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POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click)

 

 

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jared at puck

May 2, 2012, 8:29 PM

Post #1 of 15 (1369 views)
Permalink
POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click)

On May 2, 2012, at 9:42 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:

> Many states have regulations regarding how long dial tone needs to last
> during a power outage. Iowa's PUC (the IUB) requires at least two hours of
> backup power. We design ours for eight hours.

One thing of note that I've been tracking is this:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-16/landline-service-becoming-obsolete/54321184/1

I'm somewhat dubious about the following claims on the part of the carrier. This is a carrier that wants to meter your cellular data but provides wifi service inferior to the cellular data to "offload" their wireless network.

-- snip --
"Bill sponsors and phone companies including AT&T say deregulating land-line phone service will increase competition and allow carriers to invest in better technology rather than expand a dying service. Some consumer organizations fear the change will hurt affordable service, especially in rural areas."
-- snip --

- Jared


ralph.brandt at pateam

May 3, 2012, 8:17 AM

Post #2 of 15 (1334 views)
Permalink
RE: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Connecticut has such a bill pending. My suggestion to people there, Get
a ham radio license and a 2 meter transceiver with a car adapter.......




Ralph Brandt
York PA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jared Mauch [mailto:jared [at] puck]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:29 PM
To: Frank Bulk
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click)


On May 2, 2012, at 9:42 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:

> Many states have regulations regarding how long dial tone needs to
last
> during a power outage. Iowa's PUC (the IUB) requires at least two
hours of
> backup power. We design ours for eight hours.

One thing of note that I've been tracking is this:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-16/landline-service-be
coming-obsolete/54321184/1

I'm somewhat dubious about the following claims on the part of the
carrier. This is a carrier that wants to meter your cellular data but
provides wifi service inferior to the cellular data to "offload" their
wireless network.

-- snip --
"Bill sponsors and phone companies including AT&T say deregulating
land-line phone service will increase competition and allow carriers to
invest in better technology rather than expand a dying service. Some
consumer organizations fear the change will hurt affordable service,
especially in rural areas."
-- snip --

- Jared


me at anuragbhatia

May 4, 2012, 2:11 AM

Post #3 of 15 (1333 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Curious to know if naked DSL (DSL without dialtone & POTS link) is common
in North America? We don't have that available here in India yet apart from
fact that PSTN <<>> IP connectivity is banned which brings up back to
GSM/CDMA and POTS option.

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Brandt, Ralph <ralph.brandt [at] pateam>wrote:

> Connecticut has such a bill pending. My suggestion to people there, Get
> a ham radio license and a 2 meter transceiver with a car adapter.......
>
>
>
>
> Ralph Brandt
> York PA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jared Mauch [mailto:jared [at] puck]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:29 PM
> To: Frank Bulk
> Cc: NANOG list
> Subject: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click)
>
>
> On May 2, 2012, at 9:42 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:
>
> > Many states have regulations regarding how long dial tone needs to
> last
> > during a power outage. Iowa's PUC (the IUB) requires at least two
> hours of
> > backup power. We design ours for eight hours.
>
> One thing of note that I've been tracking is this:
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-16/landline-service-be
> coming-obsolete/54321184/1
>
> I'm somewhat dubious about the following claims on the part of the
> carrier. This is a carrier that wants to meter your cellular data but
> provides wifi service inferior to the cellular data to "offload" their
> wireless network.
>
> -- snip --
> "Bill sponsors and phone companies including AT&T say deregulating
> land-line phone service will increase competition and allow carriers to
> invest in better technology rather than expand a dying service. Some
> consumer organizations fear the change will hurt affordable service,
> especially in rural areas."
> -- snip --
>
> - Jared
>
>


--

Anurag Bhatia
anuragbhatia.com
or simply - http://[2001:470:26:78f::5] if you are on IPv6 connected
network!

Linkedin <http://in.linkedin.com/in/anuragbhatia21> |
Twitter<https://twitter.com/anurag_bhatia>|
Google+ <https://plus.google.com/118280168625121532854>


jabley at hopcount

May 6, 2012, 11:08 AM

Post #4 of 15 (1318 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On 2012-05-04, at 09:11, Anurag Bhatia wrote:

> Curious to know if naked DSL (DSL without dialtone & POTS link) is common
> in North America?

It's common in Bell Canada's service region in Ontario and Québec. They still provide dial tone on each pair, though, to help techs avoid re-using apparently active pairs when they're out and about (and I think each naked pair is still run through a DMS so they can get their full set of line stats through the normal management platforms).


Joe


joe at nethead

May 6, 2012, 12:17 PM

Post #5 of 15 (1326 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On 2012-05-04, at 09:11, Anurag Bhatia wrote:

> Curious to know if naked DSL (DSL without dialtone & POTS link) is common
> in North America?

Very common for business (retail, etc.) and I have it at home. We often
call it a dry-loop. No battery or dial tone is common. Some LECs do
deliver with dialtone so the customer can call 911 (emergency) in a pinch.

--
Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474


stephen at sprunk

May 6, 2012, 12:44 PM

Post #6 of 15 (1317 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On 04-May-12 04:11, Anurag Bhatia wrote:
> Curious to know if naked DSL (DSL without dialtone & POTS link) is common
> in North America?

The availability of naked DSL varies from state to state within the US,
depending on how successful the telcos have been at bribing^Wlobbying
the various state regulators and politicians. Even where not required,
some telcos have ended up offering it anyway due to competition from
other service providers, eg. cable, fixed wireless or mobile wireless.

> PSTN <<>> IP connectivity is banned [in India] which brings up back to
> GSM/CDMA and POTS option.

The naked DSL debate isn't about VoIP; it's really about the mass
adoption of mobile phones. Some telcos see DSL as an opportunity to
force customers to keep paying for landlines they never use anymore.
This is a big deal because they have a lot of expensive equipment
they're still paying for--much of it bought to handle the massive influx
of dial-up modem users in the 1990s--that is generating less and less
revenue every year.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Attachments: smime.p7s (2.26 KB)


ralph.brandt at pateam

May 7, 2012, 1:06 PM

Post #7 of 15 (1315 views)
Permalink
RE: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

I am not sure who uses DSL here. I have two people I know who use it,
both are dissatisfied and if they had an alternative it woud not be.



It is slow, unreliable compared to cable.



Ralph Brandt

Communications Engineer

HP Enterprise Services

Telephone +1 717.506.0802

FAX +1 717.506.4358

Email Ralph.Brandt [at] pateam <mailto:Ralph.Brandt [at] pateam>

5095 Ritter Rd

Mechanicsburg PA 17055



From: Anurag Bhatia [mailto:me [at] anuragbhatia]
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 5:12 AM
To: Brandt, Ralph
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click)



Curious to know if naked DSL (DSL without dialtone & POTS link) is
common in North America? We don't have that available here in India yet
apart from fact that PSTN <<>> IP connectivity is banned which brings up
back to GSM/CDMA and POTS option.

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Brandt, Ralph <ralph.brandt [at] pateam>
wrote:

Connecticut has such a bill pending. My suggestion to people there, Get
a ham radio license and a 2 meter transceiver with a car adapter.......




Ralph Brandt
York PA



-----Original Message-----
From: Jared Mauch [mailto:jared [at] puck]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:29 PM
To: Frank Bulk
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click)


On May 2, 2012, at 9:42 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:

> Many states have regulations regarding how long dial tone needs to
last
> during a power outage. Iowa's PUC (the IUB) requires at least two
hours of
> backup power. We design ours for eight hours.

One thing of note that I've been tracking is this:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-16/landline-service-be
coming-obsolete/54321184/1
<http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-16/landline-service-b
e%0d%0acoming-obsolete/54321184/1>

I'm somewhat dubious about the following claims on the part of the
carrier. This is a carrier that wants to meter your cellular data but
provides wifi service inferior to the cellular data to "offload" their
wireless network.

-- snip --
"Bill sponsors and phone companies including AT&T say deregulating
land-line phone service will increase competition and allow carriers to
invest in better technology rather than expand a dying service. Some
consumer organizations fear the change will hurt affordable service,
especially in rural areas."
-- snip --

- Jared







--



Anurag Bhatia

anuragbhatia.com <http://anuragbhatia.com>

or simply - http://[2001:470:26:78f::5] if you are on IPv6 connected
network!



Linkedin <http://in.linkedin.com/in/anuragbhatia21> | Twitter
<https://twitter.com/anurag_bhatia> | Google+
<https://plus.google.com/118280168625121532854>


jeroen at mompl

May 7, 2012, 2:20 PM

Post #8 of 15 (1310 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Brandt, Ralph wrote:
> I am not sure who uses DSL here. I have two people I know who use it,
> both are dissatisfied and if they had an alternative it woud not be.

> It is slow, unreliable compared to cable.

That's a rather bold statement which I find hard to believe. Do you have
any data to back it up?

Haven't had much problems with DSL. In fact my current service (cruzio)
has been very stable. With he only notable outage in recent years being
the one that was caused by some cable being cut somewhere in Southern
California (rather recent actually).

I think with cable you're stuck with the local monopolist aren't you?

Regards,
Jeroen

--
Earthquake Magnitude: 4.1
Date: Monday, May 7, 2012 13:19:36 UTC
Location: southern Iran
Latitude: 27.0547; Longitude: 56.4356
Depth: 35.00 km


jsw at inconcepts

May 7, 2012, 4:26 PM

Post #9 of 15 (1310 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Jared Mauch <jared [at] puck> wrote:
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-16/landline-service-becoming-obsolete/54321184/1

Indiana is doing away with its requirement that the incumbent LECs
supply voice service to rural areas. Indiana also used to require a
telephone, and posted emergency numbers for the nearest fire, police,
and ambulance service (or 911) near any swimming pool. The entire
section of state code regarding residential swimming pools has now
been eliminated. A victory for rural swimming-pool owners everywhere,
now people can drown in home swimming pools with no land lines nearby
to call for help.

--
Jeff S Wheeler <jsw [at] inconcepts>
Sr Network Operator  /  Innovative Network Concepts


hrlinneweh at sbcglobal

May 9, 2012, 8:44 AM

Post #10 of 15 (1293 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Premature and very dangerous move, the public is at great risk, only Sat phones seem
to work when there is a natural disaster. Cell phones for the most part can't even connect
to 911....

-henry



________________________________
From: Stephen Sprunk <stephen [at] sprunk>
To: nanog [at] nanog
Sent: Sunday, May 6, 2012 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click)

On 04-May-12 04:11, Anurag Bhatia wrote:
> Curious to know if naked DSL (DSL without dialtone & POTS link) is common
> in North America?

The availability of naked DSL varies from state to state within the US,
depending on how successful the telcos have been at bribing^Wlobbying
the various state regulators and politicians.  Even where not required,
some telcos have ended up offering it anyway due to competition from
other service providers, eg. cable, fixed wireless or mobile wireless.

> PSTN <<>> IP connectivity is banned [in India] which brings up back to
> GSM/CDMA and POTS option.

The naked DSL debate isn't about VoIP; it's really about the mass
adoption of mobile phones.  Some telcos see DSL as an opportunity to
force customers to keep paying for landlines they never use anymore.
This is a big deal because they have a lot of expensive equipment
they're still paying for--much of it bought to handle the massive influx
of dial-up modem users in the 1990s--that is generating less and less
revenue every year.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk        "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723        "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking


randy at psg

May 9, 2012, 8:54 AM

Post #11 of 15 (1293 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

> Premature and very dangerous move, the public is at great risk, only
> Sat phones seem to work when there is a natural disaster. Cell phones
> for the most part can't even connect to 911....

tohoku quake
o land voice phones did not work
o mobile phone voice did not work
o mobile phone text did not work
o land ip worked, adsl, ftth, ...
o mobile phone data worked!

you could send email but not make a voice call

just a data point

randy


me at anuragbhatia

May 9, 2012, 9:11 AM

Post #12 of 15 (1295 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Randy Bush <randy [at] psg> wrote:

> > Premature and very dangerous move, the public is at great risk, only
> > Sat phones seem to work when there is a natural disaster. Cell phones
> > for the most part can't even connect to 911....
>
> tohoku quake
> o land voice phones did not work
> o mobile phone voice did not work
> o mobile phone text did not work
> o land ip worked, adsl, ftth, ...
> o mobile phone data worked!
>
> you could send email but not make a voice call
>
> How will you exactly "connect to internet" during such massive downtime? I
mean mobile data is dead, and with dead landline I assume cable broken -
then how exactly one can send email? :)

> just a data point
>
> randy
>
>


--

Anurag Bhatia
anuragbhatia.com
or simply - http://[2001:470:26:78f::5] if you are on IPv6 connected
network!

Linkedin <http://in.linkedin.com/in/anuragbhatia21> |
Twitter<https://twitter.com/anurag_bhatia>|
Google+ <https://plus.google.com/118280168625121532854>


randy at psg

May 9, 2012, 9:14 AM

Post #13 of 15 (1291 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

>>> Premature and very dangerous move, the public is at great risk, only
>>> Sat phones seem to work when there is a natural disaster. Cell phones
>>> for the most part can't even connect to 911....
>>
>> tohoku quake
>> o land voice phones did not work
>> o mobile phone voice did not work
>> o mobile phone text did not work
>> o land ip worked, adsl, ftth, ...
>> o mobile phone data worked!
>>
>> you could send email but not make a voice call
>>
>> How will you exactly "connect to internet" during such massive downtime? I
> mean mobile data is dead, and with dead landline I assume cable broken -
> then how exactly one can send email? :)

perhaps you should read a bit more carefully. mobile data was not dead,
mobile voice was. land voice was dead, land data was not.

randy


me at anuragbhatia

May 9, 2012, 9:17 AM

Post #14 of 15 (1293 views)
Permalink
Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

You wrote 0 or o before everything and I felt you mean "zero".


Never mind. Thanks!

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Randy Bush <randy [at] psg> wrote:

> >>> Premature and very dangerous move, the public is at great risk, only
> >>> Sat phones seem to work when there is a natural disaster. Cell phones
> >>> for the most part can't even connect to 911....
> >>
> >> tohoku quake
> >> o land voice phones did not work
> >> o mobile phone voice did not work
> >> o mobile phone text did not work
> >> o land ip worked, adsl, ftth, ...
> >> o mobile phone data worked!
> >>
> >> you could send email but not make a voice call
> >>
> >> How will you exactly "connect to internet" during such massive
> downtime? I
> > mean mobile data is dead, and with dead landline I assume cable broken -
> > then how exactly one can send email? :)
>
> perhaps you should read a bit more carefully. mobile data was not dead,
> mobile voice was. land voice was dead, land data was not.
>
> randy
>



--

Anurag Bhatia
anuragbhatia.com
or simply - http://[2001:470:26:78f::5] if you are on IPv6 connected
network!

Linkedin <http://in.linkedin.com/in/anuragbhatia21> |
Twitter<https://twitter.com/anurag_bhatia>|
Google+ <https://plus.google.com/118280168625121532854>


SNaslund at medline

May 9, 2012, 9:23 AM

Post #15 of 15 (1291 views)
Permalink
RE: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click) [In reply to]

Does not matter much when few people are using home landlines and even fewer own sat phones.

Steven Naslund

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Linneweh [mailto:hrlinneweh [at] sbcglobal]
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:45 AM
To: Stephen Sprunk; nanog [at] nanog
Subject: Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click)

Premature and very dangerous move, the public is at great risk, only Sat phones seem
to work when there is a natural disaster. Cell phones for the most part can't even connect
to 911....

-henry



________________________________
From: Stephen Sprunk <stephen [at] sprunk>
To: nanog [at] nanog
Sent: Sunday, May 6, 2012 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: POTS Ending (Re: Operation Ghost Click)

On 04-May-12 04:11, Anurag Bhatia wrote:
> Curious to know if naked DSL (DSL without dialtone & POTS link) is common
> in North America?

The availability of naked DSL varies from state to state within the US,
depending on how successful the telcos have been at bribing^Wlobbying
the various state regulators and politicians.  Even where not required,
some telcos have ended up offering it anyway due to competition from
other service providers, eg. cable, fixed wireless or mobile wireless.

> PSTN <<>> IP connectivity is banned [in India] which brings up back to
> GSM/CDMA and POTS option.

The naked DSL debate isn't about VoIP; it's really about the mass
adoption of mobile phones.  Some telcos see DSL as an opportunity to
force customers to keep paying for landlines they never use anymore.
This is a big deal because they have a lot of expensive equipment
they're still paying for--much of it bought to handle the massive influx
of dial-up modem users in the 1990s--that is generating less and less
revenue every year.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk        "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723        "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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