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Squeezing IPs out of ARIN

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admin at thecpaneladmin

Apr 24, 2012, 10:32 AM

Post #1 of 50 (993 views)
Permalink

Squeezing IPs out of ARIN

Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
allocation they are requesting that we provide customer names for
existing allocations, which is information that will take a while to
obtain. They are insisting that this is standard process and something
that everyone does when requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do
this?

jof at thejof

Apr 24, 2012, 10:47 AM

Post #2 of 50 (970 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM, <admin [at] thecpaneladmin> wrote:
> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user allocation
> they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing allocations,
> which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are insisting
> that this is standard process and something that everyone does when
> requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?

Indeed. It's worked this way for a long time.

When starting a new organization, there's a bit of a chicken and egg
problem with IP space. If anyone could get IP space just for asking
for it, it would have been consumed too quickly. So, organizations
must first get some space assigned to them from an upstream provider
and begin using it.
At some point the current usage and growth rate of the assigned space
will justify a direct allocation.

Then, you can renumber into your new space and be totally independent.

Cheers,
jof

streiner at cluebyfour

Apr 24, 2012, 11:12 AM

Post #3 of 50 (965 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, admin [at] thecpaneladmin wrote:

> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user allocation
> they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing allocations,
> which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are insisting
> that this is standard process and something that everyone does when
> requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?

Now that we're getting down to the bottom of the IPv4 barrel, the
amount of documentation and justification needed to get v4 addresses from
the RIRs has increased. Expect any v4 requests to be scrutinized closely.
This is not news, and at this point, it should not come as a surprise to
anyone.

IPv6 address blocks are pretty easy to get ;)

jms

owen at delong

Apr 24, 2012, 11:14 AM

Post #4 of 50 (964 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Apr 24, 2012, at 10:47 AM, Jonathan Lassoff wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM, <admin [at] thecpaneladmin> wrote:
>> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user allocation
>> they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing allocations,
>> which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are insisting
>> that this is standard process and something that everyone does when
>> requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
>
> Indeed. It's worked this way for a long time.
>
> When starting a new organization, there's a bit of a chicken and egg
> problem with IP space. If anyone could get IP space just for asking
> for it, it would have been consumed too quickly. So, organizations
> must first get some space assigned to them from an upstream provider
> and begin using it.
> At some point the current usage and growth rate of the assigned space
> will justify a direct allocation.
>
> Then, you can renumber into your new space and be totally independent.
>
> Cheers,
> jof

That's not entirely true. What you say applies to one possible way for an
ISP to get an allocation. It does not apply at all to end-users.

Owen

jlewis at lewis

Apr 24, 2012, 11:24 AM

Post #5 of 50 (971 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 admin [at] thecpaneladmin wrote:

> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user allocation
> they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing allocations,
> which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are insisting
> that this is standard process and something that everyone does when
> requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?

If you can't [easily] tell ARIN who's using your current IP space, then
you're probably not doing a very good job of managing that space, which
begs the question, do you really need more?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route
Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are
Atlantic Net |
_________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________

jof at thejof

Apr 24, 2012, 11:38 AM

Post #6 of 50 (967 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Owen DeLong <owen [at] delong> wrote:
> That's not entirely true. What you say applies to one possible way for an
> ISP to get an allocation. It does not apply at all to end-users.

Even for end-user allocations, they would still need to fulfill the
requirements of 4.3.3 in the ARIN NRPM
(https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four33), no?

I suppose for "immediate need" assignments, this can be short
circuited, but from what I know those are pretty rare.

Am I missing something?

Cheers,
jof

stephen at sprunk

Apr 24, 2012, 11:58 AM

Post #7 of 50 (970 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On 24-Apr-12 12:32, admin [at] thecpaneladmin wrote:
> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
> allocation they are requesting that we provide customer names for
> existing allocations, which is information that will take a while to
> obtain.

There are no "end-user allocations". Allocations go to ISPs;
assignments go to end-users.

Which are you? From the sound of it, you're an ISP requesting an
allocation, and ARIN is requesting documentation of the assignments
you've made to end users from your previous allocation(s) to verify you
really need more--as required by community policy.

If you're doing an even marginally competent job of managing your
previous allocation(s), this data should be readily available in /some/
form, and providing it to ARIN should require little more effort than
pinging your lawyers to verify the appropriate NDA is in place.

If you're /not/ doing a marginally competent job of managing your
previous allocation(s), you're not going to get more until you learn to
do a better job of it. In my experience, going through that learning
experience will uncover a lot of unused space that will likely make your
current request moot (for now). And that's a big part of the point.

> They are insisting that this is standard process and something that
> everyone does when requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?

Everyone /should/ be required to provide documentation of justification
for all requests to any RIR. If you're aware of anyone who /hasn't/,
let us know so we can beat up the RIR in question.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Attachments:

smime.p7s (2.26 KB)

owen at delong

Apr 24, 2012, 12:00 PM

Post #8 of 50 (965 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Apr 24, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Jonathan Lassoff wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Owen DeLong <owen [at] delong> wrote:
>> That's not entirely true. What you say applies to one possible way for an
>> ISP to get an allocation. It does not apply at all to end-users.
>
> Even for end-user allocations, they would still need to fulfill the
> requirements of 4.3.3 in the ARIN NRPM
> (https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four33), no?
>

Yes, but, that utilization can be documented need for X hosts to be numbered in an initial
deployment, it does not have to be X existing hosts numbered from some other set of
resources. It can also be made up of hosts numbered from RFC-1918 space which now
need globally unique addresses for whatever reason.

> I suppose for "immediate need" assignments, this can be short
> circuited, but from what I know those are pretty rare.
>

Not all that rare, but, yes, relatively rare.

> Am I missing something?
>

I'm not sure. I know that I have no trouble getting appropriate sized assignments for
my end-user clients with appropriate justification of their needs without them necessarily
having existing space from ARIN or any other entity.

I know that the ARIN process can, on occasion be tricky to navigate if you don't
understand the subtleties of how some of the terminology is defined and that people
often use terms which have very specific meanings to ARIN staff members to have
a much broader meaning in what they are intending to say. I know that often leads
to misunderstandings which make the process even more difficult.

Owen

bill at herrin

Apr 24, 2012, 2:48 PM

Post #9 of 50 (952 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On 4/24/12, admin [at] thecpaneladmin <admin [at] thecpaneladmin> wrote:
> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
> allocation they are requesting that we provide customer names for
> existing allocations, which is information that will take a while to
> obtain. They are insisting that this is standard process and something
> that everyone does when requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do
> this?

First, distinguish whether you're looking for an ISP allocation or an
end-user assignment.

If you're an end user then you're not allocating IP addresses to
customers. I know you think you are, but trust me: you're not. You're
assigning a block of addresses to 20 servers in the computer room and
a block of addresses to 50 PCs on the LAN, and so forth. Where you
claim servers connected to the Internet, expect to provide a list of
current IPs or URLs which you claim will be moved onto the new
addresses.

You don't plan to use NAT anywhere because real IP addresses are
better. Right? And if you have a customer at site B then you're doing
the same thing at site B: X servers here, Y desktops there. Not at
customer B, at _your site_ B.

Also, you're multihoming. You already requested and received an ASN
and you've provided a copy of bills from two different Internet
vendors both listing your business name and location. Because if
you're not multihoming then you have to have many many more computers.
So many computers, in fact, that you'd have to be crazy not to
multihome.

If you're an ISP, the rules are a little different. A few of your
addresses will be specified as above but most will be listed as
"assigned to Customer XYZ, address, name, phone number." Expect to
provide customer name, address, contact name, contact email and phone
number. If you don't wanna, you don't get to play at national registry
level. Go get IPs from your upstream.

For your largest customer assignments, expect to also present some
basic documentation of their use in the same form as above: 50 PCs on
the LAN, 20 servers in the computer room, etc. Because that's what the
customer gave you to justify receiving those addresses. Pursuant to
ARIN policy which as an ISP you follow. Right?

Regards,
Bill Herrin

--
William D. Herrin ................ herrin [at] dirtside bill [at] herrin
3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
Falls Church, VA 22042-3004

jbates at brightok

Apr 24, 2012, 9:57 PM

Post #10 of 50 (952 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On 4/24/2012 2:00 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
> I know that the ARIN process can, on occasion be tricky to navigate if you don't
> understand the subtleties of how some of the terminology is defined and that people
> often use terms which have very specific meanings to ARIN staff members to have
> a much broader meaning in what they are intending to say. I know that often leads
> to misunderstandings which make the process even more difficult.

Yeah. Let's not forget that if you have 120 management devices (wifi
backhaul/switches/waps) and a ton of customers with /32 assignments and
you are renumbering from provider assigned space you gathered over many
years into your own initial ARIN assignment, they want:

1. equipment type and info for each management device
2. customer info for each /32 assignment

Tell me what ISP can legally and ethically give out their customer base
information? Don't get me wrong. I'm sure small guys don't think twice
about it, accumulating all the information and handing it over to ARIN
thinking they have no choice (the responses from ARIN leaves one with
that impression; you want the address space, you WILL give us this).

I sometimes wonder what happens to that information; if it sits around
in an archive somewhere in the vast digital repositories of ARIN
awaiting someone to steal it.

Jack

dmiller at tiggee

Apr 24, 2012, 11:10 PM

Post #11 of 50 (950 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On 4/25/2012 12:57 AM, Jack Bates wrote:
> On 4/24/2012 2:00 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> I know that the ARIN process can, on occasion be tricky to navigate
>> if you don't
>> understand the subtleties of how some of the terminology is defined
>> and that people
>> often use terms which have very specific meanings to ARIN staff
>> members to have
>> a much broader meaning in what they are intending to say. I know that
>> often leads
>> to misunderstandings which make the process even more difficult.
>
> Yeah. Let's not forget that if you have 120 management devices (wifi
> backhaul/switches/waps) and a ton of customers with /32 assignments
> and you are renumbering from provider assigned space you gathered over
> many years into your own initial ARIN assignment, they want:
>
> 1. equipment type and info for each management device
> 2. customer info for each /32 assignment
>
> Tell me what ISP can legally and ethically give out their customer
> base information? Don't get me wrong. I'm sure small guys don't think
> twice about it, accumulating all the information and handing it over
> to ARIN thinking they have no choice (the responses from ARIN leaves
> one with that impression; you want the address space, you WILL give us
> this).
>
> I sometimes wonder what happens to that information; if it sits around
> in an archive somewhere in the vast digital repositories of ARIN
> awaiting someone to steal it.
>
> Jack
>

The ARIN Privacy Policy covers information submitted for address
justifications:
https://www.arin.net/privacy.html

-DMM

jmaimon at ttec

Apr 25, 2012, 3:23 AM

Post #12 of 50 (945 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

admin [at] thecpaneladmin wrote:
> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
> allocation they are requesting that we provide customer names for
> existing allocations, which is information that will take a while to
> obtain. They are insisting that this is standard process and something
> that everyone does when requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
>
>

ARIN does not require you or your customers to use NAT.

If you have customers, you are an ISP and need an allocation.

SWIP everything you do.

Produce a common format form that must be completed before any addresses
are assigned to anyone. On this your fortitude will be tested without end.

Justifiable, documented and responsible utilization is rewarded with
additional resources (for the next 1-4 years), so give your customers
what they can document their need for.

Joe

kenneth.mcrae at dreamhost

Apr 25, 2012, 8:22 AM

Post #13 of 50 (944 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

Negative.. I have never had to provide end user information. I have been
required to provide utilization information. I am sure this "policy" is
and add-on to make it more difficult to prevent hoarding..

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Jonathan Lassoff <jof [at] thejof> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM, <admin [at] thecpaneladmin> wrote:
> > Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
> allocation
> > they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing
> allocations,
> > which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are insisting
> > that this is standard process and something that everyone does when
> > requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
>
> Indeed. It's worked this way for a long time.
>
> When starting a new organization, there's a bit of a chicken and egg
> problem with IP space. If anyone could get IP space just for asking
> for it, it would have been consumed too quickly. So, organizations
> must first get some space assigned to them from an upstream provider
> and begin using it.
> At some point the current usage and growth rate of the assigned space
> will justify a direct allocation.
>
> Then, you can renumber into your new space and be totally independent.
>
> Cheers,
> jof
>
>

--
Best Regards,

Kenneth McRae
*Sr. Network Engineer*
kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost
Ph: 323-375-3814
www.dreamhost.com

owen at delong

Apr 25, 2012, 8:28 AM

Post #14 of 50 (938 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:23 AM, Joe Maimon wrote:

>
>
> admin [at] thecpaneladmin wrote:
>> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
>> allocation they are requesting that we provide customer names for
>> existing allocations, which is information that will take a while to
>> obtain. They are insisting that this is standard process and something
>> that everyone does when requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
>>
>>
>
> ARIN does not require you or your customers to use NAT.
>
> If you have customers, you are an ISP and need an allocation.
>
> SWIP everything you do.
>
RWHOIS is a perfectly valid alternative to SWIP.

Owen

owen at delong

Apr 25, 2012, 8:31 AM

Post #15 of 50 (936 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Apr 24, 2012, at 9:57 PM, Jack Bates wrote:

> On 4/24/2012 2:00 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> I know that the ARIN process can, on occasion be tricky to navigate if you don't
>> understand the subtleties of how some of the terminology is defined and that people
>> often use terms which have very specific meanings to ARIN staff members to have
>> a much broader meaning in what they are intending to say. I know that often leads
>> to misunderstandings which make the process even more difficult.
>
> Yeah. Let's not forget that if you have 120 management devices (wifi backhaul/switches/waps) and a ton of customers with /32 assignments and you are renumbering from provider assigned space you gathered over many years into your own initial ARIN assignment, they want:
>
> 1. equipment type and info for each management device
> 2. customer info for each /32 assignment
>
> Tell me what ISP can legally and ethically give out their customer base information? Don't get me wrong. I'm sure small guys don't think twice about it, accumulating all the information and handing it over to ARIN thinking they have no choice (the responses from ARIN leaves one with that impression; you want the address space, you WILL give us this).
>

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with providing the information to ARIN under NDA. ARIN provides a very good (IMHO) plain English mutual NDA for just this purpose.

What rational ethical ISP fails to include a provision for this process in their TOS?

> I sometimes wonder what happens to that information; if it sits around in an archive somewhere in the vast digital repositories of ARIN awaiting someone to steal it.

That's a very cynical view. I happen to know that ARIN takes the security of that data very seriously and I think they do a good job of protecting it. If you have any reason to believe otherwise, I invite you to offer some form of substantiation to support such a claim.

Owen

owen at delong

Apr 25, 2012, 8:34 AM

Post #16 of 50 (938 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

There is not a new policy added on to prevent hoarding. What is required is what
has been required for several years. Utilization information and proper justification.

If you are seeking an ISP allocation, then, reassignment (customer) information is
in fact part of that utilization information.

Owen

On Apr 25, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Kenneth McRae wrote:

> Negative.. I have never had to provide end user information. I have been
> required to provide utilization information. I am sure this "policy" is
> and add-on to make it more difficult to prevent hoarding..
>
> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Jonathan Lassoff <jof [at] thejof> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM, <admin [at] thecpaneladmin> wrote:
>>> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
>> allocation
>>> they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing
>> allocations,
>>> which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are insisting
>>> that this is standard process and something that everyone does when
>>> requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
>>
>> Indeed. It's worked this way for a long time.
>>
>> When starting a new organization, there's a bit of a chicken and egg
>> problem with IP space. If anyone could get IP space just for asking
>> for it, it would have been consumed too quickly. So, organizations
>> must first get some space assigned to them from an upstream provider
>> and begin using it.
>> At some point the current usage and growth rate of the assigned space
>> will justify a direct allocation.
>>
>> Then, you can renumber into your new space and be totally independent.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> jof
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Kenneth McRae
> *Sr. Network Engineer*
> kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost
> Ph: 323-375-3814
> www.dreamhost.com

kenneth.mcrae at dreamhost

Apr 25, 2012, 8:46 AM

Post #17 of 50 (943 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

I have never provided the names of end users.. How the address space would
be utilized? Definitely.. But not the names of end users...

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Owen DeLong <owen [at] delong> wrote:

> There is not a new policy added on to prevent hoarding. What is required
> is what
> has been required for several years. Utilization information and proper
> justification.
>
> If you are seeking an ISP allocation, then, reassignment (customer)
> information is
> in fact part of that utilization information.
>
> Owen
>
> On Apr 25, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Kenneth McRae wrote:
>
> > Negative.. I have never had to provide end user information. I have
> been
> > required to provide utilization information. I am sure this "policy" is
> > and add-on to make it more difficult to prevent hoarding..
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Jonathan Lassoff <jof [at] thejof>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM, <admin [at] thecpaneladmin> wrote:
> >>> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
> >> allocation
> >>> they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing
> >> allocations,
> >>> which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are
> insisting
> >>> that this is standard process and something that everyone does when
> >>> requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
> >>
> >> Indeed. It's worked this way for a long time.
> >>
> >> When starting a new organization, there's a bit of a chicken and egg
> >> problem with IP space. If anyone could get IP space just for asking
> >> for it, it would have been consumed too quickly. So, organizations
> >> must first get some space assigned to them from an upstream provider
> >> and begin using it.
> >> At some point the current usage and growth rate of the assigned space
> >> will justify a direct allocation.
> >>
> >> Then, you can renumber into your new space and be totally independent.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> jof
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Kenneth McRae
> > *Sr. Network Engineer*
> > kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost
> > Ph: 323-375-3814
> > www.dreamhost.com
>
>

--
Best Regards,

Kenneth McRae
*Sr. Network Engineer*
kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost
Ph: 323-375-3814
www.dreamhost.com

cra at WPI

Apr 25, 2012, 8:49 AM

Post #18 of 50 (938 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 08:28:35AM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:
>
> On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:23 AM, Joe Maimon wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > admin [at] thecpaneladmin wrote:
> >> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
> >> allocation they are requesting that we provide customer names for
> >> existing allocations, which is information that will take a while to
> >> obtain. They are insisting that this is standard process and something
> >> that everyone does when requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ARIN does not require you or your customers to use NAT.
> >
> > If you have customers, you are an ISP and need an allocation.
> >
> > SWIP everything you do.
> >
> RWHOIS is a perfectly valid alternative to SWIP.

Can a downstream ISP SWIP records if their upstream ISP uses RWHOIS
for the block that is further delegated to that downstream ISP?

streiner at cluebyfour

Apr 25, 2012, 8:52 AM

Post #19 of 50 (940 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Kenneth McRae wrote:

> I have never provided the names of end users.. How the address space would
> be utilized? Definitely.. But not the names of end users...

When I worked at an ISP, we provided the names of companies to whom we
assigned address space, but not individual residential subs.

Running an rwhois server that was tied into our customer provisioning
system made the process of requesting more space from ARIN pretty
painless, all things considered, and saved the overhead of having to SWIP
every assignment.

jms

bhmccie at gmail

Apr 25, 2012, 8:54 AM

Post #20 of 50 (939 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

I can say that I recently completed the purchase of a large IPv6 block.
We've had several large V4 blocks for years and got them with very
little effort. For this block, we had to provide a detailed list of all
our physical locations as well as how the IP schema would be utilized. I
also had to provide site drawings (scrubbed visios) showing my topology
layout to justify my additional ASNs. It was not a harsh ordeal. ARIN
was very professional about it. But it was a lot more paperwork than
what I've needed in the past. None of it seemed unreasonable. We just
had to work out NDAs and whatnot so I could share more detailed
information with them.

-Hammer-

"I was a normal American nerd"
-Jack Herer

On 4/25/2012 10:34 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
> There is not a new policy added on to prevent hoarding. What is required is what
> has been required for several years. Utilization information and proper justification.
>
> If you are seeking an ISP allocation, then, reassignment (customer) information is
> in fact part of that utilization information.
>
> Owen
>
> On Apr 25, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Kenneth McRae wrote:
>
>> Negative.. I have never had to provide end user information. I have been
>> required to provide utilization information. I am sure this "policy" is
>> and add-on to make it more difficult to prevent hoarding..
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Jonathan Lassoff<jof [at] thejof> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM,<admin [at] thecpaneladmin> wrote:
>>>> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
>>> allocation
>>>> they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing
>>> allocations,
>>>> which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are insisting
>>>> that this is standard process and something that everyone does when
>>>> requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
>>> Indeed. It's worked this way for a long time.
>>>
>>> When starting a new organization, there's a bit of a chicken and egg
>>> problem with IP space. If anyone could get IP space just for asking
>>> for it, it would have been consumed too quickly. So, organizations
>>> must first get some space assigned to them from an upstream provider
>>> and begin using it.
>>> At some point the current usage and growth rate of the assigned space
>>> will justify a direct allocation.
>>>
>>> Then, you can renumber into your new space and be totally independent.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> jof
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Kenneth McRae
>> *Sr. Network Engineer*
>> kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost
>> Ph: 323-375-3814
>> www.dreamhost.com
>
>

streiner at cluebyfour

Apr 25, 2012, 8:55 AM

Post #21 of 50 (938 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Chuck Anderson wrote:

>> RWHOIS is a perfectly valid alternative to SWIP.
>
> Can a downstream ISP SWIP records if their upstream ISP uses RWHOIS
> for the block that is further delegated to that downstream ISP?

I would think so, but it might also depend on how the space is delegated
to you. The upstream should be able to put a note in the rwhois record
stating that further assignments from a.b.c.0/xx have been SWIP'd or
something to that effect.

jms

jof at thejof

Apr 25, 2012, 9:09 AM

Post #22 of 50 (936 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Kenneth McRae
<kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost>wrote:

> I have never provided the names of end users.. How the address space
> would be utilized? Definitely.. But not the names of end users...
>

Probably because you are an "end user".
If you're talking about AS26347, I don't think there is any re-assigned
space in there.

Do you ever "assign" users CIDR blocks of IP space for their own use? If
it's just the transitory use of IPs in an operational network you control,
then that sounds like "end user" use to me, even though you may sell the
use of those IPs.

If you have questions about this stuff, the ARIN NRPM is a great resource:
https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html

Cheers,
jof

Valdis.Kletnieks at vt

Apr 25, 2012, 9:13 AM

Post #23 of 50 (937 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 10:54:39 -0500, -Hammer- said:
> I can say that I recently completed the purchase of a large IPv6 block.

"purchase"??!?

owen at delong

Apr 25, 2012, 9:55 AM

Post #24 of 50 (936 views)
Permalink

Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

No, you didn't. You may have completed the acquisition of a large IPv6 block, but you did not purchase it.

Number resources are not property and cannot be bought and/or sold.

What you pay to ARIN pays for registration services (the registration of the numbers, not the numbers themselves). While I realize that in practice this may seem like a distinction without a difference, there are major legal and practical implications to this fact that are quite important to the very underpinnings of how the internet works.

Owen

On Apr 25, 2012, at 8:54 AM, -Hammer- wrote:

> I can say that I recently completed the purchase of a large IPv6 block. We've had several large V4 blocks for years and got them with very little effort. For this block, we had to provide a detailed list of all our physical locations as well as how the IP schema would be utilized. I also had to provide site drawings (scrubbed visios) showing my topology layout to justify my additional ASNs. It was not a harsh ordeal. ARIN was very professional about it. But it was a lot more paperwork than what I've needed in the past. None of it seemed unreasonable. We just had to work out NDAs and whatnot so I could share more detailed information with them.
>
> -Hammer-
>
> "I was a normal American nerd"
> -Jack Herer
>
>
>
> On 4/25/2012 10:34 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> There is not a new policy added on to prevent hoarding. What is required is what
>> has been required for several years. Utilization information and proper justification.
>>
>> If you are seeking an ISP allocation, then, reassignment (customer) information is
>> in fact part of that utilization information.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Kenneth McRae wrote:
>>
>>> Negative.. I have never had to provide end user information. I have been
>>> required to provide utilization information. I am sure this "policy" is
>>> and add-on to make it more difficult to prevent hoarding..
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Jonathan Lassoff<jof [at] thejof> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM,<admin [at] thecpaneladmin> wrote:
>>>>> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
>>>> allocation
>>>>> they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing
>>>> allocations,
>>>>> which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are insisting
>>>>> that this is standard process and something that everyone does when
>>>>> requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
>>>> Indeed. It's worked this way for a long time.
>>>>
>>>> When starting a new organization, there's a bit of a chicken and egg
>>>> problem with IP space. If anyone could get IP space just for asking
>>>> for it, it would have been consumed too quickly. So, organizations
>>>> must first get some space assigned to them from an upstream provider
>>>> and begin using it.
>>>> At some point the current usage and growth rate of the assigned space
>>>> will justify a direct allocation.
>>>>
>>>> Then, you can renumber into your new space and be totally independent.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> jof
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kenneth McRae
>>> *Sr. Network Engineer*
>>> kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost
>>> Ph: 323-375-3814
>>> www.dreamhost.com
>>
>>

mylists at battleop

Apr 25, 2012, 10:21 AM

Post #25 of 50 (930 views)
Permalink

RE: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN [In reply to]

I got a new allocation about 18 months ago. I sent them a spread sheet of
the users and their current IPs. I changed the real customer name to
something that reflected what business they were in. So I had lots of
"Hotel Customer 1" and "Dr. Office 112" with what IPs they were using.
There was no way we were going to release a complete customer list to
anyone. They didn't seem to have a problem with this.

Richey

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth McRae [mailto:kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost]
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:46 AM
To: Owen DeLong
Cc: nanog [at] nanog
Subject: Re: Squeezing IPs out of ARIN

I have never provided the names of end users.. How the address space would
be utilized? Definitely.. But not the names of end users...

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Owen DeLong <owen [at] delong> wrote:

> There is not a new policy added on to prevent hoarding. What is
> required is what has been required for several years. Utilization
> information and proper justification.
>
> If you are seeking an ISP allocation, then, reassignment (customer)
> information is in fact part of that utilization information.
>
> Owen
>
> On Apr 25, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Kenneth McRae wrote:
>
> > Negative.. I have never had to provide end user information. I
> > have
> been
> > required to provide utilization information. I am sure this
> > "policy" is and add-on to make it more difficult to prevent hoarding..
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Jonathan Lassoff <jof [at] thejof>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM, <admin [at] thecpaneladmin> wrote:
> >>> Anyone have any tips for getting IPs from ARIN? For an end-user
> >> allocation
> >>> they are requesting that we provide customer names for existing
> >> allocations,
> >>> which is information that will take a while to obtain. They are
> insisting
> >>> that this is standard process and something that everyone does
> >>> when requesting IPs. Has anyone actually had to do this?
> >>
> >> Indeed. It's worked this way for a long time.
> >>
> >> When starting a new organization, there's a bit of a chicken and
> >> egg problem with IP space. If anyone could get IP space just for
> >> asking for it, it would have been consumed too quickly. So,
> >> organizations must first get some space assigned to them from an
> >> upstream provider and begin using it.
> >> At some point the current usage and growth rate of the assigned
> >> space will justify a direct allocation.
> >>
> >> Then, you can renumber into your new space and be totally independent.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> jof
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Kenneth McRae
> > *Sr. Network Engineer*
> > kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost
> > Ph: 323-375-3814
> > www.dreamhost.com
>
>

--
Best Regards,

Kenneth McRae
*Sr. Network Engineer*
kenneth.mcrae [at] dreamhost
Ph: 323-375-3814
www.dreamhost.com

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