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Mailing-list split

 

 

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thierry at openstack

Apr 27, 2012, 3:04 AM

Post #1 of 17 (359 views)
Permalink
Mailing-list split

Hello everyone,

TL;DR summary:
Due to traffic exploding, we will split the current openstack list into
user / usage topics (openstack list) and development / next-version
topics (openstack-dev list).

Long version:

At the "Communication" session at the design summit [1] we looked at the
state of our communication media in general, and mailing-list in
particular [2].

[1]
http://folsomdesignsummit2012.sched.org/event/366accca0fda271fc23e82b9cb5162cc
[2] http://etherpad.openstack.org/FolsomCommunication

The traffic on the openstack [at] lists list doubled in the
last 4 months [3], with more users and deployers asking for information
on OpenStack projects. It becomes difficult for contributors to properly
prioritize their ML reading, and we can no longer have all the
discussions in the same place.

[3] http://openstack.markmail.org/

The proposal is to split between:

1/ Usage, deployment, Essex / current-stable discussions
2/ Development, contribution, Folsom / forward-looking discussions

A new list will be created for (2) and existing contributors will be
asked to subscribe to that new list.

Since we expect to have a more disciplined/focused group in that new
list, we'll define a set of subject prefixes that should be used for
easier client-side/at-a-glance filtering of discussions:

[General] Affects all projects
[Swift] [Nova] [Glance] [Quantum] [Horizon] [Keystone] Project-specific
[Common] openstack-common
[QA] [CI] [Docs] Discussions / Information on specific topics
[...] Add your own here

To keep that list usable, I suggest we aggressively enforce those topics
and redirect inappropriate discussions to the other list when necessary.

To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
SSO), we would definitely consider it.

There was a suggestion during the session of using umbrella/siblings
lists to aggregate content from multiple project-specific sublists. I
reviewed the options and I think it introduces a lot of complexity,
reduces flexibility in adding new topics, so client-side filtering
sounds like a better bet. If most people use subject prefixes
appropriately, keeping it simple is probably the best bet.

We'll let you know when the new list is set up.

Regards,

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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berrange at redhat

Apr 27, 2012, 3:47 AM

Post #2 of 17 (336 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 12:04:34PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
> SSO), we would definitely consider it.

FYI for libvirt mailing lists we are using the GNU project's spam
filter:

https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/ListHelperAntiSpam

Thanks to this we get essentially zero spam on our mailing lists,
with practically no burden on / work required by our list admins.
Jim Meyering (CC'd) set it up for us originally & may have some
recommendations or tips if OpenStack want to make use of it too.

Regards,
Daniel
--
|: http://berrange.com -o- http://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org -o- http://virt-manager.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org -o- http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: http://entangle-photo.org -o- http://live.gnome.org/gtk-vnc :|

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jim at meyering

Apr 27, 2012, 4:11 AM

Post #3 of 17 (337 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 12:04:34PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
>> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
>> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
>> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
>> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
>> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
>> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
>> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
>> SSO), we would definitely consider it.
>
> FYI for libvirt mailing lists we are using the GNU project's spam
> filter:
>
> https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/ListHelperAntiSpam

I think the procedure documented there works fine for gnu projects,
but that something special has to be done for projects hosted elsewhere.
I'll check and get back to you.

> Thanks to this we get essentially zero spam on our mailing lists,
> with practically no burden on / work required by our list admins.
> Jim Meyering (CC'd) set it up for us originally & may have some
> recommendations or tips if OpenStack want to make use of it too.

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mordred at inaugust

Apr 27, 2012, 5:41 AM

Post #4 of 17 (342 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On 04/27/2012 06:11 AM, Jim Meyering wrote:
> Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 12:04:34PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>>> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
>>> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
>>> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
>>> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
>>> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
>>> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
>>> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
>>> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
>>> SSO), we would definitely consider it.
>>
>> FYI for libvirt mailing lists we are using the GNU project's spam
>> filter:
>>
>> https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/ListHelperAntiSpam
>
> I think the procedure documented there works fine for gnu projects,
> but that something special has to be done for projects hosted elsewhere.
> I'll check and get back to you.

Awesome - and thanks. It's entirely possible that our Jim Blair already
knows a decent amount of that, as he set up most of the FSF's mail and
mailing list infrastructure, iirc. BUT - that was several years ago, so
it's also possible something has changed. :)

>> Thanks to this we get essentially zero spam on our mailing lists,
>> with practically no burden on / work required by our list admins.
>> Jim Meyering (CC'd) set it up for us originally & may have some
>> recommendations or tips if OpenStack want to make use of it too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
Post to : openstack [at] lists
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


mordred at inaugust

Apr 27, 2012, 5:46 AM

Post #5 of 17 (344 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

Hey everyone!

On 04/27/2012 05:04 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:

> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
> SSO), we would definitely consider it.

Just to be clear - I definitely think that mailing lists are an
important part of dev infrastructure and would love for this to be a
fully integrated part of all of the rest of our tools. However, the
current set of active infrastructure team members have huge todo lists
at the moment. So the biggest home run from my perspective would be if
someone out there had time or resources and wanted to join us on the
infra team to manage this on our existing resources (turns out we have
plenty of servers for running this, and even a decent amount of
expertise, just missing manpower). The existing team would be more than
happy to be involved, and it would help avoid get-hit-by-a-truck issues.
We're a pretty friendly bunch, I promise.

Any takers? Anybody want to pony up somebody with some bandwidth to
admin a mailman? Respond back here or just find us in #openstack-infra
and we'll get you plugged in and stuff.

Thanks!
Monty

_______________________________________________
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
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Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
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duncan at dreamhost

Apr 27, 2012, 6:44 AM

Post #6 of 17 (338 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred [at] inaugust> wrote:
> Hey everyone!
>
> On 04/27/2012 05:04 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>
>> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
>> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
>> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
>> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
>> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
>> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
>> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
>> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
>> SSO), we would definitely consider it.
>
> Just to be clear - I definitely think that mailing lists are an
> important part of dev infrastructure and would love for this to be a
> fully integrated part of all of the rest of our tools. However, the
> current set of active infrastructure team members have huge todo lists
> at the moment. So the biggest home run from my perspective would be if
> someone out there had time or resources and wanted to join us on the
> infra team to manage this on our existing resources (turns out we have
> plenty of servers for running this, and even a decent amount of
> expertise, just missing manpower). The existing team would be more than
> happy to be involved, and it would help avoid get-hit-by-a-truck issues.
> We're a pretty friendly bunch, I promise.
>
> Any takers? Anybody want to pony up somebody with some bandwidth to
> admin a mailman? Respond back here or just find us in #openstack-infra
> and we'll get you plugged in and stuff.
>
> Thanks!
> Monty

Count me in, Monty.

I've been managing mailman lists for about 12 years now (and,
incidentally, Barry and I are bruthas from anutha mutha), so I'd be
quite comfortable handling those responsibilities. I can couple it
with the python.org SIG mail list that I manage, so there'd be zero
context switching.

d

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mordred at inaugust

Apr 27, 2012, 8:27 AM

Post #7 of 17 (329 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On 04/27/2012 09:44 AM, Duncan McGreggor wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred [at] inaugust> wrote:
>> Hey everyone!
>>
>> On 04/27/2012 05:04 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>>
>>> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
>>> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
>>> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
>>> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
>>> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
>>> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
>>> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
>>> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
>>> SSO), we would definitely consider it.
>>
>> Just to be clear - I definitely think that mailing lists are an
>> important part of dev infrastructure and would love for this to be a
>> fully integrated part of all of the rest of our tools. However, the
>> current set of active infrastructure team members have huge todo lists
>> at the moment. So the biggest home run from my perspective would be if
>> someone out there had time or resources and wanted to join us on the
>> infra team to manage this on our existing resources (turns out we have
>> plenty of servers for running this, and even a decent amount of
>> expertise, just missing manpower). The existing team would be more than
>> happy to be involved, and it would help avoid get-hit-by-a-truck issues.
>> We're a pretty friendly bunch, I promise.
>>
>> Any takers? Anybody want to pony up somebody with some bandwidth to
>> admin a mailman? Respond back here or just find us in #openstack-infra
>> and we'll get you plugged in and stuff.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Monty
>
> Count me in, Monty.
>
> I've been managing mailman lists for about 12 years now (and,
> incidentally, Barry and I are bruthas from anutha mutha), so I'd be
> quite comfortable handling those responsibilities. I can couple it
> with the python.org SIG mail list that I manage, so there'd be zero
> context switching.

You make me very happy! Let's work out the details and stuff...

Check it out - it's like we're, you know, a collaborative community or
something!

_______________________________________________
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duncan at dreamhost

Apr 27, 2012, 8:31 AM

Post #8 of 17 (330 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred [at] inaugust> wrote:
>
>
> On 04/27/2012 09:44 AM, Duncan McGreggor wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred [at] inaugust> wrote:
>>> Hey everyone!
>>>
>>> On 04/27/2012 05:04 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>>>
>>>> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
>>>> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
>>>> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
>>>> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
>>>> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
>>>> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
>>>> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
>>>> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
>>>> SSO), we would definitely consider it.
>>>
>>> Just to be clear - I definitely think that mailing lists are an
>>> important part of dev infrastructure and would love for this to be a
>>> fully integrated part of all of the rest of our tools. However, the
>>> current set of active infrastructure team members have huge todo lists
>>> at the moment. So the biggest home run from my perspective would be if
>>> someone out there had time or resources and wanted to join us on the
>>> infra team to manage this on our existing resources (turns out we have
>>> plenty of servers for running this, and even a decent amount of
>>> expertise, just missing manpower). The existing team would be more than
>>> happy to be involved, and it would help avoid get-hit-by-a-truck issues.
>>> We're a pretty friendly bunch, I promise.
>>>
>>> Any takers? Anybody want to pony up somebody with some bandwidth to
>>> admin a mailman? Respond back here or just find us in #openstack-infra
>>> and we'll get you plugged in and stuff.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Monty
>>
>> Count me in, Monty.
>>
>> I've been managing mailman lists for about 12 years now (and,
>> incidentally, Barry and I are bruthas from anutha mutha), so I'd be
>> quite comfortable handling those responsibilities. I can couple it
>> with the python.org SIG mail list that I manage, so there'd be zero
>> context switching.
>
> You make me very happy! Let's work out the details and stuff...

Right on.

> Check it out - it's like we're, you know, a collaborative community or
> something!

:-D

d

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stefano at openstack

Apr 27, 2012, 9:33 AM

Post #9 of 17 (325 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On 04/27/2012 08:27 AM, Monty Taylor wrote:
> You make me very happy! Let's work out the details and stuff...
>
> Check it out - it's like we're, you know, a collaborative community or
> something!

Amen!

Thank you Duncan.

Cheers,
stef

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everett.toews at cybera

Apr 27, 2012, 12:52 PM

Post #10 of 17 (322 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

I like this idea but what happens to the openstack-operators list in this
scenario?

I don't think we'd want to have the openstack and openstack-operators list
going along in parallel since it sounds like they would overlap. I propose
that the members of the openstack-operators list would be (automatically or
manually) migrated to the openstack list. Then the openstack-operators list
would be set to read-only or maybe even removed completely to avoid
confusion.

Comments? Feedback?

Everett

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack>wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> TL;DR summary:
> Due to traffic exploding, we will split the current openstack list into
> user / usage topics (openstack list) and development / next-version
> topics (openstack-dev list).
>
> Long version:
>
> At the "Communication" session at the design summit [1] we looked at the
> state of our communication media in general, and mailing-list in
> particular [2].
>
> [1]
>
> http://folsomdesignsummit2012.sched.org/event/366accca0fda271fc23e82b9cb5162cc
> [2] http://etherpad.openstack.org/FolsomCommunication
>
> The traffic on the openstack [at] lists list doubled in the
> last 4 months [3], with more users and deployers asking for information
> on OpenStack projects. It becomes difficult for contributors to properly
> prioritize their ML reading, and we can no longer have all the
> discussions in the same place.
>
> [3] http://openstack.markmail.org/
>
> The proposal is to split between:
>
> 1/ Usage, deployment, Essex / current-stable discussions
> 2/ Development, contribution, Folsom / forward-looking discussions
>
> A new list will be created for (2) and existing contributors will be
> asked to subscribe to that new list.
>
> Since we expect to have a more disciplined/focused group in that new
> list, we'll define a set of subject prefixes that should be used for
> easier client-side/at-a-glance filtering of discussions:
>
> [General] Affects all projects
> [Swift] [Nova] [Glance] [Quantum] [Horizon] [Keystone] Project-specific
> [Common] openstack-common
> [QA] [CI] [Docs] Discussions / Information on specific topics
> [...] Add your own here
>
> To keep that list usable, I suggest we aggressively enforce those topics
> and redirect inappropriate discussions to the other list when necessary.
>
> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
> SSO), we would definitely consider it.
>
> There was a suggestion during the session of using umbrella/siblings
> lists to aggregate content from multiple project-specific sublists. I
> reviewed the options and I think it introduces a lot of complexity,
> reduces flexibility in adding new topics, so client-side filtering
> sounds like a better bet. If most people use subject prefixes
> appropriately, keeping it simple is probably the best bet.
>
> We'll let you know when the new list is set up.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> Release Manager, OpenStack
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>


matt at nycresistor

Apr 27, 2012, 2:33 PM

Post #11 of 17 (328 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

Makes sense to me.
On Apr 27, 2012 2:27 PM, "Everett Toews" <everett.toews [at] cybera> wrote:

> I like this idea but what happens to the openstack-operators list in this
> scenario?
>
> I don't think we'd want to have the openstack and openstack-operators list
> going along in parallel since it sounds like they would overlap. I propose
> that the members of the openstack-operators list would be (automatically or
> manually) migrated to the openstack list. Then the openstack-operators list
> would be set to read-only or maybe even removed completely to avoid
> confusion.
>
> Comments? Feedback?
>
> Everett
>
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Thierry Carrez <thierry [at] openstack>wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> TL;DR summary:
>> Due to traffic exploding, we will split the current openstack list into
>> user / usage topics (openstack list) and development / next-version
>> topics (openstack-dev list).
>>
>> Long version:
>>
>> At the "Communication" session at the design summit [1] we looked at the
>> state of our communication media in general, and mailing-list in
>> particular [2].
>>
>> [1]
>>
>> http://folsomdesignsummit2012.sched.org/event/366accca0fda271fc23e82b9cb5162cc
>> [2] http://etherpad.openstack.org/FolsomCommunication
>>
>> The traffic on the openstack [at] lists list doubled in the
>> last 4 months [3], with more users and deployers asking for information
>> on OpenStack projects. It becomes difficult for contributors to properly
>> prioritize their ML reading, and we can no longer have all the
>> discussions in the same place.
>>
>> [3] http://openstack.markmail.org/
>>
>> The proposal is to split between:
>>
>> 1/ Usage, deployment, Essex / current-stable discussions
>> 2/ Development, contribution, Folsom / forward-looking discussions
>>
>> A new list will be created for (2) and existing contributors will be
>> asked to subscribe to that new list.
>>
>> Since we expect to have a more disciplined/focused group in that new
>> list, we'll define a set of subject prefixes that should be used for
>> easier client-side/at-a-glance filtering of discussions:
>>
>> [General] Affects all projects
>> [Swift] [Nova] [Glance] [Quantum] [Horizon] [Keystone] Project-specific
>> [Common] openstack-common
>> [QA] [CI] [Docs] Discussions / Information on specific topics
>> [...] Add your own here
>>
>> To keep that list usable, I suggest we aggressively enforce those topics
>> and redirect inappropriate discussions to the other list when necessary.
>>
>> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
>> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
>> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
>> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
>> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
>> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
>> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
>> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
>> SSO), we would definitely consider it.
>>
>> There was a suggestion during the session of using umbrella/siblings
>> lists to aggregate content from multiple project-specific sublists. I
>> reviewed the options and I think it introduces a lot of complexity,
>> reduces flexibility in adding new topics, so client-side filtering
>> sounds like a better bet. If most people use subject prefixes
>> appropriately, keeping it simple is probably the best bet.
>>
>> We'll let you know when the new list is set up.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> --
>> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>> Release Manager, OpenStack
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> Post to : openstack [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack [at] lists
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>


duncan at dreamhost

Apr 27, 2012, 2:43 PM

Post #12 of 17 (328 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Everett Toews <everett.toews [at] cybera> wrote:
> I like this idea but what happens to the openstack-operators list in this
> scenario?
>
> I don't think we'd want to have the openstack and openstack-operators list
> going along in parallel since it sounds like they would overlap. I propose
> that the members of the openstack-operators list would be (automatically or
> manually) migrated to the openstack list. Then the openstack-operators list
> would be set to read-only or maybe even removed completely to avoid
> confusion.
>
> Comments? Feedback?

Hrm. One of the things that came out of the Design Summit discussions
around DevOps was that the OpenStack "DevOps" sub-community doesn't
really feel like it has a voice. As a result, I'd be loathe to remove
that venue for discussion right now, even if it's only of symbolic
value.

That being said, I propose that something along the following lines
could happen:
* intense dev work, collaboration, etc., happening on openstack-dev@
* general usage of openstack questions by folks who are not code
contributors, but standing up OpenStack itself, happening on
openstack@
* conversations around DevOps in particular (the wide spectrum of
definitions that comprise "DevOps" in various people's minds)
happening in openstack-operators@

In helping jump-start (or re-jump-start) the OpenStack DevOps
community, I'd really like to have a dedicated place for
announcements, questions, etc. Even if we spent some time pointing
folks to more detailed, technical resources.

In hallway conversations at the summit (and in various emails and
phone calls since then), people who consider themselves "DevOps" have
expressed concern over the possibility that the operators list would
go away. They are overwhelmed by the volume of traffic on the
openstack list, and don't have the time to devise a solution for
creating appropriate filters, etc.

That objection may simply go away with the new mail list split.

But if openstack-operators has become a property valuable to community
members, we shouldn't just get rid of it because it doesn't make
logical sense. We should make sure that folks are ready to transition
to another location for their DevOps needs.

And that might take a cycle to sort out...

d

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jim at meyering

Apr 28, 2012, 2:45 PM

Post #13 of 17 (316 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 12:04:34PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
>> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
>> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
>> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
>> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
>> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
>> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
>> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
>> SSO), we would definitely consider it.
>
> FYI for libvirt mailing lists we are using the GNU project's spam
> filter:
>
> https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/ListHelperAntiSpam
>
> Thanks to this we get essentially zero spam on our mailing lists,
> with practically no burden on / work required by our list admins.
> Jim Meyering (CC'd) set it up for us originally & may have some
> recommendations or tips if OpenStack want to make use of it too.

Bob Proulx (one of the guys behind ListHelper) said no problem.
All he needs is the hostname, i.e., what does/will the X-BeenThere:
mail header be? Then you follow the instructions listed at the URL
above for each list, and you'll see virtually no spam, and no
inordinate approval delays, either.

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everett.toews at cybera

Apr 30, 2012, 9:12 AM

Post #14 of 17 (306 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

I'm always an advocate for one less thing. If it makes sense to do so, I
would rather have two things than three. It's simply a matter of less
complexity and less confusion. I'm not convinced we need three lists.

Duncan, you describe the audience for the openstack list as "folks who are
not code contributors, but standing up OpenStack itself". To me that
sounds, at least in part, to be the role of Ops people.

It's strange to me that we would take the existing mailing list
openstack-operators and move the Ops people on it to the openstack list and
repurpose the openstack-operators for DevOps people.

It's even stranger to me that a list devoted to DevOps would exclude the
Ops people, the openstack-operators for DevOps and openstack for Ops split.
One of the major tenants of DevOps is to be inclusive of Ops. I think the
new DevOps community could learn a lot from the kinds of questions that Ops
people are asking about OpenStack. And vice versa, the Ops people could
give input on solutions being worked on by DevOps.

What is your justification for excluding the Ops from DevOps?

And sorry, I don't buy the "don't have the time to devise a solution
for creating appropriate filters" argument. It takes 10 seconds to create a
filter to shunt mailing list traffic to another folder/label away from your
inbox.

To me it seems like you don't want to be on the Dev list and you don't want
to be on the Ops list, you want your own DevOps list. I *applaud* the
re-jump-start of the OpenStack DevOps community but I don't think isolating
yourselves is the way to go.

I agree that it might take a cycle to sort out and I agree that we should
make one small change at the time, measure/evaluate and keep changing as
needed. If one list or the other does not have much traction by the next
Summit, we should consider a merge.

But even before then, please do consider whether or not the DevOps
community really needs its own list.

Everett

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Duncan McGreggor <duncan [at] dreamhost>wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Everett Toews <everett.toews [at] cybera>
> wrote:
> > I like this idea but what happens to the openstack-operators list in this
> > scenario?
> >
> > I don't think we'd want to have the openstack and openstack-operators
> list
> > going along in parallel since it sounds like they would overlap. I
> propose
> > that the members of the openstack-operators list would be (automatically
> or
> > manually) migrated to the openstack list. Then the openstack-operators
> list
> > would be set to read-only or maybe even removed completely to avoid
> > confusion.
> >
> > Comments? Feedback?
>
> Hrm. One of the things that came out of the Design Summit discussions
> around DevOps was that the OpenStack "DevOps" sub-community doesn't
> really feel like it has a voice. As a result, I'd be loathe to remove
> that venue for discussion right now, even if it's only of symbolic
> value.
>
> That being said, I propose that something along the following lines
> could happen:
> * intense dev work, collaboration, etc., happening on openstack-dev@
> * general usage of openstack questions by folks who are not code
> contributors, but standing up OpenStack itself, happening on
> openstack@
> * conversations around DevOps in particular (the wide spectrum of
> definitions that comprise "DevOps" in various people's minds)
> happening in openstack-operators@
>
> In helping jump-start (or re-jump-start) the OpenStack DevOps
> community, I'd really like to have a dedicated place for
> announcements, questions, etc. Even if we spent some time pointing
> folks to more detailed, technical resources.
>
> In hallway conversations at the summit (and in various emails and
> phone calls since then), people who consider themselves "DevOps" have
> expressed concern over the possibility that the operators list would
> go away. They are overwhelmed by the volume of traffic on the
> openstack list, and don't have the time to devise a solution for
> creating appropriate filters, etc.
>
> That objection may simply go away with the new mail list split.
>
> But if openstack-operators has become a property valuable to community
> members, we shouldn't just get rid of it because it doesn't make
> logical sense. We should make sure that folks are ready to transition
> to another location for their DevOps needs.
>
> And that might take a cycle to sort out...
>
> d
>


Jan.van.Eldik at cern

May 1, 2012, 1:13 PM

Post #15 of 17 (297 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On 04/27/2012 11:33 PM, Matt Joyce wrote:
> Makes sense to me.

To me as well.

cheers, Jan

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duncan at dreamhost

May 11, 2012, 1:12 PM

Post #16 of 17 (241 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Duncan McGreggor <duncan [at] dreamhost> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred [at] inaugust> wrote:
>> Hey everyone!
>>
>> On 04/27/2012 05:04 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>>
>>> To avoid Launchpad list slowness, we would run the new openstack-dev
>>> list off lists.openstack.org. Given the potential hassle of dealing with
>>> spam and delivery issues on mission-critical MLs, we are looking into
>>> the possibility of outsourcing the maintenance of lists.openstack.org to
>>> a group with established expertise running mailman instances. Please let
>>> us know ASAP if you could offer such services. We are not married to
>>> mailman either -- if an alternative service offers good performance and
>>> better integration (like OpenID-based subscription to integrate with our
>>> SSO), we would definitely consider it.
>>
>> Just to be clear - I definitely think that mailing lists are an
>> important part of dev infrastructure and would love for this to be a
>> fully integrated part of all of the rest of our tools. However, the
>> current set of active infrastructure team members have huge todo lists
>> at the moment. So the biggest home run from my perspective would be if
>> someone out there had time or resources and wanted to join us on the
>> infra team to manage this on our existing resources (turns out we have
>> plenty of servers for running this, and even a decent amount of
>> expertise, just missing manpower). The existing team would be more than
>> happy to be involved, and it would help avoid get-hit-by-a-truck issues.
>> We're a pretty friendly bunch, I promise.
>>
>> Any takers? Anybody want to pony up somebody with some bandwidth to
>> admin a mailman? Respond back here or just find us in #openstack-infra
>> and we'll get you plugged in and stuff.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Monty
>
> Count me in, Monty.
>
> I've been managing mailman lists for about 12 years now (and,
> incidentally, Barry and I are bruthas from anutha mutha), so I'd be
> quite comfortable handling those responsibilities. I can couple it
> with the python.org SIG mail list that I manage, so there'd be zero
> context switching.
>
> d

Hey folks, quick update for ya...

Here are some Etherpads for this effort:
* http://etherpad.openstack.org/openstack-dev-ml-prefixes
* http://etherpad.openstack.org/lists-changes
* http://etherpad.openstack.org/mailmain-install-and-notes
* http://etherpad.openstack.org/mailmain-migration-notes

Mailman is installed, with the site-wide "mailman" list set up.

James Blair has been working on the Exim set up, and I'll be following
up on his changes when I get some time this weekend.

It would be great to migrate our old mail list data:
* from the old host to the new one
* from LP archives (don't know if that's possible)

Some of us know folks who maintain launchpad (and mailman, for that
matter), so we'll be reaching out to folks at Canonical to see what we
can do here.

James Blair also has a good plan for DNS, setting a hostname set up
for testing, and then rolling over once we're ready to go live.

ttx had some good input on making sure the list description had the
necessary info about tagging subjects in list emails. Stef had some
ideas about customizing the look and feel. That's all in the notes
linked above.

There have been other conversations in various places, and I'll gather
those up and send out another email.

More soon,

d

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duncan at dreamhost

May 11, 2012, 1:20 PM

Post #17 of 17 (242 views)
Permalink
Re: Mailing-list split [In reply to]

Re-sending to the list...

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 6:07 PM, Stefano Maffulli <stefano [at] openstack> wrote:
>
> On Fri 04 May 2012 12:38:16 PM PDT, Duncan McGreggor wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh, gmane is fine, I just said the first thing that came into my head.
>>> Now that I think about it, I'm a Emacs/Gnus guy, so I guess if I did
>>> have an opinion, it would probably be "go gmane". :)
>
> they're all suboptimal but so much better than pipermail... or not...
> the situation is just bad. Lets wait for MM3 or something else.
>
> I can't find the openstack list on gmane: is there an archive there now?

We'll subscribe to gmane (which can also add us to mail-archive.com)
as soon as the lists are in their new locations.

>> We need to talk about migrating data:
>> * from the old host to the new one
>> * from LP archives (don't know if that's possible)
>
> we can migrate data from LP archives (we can ask them for the mbox). I
> wonder if we need to do that though.

It'd be nice to offer folks as a download, so they can search mail
archives off-line. I've certainly done that in the past.

d

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