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Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing

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brian.e.carpenter at gmail

Sep 5, 2011, 6:34 PM

Post #1 of 10 (1027 views)
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Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing

Good news down under, it seems that TelstraClear is now supporting
native IPv6, announced in Australia but observable in New Zealand too,
with much less HE tunnel than before.

However, it seems to be time for a discussion about routing policy.
The traceroute below reminds me of IPv4 around 1990. Is it really
optimal to route from Auckland to Brisbane via Hong Kong and Los
Angeles? Of course there are all the usual commercial constraints
on policy, but this seems to be worse than that.

C:\Documents and Settings\bcar071>tracert www.apnic.net

Tracing route to www.apnic.net [2001:dc0:2001:11::211]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:2006::254 % Uni Auckland
2 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:1::17:af
3 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::101 % TELSTRACLEAR-V6-NZ-UNALLOCATED-20050513
4 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::1
5 1 ms * 1 ms 2403:e800:fd18:fe00::1 % Reach Global Internet HK
6 127 ms 127 ms 127 ms i-0-0-4-0.tlot-core01.bx.reach.com [::ffff:202.84.142.118]
7 127 ms 131 ms 127 ms 2001:504:13::24 % ONE-WILSHIRE-PACKET-EXCHANGE
8 132 ms 127 ms 128 ms 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax1.he.net [2001:504:0:3::6939:1]
9 126 ms 135 ms 126 ms 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax2.he.net [2001:470:0:72::2]
10 135 ms 135 ms 135 ms 2001:504:13::3b
11 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms pos-0-0-1.cor02.syd03.nsw.vocusconnect.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::ba]
12 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms ten-1-3-0.cor01.syd03.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::59]
13 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms ten-0-2-0.bdr01.syd01.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::c6]
14 302 ms 303 ms 303 ms 2402:7800:0:1::9e
15 303 ms 303 ms 303 ms apnic.ipv6.brisbane.pipenetworks.com [2001:7fa:9::4]
16 304 ms 303 ms 304 ms 2001:dc0:2001:11::211

Trace complete.

Brian

nuno.vieira at nfsi

Sep 5, 2011, 6:37 PM

Post #2 of 10 (948 views)
Permalink

Re: Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing [In reply to]

if packets had airline miles, those would have some thousands :-)

--nvieira

----- Original Message -----
> Good news down under, it seems that TelstraClear is now supporting
> native IPv6, announced in Australia but observable in New Zealand
> too,
> with much less HE tunnel than before.
>
> However, it seems to be time for a discussion about routing policy.
> The traceroute below reminds me of IPv4 around 1990. Is it really
> optimal to route from Auckland to Brisbane via Hong Kong and Los
> Angeles? Of course there are all the usual commercial constraints
> on policy, but this seems to be worse than that.
>
> C:\Documents and Settings\bcar071>tracert www.apnic.net
>
> Tracing route to www.apnic.net [2001:dc0:2001:11::211]
> over a maximum of 30 hops:
>
> 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:2006::254 % Uni
> Auckland
> 2 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:1::17:af
> 3 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::101 %
> TELSTRACLEAR-V6-NZ-UNALLOCATED-20050513
> 4 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::1
> 5 1 ms * 1 ms 2403:e800:fd18:fe00::1 % Reach
> Global Internet HK
> 6 127 ms 127 ms 127 ms i-0-0-4-0.tlot-core01.bx.reach.com
> [::ffff:202.84.142.118]
> 7 127 ms 131 ms 127 ms 2001:504:13::24 %
> ONE-WILSHIRE-PACKET-EXCHANGE
> 8 132 ms 127 ms 128 ms
> 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax1.he.net [2001:504:0:3::6939:1]
> 9 126 ms 135 ms 126 ms
> 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax2.he.net [2001:470:0:72::2]
> 10 135 ms 135 ms 135 ms 2001:504:13::3b
> 11 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms
> pos-0-0-1.cor02.syd03.nsw.vocusconnect.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::ba]
> 12 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms
> ten-1-3-0.cor01.syd03.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::59]
> 13 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms
> ten-0-2-0.bdr01.syd01.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::c6]
> 14 302 ms 303 ms 303 ms 2402:7800:0:1::9e
> 15 303 ms 303 ms 303 ms apnic.ipv6.brisbane.pipenetworks.com
> [2001:7fa:9::4]
> 16 304 ms 303 ms 304 ms 2001:dc0:2001:11::211
>
> Trace complete.
>
> Brian
>

roger at jorgensen

Sep 5, 2011, 11:57 PM

Post #3 of 10 (943 views)
Permalink

Re: Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing [In reply to]

On tir, september 6, 2011 03:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Good news down under, it seems that TelstraClear is now supporting
> native IPv6, announced in Australia but observable in New Zealand too,
> with much less HE tunnel than before.
>
> However, it seems to be time for a discussion about routing policy.
> The traceroute below reminds me of IPv4 around 1990. Is it really
> optimal to route from Auckland to Brisbane via Hong Kong and Los
> Angeles? Of course there are all the usual commercial constraints
> on policy, but this seems to be worse than that.
<snip>

uh, thought this was the lesson of 6bone and early 2000-2003?
not route _via_ another continent.

--
---

------------------------------
Roger Jorgensen | - ROJO9-RIPE - RJ85P-NORID
roger [at] jorgensen | - The Future is IPv6
-------------------------------------------------------

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

marty at supine

Sep 6, 2011, 12:43 AM

Post #4 of 10 (943 views)
Permalink

Re: Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing [In reply to]

$quoted_author = "Brian E Carpenter" ;
>
> However, it seems to be time for a discussion about routing policy.
> The traceroute below reminds me of IPv4 around 1990. Is it really
> optimal to route from Auckland to Brisbane via Hong Kong and Los
> Angeles? Of course there are all the usual commercial constraints
> on policy, but this seems to be worse than that.

Pretty sure Hong Kong is just where Reach is headquartered, not actually
part of the path if you are reaching LA in ~130ms.

That doesn't take away from your point though. I think we'll be waiting a
while to see how IPv6 interconnection pans out in Oceania and SE-Asia as
smaller networks tended to be first movers while large incumbents are late
to the party.

cheers
Marty

ignatios at cs

Sep 6, 2011, 2:09 AM

Post #5 of 10 (944 views)
Permalink

Re: Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing [In reply to]

On Tue, Sep 06, 2011 at 01:34:09PM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Good news down under, it seems that TelstraClear is now supporting
> native IPv6, announced in Australia but observable in New Zealand too,
> with much less HE tunnel than before.
>
> However, it seems to be time for a discussion about routing policy.
> The traceroute below reminds me of IPv4 around 1990. Is it really
> optimal to route from Auckland to Brisbane via Hong Kong and Los
> Angeles? Of course there are all the usual commercial constraints
> on policy, but this seems to be worse than that.
>
> C:\Documents and Settings\bcar071>tracert www.apnic.net
>
> Tracing route to www.apnic.net [2001:dc0:2001:11::211]
> over a maximum of 30 hops:
>
> 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:2006::254 % Uni Auckland

outside view:

from Uni-Bonn I reach apnic via

dfn fra - level3 fra/lndn01/nwrk01/asbn01/atln01/lsan01/nsyd

and Uni Auckland via

dfn fra - geant2 fra/wash - internet2 atla/hous/losa - 2401:138:2000 -
2404:138:0 - then only stars.

>From home I reach apnic via

rh-tec fra - HE fra/lon/nyc/lax - reach.com - 2401:38000 - 2001:4403:: - stars

and U auckland via

rh-tec fra - HE fra/lon/nyc/lax - 2001:504:13 - nsw.vocusconnect -
VOCUS syd - 2402:7800:: - brisbane.pipenetworks - 2001:dc0:2001:11::211

Something is strange with UDP filtering at UofAuck - or its upstream(s).

-is

brian.e.carpenter at gmail

Sep 6, 2011, 2:48 PM

Post #6 of 10 (934 views)
Permalink

Re: Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing [In reply to]

Hi Ignatios,

> Something is strange with UDP filtering at UofAuck - or its upstream(s).

I think that's the KAREN network (our NREN) but it's possible that
my friends across the road at IT Services are also blocking pings on campus.

If you have any way to check on ICMPv6 PTB transparency that would
be nice. www.cs.auckland.ac.nz is dual stacked.

Thanks
Brian Carpenter

On 2011-09-06 21:09, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 06, 2011 at 01:34:09PM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Good news down under, it seems that TelstraClear is now supporting
>> native IPv6, announced in Australia but observable in New Zealand too,
>> with much less HE tunnel than before.
>>
>> However, it seems to be time for a discussion about routing policy.
>> The traceroute below reminds me of IPv4 around 1990. Is it really
>> optimal to route from Auckland to Brisbane via Hong Kong and Los
>> Angeles? Of course there are all the usual commercial constraints
>> on policy, but this seems to be worse than that.
>>
>> C:\Documents and Settings\bcar071>tracert www.apnic.net
>>
>> Tracing route to www.apnic.net [2001:dc0:2001:11::211]
>> over a maximum of 30 hops:
>>
>> 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:2006::254 % Uni Auckland
>
> outside view:
>
> from Uni-Bonn I reach apnic via
>
> dfn fra - level3 fra/lndn01/nwrk01/asbn01/atln01/lsan01/nsyd
>
> and Uni Auckland via
>
> dfn fra - geant2 fra/wash - internet2 atla/hous/losa - 2401:138:2000 -
> 2404:138:0 - then only stars.
>
>
>>From home I reach apnic via
>
> rh-tec fra - HE fra/lon/nyc/lax - reach.com - 2401:38000 - 2001:4403:: - stars
>
> and U auckland via
>
> rh-tec fra - HE fra/lon/nyc/lax - 2001:504:13 - nsw.vocusconnect -
> VOCUS syd - 2402:7800:: - brisbane.pipenetworks - 2001:dc0:2001:11::211
>
> Something is strange with UDP filtering at UofAuck - or its upstream(s).
>
> -is
>
>

aservin at lacnic

Sep 6, 2011, 4:12 PM

Post #7 of 10 (938 views)
Permalink

Re: Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing [In reply to]

We see similar problems in Latin America. IPv6 packets going to Miami to switch networks while IPv4 is exchanged locally in IXs.

Regards,
.as

On 5 Sep 2011, at 22:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> Good news down under, it seems that TelstraClear is now supporting
> native IPv6, announced in Australia but observable in New Zealand too,
> with much less HE tunnel than before.
>
> However, it seems to be time for a discussion about routing policy.
> The traceroute below reminds me of IPv4 around 1990. Is it really
> optimal to route from Auckland to Brisbane via Hong Kong and Los
> Angeles? Of course there are all the usual commercial constraints
> on policy, but this seems to be worse than that.
>
> C:\Documents and Settings\bcar071>tracert www.apnic.net
>
> Tracing route to www.apnic.net [2001:dc0:2001:11::211]
> over a maximum of 30 hops:
>
> 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:2006::254 % Uni Auckland
> 2 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:1::17:af
> 3 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::101 % TELSTRACLEAR-V6-NZ-UNALLOCATED-20050513
> 4 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::1
> 5 1 ms * 1 ms 2403:e800:fd18:fe00::1 % Reach Global Internet HK
> 6 127 ms 127 ms 127 ms i-0-0-4-0.tlot-core01.bx.reach.com [::ffff:202.84.142.118]
> 7 127 ms 131 ms 127 ms 2001:504:13::24 % ONE-WILSHIRE-PACKET-EXCHANGE
> 8 132 ms 127 ms 128 ms 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax1.he.net [2001:504:0:3::6939:1]
> 9 126 ms 135 ms 126 ms 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax2.he.net [2001:470:0:72::2]
> 10 135 ms 135 ms 135 ms 2001:504:13::3b
> 11 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms pos-0-0-1.cor02.syd03.nsw.vocusconnect.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::ba]
> 12 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms ten-1-3-0.cor01.syd03.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::59]
> 13 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms ten-0-2-0.bdr01.syd01.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::c6]
> 14 302 ms 303 ms 303 ms 2402:7800:0:1::9e
> 15 303 ms 303 ms 303 ms apnic.ipv6.brisbane.pipenetworks.com [2001:7fa:9::4]
> 16 304 ms 303 ms 304 ms 2001:dc0:2001:11::211
>
> Trace complete.
>
> Brian

brian.e.carpenter at gmail

Sep 6, 2011, 4:26 PM

Post #8 of 10 (933 views)
Permalink

Re: Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing [In reply to]

BTW I should have mentioned that the IPv4 route avoids crossing the Pacific Ocean
twice, with 12 hops and 40 ms instead of 16 hops and 300 ms.

Regards
Brian

On 2011-09-07 11:12, Arturo Servin wrote:
> We see similar problems in Latin America. IPv6 packets going to Miami to switch networks while IPv4 is exchanged locally in IXs.
>
>
> Regards,
> .as
>
> On 5 Sep 2011, at 22:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>
>> Good news down under, it seems that TelstraClear is now supporting
>> native IPv6, announced in Australia but observable in New Zealand too,
>> with much less HE tunnel than before.
>>
>> However, it seems to be time for a discussion about routing policy.
>> The traceroute below reminds me of IPv4 around 1990. Is it really
>> optimal to route from Auckland to Brisbane via Hong Kong and Los
>> Angeles? Of course there are all the usual commercial constraints
>> on policy, but this seems to be worse than that.
>>
>> C:\Documents and Settings\bcar071>tracert www.apnic.net
>>
>> Tracing route to www.apnic.net [2001:dc0:2001:11::211]
>> over a maximum of 30 hops:
>>
>> 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:2006::254 % Uni Auckland
>> 2 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:1::17:af
>> 3 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::101 % TELSTRACLEAR-V6-NZ-UNALLOCATED-20050513
>> 4 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::1
>> 5 1 ms * 1 ms 2403:e800:fd18:fe00::1 % Reach Global Internet HK
>> 6 127 ms 127 ms 127 ms i-0-0-4-0.tlot-core01.bx.reach.com [::ffff:202.84.142.118]
>> 7 127 ms 131 ms 127 ms 2001:504:13::24 % ONE-WILSHIRE-PACKET-EXCHANGE
>> 8 132 ms 127 ms 128 ms 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax1.he.net [2001:504:0:3::6939:1]
>> 9 126 ms 135 ms 126 ms 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax2.he.net [2001:470:0:72::2]
>> 10 135 ms 135 ms 135 ms 2001:504:13::3b
>> 11 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms pos-0-0-1.cor02.syd03.nsw.vocusconnect.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::ba]
>> 12 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms ten-1-3-0.cor01.syd03.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::59]
>> 13 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms ten-0-2-0.bdr01.syd01.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::c6]
>> 14 302 ms 303 ms 303 ms 2402:7800:0:1::9e
>> 15 303 ms 303 ms 303 ms apnic.ipv6.brisbane.pipenetworks.com [2001:7fa:9::4]
>> 16 304 ms 303 ms 304 ms 2001:dc0:2001:11::211
>>
>> Trace complete.
>>
>> Brian
>
>

aservin at lacnic

Sep 6, 2011, 4:36 PM

Post #9 of 10 (933 views)
Permalink

Re: Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing [In reply to]

I guess this eventually will go away when ISPs realise that they can peer in v6 as well.

=)

-as

On 6 Sep 2011, at 20:26, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> BTW I should have mentioned that the IPv4 route avoids crossing the Pacific Ocean
> twice, with 12 hops and 40 ms instead of 16 hops and 300 ms.
>
> Regards
> Brian
>
> On 2011-09-07 11:12, Arturo Servin wrote:
>> We see similar problems in Latin America. IPv6 packets going to Miami to switch networks while IPv4 is exchanged locally in IXs.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> .as
>>
>> On 5 Sep 2011, at 22:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>
>>> Good news down under, it seems that TelstraClear is now supporting
>>> native IPv6, announced in Australia but observable in New Zealand too,
>>> with much less HE tunnel than before.
>>>
>>> However, it seems to be time for a discussion about routing policy.
>>> The traceroute below reminds me of IPv4 around 1990. Is it really
>>> optimal to route from Auckland to Brisbane via Hong Kong and Los
>>> Angeles? Of course there are all the usual commercial constraints
>>> on policy, but this seems to be worse than that.
>>>
>>> C:\Documents and Settings\bcar071>tracert www.apnic.net
>>>
>>> Tracing route to www.apnic.net [2001:dc0:2001:11::211]
>>> over a maximum of 30 hops:
>>>
>>> 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:2006::254 % Uni Auckland
>>> 2 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:df0:0:1::17:af
>>> 3 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::101 % TELSTRACLEAR-V6-NZ-UNALLOCATED-20050513
>>> 4 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 2001:4403:0:106::1
>>> 5 1 ms * 1 ms 2403:e800:fd18:fe00::1 % Reach Global Internet HK
>>> 6 127 ms 127 ms 127 ms i-0-0-4-0.tlot-core01.bx.reach.com [::ffff:202.84.142.118]
>>> 7 127 ms 131 ms 127 ms 2001:504:13::24 % ONE-WILSHIRE-PACKET-EXCHANGE
>>> 8 132 ms 127 ms 128 ms 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax1.he.net [2001:504:0:3::6939:1]
>>> 9 126 ms 135 ms 126 ms 10gigabitethernet1-3.core1.lax2.he.net [2001:470:0:72::2]
>>> 10 135 ms 135 ms 135 ms 2001:504:13::3b
>>> 11 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms pos-0-0-1.cor02.syd03.nsw.vocusconnect.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::ba]
>>> 12 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms ten-1-3-0.cor01.syd03.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::59]
>>> 13 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms ten-0-2-0.bdr01.syd01.nsw.VOCUS.net.au [2402:7800:0:1::c6]
>>> 14 302 ms 303 ms 303 ms 2402:7800:0:1::9e
>>> 15 303 ms 303 ms 303 ms apnic.ipv6.brisbane.pipenetworks.com [2001:7fa:9::4]
>>> 16 304 ms 303 ms 304 ms 2001:dc0:2001:11::211
>>>
>>> Trace complete.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>
>>

mtinka at globaltransit

Sep 10, 2011, 10:51 PM

Post #10 of 10 (901 views)
Permalink

Re: Maybe it's time to talk about rational routing [In reply to]

On Wednesday, September 07, 2011 07:36:05 AM Arturo Servin
wrote:

> I guess this eventually will go away when ISPs
realise
> that they can peer in v6 as well.

Right.

It's really just a case of laziness of some ISP's to
implement v6 the same way as they do v4. Expect this to get
better with time (not that we haven't had much of it
already).

Mark.

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