Mailing List Archive: NANOG: users

Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts

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grizz at dipd

Jul 28, 2012, 2:36 PM

Post #1 of 21 (719 views)
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Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts

As a quick update, we've implemented some list settings last week to help to
keep spam off the list. New subscribers are moderated until we're comfortable
with their posts. We rejected the idea of keyword based message filtering
since not only is a lot of work to maintain, it's trivial to get around it if
you really want to post banned words.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Matt Griswold, on behalf of the NANOG Communications Committee

valdis.kletnieks at vt

Jul 30, 2012, 10:35 AM

Post #2 of 21 (696 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:04:36 +0200, Panashe Flack said:
> list for continued activity. And just for reference - have you guys
> SEEN the "Linux Kernel Mailing List"? - it gets frequent spam posts
> and yet is perfectly able to ignore the spam/irrelevant posts and
> continue on its remit.

For those who don't drink from the Linux-Kernel firehose, it averages
1 or 2 spams per day - and anywhere from 500 to 700 postings a day.

As Linus Torvalds said, back when it was averaging 200 a day:

"Note that nobody reads every post in linux-kernel. In fact, nobody who
expects to have time left over to actually do any real kernel work will
read even half. Except Alan Cox, but he's actually not human, but about
a thousand gnomes working in under-ground caves in Swansea. None of the
individual gnomes read all the postings either, they just work together
really well."

The list managers do an incredible job of stopping spam - but even if
50 or 75 a day got through, they'd just be lost in the noise. You're skipping
several hundred messages a day, skipping a few more isn't any different.

patrick at ianai

Jul 30, 2012, 10:42 AM

Post #3 of 21 (694 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

I'm sorry Panashe is upset by this rule. Interestingly, "Your search - Panashe Flack nanog - did not match any documents." So my guess is that a post from that account has not happened before, meaning the post was moderated yet still made it through.

Has anyone done a data mining experiment to see how many posts a month are from "new" members? My guess is it is a trivial percentage.

--
TTFN,
patrick

On Jul 30, 2012, at 13:35 , valdis.kletnieks [at] vt wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:04:36 +0200, Panashe Flack said:
>> list for continued activity. And just for reference - have you guys
>> SEEN the "Linux Kernel Mailing List"? - it gets frequent spam posts
>> and yet is perfectly able to ignore the spam/irrelevant posts and
>> continue on its remit.
>
> For those who don't drink from the Linux-Kernel firehose, it averages
> 1 or 2 spams per day - and anywhere from 500 to 700 postings a day.
>
> As Linus Torvalds said, back when it was averaging 200 a day:
>
> "Note that nobody reads every post in linux-kernel. In fact, nobody who
> expects to have time left over to actually do any real kernel work will
> read even half. Except Alan Cox, but he's actually not human, but about
> a thousand gnomes working in under-ground caves in Swansea. None of the
> individual gnomes read all the postings either, they just work together
> really well."
>
> The list managers do an incredible job of stopping spam - but even if
> 50 or 75 a day got through, they'd just be lost in the noise. You're skipping
> several hundred messages a day, skipping a few more isn't any different.
>

shrdlu at deaddrop

Jul 30, 2012, 10:57 AM

Post #4 of 21 (696 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On 7/30/2012 12:04 PM, Panashe Flack wrote:
>> As a quick update, we've implemented some list settings last week to help to
>> keep spam off the list. New subscribers are moderated until we're comfortable
>> with their posts...

> I dislike this change - how long are subscribers considered "new"?

I applaud this change. If I still traveled, I'd show up to the next
NANOG, and buy the committee a beer. Instead, I send them my thanks.

I run a couple of mailing lists, and every once in a while, someone will
subscribe and set off my cynicism meter. I hit the moderate button on
the new account, and sad to say, I've only been wrong to do so once, out
of the last ten times I did it.

Thanks again.

--
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

snoble at sonn

Jul 30, 2012, 10:57 AM

Post #5 of 21 (694 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

The fix for this issue is trivial. Every new signup should require a sponsor or a deposit of funds into a new member fund. Once a member has made a relevant post regarding a NANOG related item their funds are returned.

If someone spams they forfeit the money and it is used to help defray the costs of attending NANOG for the 99%.

If the poster has been sponsored by a current member, said member is flogged in public at the next meeting.

...runs

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2012, at 10:42 AM, "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick [at] ianai> wrote:

> I'm sorry Panashe is upset by this rule. Interestingly, "Your search - Panashe Flack nanog - did not match any documents." So my guess is that a post from that account has not happened before, meaning the post was moderated yet still made it through.
>
> Has anyone done a data mining experiment to see how many posts a month are from "new" members? My guess is it is a trivial percentage.
>
> --
> TTFN,
> patrick
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 13:35 , valdis.kletnieks [at] vt wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:04:36 +0200, Panashe Flack said:
>>> list for continued activity. And just for reference - have you guys
>>> SEEN the "Linux Kernel Mailing List"? - it gets frequent spam posts
>>> and yet is perfectly able to ignore the spam/irrelevant posts and
>>> continue on its remit.
>>
>> For those who don't drink from the Linux-Kernel firehose, it averages
>> 1 or 2 spams per day - and anywhere from 500 to 700 postings a day.
>>
>> As Linus Torvalds said, back when it was averaging 200 a day:
>>
>> "Note that nobody reads every post in linux-kernel. In fact, nobody who
>> expects to have time left over to actually do any real kernel work will
>> read even half. Except Alan Cox, but he's actually not human, but about
>> a thousand gnomes working in under-ground caves in Swansea. None of the
>> individual gnomes read all the postings either, they just work together
>> really well."
>>
>> The list managers do an incredible job of stopping spam - but even if
>> 50 or 75 a day got through, they'd just be lost in the noise. You're skipping
>> several hundred messages a day, skipping a few more isn't any different.
>>
>
>

randy at psg

Jul 30, 2012, 11:15 AM

Post #6 of 21 (698 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

> I applaud this change.

<aol>

thanks MLC or whatever it calls itself this week

randy

rgolodner at infratection

Jul 30, 2012, 11:51 AM

Post #7 of 21 (699 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

I as well think some temporary moderation is a good idea.
It would have been nice to think we were all mature enough to have ignored such spew. I will continue to have faith and wish the moderators a very light work load.
Richard Golodner
------Original Message------
From: Randy Bush
To: Etaoin Shrdlu
Cc: nanog [at] nanog
Subject: Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts
Sent: Jul 30, 2012 13:15

> I applaud this change.

<aol>

thanks MLC or whatever it calls itself this week

randy

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

joelja at bogus

Jul 30, 2012, 12:04 PM

Post #8 of 21 (695 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On 7/30/12 10:57 AM, Steven Noble wrote:
> The fix for this issue is trivial. Every new signup should require a sponsor or a deposit of funds into a new member fund. Once a member has made a relevant post regarding a NANOG related item their funds are returned.
>
> If someone spams they forfeit the money and it is used to help defray the costs of attending NANOG for the 99%.
>
> If the poster has been sponsored by a current member, said member is flogged in public at the next meeting.
Most of the subscribers to the mailing list never post.

> ...runs
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 10:42 AM, "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick [at] ianai> wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry Panashe is upset by this rule. Interestingly, "Your search - Panashe Flack nanog - did not match any documents." So my guess is that a post from that account has not happened before, meaning the post was moderated yet still made it through.
>>
>> Has anyone done a data mining experiment to see how many posts a month are from "new" members? My guess is it is a trivial percentage.
>>
>> --
>> TTFN,
>> patrick
>>
>>
>> On Jul 30, 2012, at 13:35 , valdis.kletnieks [at] vt wrote:
>>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:04:36 +0200, Panashe Flack said:
>>>> list for continued activity. And just for reference - have you guys
>>>> SEEN the "Linux Kernel Mailing List"? - it gets frequent spam posts
>>>> and yet is perfectly able to ignore the spam/irrelevant posts and
>>>> continue on its remit.
>>> For those who don't drink from the Linux-Kernel firehose, it averages
>>> 1 or 2 spams per day - and anywhere from 500 to 700 postings a day.
>>>
>>> As Linus Torvalds said, back when it was averaging 200 a day:
>>>
>>> "Note that nobody reads every post in linux-kernel. In fact, nobody who
>>> expects to have time left over to actually do any real kernel work will
>>> read even half. Except Alan Cox, but he's actually not human, but about
>>> a thousand gnomes working in under-ground caves in Swansea. None of the
>>> individual gnomes read all the postings either, they just work together
>>> really well."
>>>
>>> The list managers do an incredible job of stopping spam - but even if
>>> 50 or 75 a day got through, they'd just be lost in the noise. You're skipping
>>> several hundred messages a day, skipping a few more isn't any different.
>>>
>>
>

lists222 at m

Jul 30, 2012, 12:04 PM

Post #9 of 21 (696 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

> As a quick update, we've implemented some list settings last week to help to
> keep spam off the list. New subscribers are moderated until we're comfortable
> with their posts. We rejected the idea of keyword based message filtering
> since not only is a lot of work to maintain, it's trivial to get around it if
> you really want to post banned words.
>
> Comments and suggestions are welcome.
>
>
> Matt Griswold, on behalf of the NANOG Communications Committee
>

I dislike this change - how long are subscribers considered "new"? I
believe (and I hope I'm wrong) that with this new rule the nanog
maiing list will turn into another fulldisc (list activity greatly
reduced) by this change. Before this change I had thought of nanog as
the new fulldisc - I guess I will have to find yet ANOTHER mailing
list for continued activity. And just for reference - have you guys
SEEN the "Linux Kernel Mailing List"? - it gets frequent spam posts
and yet is perfectly able to ignore the spam/irrelevant posts and
continue on its remit.

jra at baylink

Jul 30, 2012, 1:35 PM

Post #10 of 21 (689 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randy Bush" <randy [at] psg>

> thanks MLC or whatever it calls itself this week

C'mon, Randy; It's been called that since it kicked me off 7 years ago. :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA +1 727 647 1274

patrick at ianai

Jul 30, 2012, 1:38 PM

Post #11 of 21 (690 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On Jul 30, 2012, at 16:35 , Jay Ashworth <jra [at] baylink> wrote:

>> thanks MLC or whatever it calls itself this week
>
> C'mon, Randy; It's been called that since it kicked me off 7 years ago. :-)

Except, of course, it has been called the Communications Committee for a while now. (The change was made because the committee took responsibility for more than just the mailing list.)

But 1 change in 7 years made years ago does not, IMHO, merit a "whatever it calls itself this week" snark.

--
TTFN,
patrick

brian.peter.dickson at gmail

Jul 30, 2012, 3:28 PM

Post #12 of 21 (692 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

>
> As a quick update, we've implemented some list settings last week to help
> to
>
> keep spam off the list. New subscribers are moderated until we're
> comfortable
> with their posts. We rejected the idea of keyword based message filtering
> since not only is a lot of work to maintain, it's trivial to get around it
> if
> you really want to post banned words.
> Comments and suggestions are welcome.
> Matt Griswold, on behalf of the NANOG Communications Committee
>
> I've always liked the idea found in xkcd.com/810 ;-).

Brian

MGauvin at dryden

Jul 30, 2012, 4:08 PM

Post #13 of 21 (689 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On list spam has been minimal but off list cold call type emails have
been mounting for several months

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-07-30, at 5:29 PM, "Brian Dickson" <brian.peter.dickson [at] gmail
> wrote:

>>
>> As a quick update, we've implemented some list settings last week
>> to help
>> to
>>
>> keep spam off the list. New subscribers are moderated until we're
>> comfortable
>> with their posts. We rejected the idea of keyword based message
>> filtering
>> since not only is a lot of work to maintain, it's trivial to get
>> around it
>> if
>> you really want to post banned words.
>> Comments and suggestions are welcome.
>> Matt Griswold, on behalf of the NANOG Communications Committee
>>
>> I've always liked the idea found in xkcd.com/810 ;-).
>
> Brian

allenmckinleykitchen at gmail

Jul 30, 2012, 7:23 PM

Post #14 of 21 (691 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On Jul 30, 2012, at 15:04, joel jaeggli <joelja [at] bogus> wrote:

> On 7/30/12 10:57 AM, Steven Noble wrote:
>> The fix for this issue is trivial. Every new signup ...

> Most of the subscribers to the mailing list never post.
>
>>

+1 (from an inveterate but VERY appreciative lurker)

..Allen

jra at baylink

Jul 31, 2012, 9:46 AM

Post #15 of 21 (682 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick [at] ianai>

> Except, of course, it has been called the Communications Committee for
> a while now. (The change was made because the committee took
> responsibility for more than just the mailing list.)

My turn for "silly me".

> But 1 change in 7 years made years ago does not, IMHO, merit a
> "whatever it calls itself this week" snark.

No... not, it doesn't. Maybe it's been less time in Japan?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274

frogstarr78 at gmail

Aug 1, 2012, 7:00 PM

Post #16 of 21 (671 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On 07/30/2012 10:57 AM, Steven Noble wrote:
> The fix for this issue is trivial. Every new signup should require a sponsor or a deposit of funds into a new member fund. Once a member has made a relevant post regarding a NANOG related item their funds are returned.
>
> If someone spams they forfeit the money and it is used to help defray the costs of attending NANOG for the 99%.
>
> If the poster has been sponsored by a current member, said member is flogged in public at the next meeting.
>
> ...runs
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 10:42 AM, "Patrick W. Gilmore"<patrick [at] ianai> wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry Panashe is upset by this rule. Interestingly, "Your search - Panashe Flack nanog - did not match any documents." So my guess is that a post from that account has not happened before, meaning the post was moderated yet still made it through.
>>
>> Has anyone done a data mining experiment to see how many posts a month are from "new" members? My guess is it is a trivial percentage.
>>
>> --
>> TTFN,
>> patrick
>>
>>
>> On Jul 30, 2012, at 13:35 , valdis.kletnieks [at] vt wrote:
>>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:04:36 +0200, Panashe Flack said:
>>>> list for continued activity. And just for reference - have you guys
>>>> SEEN the "Linux Kernel Mailing List"? - it gets frequent spam posts
>>>> and yet is perfectly able to ignore the spam/irrelevant posts and
>>>> continue on its remit.
>>> For those who don't drink from the Linux-Kernel firehose, it averages
>>> 1 or 2 spams per day - and anywhere from 500 to 700 postings a day.
>>>
>>> As Linus Torvalds said, back when it was averaging 200 a day:
>>>
>>> "Note that nobody reads every post in linux-kernel. In fact, nobody who
>>> expects to have time left over to actually do any real kernel work will
>>> read even half. Except Alan Cox, but he's actually not human, but about
>>> a thousand gnomes working in under-ground caves in Swansea. None of the
>>> individual gnomes read all the postings either, they just work together
>>> really well."
>>>
>>> The list managers do an incredible job of stopping spam - but even if
>>> 50 or 75 a day got through, they'd just be lost in the noise. You're skipping
>>> several hundred messages a day, skipping a few more isn't any different.
>>>
>>
Would be an iPhone user to suggest such an idea. Thanks for not
implementing this so us peons can learn a thing or two, too.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments

rdrake at direcpath

Aug 2, 2012, 1:25 PM

Post #17 of 21 (661 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On 7/30/2012 1:42 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
> I'm sorry Panashe is upset by this rule. Interestingly, "Your search - Panashe Flack nanog - did not match any documents." So my guess is that a post from that account has not happened before, meaning the post was moderated yet still made it through.
>
> Has anyone done a data mining experiment to see how many posts a month are from "new" members? My guess is it is a trivial percentage.
>

Ignoring many harder to determine things like "who has changed their
email address" and reducing it to simple shell commands, I got this:

for i in `cat ../nanog_archive_index.html | grep txt | cut -f2 -d\"` ;
do wget http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/$i; done
du -sh=41M (uncompressed=100M). That seems small for all the mail since
random 2007 but I'd rather use an official archive so people can
duplicate results and refine things.
grep -h "^From: " * | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr

First of all I will say Owen is winning by a fair margin:

1562 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
929 From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush)
775 From: Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu (Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu)
688 From: morrowc.lists at gmail.com (Christopher Morrow)
621 From: jbates at brightok.net (Jack Bates)
558 From: jra at baylink.com (Jay Ashworth)
480 From: gbonser at seven.com (George Bonser)
450 From: patrick at ianai.net (Patrick W. Gilmore)
446 From: cidr-report at potaroo.net (cidr-report at potaroo.net)

Total count:
grep -h "^From: " * | wc -l
54166

# Totals for < 10 contributors
for i in 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9; do grep -h "^From: " * | sort | uniq -c |
sort -nr | grep " $i" | wc -l; done
3129
1111
552
319
208
157
131
103
94

Total for less than 10 posts contributors: 5804

Percentages: 5804/54166=1% of posts from low contributors.

# shows the number of people who've contributed that number of times.
grep -h "^From: " * | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | awk '{print $1}' |
uniq -c | sort -nr

# another interesting thing to look at is posts by month per user
(dropping the -h from grep):
grep "^From: " * | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr

# not the most efficient, but tells you who posted the most in a month:
for i in *; do grep "^From: " * | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | grep $i |
head -n 1; done

# Per month, how many single post contributions happen/total. The
numbers can be higher here since people who posted in a different month
may still be counted as a new contributor
for i in *; do echo -n "$i "; grep "^From: " $i | sort | uniq -c |
sort -nr | grep " 1 " | wc -l | tr '\n' '/'; grep "^From: " $i | wc
-l ; done

valdis.kletnieks at vt

Aug 2, 2012, 1:54 PM

Post #18 of 21 (661 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:25:56 -0400, Robert Drake said:

> Percentages: 5804/54166=1% of posts from low contributors.

I suspect you fat-fingered something - I get 10.7%, not 1%, for that
calculation...

jamie at photon

Aug 2, 2012, 2:47 PM

Post #19 of 21 (656 views)
Permalink

RE: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

What's an order of magnitude between friends?

Very occasionally yours,

--
Jamie Bowden (jamie [at] photon)
Sr. Sys. Admin. (703) 243-6613 x3848
Photon Research Associates, Inc.
1616 Fort Myer Drive, Suite 1000
Arlington, VA 22209

> -----Original Message-----
> From: valdis.kletnieks [at] vt [mailto:valdis.kletnieks [at] vt]
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 4:56 PM
> To: Robert Drake
> Cc: nanog [at] nanog
> Subject: Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding
> recent off-topic posts
>
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:25:56 -0400, Robert Drake said:
>
> > Percentages: 5804/54166=1% of posts from low contributors.
>
> I suspect you fat-fingered something - I get 10.7%, not 1%, for that
> calculation...

george.herbert at gmail

Aug 2, 2012, 3:01 PM

Post #20 of 21 (656 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

Friends don't let friends binary shift.

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Jamie Bowden <jamie [at] photon> wrote:
> What's an order of magnitude between friends?
>
> Very occasionally yours,
>
> --
> Jamie Bowden (jamie [at] photon)
> Sr. Sys. Admin. (703) 243-6613 x3848
> Photon Research Associates, Inc.
> 1616 Fort Myer Drive, Suite 1000
> Arlington, VA 22209
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: valdis.kletnieks [at] vt [mailto:valdis.kletnieks [at] vt]
>> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 4:56 PM
>> To: Robert Drake
>> Cc: nanog [at] nanog
>> Subject: Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding
>> recent off-topic posts
>>
>> On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:25:56 -0400, Robert Drake said:
>>
>> > Percentages: 5804/54166=1% of posts from low contributors.
>>
>> I suspect you fat-fingered something - I get 10.7%, not 1%, for that
>> calculation...
>
>

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert [at] gmail

rhys at rhavenindustrys

Aug 2, 2012, 3:22 PM

Post #21 of 21 (658 views)
Permalink

Re: Update from the NANOG Communications Committee regarding recent off-topic posts [In reply to]

On 07/30/2012 09:23 PM, Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail) wrote:
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 15:04, joel jaeggli <joelja [at] bogus> wrote:
>
>> On 7/30/12 10:57 AM, Steven Noble wrote:
>>> The fix for this issue is trivial. Every new signup ...
>> Most of the subscribers to the mailing list never post.
>>
> +1 (from an inveterate but VERY appreciative lurker)
>
> ..Allen
>
I run a tiny network, no AS number. I try to build interesting features
into my local hackerspace's network from what I find here. I don't post
because I don't have useful experience to the size/scale of what is
posted here. I don't know what your organization is really nor where you
meet or who any of you are.

But even in my small network, I have picked up 10x more operational
knowledge here than what I learned from courses and classes, which
always seem to push you to use X just because it exists or because its
from a specific company.

I guess I mean to say thanks, for the knowledge and the moderation. If
most are like me, this will make it nicer to read. (except those people
whos email client breaks Thunderbird's threading system. no kudos for
them.)

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