Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Users

Mini ITX motherboards

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dardack at nycap

Aug 9, 2004, 12:24 PM

Post #1 of 7 (946 views)
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Mini ITX motherboards

Ok, i seem to be the first to undertake this project, but oh well.

I have a tivo which apparently i stupidly subbed for a year ago, i had a
series 1 version 1.3, no sub to record, but my wife wanted to have the
guide data, so i gave in. But we recently got rid of our land line for
just our cell phones. I was spending 35 dollars a month just so tivo
could dial out. So i knew that i could record manually before, but now
i can't. Basically tivo said too bad. And i've been unable to find a
SVR 2000 1.3 image out there. Anyways,
i'm looking to remove the hardware from the box, my wife likes the look
and size, and putting in mythtv hardware. I figure a mini-itx will fit,
i measured it, will be tight going left to right, the fan there might
just be in the way, perhaps not. So i've come across some mini itx's
that have TV-out, lan, sound, would just add a hauppage pvr 250 using a
pci riser and would prolly have to cut some of my own holes, but it's in
the back should be a big deal, plus they already cut holes, would just
have to modify theirs.
Anyways, i was wondering if anyone has one of these mini-itx boards with
integrated everything and if it works with mythtv well. The one problem
i see is the power supply. Anyone know what wattage i would need to run
one of these mini's and the pvr 250, and a small size, it has to fit
between the back of the tivo and the harddrives. Would have to cut a
bigger hole for the cable and make a few holes for the fan. I mean if i
don't have to buy a case, harddrives and such, i just want to use the
case. I dont need a cdrom except to install. etc. Any help would be
appreciated.
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tait at digitallaw

Aug 9, 2004, 1:31 PM

Post #2 of 7 (967 views)
Permalink

Re: Mini ITX motherboards [In reply to]

>
>Anyways, i was wondering if anyone has one of these mini-itx boards with
>integrated everything and if it works with mythtv well.

Afraid not, but there are plenty of threads on this list archive about
general stuff about the EPIA boards and their ilk. General consensus I
think is that they're great for watching TV and video on, but less than
satisfying for ripping and transcoding MP3's, DVD's, etc - essentially, all
the stuff that requires a lot of CPU time.

>The one problem i see is the power supply.

You can get external PSU's for most iterations of mini ITX hardware, which
will make cooling and modding the case *much* easier.

>Anyone know what wattage i would need to run one of these mini's and the
>pvr 250, and a small size, it has to fit between the back of the tivo and
>the harddrives. Would have to cut a bigger hole for the cable and make a
>few holes for the fan. I mean if i don't have to buy a case, harddrives
>and such, i just want to use the case. I dont need a cdrom except to
>install. etc. Any help would be appreciated.

If this is just going to be used for watching and recording TV, I'd
recommend the 350 rather than the 250. It's TV-Out is of exceptionally good
quality, and judging by the posts to this list, is generally far better and
just as easy to get working compared to the TV-Out's on most GFX/mobos -
plus you have the added advantage that you don't even need to think about
using closed source drivers. If you're looking to play games or use
MythMusic visualisations or suchlike, you may find the limited scope of the
350's TV-Out problematic.

If hard drives are a problem and you have another computer (preferably
running Linux), there's a fair few people here who netboot their machines
off their central file/myth servers (which also contain the TV cards),
which they also use for storage, giving them discless frontends which are
*very* quiet. I'm going to attempt this approach myself once my current
workstation gets retired.

As a personal opinion piece, I would rather spend the extra moolah on a
prettier-than-a-TiVO case (I only have the short lived UK TiVO my mate has
as a comparison, mind you) and chuck a low powered mATX solution into it,
which would give me far more flexibility in terms of watching DVD's and
XviD's and all the other functions ancillary to MythTV, although as pointed
out the newer EPIA boards are much more powerful than they used to be and
easily capable of pretty much anything you can throw at them. But then,
IANAWBCM (Would-Be Case Modder :^) and I'm not a huge fan of proprietary
hardware stuff like the mini ITX form factor.

P.S. hope you're prepared for a good slashdotting once your project is finished!

dardack at nycap

Aug 9, 2004, 3:12 PM

Post #3 of 7 (936 views)
Permalink

Re: Mini ITX motherboards [In reply to]

Stephen Tait wrote:

>
>>
>> Anyways, i was wondering if anyone has one of these mini-itx boards
>> with integrated everything and if it works with mythtv well.
>
>
> Afraid not, but there are plenty of threads on this list archive about
> general stuff about the EPIA boards and their ilk. General consensus I
> think is that they're great for watching TV and video on, but less
> than satisfying for ripping and transcoding MP3's, DVD's, etc -
> essentially, all the stuff that requires a lot of CPU time.
>
It is for my wife so as long as it can watch live tv/record watch
recording, without skipping and such she'll be fine. She has a DVD
player already and i don't think she cares about transcoding. She does
like mythweather, especially if we're going somewhere. What we have our
2 tv's in our living room. She gets the big one or if we have guests or
if we watch the same thing. I have a 20in with headphones to watch my
recordings on my mythtv box. or sports or whatever she doesn't like.
So as long as it acts like tivo she doesn't care.

>> The one problem i see is the power supply.
>
>
> You can get external PSU's for most iterations of mini ITX hardware,
> which will make cooling and modding the case *much* easier.
>
External? How much they run? Aparently i've never seen one. I usually
build all my friends computers but have never modded something so guess
i really haven't done enough research.

>> Anyone know what wattage i would need to run one of these mini's and
>> the pvr 250, and a small size, it has to fit between the back of the
>> tivo and the harddrives. Would have to cut a bigger hole for the
>> cable and make a few holes for the fan. I mean if i don't have to
>> buy a case, harddrives and such, i just want to use the case. I dont
>> need a cdrom except to install. etc. Any help would be appreciated.
>
>
> If this is just going to be used for watching and recording TV, I'd
> recommend the 350 rather than the 250. It's TV-Out is of exceptionally
> good quality, and judging by the posts to this list, is generally far
> better and just as easy to get working compared to the TV-Out's on
> most GFX/mobos - plus you have the added advantage that you don't even
> need to think about using closed source drivers. If you're looking to
> play games or use MythMusic visualisations or suchlike, you may find
> the limited scope of the 350's TV-Out problematic.
>
> If hard drives are a problem and you have another computer (preferably
> running Linux), there's a fair few people here who netboot their
> machines off their central file/myth servers (which also contain the
> TV cards), which they also use for storage, giving them discless
> frontends which are *very* quiet. I'm going to attempt this approach
> myself once my current workstation gets retired.
>
Hard drives not a problem. If i'm gonna destroy the tivo box anyways
i'll use the 40 and 60 already in there with LVM. OK so does the 350's
tvout work well yet? I know there were issues with getting it to work,
and it being difficult to get to work. Although i mean would 70w be big
enough to run all this? or do i need to go a bit bigger. I don't think
a 55w would be good enough.

> As a personal opinion piece, I would rather spend the extra moolah on
> a prettier-than-a-TiVO case (I only have the short lived UK TiVO my
> mate has as a comparison, mind you) and chuck a low powered mATX
> solution into it, which would give me far more flexibility in terms of
> watching DVD's and XviD's and all the other functions ancillary to
> MythTV, although as pointed out the newer EPIA boards are much more
> powerful than they used to be and easily capable of pretty much
> anything you can throw at them. But then, IANAWBCM (Would-Be Case
> Modder :^) and I'm not a huge fan of proprietary hardware stuff like
> the mini ITX form factor.
>
didn't know the itx form was proprietary, but it is only 17cm, i mean
according to my measurements would fit real nice, i would acctually
install it away from the back so i wouldn't have to mod the back much
but just run the cables needed through the holes already there, i do
need a pci riser and would have to support the Tuner card, could prolly
drill a couples holes in the bottom and run a metal post up and screw
the tunner card into that. I still haven't decided to do this yet, just
think it would work. I do like the remote reciver being able to run it
to inside middle of TIVO where the current receiver is. BTW OT, is
there a program to have like the Power LED and HDD LEd light up when
recording and other things. This way i could get an extra LED and place
them where the TIVO's current LEd's are. MMMM more i think about it
more i think i'll do it. Just need a couple more dollars. Soon.

> P.S. hope you're prepared for a good slashdotting once your project is
> finished!
>
That would be nice. Never done anything to get much recognition to have
a server overload like that. Although some of the modded cases slashdot
has put up are nice. Well thank you for the advice and info. Sounds
like the intergrated mini itx board is perfect for what i want to do.
If i understand correctly.

>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>mythtv-users mailing list
>mythtv-users [at] mythtv
>http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>
We
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tait at digitallaw

Aug 9, 2004, 4:36 PM

Post #4 of 7 (949 views)
Permalink

Re: Mini ITX motherboards [In reply to]

At 18:12 09/08/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Stephen Tait wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>>Anyways, i was wondering if anyone has one of these mini-itx boards with
>>>integrated everything and if it works with mythtv well.
>>
>>
>>Afraid not, but there are plenty of threads on this list archive about
>>general stuff about the EPIA boards and their ilk. General consensus I
>>think is that they're great for watching TV and video on, but less than
>>satisfying for ripping and transcoding MP3's, DVD's, etc - essentially,
>>all the stuff that requires a lot of CPU time.
>It is for my wife so as long as it can watch live tv/record watch
>recording, without skipping and such she'll be fine. She has a DVD player
>already and i don't think she cares about transcoding. She does like
>mythweather, especially if we're going somewhere. What we have our 2 tv's
>in our living room. She gets the big one or if we have guests or if we
>watch the same thing. I have a 20in with headphones to watch my
>recordings on my mythtv box. or sports or whatever she doesn't like.
>So as long as it acts like tivo she doesn't care.

You're probably running a wife based on the 2.2 kernel. I can heartily
recommend upgrading to 2.6, as they're much more responsive to incessant
geekiness (but they can be a bit unstable) ;^)

Part of the beauty of Myth for me is that it replaced about 8 zillion
different boxes (VCR, DVD player, stereo bits), and managed to be much
cooler than any of them - but that's computers for you I guess...!

One more thing about the WAF; what are you going to do whilst the TiVO is
down and the Myth box isn't yet up?! I keep a backup backend just in case
anything disastrously wrong goes on with my main backend - my flatmates and
my girly can't live without Myth now, and I didn't want to be forced to
take out shares in Interflora. Mods like this can take a little time, and
if you've never set up Myth before, you may well be in for a bit of a
rollercoaster.

>>>The one problem i see is the power supply.
>>
>>
>>You can get external PSU's for most iterations of mini ITX hardware,
>>which will make cooling and modding the case *much* easier.
>External? How much they run? Aparently i've never seen one. I usually
>build all my friends computers but have never modded something so guess i
>really haven't done enough research.

Here's an example from a UK site I get most of my HTPC gear from

http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_1731.html

but that's only 55W; there's a more expensive version rated at twice the
power over at a similar site (second one down)

http://ultim8pc.co.uk/index.asp?section=products&idd=17

As you can see, they both have most of the PSU in an external "brick" and
use a little bridgeboard to go inside the case.

>>>Anyone know what wattage i would need to run one of these mini's and the
>>>pvr 250, and a small size, it has to fit between the back of the tivo
>>>and the harddrives. Would have to cut a bigger hole for the cable and
>>>make a few holes for the fan. I mean if i don't have to buy a case,
>>>harddrives and such, i just want to use the case. I dont need a cdrom
>>>except to install. etc. Any help would be appreciated.
>>
>Hard drives not a problem. If i'm gonna destroy the tivo box anyways i'll
>use the 40 and 60 already in there with LVM. OK so does the 350's tvout
>work well yet? I know there were issues with getting it to work, and it
>being difficult to get to work. Although i mean would 70w be big enough
>to run all this? or do i need to go a bit bigger. I don't think a 55w
>would be good enough.

A 55W prolly won't be good enough. You can get an estimate of how much
power peoples EPIA system soak up by searching the archives; a problem will
be using two hard drives, which I imagine will suck up about 2x the power
(and noise) of a single 120GB drive.

As someone else noted, it's possible to connect your TiVO up to a network
and grab the updates that way.

As another personal opinion piece, I'd keep the TiVO and build myself an
equally gorgeous-looking mATX box with a cheap athlon or something in it,
and fiddle with lirc until you can get the TiVO remote working on it in the
exact same way as on the TiVO, and then gradually phase out the TiVO (or
shift it to the other TV) as your skillz with Myth become ever more mad and
733t. But then you won't get on /. that way ;^)

My �0.02...!

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users [at] mythtv
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

dardack at nycap

Aug 9, 2004, 5:24 PM

Post #5 of 7 (950 views)
Permalink

Re: Mini ITX motherboards [In reply to]

Stephen Tait wrote:

> At 18:12 09/08/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> Stephen Tait wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anyways, i was wondering if anyone has one of these mini-itx boards
>>>> with integrated everything and if it works with mythtv well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Afraid not, but there are plenty of threads on this list archive
>>> about general stuff about the EPIA boards and their ilk. General
>>> consensus I think is that they're great for watching TV and video
>>> on, but less than satisfying for ripping and transcoding MP3's,
>>> DVD's, etc - essentially, all the stuff that requires a lot of CPU
>>> time.
>>
>> It is for my wife so as long as it can watch live tv/record watch
>> recording, without skipping and such she'll be fine. She has a DVD
>> player already and i don't think she cares about transcoding. She
>> does like mythweather, especially if we're going somewhere. What we
>> have our 2 tv's in our living room. She gets the big one or if we
>> have guests or if we watch the same thing. I have a 20in with
>> headphones to watch my recordings on my mythtv box. or sports or
>> whatever she doesn't like.
>> So as long as it acts like tivo she doesn't care.
>
>
> You're probably running a wife based on the 2.2 kernel. I can heartily
> recommend upgrading to 2.6, as they're much more responsive to
> incessant geekiness (but they can be a bit unstable) ;^)
>
amen to that.

> Part of the beauty of Myth for me is that it replaced about 8 zillion
> different boxes (VCR, DVD player, stereo bits), and managed to be much
> cooler than any of them - but that's computers for you I guess...!

>
> One more thing about the WAF; what are you going to do whilst the TiVO
> is down and the Myth box isn't yet up?! I keep a backup backend just
> in case anything disastrously wrong goes on with my main backend - my
> flatmates and my girly can't live without Myth now, and I didn't want
> to be forced to take out shares in Interflora. Mods like this can take
> a little time, and if you've never set up Myth before, you may well be
> in for a bit of a rollercoaster.

Um no i have my own mythtv box, the tivo is/was her box. So no i'll
still have my box, she just won't have hers. I mean she doesn't have it
right now because we don't have a phone. and like i replied to the
other guy i don't feel like buying the addon and paying 13 a month, and
who knows if they'll increase it or not. Plus i plan on putting
knoppmyth on it, i ran that for a friend, just because i didn't have the
time to mess with his box, and it works for him perfectly, he hasn't had
any problems.

>
>
>>>> The one problem i see is the power supply.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You can get external PSU's for most iterations of mini ITX hardware,
>>> which will make cooling and modding the case *much* easier.
>>
>> External? How much they run? Aparently i've never seen one. I
>> usually build all my friends computers but have never modded
>> something so guess i really haven't done enough research.
>
>
> Here's an example from a UK site I get most of my HTPC gear from
>
> http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_1731.html
>
> but that's only 55W; there's a more expensive version rated at twice
> the power over at a similar site (second one down)
>
> http://ultim8pc.co.uk/index.asp?section=products&idd=17
>
> As you can see, they both have most of the PSU in an external "brick"
> and use a little bridgeboard to go inside the case.
>
Yea, well i'll decide. there might be just enough room to take the
cover of an internel supply to make it fit. I mean the tivo power
supply doesn't have a cover, gotta be careful in there.

>
>>>> Anyone know what wattage i would need to run one of these mini's
>>>> and the pvr 250, and a small size, it has to fit between the back
>>>> of the tivo and the harddrives. Would have to cut a bigger hole
>>>> for the cable and make a few holes for the fan. I mean if i don't
>>>> have to buy a case, harddrives and such, i just want to use the
>>>> case. I dont need a cdrom except to install. etc. Any help would
>>>> be appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>> Hard drives not a problem. If i'm gonna destroy the tivo box anyways
>> i'll use the 40 and 60 already in there with LVM. OK so does the
>> 350's tvout work well yet? I know there were issues with getting it
>> to work, and it being difficult to get to work. Although i mean
>> would 70w be big enough to run all this? or do i need to go a bit
>> bigger. I don't think a 55w would be good enough.
>
>
> A 55W prolly won't be good enough. You can get an estimate of how much
> power peoples EPIA system soak up by searching the archives; a problem
> will be using two hard drives, which I imagine will suck up about 2x
> the power (and noise) of a single 120GB drive.
>
Yea i know but i already have the two drives. And my 120 is in my box.
She doesn't record as much as i do. But i want to make sure she has
enough space for hardware encoded mpeg files the pvr250/350 make.

> As someone else noted, it's possible to connect your TiVO up to a
> network and grab the updates that way.
>
> As another personal opinion piece, I'd keep the TiVO and build myself
> an equally gorgeous-looking mATX box with a cheap athlon or something
> in it, and fiddle with lirc until you can get the TiVO remote working
> on it in the exact same way as on the TiVO, and then gradually phase
> out the TiVO (or shift it to the other TV) as your skillz with Myth
> become ever more mad and 733t. But then you won't get on /. that way ;^)
>
Yea but god forbid it doesn't go with the decor or what not? hehe, i
don't know she cares, i'm just looking for another project so i figured
what the hell. Will be interesting.

BTW, one other thing, If i use the happuage IR reciever for my machine
(which i do) i prolly can't use it for her machine as it will screw up
signals between the two since our tv's are only 4 ft apart or
something. So, if that is the case, is it easy to create a receiver for
the sony tivo remote? Just wondering. Anyways thanks. I appreciate
everyone's input.

> My �0.02...!
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

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mythtv at scottnic

Aug 9, 2004, 9:29 PM

Post #6 of 7 (942 views)
Permalink

Re: Mini ITX motherboards [In reply to]

> As another personal opinion piece, I'd keep the TiVO and build myself an
> equally gorgeous-looking mATX box with a cheap athlon or something in
> it, and fiddle with lirc until you can get the TiVO remote working on it
> in the exact same way as on the TiVO, and then gradually phase out the
> TiVO (or shift it to the other TV) as your skillz with Myth become ever
> more mad and 733t. But then you won't get on /. that way ;^)

Just wanted to pipe in with my opinion on this -- My understanding is
that you've got a TiVo with a lifetime sub but don't want to keep a
landline just to get the program data?

The (non-myth) option would be to install a network card in the TiVo and
do it via your net connection, but I don't know what version of the box
you have or how easy it is to do this, and besides you wouldn't be
running a Myth system this way and this is a Myth mailing list so...

My suggestion would be to sell the TiVo and use the money to build a
sweet little Myth box. TiVo Lifetime Subscriptions are transferrable (or
at least they were when I sold mine) and increase the value of the TiVo
considerably. I'd bet you could get at least a couple hundred (possibly
much more, depending on the model) for the TiVo and you could get a
really nice case for that (and have a fair bit left over to go towards
the mobo, hd, etc.)

Just MHO.

Scott

dardack at nycap

Aug 10, 2004, 4:44 AM

Post #7 of 7 (941 views)
Permalink

Re: Mini ITX motherboards [In reply to]

Scott Nicholson wrote:

>> As another personal opinion piece, I'd keep the TiVO and build myself
>> an equally gorgeous-looking mATX box with a cheap athlon or something
>> in it, and fiddle with lirc until you can get the TiVO remote working
>> on it in the exact same way as on the TiVO, and then gradually phase
>> out the TiVO (or shift it to the other TV) as your skillz with Myth
>> become ever more mad and 733t. But then you won't get on /. that way ;^)
>
>
> Just wanted to pipe in with my opinion on this -- My understanding is
> that you've got a TiVo with a lifetime sub but don't want to keep a
> landline just to get the program data?
>
> The (non-myth) option would be to install a network card in the TiVo
> and do it via your net connection, but I don't know what version of
> the box you have or how easy it is to do this, and besides you
> wouldn't be running a Myth system this way and this is a Myth mailing
> list so...
>
> My suggestion would be to sell the TiVo and use the money to build a
> sweet little Myth box. TiVo Lifetime Subscriptions are transferrable
> (or at least they were when I sold mine) and increase the value of the
> TiVo considerably. I'd bet you could get at least a couple hundred
> (possibly much more, depending on the model) for the TiVo and you
> could get a really nice case for that (and have a fair bit left over
> to go towards the mobo, hd, etc.)
>
> Just MHO.
>
> Scott
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>mythtv-users mailing list
>mythtv-users [at] mythtv
>http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>
No i don't have lifetime sub. SO i might be able to get 70-80 on ebay,
what series one non lifetime are getting.
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