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1500 does not work: Thoughts on increasing MTUs on the internet

 

 

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peter at peter-dambier

Apr 14, 2007, 12:38 AM

Post #1 of 5 (923 views)
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1500 does not work: Thoughts on increasing MTUs on the internet

Fred Baker wrote:
> ...
> 1500 byte MTUs in fact work. I'm all for 9K MTUs, and would recommend
> them. I don't see the point of 65K MTUs.
> ...

Well, with almost everybody using PPP0E in germany and at least half
of europe our mtu is somewhere arround 1480. Many routers are braindead
(ICMP lobotomiced).

When you hit somebody on an ip2ip link or IPv6 tunnel your mtu goes down
to even smaller packets and things live ftp or ssh simply break. I have
seen many gamers on mtu = 1024 and smaller.

Kind regards
Peter and Karin Dambier

--
Peter and Karin Dambier
Cesidian Root - Radice Cesidiana
Rimbacher Strasse 16
D-69509 Moerlenbach-Bonsweiher
+49(6209)795-816 (Telekom)
+49(6252)750-308 (VoIP: sipgate.de)
mail: peter[at]peter-dambier.de
mail: peter[at]echnaton.arl.pirates
http://iason.site.voila.fr/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/iason/
http://www.cesidianroot.com/


tme at multicasttech

Apr 14, 2007, 6:13 AM

Post #2 of 5 (859 views)
Permalink
Re: 1500 does not work: Thoughts on increasing MTUs on the internet [In reply to]

Hello;

On Apr 14, 2007, at 3:38 AM, Peter Dambier wrote:

>
> Fred Baker wrote:
>> ...
>> 1500 byte MTUs in fact work. I'm all for 9K MTUs, and would
>> recommend them. I don't see the point of 65K MTUs.
>> ...
>
> Well, with almost everybody using PPP0E in germany and at least half
> of europe our mtu is somewhere arround 1480. Many routers are
> braindead
> (ICMP lobotomiced).
>
> When you hit somebody on an ip2ip link or IPv6 tunnel your mtu goes
> down
> to even smaller packets and things live ftp or ssh simply break. I
> have
> seen many gamers on mtu = 1024 and smaller.

I advise people doing streaming to not use MTU's larger than ~1450
for these sorts of reasons.

>
> Kind regards
> Peter and Karin Dambier
>

Regards
Marshall

> --
> Peter and Karin Dambier
> Cesidian Root - Radice Cesidiana
> Rimbacher Strasse 16
> D-69509 Moerlenbach-Bonsweiher
> +49(6209)795-816 (Telekom)
> +49(6252)750-308 (VoIP: sipgate.de)
> mail: peter[at]peter-dambier.de
> mail: peter[at]echnaton.arl.pirates
> http://iason.site.voila.fr/
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/iason/
> http://www.cesidianroot.com/
>


pete at he

Apr 14, 2007, 10:49 PM

Post #3 of 5 (859 views)
Permalink
Re: 1500 does not work: Thoughts on increasing MTUs on the internet [In reply to]

Marshall Eubanks wrote:
>
> I advise people doing streaming to not use MTU's larger than ~1450 for
> these sorts of reasons.
The unfortunate side-effect of that is that most prominent streaming
apps (don't know about Youtube though) then send fragmented UDP packets
which leads to reassembly overhead and in case of lost packets, a
significantly larger lost data than neccessary.

Pete

>
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Peter and Karin Dambier
>>
>
> Regards
> Marshall
>
>> --Peter and Karin Dambier
>> Cesidian Root - Radice Cesidiana
>> Rimbacher Strasse 16
>> D-69509 Moerlenbach-Bonsweiher
>> +49(6209)795-816 (Telekom)
>> +49(6252)750-308 (VoIP: sipgate.de)
>> mail: peter[at]peter-dambier.de
>> mail: peter[at]echnaton.arl.pirates
>> http://iason.site.voila.fr/
>> https://sourceforge.net/projects/iason/
>> http://www.cesidianroot.com/
>>
>
>


tme at multicasttech

Apr 15, 2007, 5:58 AM

Post #4 of 5 (859 views)
Permalink
Re: 1500 does not work: Thoughts on increasing MTUs on the internet [In reply to]

On Apr 15, 2007, at 1:49 AM, Petri Helenius wrote:

>
> Marshall Eubanks wrote:
>>
>> I advise people doing streaming to not use MTU's larger than ~1450
>> for these sorts of reasons.
> The unfortunate side-effect of that is that most prominent
> streaming apps (don't know about Youtube though) then send
> fragmented UDP packets which leads to reassembly overhead and in
> case of lost packets, a significantly larger lost data than
> neccessary.
>
> Pete

Dear Pete;

The streaming servers that I have dealt with (such as Darwin
Streaming Server) do the fragmentation at the application layer. They
thus send out lots of packets at or near (in this case) 1450 bytes,
but they are not UDP fragments.
That's the whole point - many networks will not deliver fragments at
all, much less the increased risk of loss when they do. (I use Cox
Cable at home, and this network apparently does not forward fragments
and also has an apparent MTU of 1480 bytes.)

Just looked at a YouTube dump, btw, and almost all of the packets are
1448 bytes.

Regards
Marshall


>
>>
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>> Peter and Karin Dambier
>>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Marshall
>>
>>> --Peter and Karin Dambier
>>> Cesidian Root - Radice Cesidiana
>>> Rimbacher Strasse 16
>>> D-69509 Moerlenbach-Bonsweiher
>>> +49(6209)795-816 (Telekom)
>>> +49(6252)750-308 (VoIP: sipgate.de)
>>> mail: peter[at]peter-dambier.de
>>> mail: peter[at]echnaton.arl.pirates
>>> http://iason.site.voila.fr/
>>> https://sourceforge.net/projects/iason/
>>> http://www.cesidianroot.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>


pete at he

Apr 15, 2007, 8:48 AM

Post #5 of 5 (868 views)
Permalink
Re: 1500 does not work: Thoughts on increasing MTUs on the internet [In reply to]

Marshall Eubanks wrote:
>
> Dear Pete;
>
> The streaming servers that I have dealt with (such as Darwin Streaming
> Server) do the fragmentation at the application layer. They thus send
> out lots of packets at or near (in this case) 1450 bytes, but they are
> not UDP fragments.
> That's the whole point - many networks will not deliver fragments at
> all, much less the increased risk of loss when they do. (I use Cox
> Cable at home, and this network apparently does not forward fragments
> and also has an apparent MTU of 1480 bytes.)
>
> Just looked at a YouTube dump, btw, and almost all of the packets are
> 1448 bytes.

I'm referring to Windows Media and Real. They are the worst offenders,
though not too many use them without HTTP.

Pete

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