Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Users

HDTV?

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thor at netwood

Jun 21, 2004, 5:08 PM

Post #1 of 17 (1981 views)
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HDTV?

Anyone had success using MythTV with HDTV?
I'm aware that some work has been done regarding that linux only HDTV Tuner
card available, so I'm more interested in HDTV output at the moment...
If it can be done, could advantage be taken of the extra resolution, by
cramming more info on the screen in menus and schedule grids?

Or, maybe I'm just getting to far ahead here...

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jdonavan at jdonavan

Jun 22, 2004, 2:05 AM

Post #2 of 17 (1958 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

Thor Melsted wrote:

>Anyone had success using MythTV with HDTV?
>I'm aware that some work has been done regarding that linux only HDTV Tuner
>card available, so I'm more interested in HDTV output at the moment...
>If it can be done, could advantage be taken of the extra resolution, by
>cramming more info on the screen in menus and schedule grids?
>
>
>
#1 Don't start a new thread by replying to an old one.

yes Myth takes advantage of the increased resolution of an HDTV set.

andrew at parlette

Jun 22, 2004, 12:40 PM

Post #3 of 17 (1928 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

J. Donavan Stanley wrote:
> Thor Melsted wrote:
>
>> Anyone had success using MythTV with HDTV?
>> I'm aware that some work has been done regarding that linux only HDTV
>> Tuner
>> card available, so I'm more interested in HDTV output at the moment...
>> If it can be done, could advantage be taken of the extra resolution, by
>> cramming more info on the screen in menus and schedule grids?
>>
>>
>>
> #1 Don't start a new thread by replying to an old one.
>
> yes Myth takes advantage of the increased resolution of an HDTV set.
>
>

Just to clarify, Myth does "work" on an HDTV set in that it looks great
and scales everything up to the proper resolution. However, outside of
increased picture quality, Myth doesn't do anything extra within HD
resolutions. For instance, there is no side-by-side PIP (or POP), tv
browsing outside of the 4:3 window, etc. I would like to see (or work on
myself) some of these features in the future. But the short answer to
the question is the quality is scaled very nicely.

thor at netwood

Jun 22, 2004, 12:54 PM

Post #4 of 17 (1939 views)
Permalink

RE: HDTV? [In reply to]

Andrew Parlette wrote:

>Just to clarify, Myth does "work" on an HDTV set in that it looks great and
scales
>everything up to the proper resolution. However, outside of increased
picture quality, Myth
>doesn't do anything extra within HD resolutions. For instance, there is no
side-by-side PIP
>(or POP), tv browsing outside of the 4:3 window, etc. I would like to see
(or work on
>myself) some of these features in the future. But the short answer to the
question is the
>quality is scaled very nicely.

That was the answer I was expecting. It would be great if an HDTV theme
could be made, and if mods could be made to take advantage of the extra
resolution afforded by HDTV, so that more information could be displayed at
once...
Also, what kind of HDTV outputs are supported? What kind of hardware would
I need if a DVI connector is not present on the TV? Mine only has component
inputs.
An ATI Card with the DVItoHDTV adapter perhaps?

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papenfuss at juneau

Jun 22, 2004, 4:24 PM

Post #5 of 17 (1938 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

> Just to clarify, Myth does "work" on an HDTV set in that it looks great and
> scales everything up to the proper resolution.

I'm kinda an HDTV noob, but know a fair bit about video signals. I
learned something interesting from the local TV/stereo shop when I was browsing
in there letting them try to blow smoke up my *ss. I wasn't aware that HDTV's
usually do a "nonlinear" zoom when displaying SDTV so that there aren't black
bars on the side or horribly squished 4:3 playback. Does XV allow for such a
stretching? I know Mythtv has 4:3, 4:3 zoom, 16:9, and 16:9 zoom, but they're
all linear.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Since I don't even have an HDTV
it doesn't matter much to me... just making people who might care aware... :)

-Cory

john at sturgeonfamily

Jun 22, 2004, 5:56 PM

Post #6 of 17 (1924 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

Cory Papenfuss wrote:

>> Just to clarify, Myth does "work" on an HDTV set in that it looks
>> great and scales everything up to the proper resolution.
>
>
> I'm kinda an HDTV noob, but know a fair bit about video signals.
> I learned something interesting from the local TV/stereo shop when I
> was browsing in there letting them try to blow smoke up my *ss. I
> wasn't aware that HDTV's usually do a "nonlinear" zoom when displaying
> SDTV so that there aren't black bars on the side or horribly squished
> 4:3 playback. Does XV allow for such a stretching? I know Mythtv has
> 4:3, 4:3 zoom, 16:9, and 16:9 zoom, but they're all linear.
>
> Just thought I'd throw that out there. Since I don't even have an
> HDTV it doesn't matter much to me... just making people who might care
> aware... :)
>
> -Cory
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>mythtv-users mailing list
>mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
>http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>
Hey Cory,

Many sets provide a nonlinear stretch mode for 4:3. Just so people
don't get confused, we're not talking about stretching a 4:3 to 16:9
(which is, of course, supported by XV) it's a warped stretch where the
middle 60-70% of the screen is zoomed by a fraction, and the remaining
15-20% on each side is stretched the rest of the way. It's a great
compromise when viewing 4:3 on a 16:9 monitor.

Depending on your modeline, you can trick your HDTV set into doing it
for you. If you can change your output resolution to 4:3 480p then your
TV should recognize this and let you stretch it. Right now, my output
resolution is 16:9 540p so my TV (Toshiba 51S500) only gives me 16:9 and
16:9 zoom. I'm willing to live with it. I don't know of a way to
toggle output resolutions on the fly. If I could, then switching to a
4:3 resolution on demand would be great.

--
John Sturgeon <><
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

papenfuss at juneau

Jun 23, 2004, 4:15 AM

Post #7 of 17 (1917 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

> zoom. I'm willing to live with it. I don't know of a way to toggle output
> resolutions on the fly. If I could, then switching to a 4:3 resolution on
> demand would be great.

I think the later X's have an RANDR extension that can change
resolutions on the fly. I haven't played with it at all, but I think that's
the right tool for the job. I've thought about doing that too, so I could
construct native modelines for any resolution that I use (480x480, 640x480,
720x480) so XV wouldn't have to scale anything.

-Cory

john at BlueSkyTours

Jun 23, 2004, 9:12 AM

Post #8 of 17 (1906 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, John Sturgeon wrote:

> Depending on your modeline, you can trick your HDTV set into doing it
> for you. If you can change your output resolution to 4:3 480p then your
> TV should recognize this and let you stretch it. Right now, my output
> resolution is 16:9 540p so my TV (Toshiba 51S500) only gives me 16:9 and
> 16:9 zoom. I'm willing to live with it. I don't know of a way to
> toggle output resolutions on the fly. If I could, then switching to a
> 4:3 resolution on demand would be great.

I have been working on this feature for the past couple of days. Pretty
much works, but I need to do some more testing.

I can now specify a display resolution based on the input video
resolution.

I have taken Doug Larrick work which allows separate GUI and video
resolutions, and expanded it.

The reason this is useful to me, is I have a 4:3 HDTV. My TV automatically
goes into a vertical squeeze mode (resulting in a 16:9 aspect) when
presented with vertical resolutions above 480P. I generally use Myth to
watch HDTV, but would like it to be "full screen" when I watch SDTV
material.

I should have a patch ready to submit by this weekend.

John

papenfuss at juneau

Jun 23, 2004, 9:29 AM

Post #9 of 17 (1921 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

So this patch would be changing the X resolution to match the video
being played, or does it change the mythtv scaling routine?

-Cory

*************************************************************************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
*************************************************************************

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, John Patrick Poet wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, John Sturgeon wrote:
>
>> Depending on your modeline, you can trick your HDTV set into doing it
>> for you. If you can change your output resolution to 4:3 480p then your
>> TV should recognize this and let you stretch it. Right now, my output
>> resolution is 16:9 540p so my TV (Toshiba 51S500) only gives me 16:9 and
>> 16:9 zoom. I'm willing to live with it. I don't know of a way to
>> toggle output resolutions on the fly. If I could, then switching to a
>> 4:3 resolution on demand would be great.
>
>
> I have been working on this feature for the past couple of days. Pretty
> much works, but I need to do some more testing.
>
> I can now specify a display resolution based on the input video
> resolution.
>
> I have taken Doug Larrick work which allows separate GUI and video
> resolutions, and expanded it.
>
> The reason this is useful to me, is I have a 4:3 HDTV. My TV automatically
> goes into a vertical squeeze mode (resulting in a 16:9 aspect) when
> presented with vertical resolutions above 480P. I generally use Myth to
> watch HDTV, but would like it to be "full screen" when I watch SDTV
> material.
>
> I should have a patch ready to submit by this weekend.
>
> John
>

john at BlueSkyTours

Jun 23, 2004, 10:14 AM

Post #10 of 17 (1912 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Cory Papenfuss wrote:

> So this patch would be changing the X resolution to match the video
> being played, or does it change the mythtv scaling routine?
>
> -Cory
>

It changes the X resolution, and *can* adjusts Myth's concept of the aspect
ratio. It would be up to the TV to then scale/stretch the video.

John

>
> *************************************************************************
> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> * - learn what you don't know, *
> * - teach what you do. *
> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> *************************************************************************
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, John Patrick Poet wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, John Sturgeon wrote:
> >
> >> Depending on your modeline, you can trick your HDTV set into doing it
> >> for you. If you can change your output resolution to 4:3 480p then your
> >> TV should recognize this and let you stretch it. Right now, my output
> >> resolution is 16:9 540p so my TV (Toshiba 51S500) only gives me 16:9 and
> >> 16:9 zoom. I'm willing to live with it. I don't know of a way to
> >> toggle output resolutions on the fly. If I could, then switching to a
> >> 4:3 resolution on demand would be great.
> >
> >
> > I have been working on this feature for the past couple of days. Pretty
> > much works, but I need to do some more testing.
> >
> > I can now specify a display resolution based on the input video
> > resolution.
> >
> > I have taken Doug Larrick work which allows separate GUI and video
> > resolutions, and expanded it.
> >
> > The reason this is useful to me, is I have a 4:3 HDTV. My TV automatically
> > goes into a vertical squeeze mode (resulting in a 16:9 aspect) when
> > presented with vertical resolutions above 480P. I generally use Myth to
> > watch HDTV, but would like it to be "full screen" when I watch SDTV
> > material.
> >
> > I should have a patch ready to submit by this weekend.
> >
> > John
> >
>

papenfuss at juneau

Jun 23, 2004, 10:36 AM

Post #11 of 17 (1911 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

I would imagine that this would be useful to folks without XV then, no?
Isn't the majority of the CPU power requirement for non-XV cards in the
software scaling? At the very least, it allows for non-scaled DVD resolutions,
etc. Does it use RANDR or just change the physical resolution (keeping the
root X window and consequently the virtual resolution the same)?

Interesting...
-Cory

*************************************************************************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
*************************************************************************

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, John Patrick Poet wrote:

>
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Cory Papenfuss wrote:
>
>> So this patch would be changing the X resolution to match the video
>> being played, or does it change the mythtv scaling routine?
>>
>> -Cory
>>
>
> It changes the X resolution, and *can* adjusts Myth's concept of the aspect
> ratio. It would be up to the TV to then scale/stretch the video.
>
>
> John
>
>
>>
>> *************************************************************************
>> * The prime directive of Linux: *
>> * - learn what you don't know, *
>> * - teach what you do. *
>> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
>> *************************************************************************
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, John Patrick Poet wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, John Sturgeon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Depending on your modeline, you can trick your HDTV set into doing it
>>>> for you. If you can change your output resolution to 4:3 480p then your
>>>> TV should recognize this and let you stretch it. Right now, my output
>>>> resolution is 16:9 540p so my TV (Toshiba 51S500) only gives me 16:9 and
>>>> 16:9 zoom. I'm willing to live with it. I don't know of a way to
>>>> toggle output resolutions on the fly. If I could, then switching to a
>>>> 4:3 resolution on demand would be great.
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been working on this feature for the past couple of days. Pretty
>>> much works, but I need to do some more testing.
>>>
>>> I can now specify a display resolution based on the input video
>>> resolution.
>>>
>>> I have taken Doug Larrick work which allows separate GUI and video
>>> resolutions, and expanded it.
>>>
>>> The reason this is useful to me, is I have a 4:3 HDTV. My TV automatically
>>> goes into a vertical squeeze mode (resulting in a 16:9 aspect) when
>>> presented with vertical resolutions above 480P. I generally use Myth to
>>> watch HDTV, but would like it to be "full screen" when I watch SDTV
>>> material.
>>>
>>> I should have a patch ready to submit by this weekend.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>

john at sturgeonfamily

Jun 23, 2004, 10:51 AM

Post #12 of 17 (1914 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

John Patrick Poet wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Cory Papenfuss wrote:
>
>
>
>> So this patch would be changing the X resolution to match the video
>>being played, or does it change the mythtv scaling routine?
>>
>>-Cory
>>
>>
>>
>
>It changes the X resolution, and *can* adjusts Myth's concept of the aspect
>ratio. It would be up to the TV to then scale/stretch the video.
>
>
>John
>
>
>

This realy is ideal. It pushes the scaling to the TV which is exactly
what I want.

Thanks John!

--
John S. <><
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

john at BlueSkyTours

Jun 23, 2004, 11:34 AM

Post #13 of 17 (1904 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Cory Papenfuss wrote:

> I would imagine that this would be useful to folks without XV then, no?
> Isn't the majority of the CPU power requirement for non-XV cards in the
> software scaling? At the very least, it allows for non-scaled DVD resolutions,
> etc. Does it use RANDR or just change the physical resolution (keeping the
> root X window and consequently the virtual resolution the same)?
>
> Interesting...
> -Cory

Do you mean XvMC? Pretty much the patch will ONLY be usefull to people
using X in one form or another. Either Xv or XvMC should work fine with it.

It uses xrandr to do the resolution switching. As Doug suggested in his
original version of the patch, it make a system call rather than using
library calls, to reduce the library dependancy.

I have also discovered that it does not work well with "light"
destktops/window managers. KDE and Gnome work fine, but ratpoison and XFCE
do not seem to do the right thing.

John

>
> *************************************************************************
> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> * - learn what you don't know, *
> * - teach what you do. *
> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> *************************************************************************
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, John Patrick Poet wrote:
>
> >
> > On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Cory Papenfuss wrote:
> >
> >> So this patch would be changing the X resolution to match the video
> >> being played, or does it change the mythtv scaling routine?
> >>
> >> -Cory
> >>
> >
> > It changes the X resolution, and *can* adjusts Myth's concept of the aspect
> > ratio. It would be up to the TV to then scale/stretch the video.
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >>
> >> *************************************************************************
> >> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> >> * - learn what you don't know, *
> >> * - teach what you do. *
> >> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> >> *************************************************************************
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, John Patrick Poet wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, John Sturgeon wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Depending on your modeline, you can trick your HDTV set into doing it
> >>>> for you. If you can change your output resolution to 4:3 480p then your
> >>>> TV should recognize this and let you stretch it. Right now, my output
> >>>> resolution is 16:9 540p so my TV (Toshiba 51S500) only gives me 16:9 and
> >>>> 16:9 zoom. I'm willing to live with it. I don't know of a way to
> >>>> toggle output resolutions on the fly. If I could, then switching to a
> >>>> 4:3 resolution on demand would be great.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have been working on this feature for the past couple of days. Pretty
> >>> much works, but I need to do some more testing.
> >>>
> >>> I can now specify a display resolution based on the input video
> >>> resolution.
> >>>
> >>> I have taken Doug Larrick work which allows separate GUI and video
> >>> resolutions, and expanded it.
> >>>
> >>> The reason this is useful to me, is I have a 4:3 HDTV. My TV automatically
> >>> goes into a vertical squeeze mode (resulting in a 16:9 aspect) when
> >>> presented with vertical resolutions above 480P. I generally use Myth to
> >>> watch HDTV, but would like it to be "full screen" when I watch SDTV
> >>> material.
> >>>
> >>> I should have a patch ready to submit by this weekend.
> >>>
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>
> >
>

papenfuss at juneau

Jun 23, 2004, 12:01 PM

Post #14 of 17 (1914 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

> Do you mean XvMC? Pretty much the patch will ONLY be usefull to people
> using X in one form or another. Either Xv or XvMC should work fine with it.

I was actually talking about XV extension. I know that XV does
hardware video scaling (like 720x480 on an 800x600 resolution). I was thinking
mostly about possibly getting more poop out of vid cards that don't have XV
(e.g. Matrox Millenium). If it didn't have to software-scale and could instead
switch hard resolutions, it might be faster. I think XV does colorspace
conversions as well though, right? If so it probably wouldn't help too much.

Due to my incredibly odd setup requiring interlacing, XV, and very low
frequency (NTSC) output, finding a video card that does them all is very tough.
I've found a R128 that will do it all (although XV driver is buggy and has
scaling problems). My Matrox doesn't do XV, and my NVIDIA doesn't do
interlacing.

>
> It uses xrandr to do the resolution switching. As Doug suggested in his
> original version of the patch, it make a system call rather than using
> library calls, to reduce the library dependancy.
Sounds like a good plan. RANDR is a pretty new feature for X IIRC.
>
> I have also discovered that it does not work well with "light"
> destktops/window managers. KDE and Gnome work fine, but ratpoison and XFCE
> do not seem to do the right thing.

Probably just not enough vitality to have it a priority yet.

myth at dgreaves

Jun 23, 2004, 1:15 PM

Post #15 of 17 (1913 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

John Sturgeon wrote:

> John Patrick Poet wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Cory Papenfuss wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> So this patch would be changing the X resolution to match the video
>>> being played, or does it change the mythtv scaling routine?
>>>
>>> -Cory
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> It changes the X resolution, and *can* adjusts Myth's concept of the
>> aspect
>> ratio. It would be up to the TV to then scale/stretch the video.
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>
> This realy is ideal. It pushes the scaling to the TV which is exactly
> what I want.
>
> Thanks John!
>
are you sure?
I understood that due the cpu power, PCs were generally better at
scaling than dedicated devices (by which I mean projectors, TVs etc, not
proper vga convertors and the like).

The ideal (I thought) is to get your PC to output 'device native resolution'

David

john at BlueSkyTours

Jun 23, 2004, 2:48 PM

Post #16 of 17 (1906 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, David wrote:

> John Sturgeon wrote:
>
> > John Patrick Poet wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Cory Papenfuss wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> So this patch would be changing the X resolution to match the video
> >>> being played, or does it change the mythtv scaling routine?
> >>>
> >>> -Cory
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> It changes the X resolution, and *can* adjusts Myth's concept of the
> >> aspect
> >> ratio. It would be up to the TV to then scale/stretch the video.
> >>
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > This realy is ideal. It pushes the scaling to the TV which is exactly
> > what I want.
> >
> > Thanks John!
> >
> are you sure?
> I understood that due the cpu power, PCs were generally better at
> scaling than dedicated devices (by which I mean projectors, TVs etc, not
> proper vga convertors and the like).
>
> The ideal (I thought) is to get your PC to output 'device native resolution'
>
> David
>

True, but John Sturgeon wants to take advantage of his TV's ability to
non-linear stretch 4:3 material onto his 16:9 screen. If we are talking a
linear stretch, Myth can do that well, but no one has written a non-linear
stretch mode.

When I buy a widescreen TV, I am probably going to splurge on DLP since that
technology does not suffer burn-in they way the rest of them do. I
personally prefer watching programs in their native aspect ratio, and don't
what the picture stretched. Even so, the ability to output different
resolutions based on the source resolution could be useful.

If the TV's native resolution is 720p, I would probably want Myth to output
everything at 720p. However, the TV might scale 1080i -> 720p better
itself, so I may want 1080i material passed to the TV unadulterated.

John

john at sturgeonfamily

Jun 23, 2004, 2:56 PM

Post #17 of 17 (1911 views)
Permalink

Re: HDTV? [In reply to]

David wrote:

> John Sturgeon wrote:
>
>>
>> This realy is ideal. It pushes the scaling to the TV which is
>> exactly what I want.
>>
>> Thanks John!
>>
> are you sure?
> I understood that due the cpu power, PCs were generally better at
> scaling than dedicated devices (by which I mean projectors, TVs etc, not
> proper vga convertors and the like).

Not at all... the scalers built into the modern HDTV sets are hardware
based and blazingly efficient (is that a term? Well.. it is now I
guess). Check out:
http://www.hitachi.us/tv/discover/techadv/tech_ad_proj07.shtml

Besides. No software I know of will scale a 4:3 picture quite like my
Hitachi's 4:3 Expanded mode. Sooooooo cool. The advantage for me is
that if I push some of the zooming/scaling/aspect ratio/virtual HD
control to my TV it provides me the most flexibility.

>
> The ideal (I thought) is to get your PC to output 'device native
> resolution'
>
> David

Just what is 'device native resolution' when you're sending a 720x480
4:3 picture to a 16:9 HDTV monitor (for example)? The monitor changes
its behavior based on the input. The idea that John Patrick is working
on fits perfectly in this model because the source signal will finally
change it's *output* to match. The world I live in now has a 4:3
picture with black borders being sent to my HDTV monitor as a 16:9
resolution source. My HDTV monitor doesn't give me all of the aspect
ratio and scaling options that would normally be available for 4:3
source material.

--
John <><

_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

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