prerequisite of
> whatever solution we end up choosing is that it should be the same level
> across all OpenStack core projects. Consistency is important... So we
> should definitely ask PTLs which options they are ready to support, as
> it may seriously reduce our options.
>
> We should also have a I18N advocacy czar that will push whatever option
> is chosen to completion by documenting the process, encouraging CI /
> translators / devs to do any needed work. Anyone up to it ?
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> Release Manager, OpenStack
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>


ppyy at pubyun

May 10, 2012, 7:46 AM

Post #14 of 17 (1070 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

we are here talking about I18N of log information

i prefer to English only log:

1. easy to search and share

2. easy to maintain

2012/5/10 Ying Chun Guo <guoyingc [at] cn>:
> I18N is an architecture decision. Besides developers, we should also consult
> customers' options.
>
> I18N is a very big scope. It includes not only translation, but also
> Date/time format, number format,
> or even the input of non-English characters. Surely I18N will take some
> efforts. But considering
> OpenStack may have a long history, it deserve us to pay some time to work on
> it. We need to consider
> it carefully. Maybe we can just pick out several very popular
> locales/languages and work on these localization
> firstly. It will ensure we have a correct architecture to suppor I18N, with
> a not very big effort.
>
> I'd like to help on the process documenting.
>
> Regards
> Daisy
>
> openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists wrote on
> 05/09/2012 12:55:48 AM:
>
>> Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack>
>> Sent by: openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists
>>
>> 05/09/2012 12:55 AM
>>
>> To
>>
>> openstack [at] lists,
>>
>> cc
>
>
>>
>> Subject
>>
>> Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message
>>
>> Ying Chun Guo wrote:
>> > [...]
>> > So I prefer option 2. As it is said that   option 3 being not
>> > significantly more work than option 2, so option 3 is also acceptable
>> > for me.
>>
>> So there is no strong consensus so far :) One important prerequisite of
>> whatever solution we end up choosing is that it should be the same level
>> across all OpenStack core projects. Consistency is important... So we
>> should definitely ask PTLs which options they are ready to support, as
>> it may seriously reduce our options.
>>
>> We should also have a I18N advocacy czar that will push whatever option
>> is chosen to completion by documenting the process, encouraging CI /
>> translators / devs to do any needed work. Anyone up to it ?
>>
>> --
>> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>> Release Manager, OpenStack
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> Post to     : openstack [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to     : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>



--
彭勇 (Peng Yong)
常州贝特康姆(BitComm)软件技术有限公司
地址:常州市科教城信息产业园南4楼
电话:+86.519.68887168
传真:+86.519.68887169
手机:+86.18915883399
邮箱:ppyy [at] pubyun

_______________________________________________
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Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


zhuadl at cn

May 10, 2012, 5:05 PM

Post #15 of 17 (1075 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

+1

From the perspective of developer and English user, totally agree with you
to keep it simple. But OpenStack is an BIG community includes lots of
countries and users, we should also consider their requirements and
opinions. To mature this platform and community, it is really important.




彭勇
<ppyy [at] pubyun>
Sent by: To
openstack-bounces Ying Chun Guo/China/IBM [at] IBMC,
+zhuadl=cn.ibm.co cc
m [at] lists Thierry Carrez
.net <thierry [at] openstack>,
openstack [at] lists
Subject
2012-05-10 下午 Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message
10:46









we are here talking about I18N of log information

i prefer to English only log:

1. easy to search and share

2. easy to maintain

2012/5/10 Ying Chun Guo <guoyingc [at] cn>:
> I18N is an architecture decision. Besides developers, we should also
consult
> customers' options.
>
> I18N is a very big scope. It includes not only translation, but also
> Date/time format, number format,
> or even the input of non-English characters. Surely I18N will take some
> efforts. But considering
> OpenStack may have a long history, it deserve us to pay some time to work
on
> it. We need to consider
> it carefully. Maybe we can just pick out several very popular
> locales/languages and work on these localization
> firstly. It will ensure we have a correct architecture to suppor I18N,
with
> a not very big effort.
>
> I'd like to help on the process documenting.
>
> Regards
> Daisy
>
> openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists wrote on
> 05/09/2012 12:55:48 AM:
>
>> Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack>
>> Sent by: openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists
>>
>> 05/09/2012 12:55 AM
>>
>> To
>>
>> openstack [at] lists,
>>
>> cc
>
>
>>
>> Subject
>>
>> Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message
>>
>> Ying Chun Guo wrote:
>> > [...]
>> > So I prefer option 2. As it is said that   option 3 being not
>> > significantly more work than option 2, so option 3 is also acceptable
>> > for me.
>>
>> So there is no strong consensus so far :) One important prerequisite of
>> whatever solution we end up choosing is that it should be the same level
>> across all OpenStack core projects. Consistency is important... So we
>> should definitely ask PTLs which options they are ready to support, as
>> it may seriously reduce our options.
>>
>> We should also have a I18N advocacy czar that will push whatever option
>> is chosen to completion by documenting the process, encouraging CI /
>> translators / devs to do any needed work. Anyone up to it ?
>>
>> --
>> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>> Release Manager, OpenStack
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> Post to     : openstack [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to     : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>



--
彭勇 (Peng Yong)
常州贝特康姆(BitComm)软件技术有限公司
地址:常州市科教城信息产业园南4楼
电话:+86.519.68887168
传真:+86.519.68887169
手机:+86.18915883399
邮箱:ppyy [at] pubyun

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Attachments: graycol.gif (0.10 KB)
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Gabriel.Hurley at nebula

May 10, 2012, 6:00 PM

Post #16 of 17 (1114 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

A few key points:


1. I would re-frame the options as “English Only”, “User-Facing Messages”, or “All Strings”. These three categories more accurately cover the purposes of translating different scopes in the application. The key difference being that web interfaces and API/CLI messages are both user-facing, and should be treated similarly.

2. Horizon has already strongly committed to i18n for user-facing messages, and we’re keeping an eye on l10n (localization) as well in the future. Nova also has strong i18n support; as such I’d see “English Only” as a regression and a disservice to the community.

3. With all due consideration of input from the community, this is ultimately going to have to be decided by the PPB since it needs to span all projects and since unanimous community consensus is unlikely.

I, personally, will continue to advocate for translation, internationalization and localization for all user-facing messages; and I’ll do what I can to keep supporting the community in its translation efforts. I’m happy to answer questions as well.

All the best,


- Gabriel

From: openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com [at] lists [mailto:openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com [at] lists] On Behalf Of Hua ZZ Zhang
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:05 PM
To: 彭勇
Cc: openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm.com [at] lists; Thierry Carrez; openstack [at] lists
Subject: Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message


+1

From the perspective of developer and English user, totally agree with you to keep it simple. But OpenStack is an BIG community includes lots of countries and users, we should also consider their requirements and opinions. To mature this platform and community, it is really important.


[Inactive hide details for 彭勇 ---2012-05-10 下午 11:57:19---彭勇 <ppyy [at] pubyun>]彭勇 ---2012-05-10 下午 11:57:19---彭勇 <ppyy [at] pubyun<mailto:ppyy [at] pubyun>>
彭勇 <ppyy [at] pubyun<mailto:ppyy [at] pubyun>>
Sent by: openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm.com [at] lists<mailto:openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm.com [at] lists>

2012-05-10 下午 10:46


To


Ying Chun Guo/China/IBM [at] IBMC,


cc


Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack<mailto:thierry [at] openstack>>, openstack [at] lists<mailto:openstack [at] lists>


Subject


Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message








we are here talking about I18N of log information

i prefer to English only log:

1. easy to search and share

2. easy to maintain

2012/5/10 Ying Chun Guo <guoyingc [at] cn<mailto:guoyingc [at] cn>>:
> I18N is an architecture decision. Besides developers, we should also consult
> customers' options.
>
> I18N is a very big scope. It includes not only translation, but also
> Date/time format, number format,
> or even the input of non-English characters. Surely I18N will take some
> efforts. But considering
> OpenStack may have a long history, it deserve us to pay some time to work on
> it. We need to consider
> it carefully. Maybe we can just pick out several very popular
> locales/languages and work on these localization
> firstly. It will ensure we have a correct architecture to suppor I18N, with
> a not very big effort.
>
> I'd like to help on the process documenting.
>
> Regards
> Daisy
>
> openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists<mailto:openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists> wrote on
> 05/09/2012 12:55:48 AM:
>
>> Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack<mailto:thierry [at] openstack>>
>> Sent by: openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists<mailto:openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists>
>>
>> 05/09/2012 12:55 AM
>>
>> To
>>
>> openstack [at] lists<mailto:openstack [at] lists>,
>>
>> cc
>
>
>>
>> Subject
>>
>> Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message
>>
>> Ying Chun Guo wrote:
>> > [...]
>> > So I prefer option 2. As it is said that option 3 being not
>> > significantly more work than option 2, so option 3 is also acceptable
>> > for me.
>>
>> So there is no strong consensus so far :) One important prerequisite of
>> whatever solution we end up choosing is that it should be the same level
>> across all OpenStack core projects. Consistency is important... So we
>> should definitely ask PTLs which options they are ready to support, as
>> it may seriously reduce our options.
>>
>> We should also have a I18N advocacy czar that will push whatever option
>> is chosen to completion by documenting the process, encouraging CI /
>> translators / devs to do any needed work. Anyone up to it ?
>>
>> --
>> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>> Release Manager, OpenStack
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> Post to : openstack [at] lists<mailto:openstack [at] lists>
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists<mailto:openstack [at] lists>
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>



--
彭勇 (Peng Yong)
常州贝特康姆(BitComm)软件技术有限公司
地址:常州市科教城信息产业园南4楼
电话:+86.519.68887168
传真:+86.519.68887169
手机:+86.18915883399
邮箱:ppyy [at] pubyun<mailto:ppyy [at] pubyun>

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists<mailto:openstack [at] lists>
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Attachments: image001.gif (0.10 KB)
  image003.png (0.16 KB)
  image004.png (0.16 KB)


chrisfer at us

May 10, 2012, 6:43 PM

Post #17 of 17 (1057 views)
Permalink
Re: i18n of log message [In reply to]

+1
Cheers,

Christopher Ferris
IBM Distinguished Engineer, CTO Industry and Cloud Standards
Member, IBM Academy of Technology
IBM Software Group, Standards Strategy
email: chrisfer [at] us
Twitter: christo4ferris
phone: +1 508 234 2986

-----openstack-bounces+chrisfer=us.ibm.com [at] lists wrote: -----To: "openstack [at] lists" <openstack [at] lists>
From: Gabriel Hurley
Sent by: openstack-bounces+chrisfer=us.ibm.com [at] lists
Date: 05/10/2012 09:02PM
Subject: Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message



A few key points:



1. I would re-frame the options as &#8220;English Only&#8221;, &#8220;User-Facing Messages&#8221;, or &#8220;All Strings&#8221;. These three categories more accurately cover the purposes of translating different scopes in the application. The key difference being that web interfaces and API/CLI messages are both user-facing, and should be treated similarly.

2. Horizon has already strongly committed to i18n for user-facing messages, and we&#8217;re keeping an eye on l10n (localization) as well in the future. Nova also has strong i18n support; as such I&#8217;d see &#8220;English Only&#8221; as a regression and a disservice to the community.

3. With all due consideration of input from the community, this is ultimately going to have to be decided by the PPB since it needs to span all projects and since unanimous community consensus is unlikely.



I, personally, will continue to advocate for translation, internationalization and localization for all user-facing messages; and I&#8217;ll do what I can to keep supporting the community in its translation efforts. I&#8217;m happy to answer questions as well.



All the best,



- Gabriel



From: openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com [at] lists [mailto:openstack-bounces+gabriel.hurley=nebula.com [at] lists] On Behalf Of Hua ZZ Zhang
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:05 PM
To: &#24429;&#21191;
Cc: openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm.com [at] lists; Thierry Carrez; openstack [at] lists
Subject: Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message



+1

From the perspective of developer and English user, totally agree with you to keep it simple. But OpenStack is an BIG community includes lots of countries and users, we should also consider their requirements and opinions. To mature this platform and community, it is really important.


&#24429;&#21191; ---2012-05-10 &#19979;&#21320; 11:57:19---&#24429;&#21191; <ppyy [at] pubyun>

&#24429;&#21191; <ppyy [at] pubyun>
Sent by: openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm.com [at] lists

2012-05-10 &#19979;&#21320; 10:46

To




Ying Chun Guo/China/IBM [at] IBMC,

cc




Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack>, openstack [at] lists

Subject




Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message








we are here talking about I18N of log information

i prefer to English only log:

1. easy to search and share

2. easy to maintain

2012/5/10 Ying Chun Guo <guoyingc [at] cn>:
> I18N is an architecture decision. Besides developers, we should also consult
> customers' options.
>
> I18N is a very big scope. It includes not only translation, but also
> Date/time format, number format,
> or even the input of non-English characters. Surely I18N will take some
> efforts. But considering
> OpenStack may have a long history, it deserve us to pay some time to work on
> it. We need to consider
> it carefully. Maybe we can just pick out several very popular
> locales/languages and work on these localization
> firstly. It will ensure we have a correct architecture to suppor I18N, with
> a not very big effort.
>
> I'd like to help on the process documenting.
>
> Regards
> Daisy
>
> openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists wrote on
> 05/09/2012 12:55:48 AM:
>
>> Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack>
>> Sent by: openstack-bounces+guoyingc=cn.ibm.com [at] lists
>>
>> 05/09/2012 12:55 AM
>>
>> To
>>
>> openstack [at] lists,
>>
>> cc
>
>
>>
>> Subject
>>
>> Re: [Openstack] i18n of log message
>>
>> Ying Chun Guo wrote:
>> > [..]
>> > So I prefer option 2. As it is said that option 3 being not
>> > significantly more work than option 2, so option 3 is also acceptable
>> > for me.
>>
>> So there is no strong consensus so far :) One important prerequisite of
>> whatever solution we end up choosing is that it should be the same level
>> across all OpenStack core projects. Consistency is important... So we
>> should definitely ask PTLs which options they are ready to support, as
>> it may seriously reduce our options.
>>
>> We should also have a I18N advocacy czar that will push whatever option
>> is chosen to completion by documenting the process, encouraging CI /
>> translators / devs to do any needed work. Anyone up to it ?
>>
>> --
>> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>> Release Manager, OpenStack
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack"]https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> Post to : openstack [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack"]https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp"]https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack"]https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack"]https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp"]https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>



--
&#24429;&#21191; (Peng Yong)
&#24120;&#24030;&#36125;&#29305;&#24247;&#22982;(BitComm)&#36719;&#20214;&#25216;&#26415;&#26377;&#38480;&#20844;&#21496;
&#22320;&#22336;&#65306;&#24120;&#24030;&#24066;&#31185;&#25945;&#22478;&#20449;&#24687;&#20135;&#19994;&#22253;&#21335;4&#27004;
&#30005;&#35805;&#65306;+86.519.68887168
&#20256;&#30495;&#65306;+86.519.68887169
&#25163;&#26426;&#65306;+86.18915883399
&#37038;&#31665;&#65306;ppyy [at] pubyun

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack"]https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack"]https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp"]https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp _______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack"]https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack"]https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp"]https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
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