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VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)

 

 

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jared at puck

May 2, 2012, 1:15 PM

Post #1 of 22 (1631 views)
Permalink
VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)

On May 2, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Eric Wieling wrote:

>
> I doubt the g729 or GSM codecs used by VoIP and Cell phones can compare to a POTS line.


This is why many people use g711ulaw or other codec.

Personally I would not work with anyone that doesn't do g711ulaw (88.2kbit when IP packet overhead added in).

There are other codecs such as G.722.1 & G.722.2 but the support isn't as broad as g711ulaw/alaw.

Regarding landline service, this can fail for many of the common reasons it does are the same reasons that IP service may fail. The failure modes can depend on a variety of circumstances from the physical layer (e.g.: audible static on the line) that cause your ear to retrain, which may cause a DSL device to comparably retrain. The same is true for shared medium such as CATV but this has other problems as well, if not well isolated, somebody can short out the segment or send garbage at the wrong channel, etc.

Personally, I'm thinking of ditching my ISDN (gives clear dial tone at a long-distance from the CO) for something like the Verizon Home Connect box. Gives a few hours of built-in battery backup, but would fail once the tower loses power (usually 8-12 hours).

I also am concerned about 911 service. When dialing 911 recently from my mobile, I should have dialed it from my home phone as I was routed a few times to get to the right fire dispatch team.

Oh well.

- Jared


bill at herrin

May 2, 2012, 2:33 PM

Post #2 of 22 (1606 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On 5/2/12, Jared Mauch <jared [at] puck> wrote:
> Personally, I'm thinking of ditching my ISDN (gives clear dial tone at a
> long-distance from the CO) for something like the Verizon Home Connect box.
> Gives a few hours of built-in battery backup, but would fail once the tower
> loses power (usually 8-12 hours).

Hi Jared,

Beware that the Verizon ONTs shut down all services *except* POTs when
they lose AC power. Some kind of conservation mode to maximize the
time 911 is available I guess. If you want Internet service (for VOIP)
to continue during a power outage, you'll have to stack another UPS in
front of it.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



--
William D. Herrin ................ herrin [at] dirtside bill [at] herrin
3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
Falls Church, VA 22042-3004


jared at puck

May 2, 2012, 3:00 PM

Post #3 of 22 (1597 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

This device uses cellular only. Don't live in vz territory. Live in AT&T pots only land. No cable here either.

Jared Mauch

On May 2, 2012, at 5:33 PM, William Herrin <bill [at] herrin> wrote:

> On 5/2/12, Jared Mauch <jared [at] puck> wrote:
>> Personally, I'm thinking of ditching my ISDN (gives clear dial tone at a
>> long-distance from the CO) for something like the Verizon Home Connect box.
>> Gives a few hours of built-in battery backup, but would fail once the tower
>> loses power (usually 8-12 hours).
>
> Hi Jared,
>
> Beware that the Verizon ONTs shut down all services *except* POTs when
> they lose AC power. Some kind of conservation mode to maximize the
> time 911 is available I guess. If you want Internet service (for VOIP)
> to continue during a power outage, you'll have to stack another UPS in
> front of it.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
>
> --
> William D. Herrin ................ herrin [at] dirtside bill [at] herrin
> 3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
> Falls Church, VA 22042-3004


jeroen at mompl

May 2, 2012, 4:36 PM

Post #4 of 22 (1596 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Jared Mauch wrote:
> Regarding landline service, this can fail for many of the common reasons it does are the same reasons that IP service may fail. The failure modes can depend on a variety of circumstances from the physical layer (e.g.: audible static on the line) that cause your ear to retrain, which may cause a DSL device to comparably retrain. The same is true for shared medium such as CATV but this has other problems as well, if not well isolated, somebody can short out the segment or send garbage at the wrong channel, etc.

I don't doubt it. However my practical experience is such that 100% of
the time (I lost count after 20 or so, in a decade) I experienced a
power failure the phone would still work. I am sure I am not the only one.

And these concern power outages in various locations, from the mountains
of Coastal Oregon to the Monterey Bay Area. And from trees falling over
the power lines to exploding transformers (two at once actually :-).

I guess the phone companies just do a better job at keeping up their
infrastructure. I don't know how often the phone cable is buried
compared to where the power cables are exposed to the elements. But I
would think that (more frequently) burying the phone cables is one
reason it's more reliable.

That's why (burying cables) in the Netherlands you would get a power
outage maybe once or twice a decade as opposed to every fortnight.

Greetings,
Jeroen

--
Earthquake Magnitude: 4.0
Date: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 12:33:29 UTC
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada region
Latitude: 50.6619; Longitude: -129.8861
Depth: 10.00 km


jra at baylink

May 2, 2012, 5:25 PM

Post #5 of 22 (1593 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeroen van Aart" <jeroen [at] mompl>

> I don't doubt it. However my practical experience is such that 100% of
> the time (I lost count after 20 or so, in a decade) I experienced a
> power failure the phone would still work. I am sure I am not the only
> one.

Sure. (We're not really having this conversation here, are we? :-)

Copper POTS service is centrally powered from a battery plant in the wire
center, which is generally something like -52V nominal at 6000-8000ADC
continuous.

If you get a tool across those busbars uninsulated, it will flash into
plasma much faster than you can blink; this happened at SPBGFLXA89H in
the... mid to late 80s? I no longer remember the details, but the guy
couldn't hear for several days, and the *entire* CO -- 30klines of GTD-5
and 100klines of 5E Remote -- was No Dial Tone for at least 12 hours
while they cleaned it up; SPPD and PCSO were stationed on streetcorners
to take emergency reports.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274


ralph.brandt at pateam

May 3, 2012, 7:59 AM

Post #6 of 22 (1589 views)
Permalink
RE: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

"I also am concerned about 911 service. When dialing 911 recently from
my mobile, I should have dialed it from my home phone as I was routed a
few times to get to the right fire dispatch team."

I am a "second responder", a member of a Search and Rescue team. The
reason for "second" is because we are not generally called till other
agencies have tried to find the person. Hazmat falls into the same
category because they are not generally called till another agency sees
the situation and rolls them. I am also an COML (Communications Leader
- IS-300 is a pre-req for this.) and a member of the South Central (PA)
Task Force AWG.

I am frightened about the availability of anything that falls into the
category of "emergency services".

In PA most of the fire services are volunteer. Funding for everything
is being cut at almost every level. The 911 hysteria that brought
massive money, some of which was squandered, is over and now it is the
shoe string. Our SAR team operates on a budget of $2,700 a year, yes,
TWENTY SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS. Our team members supply their radios,
clothing, boots, etc and the gas and transportation to searches and
training. Although others get significant dollars it is never enough
even for the most frugal companies and quite frankly, the York,
Lancaster and Lebanon Counties in PA are hard headed Dutchmen
Conservatives that generally get the most out of a buck.

That issue aside a second issue is rampant in the area. More and more
the Emergency Operations Centers are going to VOIP. The internet is not
that reliable! I am not aware of a 911 that has gone to VOIP but
pricing is dictating a look at this.

During a Peach Bottom (nuclear power plant - one of our two in the area
- the other is Three Mile Island) several of the EOC's lost phone, FAX
and radio connectivity (repeater failures) to County EOC because of
thunderstorms and tornados that blew in during the drill. The ham radio
operators at these EOC's and County provided communications to the sites
for both the drill and live events. They happened to be on site for the
drill. The site I was at was vacated except the hams, the government
evaluators and the public works guy because of a fire, all of the other
players in the EOC including the EMC were firemen! A lack of volunteers
means people wear multiple hats.

But let's get to the big item. When the bad day comes, cellular is
worthless. I was at work the day of the earthquake in Virginia, a
couple hundred miles south of us. The ground shook and some masonry
buildings in the area sustained cracks that needed to be repaired. Ten
minutes after the quake cellular was either useless or had up to fifteen
minute waits to place a call. Everyone was on discussing the quake.
And cellular company pronouncements aside, it isn't going to get better,
even if they get more bandwidth that will be eaten up in 2-4 years. The
total migration to cellular, the unlimited use, the tendency for people
to yack when a bad day comes all makes for a disaster. We need
solutions, not cell company hype, not government catering to special
interests, but real solutions that fix problems without introducing
more.

One of the first things cellular companies can do is stop overselling
cellular. The second is end or raise the price significantly on
unlimited plans, both voice and data. Go to what the landlines called,
USS, that is you pay for every minute.... Even if that charge is small,
it will drive usage down.

Otherwise on a bad day people will die waiting for the yackers to get
off the call phone so they can call 911. Hopefully it will not be on
VOIP and the internet is down.


Ralph Brandt

-----Original Message-----
From: Jared Mauch [mailto:jared [at] puck]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 4:15 PM
To: Eric Wieling
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)


On May 2, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Eric Wieling wrote:

>
> I doubt the g729 or GSM codecs used by VoIP and Cell phones can
compare to a POTS line.


This is why many people use g711ulaw or other codec.

Personally I would not work with anyone that doesn't do g711ulaw
(88.2kbit when IP packet overhead added in).

There are other codecs such as G.722.1 & G.722.2 but the support isn't
as broad as g711ulaw/alaw.

Regarding landline service, this can fail for many of the common reasons
it does are the same reasons that IP service may fail. The failure
modes can depend on a variety of circumstances from the physical layer
(e.g.: audible static on the line) that cause your ear to retrain, which
may cause a DSL device to comparably retrain. The same is true for
shared medium such as CATV but this has other problems as well, if not
well isolated, somebody can short out the segment or send garbage at the
wrong channel, etc.

Personally, I'm thinking of ditching my ISDN (gives clear dial tone at a
long-distance from the CO) for something like the Verizon Home Connect
box. Gives a few hours of built-in battery backup, but would fail once
the tower loses power (usually 8-12 hours).

I also am concerned about 911 service. When dialing 911 recently from
my mobile, I should have dialed it from my home phone as I was routed a
few times to get to the right fire dispatch team.

Oh well.

- Jared


ralph.brandt at pateam

May 3, 2012, 8:14 AM

Post #7 of 22 (1598 views)
Permalink
RE: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Yes, those things happen. But there are several such failure points in the POTS system and hundreds in VOIP. I support VOIP, ISDN etc. But I know all too well the failure points...

Ralph Brandt

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Ashworth [mailto:jra [at] baylink]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:25 PM
To: NANOG
Subject: Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeroen van Aart" <jeroen [at] mompl>

> I don't doubt it. However my practical experience is such that 100% of
> the time (I lost count after 20 or so, in a decade) I experienced a
> power failure the phone would still work. I am sure I am not the only
> one.

Sure. (We're not really having this conversation here, are we? :-)

Copper POTS service is centrally powered from a battery plant in the wire
center, which is generally something like -52V nominal at 6000-8000ADC
continuous.

If you get a tool across those busbars uninsulated, it will flash into
plasma much faster than you can blink; this happened at SPBGFLXA89H in
the... mid to late 80s? I no longer remember the details, but the guy
couldn't hear for several days, and the *entire* CO -- 30klines of GTD-5
and 100klines of 5E Remote -- was No Dial Tone for at least 12 hours
while they cleaned it up; SPPD and PCSO were stationed on streetcorners
to take emergency reports.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274


oscar.vives at gmail

May 3, 2012, 8:15 AM

Post #8 of 22 (1588 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Perhaps cell towers can be made to fail sooner, and enter some
emergency mode where only 911 calls get service.



--
--
ℱin del ℳensaje.


eyeronic.design at gmail

May 3, 2012, 9:26 AM

Post #9 of 22 (1590 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Tei <oscar.vives [at] gmail> wrote:
** Perhaps cell towers can be made to fail sooner, and enter some
** emergency mode where only 911 calls get service.
**
**
**
** --

Don't cell companies already provide over-ride codes to various
federal agencies to obtain emergency priority access to cell service?

(**** added just to piss off Valdis)

--
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


eyeronic.design at gmail

May 3, 2012, 9:32 AM

Post #10 of 22 (1592 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

That's precisely where SatCom enters the picture. Cell companies
aren't ever going to undersell their bandwidth...that simply isn't
profitable. SatCom is one of the best ways to plan for communications
outages during times of crisis, especially if you choose a provider
that's outside of your area. Unfortunately, you're going to end up
spending at least one more order of magnitude on *decent* satellite
service than you would spend on cell (unless you only go with a
satphone).

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Brandt, Ralph <ralph.brandt [at] pateam> wrote:
>*SNIP*
>
> During a Peach Bottom (nuclear power plant - one of our two in the area
> - the other is Three Mile Island) several of the EOC's lost phone, FAX
> and radio connectivity (repeater failures) to County EOC because of
> thunderstorms and tornados that blew in during the drill. The ham radio
> operators at these EOC's and County provided communications to the sites
> for both the drill and live events. They happened to be on site for the
> drill. The site I was at was vacated except the hams, the government
> evaluators and the public works guy because of a fire, all of the other
> players in the EOC including the EMC were firemen! A lack of volunteers
> means people wear multiple hats.
>
> But let's get to the big item. When the bad day comes, cellular is
> worthless. I was at work the day of the earthquake in Virginia, a
> couple hundred miles south of us. The ground shook and some masonry
> buildings in the area sustained cracks that needed to be repaired. Ten
> minutes after the quake cellular was either useless or had up to fifteen
> minute waits to place a call. Everyone was on discussing the quake.
> And cellular company pronouncements aside, it isn't going to get better,
> even if they get more bandwidth that will be eaten up in 2-4 years. The
> total migration to cellular, the unlimited use, the tendency for people
> to yack when a bad day comes all makes for a disaster. We need
> solutions, not cell company hype, not government catering to special
> interests, but real solutions that fix problems without introducing
> more.
>
> One of the first things cellular companies can do is stop overselling
> cellular. The second is end or raise the price significantly on
> unlimited plans, both voice and data. Go to what the landlines called,
> USS, that is you pay for every minute.... Even if that charge is small,
> it will drive usage down.
>
> Otherwise on a bad day people will die waiting for the yackers to get
> off the call phone so they can call 911. Hopefully it will not be on
> VOIP and the internet is down.
>
>
> Ralph Brandt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jared Mauch [mailto:jared [at] puck]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 4:15 PM
> To: Eric Wieling
> Cc: NANOG list
> Subject: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)
>
>
> On May 2, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Eric Wieling wrote:
>
>>
>> I doubt the g729 or GSM codecs used by VoIP and Cell phones can
> compare to a POTS line.
>
>
> This is why many people use g711ulaw or other codec.
>
> Personally I would not work with anyone that doesn't do g711ulaw
> (88.2kbit when IP packet overhead added in).
>
> There are other codecs such as G.722.1 & G.722.2 but the support isn't
> as broad as g711ulaw/alaw.
>
> Regarding landline service, this can fail for many of the common reasons
> it does are the same reasons that IP service may fail. The failure
> modes can depend on a variety of circumstances from the physical layer
> (e.g.: audible static on the line) that cause your ear to retrain, which
> may cause a DSL device to comparably retrain. The same is true for
> shared medium such as CATV but this has other problems as well, if not
> well isolated, somebody can short out the segment or send garbage at the
> wrong channel, etc.
>
> Personally, I'm thinking of ditching my ISDN (gives clear dial tone at a
> long-distance from the CO) for something like the Verizon Home Connect
> box. Gives a few hours of built-in battery backup, but would fail once
> the tower loses power (usually 8-12 hours).
>
> I also am concerned about 911 service. When dialing 911 recently from
> my mobile, I should have dialed it from my home phone as I was routed a
> few times to get to the right fire dispatch team.
>
> Oh well.
>
> - Jared
>



--
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


sean at seanharlow

May 3, 2012, 9:35 AM

Post #11 of 22 (1590 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On May 3, 2012, at 12:26, Mike Hale wrote:

> Don't cell companies already provide over-ride codes to various
> federal agencies to obtain emergency priority access to cell service?

That would be the Nationwide Wireless Priority Service. Authorized users can dial *272<destination> to get priority on supported wireless networks. If the landline networks are also backed up, they can make the call to (710) NCS-GETS which is the gateway number for the Government Emergency Telecommunications System which provides the same priority on POTS lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_Wireless_Priority_Service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Emergency_Telecommunications_Service
---
Sean Harlow
sean [at] seanharlow


ralph.brandt at pateam

May 3, 2012, 11:10 AM

Post #12 of 22 (1589 views)
Permalink
RE: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

The problem with this is, MOST 911 CALLS ARE CELLULAR or soon will be.



Ralph Brandt
PA


-----Original Message-----
From: Tei [mailto:oscar.vives [at] gmail]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 11:15 AM
To: NANOG list
Subject: Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)

Perhaps cell towers can be made to fail sooner, and enter some
emergency mode where only 911 calls get service.



--
--
ℱin del ℳensaje.


jra at baylink

May 3, 2012, 11:19 AM

Post #13 of 22 (1584 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralph Brandt" <ralph.brandt [at] pateam>

> The problem with this is, MOST 911 CALLS ARE CELLULAR or soon will be.

{citation-needed}

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra [at] baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274


ralph.brandt at pateam

May 3, 2012, 11:21 AM

Post #14 of 22 (1585 views)
Permalink
RE: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

I spent a week in a PEMA conference last fall. One of the presentations
was from two ILECS and 1 CLEC. The answer we got was, yes we do but no
we can't. Got it?

What I understand after grilling the 5 reps from one company and three
for the other, is they have priority of who can make a call but not in
who can get the system attention. SO till you get the system attention,
you don't go anywhere. The ILEC is not in cell and admitted they had
problems, were working on them, do not have them all solved, do not know
if they can solve them all - they had some credibility. I looked at the
other two as snake oil salesmen....

I was the only one who asked any questions.

Ralph Brandt
York PA 17055


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Hale [mailto:eyeronic.design [at] gmail]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:26 PM
To: Tei
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Tei <oscar.vives [at] gmail> wrote:
** Perhaps cell towers can be made to fail sooner, and enter some
** emergency mode where only 911 calls get service.
**
**
**
** --

Don't cell companies already provide over-ride codes to various
federal agencies to obtain emergency priority access to cell service?

(**** added just to piss off Valdis)

--
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


ralph.brandt at pateam

May 3, 2012, 11:35 AM

Post #15 of 22 (1584 views)
Permalink
RE: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Satcoms are the panacea for every problem until you try them. They too have limited numbers of channels, far lower than cell.

Check the fiasco in Haiti when sat phones were handed out and it took hours to make calls.

Sometimes two tin cans and a string are better....

Ralph Brandt


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Hale [mailto:eyeronic.design [at] gmail]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:32 PM
To: Brandt, Ralph
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)

That's precisely where SatCom enters the picture. Cell companies
aren't ever going to undersell their bandwidth...that simply isn't
profitable. SatCom is one of the best ways to plan for communications
outages during times of crisis, especially if you choose a provider
that's outside of your area. Unfortunately, you're going to end up
spending at least one more order of magnitude on *decent* satellite
service than you would spend on cell (unless you only go with a
satphone).

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Brandt, Ralph <ralph.brandt [at] pateam> wrote:
>*SNIP*
>
> During a Peach Bottom (nuclear power plant - one of our two in the area
> - the other is Three Mile Island) several of the EOC's lost phone, FAX
> and radio connectivity (repeater failures) to County EOC because of
> thunderstorms and tornados that blew in during the drill. The ham radio
> operators at these EOC's and County provided communications to the sites
> for both the drill and live events. They happened to be on site for the
> drill. The site I was at was vacated except the hams, the government
> evaluators and the public works guy because of a fire, all of the other
> players in the EOC including the EMC were firemen! A lack of volunteers
> means people wear multiple hats.
>
> But let's get to the big item. When the bad day comes, cellular is
> worthless. I was at work the day of the earthquake in Virginia, a
> couple hundred miles south of us. The ground shook and some masonry
> buildings in the area sustained cracks that needed to be repaired. Ten
> minutes after the quake cellular was either useless or had up to fifteen
> minute waits to place a call. Everyone was on discussing the quake.
> And cellular company pronouncements aside, it isn't going to get better,
> even if they get more bandwidth that will be eaten up in 2-4 years. The
> total migration to cellular, the unlimited use, the tendency for people
> to yack when a bad day comes all makes for a disaster. We need
> solutions, not cell company hype, not government catering to special
> interests, but real solutions that fix problems without introducing
> more.
>
> One of the first things cellular companies can do is stop overselling
> cellular. The second is end or raise the price significantly on
> unlimited plans, both voice and data. Go to what the landlines called,
> USS, that is you pay for every minute.... Even if that charge is small,
> it will drive usage down.
>
> Otherwise on a bad day people will die waiting for the yackers to get
> off the call phone so they can call 911. Hopefully it will not be on
> VOIP and the internet is down.
>
>
> Ralph Brandt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jared Mauch [mailto:jared [at] puck]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 4:15 PM
> To: Eric Wieling
> Cc: NANOG list
> Subject: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)
>
>
> On May 2, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Eric Wieling wrote:
>
>>
>> I doubt the g729 or GSM codecs used by VoIP and Cell phones can
> compare to a POTS line.
>
>
> This is why many people use g711ulaw or other codec.
>
> Personally I would not work with anyone that doesn't do g711ulaw
> (88.2kbit when IP packet overhead added in).
>
> There are other codecs such as G.722.1 & G.722.2 but the support isn't
> as broad as g711ulaw/alaw.
>
> Regarding landline service, this can fail for many of the common reasons
> it does are the same reasons that IP service may fail. The failure
> modes can depend on a variety of circumstances from the physical layer
> (e.g.: audible static on the line) that cause your ear to retrain, which
> may cause a DSL device to comparably retrain. The same is true for
> shared medium such as CATV but this has other problems as well, if not
> well isolated, somebody can short out the segment or send garbage at the
> wrong channel, etc.
>
> Personally, I'm thinking of ditching my ISDN (gives clear dial tone at a
> long-distance from the CO) for something like the Verizon Home Connect
> box. Gives a few hours of built-in battery backup, but would fail once
> the tower loses power (usually 8-12 hours).
>
> I also am concerned about 911 service. When dialing 911 recently from
> my mobile, I should have dialed it from my home phone as I was routed a
> few times to get to the right fire dispatch team.
>
> Oh well.
>
> - Jared
>



--
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


ralph.brandt at pateam

May 3, 2012, 11:37 AM

Post #16 of 22 (1586 views)
Permalink
RE: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Sean, do you know anyone who has successfully used either to place a
call?

I think the weak spot is when the tower overloads nobody can dial
anything, including the bypass..

Ralph Brandt
Communications Engineer
HP Enterprise Services
Telephone +1 717.506.0802
FAX +1 717.506.4358
Email Ralph.Brandt [at] pateam
5095 Ritter Rd
Mechanicsburg PA 17055


-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Harlow [mailto:sean [at] seanharlow]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:36 PM
To: Mike Hale
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)

On May 3, 2012, at 12:26, Mike Hale wrote:

> Don't cell companies already provide over-ride codes to various
> federal agencies to obtain emergency priority access to cell service?

That would be the Nationwide Wireless Priority Service. Authorized
users can dial *272<destination> to get priority on supported wireless
networks. If the landline networks are also backed up, they can make
the call to (710) NCS-GETS which is the gateway number for the
Government Emergency Telecommunications System which provides the same
priority on POTS lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_Wireless_Priority_Service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Emergency_Telecommunications_Ser
vice
---
Sean Harlow
sean [at] seanharlow


sean at seanharlow

May 3, 2012, 11:43 AM

Post #17 of 22 (1581 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On May 3, 2012, at 14:19, Jay Ashworth wrote:

> {citation-needed}

I don't have any numbers to offer, but given the near universality of cellular phones these days among the adult population I could easily see a majority going for cellular. Car accidents, house fires, and a lot of other types of 911 call are probably almost entirely from mobile. Car accidents and anything else 911-worthy near a busy probably contribute a ton of calls about the same incident (not worthwhile calls, but calls nonetheless). There are also many people, myself included, who do not have a traditional landline. If they don't have VoIP or it's not working for some reason, everything becomes a mobile call.

Again not arguing one side or another, just that there's enough mobile usage that it would seem reasonable either way.
---
Sean Harlow
sean [at] seanharlow


eyeronic.design at gmail

May 3, 2012, 11:53 AM

Post #18 of 22 (1587 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Absolutely. Again, it depends on what service you use, what
contention the provider gives you, and so forth. If you go with a
quality provider and a good service plan, you will not get bumped off
in favor of someone else. Of course, you're paying much more for
service like that, but you really do get what you pay for, especially
when it comes to satellite.

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Brandt, Ralph <ralph.brandt [at] pateam> wrote:
> Satcoms are the panacea for every problem until you try them. They too have limited numbers of channels, far lower than cell.
>
> Check the fiasco in Haiti when sat phones were handed out and it took hours to make calls.
>
> Sometimes two tin cans and a string are better....
>
> Ralph Brandt
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Hale [mailto:eyeronic.design [at] gmail]
> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:32 PM
> To: Brandt, Ralph
> Cc: NANOG list
> Subject: Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)
>
> That's precisely where SatCom enters the picture. Cell companies
> aren't ever going to undersell their bandwidth...that simply isn't
> profitable. SatCom is one of the best ways to plan for communications
> outages during times of crisis, especially if you choose a provider
> that's outside of your area. Unfortunately, you're going to end up
> spending at least one more order of magnitude on *decent* satellite
> service than you would spend on cell (unless you only go with a
> satphone).
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Brandt, Ralph <ralph.brandt [at] pateam> wrote:
>>*SNIP*
>>
>> During a Peach Bottom (nuclear power plant - one of our two in the area
>> - the other is Three Mile Island) several of the EOC's lost phone, FAX
>> and radio connectivity (repeater failures) to County EOC because of
>> thunderstorms and tornados that blew in during the drill. The ham radio
>> operators at these EOC's and County provided communications to the sites
>> for both the drill and live events. They happened to be on site for the
>> drill. The site I was at was vacated except the hams, the government
>> evaluators and the public works guy because of a fire, all of the other
>> players in the EOC including the EMC were firemen! A lack of volunteers
>> means people wear multiple hats.
>>
>> But let's get to the big item. When the bad day comes, cellular is
>> worthless. I was at work the day of the earthquake in Virginia, a
>> couple hundred miles south of us. The ground shook and some masonry
>> buildings in the area sustained cracks that needed to be repaired. Ten
>> minutes after the quake cellular was either useless or had up to fifteen
>> minute waits to place a call. Everyone was on discussing the quake.
>> And cellular company pronouncements aside, it isn't going to get better,
>> even if they get more bandwidth that will be eaten up in 2-4 years. The
>> total migration to cellular, the unlimited use, the tendency for people
>> to yack when a bad day comes all makes for a disaster. We need
>> solutions, not cell company hype, not government catering to special
>> interests, but real solutions that fix problems without introducing
>> more.
>>
>> One of the first things cellular companies can do is stop overselling
>> cellular. The second is end or raise the price significantly on
>> unlimited plans, both voice and data. Go to what the landlines called,
>> USS, that is you pay for every minute.... Even if that charge is small,
>> it will drive usage down.
>>
>> Otherwise on a bad day people will die waiting for the yackers to get
>> off the call phone so they can call 911. Hopefully it will not be on
>> VOIP and the internet is down.
>>
>>
>> Ralph Brandt
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jared Mauch [mailto:jared [at] puck]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 4:15 PM
>> To: Eric Wieling
>> Cc: NANOG list
>> Subject: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)
>>
>>
>> On May 2, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Eric Wieling wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I doubt the g729 or GSM codecs used by VoIP and Cell phones can
>> compare to a POTS line.
>>
>>
>> This is why many people use g711ulaw or other codec.
>>
>> Personally I would not work with anyone that doesn't do g711ulaw
>> (88.2kbit when IP packet overhead added in).
>>
>> There are other codecs such as G.722.1 & G.722.2 but the support isn't
>> as broad as g711ulaw/alaw.
>>
>> Regarding landline service, this can fail for many of the common reasons
>> it does are the same reasons that IP service may fail. The failure
>> modes can depend on a variety of circumstances from the physical layer
>> (e.g.: audible static on the line) that cause your ear to retrain, which
>> may cause a DSL device to comparably retrain. The same is true for
>> shared medium such as CATV but this has other problems as well, if not
>> well isolated, somebody can short out the segment or send garbage at the
>> wrong channel, etc.
>>
>> Personally, I'm thinking of ditching my ISDN (gives clear dial tone at a
>> long-distance from the CO) for something like the Verizon Home Connect
>> box. Gives a few hours of built-in battery backup, but would fail once
>> the tower loses power (usually 8-12 hours).
>>
>> I also am concerned about 911 service. When dialing 911 recently from
>> my mobile, I should have dialed it from my home phone as I was routed a
>> few times to get to the right fire dispatch team.
>>
>> Oh well.
>>
>> - Jared
>>
>
>
>
> --
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0



--
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


sean at seanharlow

May 3, 2012, 12:16 PM

Post #19 of 22 (1585 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On May 3, 2012, at 14:37, Brandt, Ralph wrote:

> Sean, do you know anyone who has successfully used either to place a
> call?

Not to my knowledge. Due to some family in government I'm sure I know someone who's authorized for one or the other, but I can't say the topic's ever come up. I'm just a telecom geek who gets bored and reads obscure documentation.

> I think the weak spot is when the tower overloads nobody can dial
> anything, including the bypass..


That's certainly true, I don't know much about CDMA but in GSM if the RACH channel is flooded the phone won't be able to get through with a channel request and thus won't be able to do much of anything useful. I believe a DoS based on this was demonstrated a few years back, so it is a legitimate concern.

The GAO actually did a report on both GETS and WPS a few years ago (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09822.pdf). Report pages 63-64 (PDF pages 68-69) show completion rates during major events of the last decade, though comparisons to normal calling in the affected areas during the same period are not available. Assuming that normal calls did have completion problems, it seems that GETS works well and WPS works until the cells get completely flooded as happened during the '09 Inauguration.
---
Sean Harlow
sean [at] seanharlow


lsc at prgmr

May 3, 2012, 12:25 PM

Post #20 of 22 (1569 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 10:59:47AM -0400, Brandt, Ralph wrote:
> One of the first things cellular companies can do is stop overselling
> cellular. The second is end or raise the price significantly on
> unlimited plans, both voice and data. Go to what the landlines called,
> USS, that is you pay for every minute.... Even if that charge is small,
> it will drive usage down.
>
> Otherwise on a bad day people will die waiting for the yackers to get
> off the call phone so they can call 911. Hopefully it will not be on
> VOIP and the internet is down.

A few years back, I was working late on the top floor of one of the Yahoo
mission college buildings during an earthquake. It felt really dramatic;
I was on the 9th floor and the lights were swinging back and forth and
yeah. So, I went outside (who knows how bad it was) figured out it
wasn't that bad, and so before going home, I decided to call some people
to tell them I was okay. Of course, it was as you describe, I couldn't
get through.

what did I do? I sent a text message. It got through and I got an
answer back in about the usual amount of time it takes someone to respond
to a sms text.

It seems like SMS might be a reasonable backup during these periods of
high load.


jof at thejof

May 3, 2012, 12:32 PM

Post #21 of 22 (1569 views)
Permalink
Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Luke S. Crawford <lsc [at] prgmr> wrote:
> On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 10:59:47AM -0400, Brandt, Ralph wrote:
>> One of the first things cellular companies can do is stop overselling
>> cellular. The second is end or raise the price significantly on
>> unlimited plans, both voice and data. Go to what the landlines called,
>> USS, that is you pay for every minute.... Even if that charge is small,
>> it will drive usage down.
>>
>> Otherwise on a bad day people will die waiting for the yackers to get
>> off the call phone so they can call 911. Hopefully it will not be on
>> VOIP and the internet is down.
>
> A few years back, I was working late on the top floor of one of the Yahoo
> mission college buildings during an earthquake. It felt really dramatic;
> I was on the 9th floor and the lights were swinging back and forth and
> yeah. So, I went outside (who knows how bad it was) figured out it
> wasn't that bad, and so before going home, I decided to call some people
> to tell them I was okay. Of course, it was as you describe, I couldn't
> get through.
>
> what did I do? I sent a text message. It got through and I got an
> answer back in about the usual amount of time it takes someone to respond
> to a sms text.
>
> It seems like SMS might be a reasonable backup during these periods of
> high load.

Good point. SMSes seem pretty congestion friendly since they're
usually riding control channels anyway, and can be queued up and
delivered when capacity is there (no channel reservation needed).

--j


ralph.brandt at pateam

May 3, 2012, 12:40 PM

Post #22 of 22 (1569 views)
Permalink
RE: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Yep. What you experienced is exactly what I expected. And yes, sms MAY
make it when a call will not. In SAR demos we tell people, lost in the
woods, if cell doesn't work, send a message, hold the phone as high as
you can and slowly move it a couple feet back and forth.

I do lots of public service events in the Alleghenies (the PA portion of
the Appalachians) where cell towers are either non-existant, far away or
hidden by another hill.

I know this is off topic but if it saves a life, so be it.

When in this kind of area, TURN THE PHONE OFF WHEN YOU DON"T NEED IT.
My battery goes down in3-4 hours in the woods where in my home area it
stays up for nearly 30 hours. It goes on high power hunting for a tower
that is not there.

If you are planning to use a cell for emergencies, have an alternate way
to charge it. I have a home made 8 AA cell pack with a cigarette
lighter well that I carry - I can do a couple recharges. It will also
operate my ham radio Hand held for days which is far better to get me
out.

BTW if you are using a GPS, take at least 3 sets of spare batteries.
Other good things, a whistle, a mirror (to check your hair - you want to
look good for the searchers - grin), a garbage bag for an emergency
poncho and water. If you can read a compass and map they are good but
if you don't know what magnetic north is, take a class if you plan to be
in the wooded areas. It is also good to carry a snake bite kit, .38 and
9MM ones are great. The woods are fun.




Ralph Brandt


-----Original Message-----
From: Luke S. Crawford [mailto:lsc [at] prgmr]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 3:26 PM
To: NANOG list
Subject: Re: VoIP vs POTS (was Re: Operation Ghost Click)

On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 10:59:47AM -0400, Brandt, Ralph wrote:
> One of the first things cellular companies can do is stop overselling
> cellular. The second is end or raise the price significantly on
> unlimited plans, both voice and data. Go to what the landlines
called,
> USS, that is you pay for every minute.... Even if that charge is
small,
> it will drive usage down.
>
> Otherwise on a bad day people will die waiting for the yackers to get
> off the call phone so they can call 911. Hopefully it will not be on
> VOIP and the internet is down.

A few years back, I was working late on the top floor of one of the
Yahoo
mission college buildings during an earthquake. It felt really
dramatic;
I was on the 9th floor and the lights were swinging back and forth and
yeah. So, I went outside (who knows how bad it was) figured out it
wasn't that bad, and so before going home, I decided to call some people
to tell them I was okay. Of course, it was as you describe, I couldn't
get through.

what did I do? I sent a text message. It got through and I got an
answer back in about the usual amount of time it takes someone to
respond
to a sms text.

It seems like SMS might be a reasonable backup during these periods of
high load.

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