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Disk Space Way Wrong

 

 

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mythtv at rtr

Apr 20, 2012, 7:31 PM

Post #26 of 74 (2227 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 12-04-20 09:04 PM, Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
>
>
> On Saturday, 21 April 2012, Zarthan South wrote:
>
> No, I believe Mark is a Linux Kernel developer.
>
>
> I'm very well aware of his contributions to the kernel and his work on libata.
> That doesn't prevent the fact that contributing a patch

Patch already contributed, earlier in this thread.
If you want it, then grab it, please.

For a casual user (that's what I am here) to figure out an entire new
system and drop the patch into the vast ignored pool of patches already
in trac would be a complete waste of my time.

But for somebody already "in the system", like you, it would be much simpler.
Go for it.

Cheers
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mythtv at rtr

Apr 20, 2012, 7:35 PM

Post #27 of 74 (2235 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 12-04-20 09:04 PM, Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
>
>
> On Saturday, 21 April 2012, Zarthan South wrote:
>
> No, I believe Mark is a Linux Kernel developer.
>
>
> I'm very well aware of his contributions to the kernel and his work on libata.

I should take the opportunity to publicly thank-you for your recent audio work
in mythtv. I just pulled your 0.24-fixes branch the other day to get the 0.25 stuff,
and it works fairly well.

Once in a while (about 1/5) mythfrontend starts up without audio,
but that's only to be expected I suppose. I just quit and restart
the player and then it works second try.

Probably PulseAudio getting in the way -- so I've now removed pulseaudio
from the system and we'll see how things manage going forward.

Cheers
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gjhurlbu at gmail

Apr 20, 2012, 11:47 PM

Post #28 of 74 (2226 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Mark Lord <mythtv [at] rtr> wrote:
> Patch already contributed, earlier in this thread.
> If you want it, then grab it, please.

As I'm sure you know, this isn't the chosen venue for patches for this
project. I don't care how other projects may do it, honestly, here we
try to use trac to track such things.

> For a casual user (that's what I am here) to figure out an entire new
> system and drop the patch into the vast ignored pool of patches already
> in trac would be a complete waste of my time.

Now you are claiming that you, who maintains "a hundred or so" patches
is a casual user? Hardly. You've already determined enough about the
codebase to make the patches. That and your bio from Linux Symposium
2010 claims you have the "most complex MythTV installation in the
world". You are not a "casual user". I dare say you likely aren't
even close on that other claim either.

Trac is hardly a "vast ignored pool of patches". Seems to me that
you're making this up as you go along, and with absolutely no
reference into reality. With 329 open tickets out of nearly 11000
tickets, most of which have no patches at all, you are certainly
mischaracterizing the nature of our trac setup. What this comes down
to is that you can't be bothered to contribute in a way that's helpful
to those running the project, but would prefer to take nasty sniping
shots at us as often as possible.

No, if there is a complete waste of time involved here, it wouldn't be
in you creating tickets.

> But for somebody already "in the system", like you, it would be much simpler.
> Go for it.

This is idiotic. You claim there is a bug, you don't report it, you
mumble about it much later on, and then waste everyone's time by
trying to pretend that you are better than everyone else, and that
putting in proper bug reports is beneath you. It is dead simple to
put in a bug report, and even to attach a ticket to it. Writing all
these emails saying it would be a waste of your time has taken you
more time than it would have to report the bugs you've found in a way
that benefits all.

Let me be very clear here: If you have identified up to "a hundred or
so" patches that you feel need to be in MythTV for proper operation,
by not submitting bug reports, you are doing a disservice to every
other user out there.

As for your condescending attitude about proper use of symlinks, I
barely know where to start. Excessive symlinks degrade system
performance, particularly when every open of every file in every
storage group will now take at least twice as long as it needs to
dereference the symlink and do yet another seek on the harddrive and
read yet another set of inodes. As someone who actually knows what
that means, I'm quite honestly shocked that you think it's correct
operating procedure to use symlinks instead of mount points for this
job, just to save you the few extra seconds to change paths in
mythtv-setup the few times that you DO move it.

What you should be doing is mounting the storage group file systems at
mount points where ever you want them, and not to move them around.
The fact that you want to move them around just screams out that you
don't know what you are doing as you feel you need to rearchitect your
filesystem structure, and apparently, repeatedly. Set it up the way
you want it, then set MythTV to point to the real mount points, then
leave it alone. It works for thousands of other users, what's so
special about your setup that would require otherwise?
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lists at glidos

Apr 21, 2012, 12:19 AM

Post #29 of 74 (2228 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 21/04/2012 03:35, Mark Lord wrote:
> On 12-04-20 09:04 PM, Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, 21 April 2012, Zarthan South wrote:
>>
>> No, I believe Mark is a Linux Kernel developer.
>>
>>
>> I'm very well aware of his contributions to the kernel and his work on libata.
>
> I should take the opportunity to publicly thank-you for your recent audio work
> in mythtv. I just pulled your 0.24-fixes branch the other day to get the 0.25 stuff,
> and it works fairly well.

Ok, while we are at it, make that a +1. I haven't managed to upgrade to
0.25 yet, but I've been using personal/jyavenard/backports/fixes/0.24
just to get some of the audio improvements.

Cheers,
Paul.
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linux at thehobsons

Apr 21, 2012, 12:53 AM

Post #30 of 74 (2225 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

Gavin Hurlbut wrote:

<much good comment snipped>

> > But for somebody already "in the system", like you, it would be
>much simpler.
>> Go for it.
>
>This is idiotic. You claim there is a bug, you don't report it, you
>mumble about it much later on, and then waste everyone's time by
>trying to pretend that you are better than everyone else, and that
>putting in proper bug reports is beneath you.

I find myself wondering what response someone would get from the
kernel developers if he was (as you point out) most definitely not
ignorant about code, knew of a heap of bugs, had fixes for them, but
refused to submit either bug reports or the patches through the
proper channel.

I agree, does come across as a "better than you because I work on the
kernel" attitude.

<more good comment snipped>

I agree entirely with your well written rebuttal.

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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mythtv at rtr

Apr 21, 2012, 7:02 AM

Post #31 of 74 (2217 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 12-04-21 02:47 AM, Gavin Hurlbut wrote:
..
> Trac is hardly a "vast ignored pool of patches". Seems to me that
> you're making this up as you go along, and with absolutely no
> reference into reality. With 329 open tickets out of nearly 11000
> tickets, most of which have no patches at all, you are certainly
> mischaracterizing the nature of our trac setup. What this comes down
> to is that you can't be bothered to contribute in a way that's helpful
> to those running the project, but would prefer to take nasty sniping
> shots at us as often as possible.

The only people taking nasty shots at anyone here seem to be
folks like you, and the others here who misconstrue my intents
based upon the surname I was born with.

I found a bug, I posted code showing how to fix it.
That's all. On the kernel mailing lists, code like that would
be picked up by the maintainers and End of Story.

I'm not interested in spending a huge amount of time and effort
to figure out the trac system, the git system, and mostly the
people system that all have to be solved to actually get that
code into the mythtv code base.

It's just too much time and effort.
The barriers to entry are too high for the time I have available.

It's not that I don't contribute (I do, hugely, just not to the mythtv git repo),
nor is that I don't want to help. I do, otherwise I wouldn't post code
and help others on this list with issues.

So tone down your overreactions and perhaps try to get along.

Cheers
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ron at ronfrazier

Apr 21, 2012, 10:13 AM

Post #32 of 74 (2215 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

This thread makes me so sad. The way Mark has been responded to in
this thread is just uncalled for. He was nothing but respectful in
this thread, helped identify a problem, and even provided code to deal
with it. The only thing he said that was perhaps questionable was
"Symlinks are an incredibly useful feature, you should discover them
someday." That last part of that could certain be better worded, but I
took it as more tounge-in-cheek than insulting.

Meanwhile, he has been responded to by sarcastically comparing him to
Jesus, mocking for his attempts to contribute in the way he chooses,
told that he thinks he's better than everyone else, and told he
doesn't know what he's doing in organizing a file system. I understand
that some posters get pretty nasty around here in their bitching about
what a poor job they think the devs do, and it make some people around
here sensitive to comments. But what Mark posted was nothing like
that, and he did not deserve the response he got.

The comment about "hundred or so workarounds already in my local tree"
was not something I took as an attack on myth. I too have a bunch of
patches (though not 100). Some I submit. Other I attempt to discuss
for possible inclusion and don't get a positive response. Others I
just dont bother with because, frankly, you sort of get a feel for
what sorts of things the devs aren't interested in and don't want to
waste time debating the merits of something you think will go nowhere
(admittedly, I've been wrong in that assumption once). Other patches I
feel are for something very particular to what I want, or at the very
least would need to be configurable for other users taste and I just
don't feel like taking the time to add the config options to the setup
screens. Others patches are quite hacky and work for me, but they
aren't very clean and I'd be embarrassed to submit them. In short,
there are a lot of reason one would just hack together patches for
themselves and not submit it. But that's not some insult to the devs
to say that you do.

--
Ron Frazier
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briandlong at gmail

Apr 21, 2012, 10:46 AM

Post #33 of 74 (2204 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Ronald Frazier <ron [at] ronfrazier> wrote:

> This thread makes me so sad. The way Mark has been responded to in
> this thread is just uncalled for. He was nothing but respectful in
> this thread, helped identify a problem, and even provided code to deal
> with it. The only thing he said that was perhaps questionable was
> "Symlinks are an incredibly useful feature, you should discover them
> someday." That last part of that could certain be better worded, but I
> took it as more tounge-in-cheek than insulting.
>
> Meanwhile, he has been responded to by sarcastically comparing him to
> Jesus, mocking for his attempts to contribute in the way he chooses,
> told that he thinks he's better than everyone else, and told he
> doesn't know what he's doing in organizing a file system. I understand
> that some posters get pretty nasty around here in their bitching about
> what a poor job they think the devs do, and it make some people around
> here sensitive to comments. But what Mark posted was nothing like
> that, and he did not deserve the response he got.
>

+1. Let's just try to get along. MythTV is a great open-source project
and I've been privileged to use it for many years. It seems that recently
more and more arguments and general nastiness has broken out on this list
and it's not appreciated. If you don't have something nice to say, don't
say anything at all. :-)

/Brian/


raymond at wagnerrp

Apr 21, 2012, 11:48 AM

Post #34 of 74 (2206 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 4/21/2012 13:13, Ronald Frazier wrote:
> This thread makes me so sad. The way Mark has been responded to in
> this thread is just uncalled for.

So far, I agree with you completely. At some point the thread degraded
into just a bunch of character attacks from both sides. MythTV
developers should be showing a good public face to the community, and
partake when the discussion reaches that, as amusing as that may
sometimes be...

Example: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/187438#187438

On the other hand, if Mark Lord is going to invoke his authoritative
knowledge as a long time kernel developer involved in storage interface
drivers, he should be held to no less of a standard of behavior.

> He was nothing but respectful in this thread, helped identify a problem, and even provided code to deal with it.

At first, yes, however this whole thread started due to his mention of
an "old bug" that none of us had even heard of.

On 4/20/2012 12:40, Mark Lord wrote:
> Symlinks are a "normal" (not "strange") thing on Linux,
> and are often overlooked by folks more familiar with
> only Microsoft systems (which lack them).

This is where the discussion took a turn downhill. Mark "threw the
first punch", as it were. Now he may have meant this as a joke, but
from experience having been corrected by Mark in the past, many times
where he was correct, sometimes where he was not, Mark is never wrong.
This felt like an insult, as if I was a Windows weenie, not experienced
with using Linux. Admittedly, my OS of choice is FreeBSD, rather than
some blend of GNU/Linux, but that's besides the point as symlinks are a
POSIX standard not specific to Linux, and even Windows has support for them.

If there were a rational argument for allowing symlinks as storage
directories, I would gladly apply the patch. However, I just don't see
one, and the only argument for it was that it is how Mark configures his
systems. You can't argue with that, and since I am guilty of getting
into such character arguments in the past, I bowed out at this point.

> The comment about "hundred or so workarounds already in my local tree"
> was not something I took as an attack on myth. I too have a bunch of
> patches (though not 100). Some I submit. Other I attempt to discuss
> for possible inclusion and don't get a positive response. Others I
> just dont bother with because, frankly, you sort of get a feel for
> what sorts of things the devs aren't interested in and don't want to
> waste time debating the merits of something you think will go nowhere
> (admittedly, I've been wrong in that assumption once). Other patches I
> feel are for something very particular to what I want, or at the very
> least would need to be configurable for other users taste and I just
> don't feel like taking the time to add the config options to the setup
> screens. Others patches are quite hacky and work for me, but they
> aren't very clean and I'd be embarrassed to submit them. In short,
> there are a lot of reason one would just hack together patches for
> themselves and not submit it.

Maintaining your own patch set is perfectly fine. Maybe you are
tweaking behavior, or adding new features, in some manner that would not
have significant appeal. Maybe you are adding features that you know
would not be accepted upstream for whatever reason. Maybe you are using
assorted bug fixes for tickets still open on trac. The attack on Myth
was where he claimed it had bugs, knew what they were, but let that
knowledge sit for years without telling anyone so it could be fixed. No
doubt about it, MythTV is full of bugs, but we can't do anything about
it if we don't know where they are. Especially if they are induced by
some sufficiently strange configuration that no one else has experienced
them.

So going back to the original argument, is this a bug, or is it merely
an unsupported configuration? Now one could argue that even if it isn't
supported now, it should be, the the better question is, is there any
reason to try to record to a symlinked directory? The argument for says
that it allows you to conveniently and quickly reorganize your
filesystem structure. The argument against is that MythTV's storage
directories allow you to reorganize your filesystem just as well. Just
run mythtv-setup, spend a few seconds typing in a new path, and you're done.

Now one might not have a partition or disk dedicated towards MythTV
recordings, they may have other content stored on it. Shifting that
around would mean one would have to update MythTV, as well as any other
applications that had content stored on that partition. However,
symlinks would work perfectly fine in this scenario. MythTV would not
be pointed at the symlink directly, but rather at some folder
transparently dereferenced inside that symlink.

That leaves the one scenario where you have symlinks pointed directly at
the recording directories AND you have applications other than MythTV
accessing those directories. This is where the disconnect occurs.
Those directories, and the contents contained therein, are MythTV's and
MythTV's alone. You don't care what's in there. You don't rename them,
besides to change the extension as part of transcoding. If you want to
access them with pretty names, use mythlink.pl to provide symlinks
directory to each recording in whatever format you desire. If you want
more programmatic access to the recordings, you hit the database
directly to discover the filename for the video you want, the defined
storage directories, and then search through them until you find the
absolute path to the recording.

In much shorter words, the patch is to make a particular configuration
work, whose only advantage is to make it easier to perform tasks that we
don't want users doing. Since the behavior is undesirable, there is no
point to the configuration from MythTV's standpoint, making it
unsupported. An unsupported configuration that causes certain things to
break is not a bug, just an unsupported configuration.
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raymond at wagnerrp

Apr 21, 2012, 11:50 AM

Post #35 of 74 (2207 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 4/21/2012 14:48, Raymond Wagner wrote:
> MythTV developers should be showing a good public face to the
> community, and partake when the discussion reaches that

Make that "NOT partake".
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ron at ronfrazier

Apr 21, 2012, 12:50 PM

Post #36 of 74 (2212 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp> wrote:
>> He was nothing but respectful in this thread, helped identify a problem,
>> and even provided code to deal with it.
>
>
> At first, yes, however this whole thread started due to his mention of an
> "old bug" that none of us had even heard of.

Saying something is an old bug is disrespectful? Sorry, but that's
just a statement of fact. It is an old bug. I too noticed it quite a
while ago. You know why I never reported it? It just wasn't that
important. I almost certainly was trying to do something at the time,
came across that at the time, said "that aint right", looked at it for
a few minutes, and then went about what I was originally trying to do.
I'll admit I often notice little bugs in software, but I don't halt
everything I'm working on to go report them on the spot. By the time
I'm done with what I'm really trying to do, the bug is far from my
mind.


>> Symlinks are a "normal" (not "strange") thing on Linux,
>> and are often overlooked by folks more familiar with
>> only Microsoft systems (which lack them).
>
>
> This is where the discussion took a turn downhill.  Mark "threw the first
> punch", as it were.   Now he may have meant this as a joke, but from
> experience having been corrected by Mark in the past, many times where he
> was correct, sometimes where he was not, Mark is never wrong.  This felt
> like an insult, as if I was a Windows weenie, not experienced with using
> Linux.  Admittedly, my OS of choice is FreeBSD, rather than some blend of
> GNU/Linux, but that's besides the point as symlinks are a POSIX standard not
> specific to Linux, and even Windows has support for them.

That's a pretty low bar for "the first punch". It is a fact that
windows people don't think about symlinks much. Windows does support
them...sort of. But their implementation is a lot less robust than in
linux, and for what they can do people just don't tend to use them
very often. But that doesn't say anything negative about a windows
user unfamiliar with them (in fact, if anything, you were the one who
just used the term "windows weenie"). It's just not something typical
among windows users. However, for a linux user, I do agree with Mark
that it's a bit odd for someone to consider use of symlinks to be an
odd configuration.


> If there were a rational argument for allowing symlinks as storage
> directories, I would gladly apply the patch.  However, I just don't see one,
> and the only argument for it was that it is how Mark configures his systems.

Wow. You need a rational argument? See, I can clearly see the
explanation that, you know, this isn't really a major issue, it
doesn't affect that many people, and I'm not going to take the time to
write a fix for it. That's perfectly valid. There are a million things
to do, and everyone has limited time, so we need to pick our battles.
But see, first mark is told he needs to go to the effort of making the
patch and creating the ticket, but then you turn around and suggest
you wouldn't apply it anyway unless someone can provide a good reason.
Can you see why some people don't want to go to the effort of
submitting bugs and patches?


> The attack on Myth was where he
> claimed it had bugs, knew what they were, but let that knowledge sit for
> years without telling anyone so it could be fixed.  No doubt about it,
> MythTV is full of bugs, but we can't do anything about it if we don't know
> where they are.  Especially if they are induced by some sufficiently strange
> configuration that no one else has experienced them.

Don't want to repeat myself here...I think this was already addresses
by my first paragraph above.


> So going back to the original argument, is this a bug, or is it merely an
> unsupported configuration?  Now one could argue that even if it isn't
> supported now, it should be, the the better question is, is there any reason
> to try to record to a symlinked directory?  The argument for says that it
> allows you to conveniently and quickly reorganize your filesystem structure.
>  The argument against is that MythTV's storage directories allow you to
> reorganize your filesystem just as well.  Just run mythtv-setup, spend a few
> seconds typing in a new path, and you're done.

I do 99% of my work on my mythbox from my windows system through SSH.
This is very convenient, and if I want to move a symlink, I can do it
in 5 seconds. If I want to change a storage group, my mythbox is in
the basement, tucked away in a corner where it is unobtrusive for the
family. Unfortunately, a side effect of that is that I don't have room
to leave a monitor hooked up. So I have to go downstairs, drag a
monitor over to it and hook it up, do what I need, and then put
everything away after I'm sure I've done. Now, when I need to do
something in mythtv-setup, that's fine. But when I can do something in
5 seconds instead of several minutes, I'm gonna spend the 5 seconds.
If this were some huge ugly hack, that would be one thing, but this is
pretty standard stuff.

As for the rest of what you said about why symlinks aren't a valid
configuration and you shouldn't even want to look at anything in the
folder and so on....I'm going to hugely disagree, but at this point I
don't even care enough to argue. It's not worth my time. But let me
summarize it like this. You complain because he never submitted a bug
report. If he had submitted a bug, you make it clear that it's not a
bug but a feature request. We all know how those get rejected if they
don't contain patches. However, if he had submitted the feature
request with patch, you would still shoot it down because you think
myth should purposely ignore symlinks because it's not a valid
configuration. So tell me, what COULD mark have done that would have
pleased you? Bug report? Rejected. Feature request? Rejected. Feature
request with patch? Rejected. So are you just upset that he didn't go
through the motions of making a futile request?


--
Ron Frazier
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raymond at wagnerrp

Apr 21, 2012, 1:36 PM

Post #37 of 74 (2207 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 4/21/2012 15:50, Ronald Frazier wrote:
> You complain because he never submitted a bug report.

Correct. If he's going to go off telling people their issues are caused
by old known bugs, he needs to post a ticket so that we actually know
its a bug.

> If he had submitted a bug, you make it clear that it's not a
> bug but a feature request.

That's really up to the discretion of the person doing triage. If it's
a behavior we don't want MythTV to have, or use of MythTV in some manner
it is not supposed to operate, it would be closed Invalid or Won't Fix.
If it's a behavior we could see useful in MythTV, but outside the scope
of the existing programming, it would be closed as a Feature Request
Without Patch, or left open if patch was included. If it's something
MythTV is supposed to do, but is not doing it, it's a valid bug.

> However, if he had submitted the feature request with patch,
> you would still shoot it down because you think myth should
> purposely ignore symlinks because it's not a valid configuration.

In this case, he actually did provide a patch. However, for the
specific case of definition of recording storage, I don't see any
utility in being able to define it using symlinks. Consider recordings
as MythTV's own internal data, and all access to it must be done by
MythTV's rules. Doing otherwise would be like writing something that
directly tinkered with the binary files of a MySQL database. Sure you
can do it, but MySQL isn't going to support you doing so, or be
responsible if something goes wrong. If you're not supposed to be doing
it in the first place, why support a configuration that only serves to
aid such actions?

With things like videos, music, and artwork switching over to access
through storage groups, these are things that actually do make sense for
external access. If MythTV gains the ability to shuffle such content
around, and more specifically to shuffle it around to balance free space
between multiple partitions, this behavior will have to be revisited,
and at least within the context of non-recorded content, would become a
proper bug.

> So tell me, what COULD mark have done that would have pleased you?

If he comes across something he thinks is a bug, spend 30 seconds and
put a ticket up on Trac. He already spent enough time to figure out it
was his use of symlinks that caused it, which is plenty to figure out
where the problem lies. If there's not enough information to root out
or otherwise verify the issue, it gets marked as Info Needed, and closed
six weeks later if no response is given. He, or anyone else, could
respond to give enough information to properly describe it and keep the
ticket alive. At such point as the ticket is closed as invalid due to
an unsupported configuration, stop calling it a bug. It's not a bug,
it's an unsupported configuration that when used, is known to cause at
least <whatever> incorrect behavior.
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linux at thehobsons

Apr 21, 2012, 2:01 PM

Post #38 of 74 (2200 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

Ronald Frazier wrote:

>I do 99% of my work on my mythbox from my windows system through SSH.

Ditto, apart from using a Mac rather than windows.

>... my mythbox is in the basement, tucked away in a corner where it
>is unobtrusive for the family. Unfortunately, a side effect of that
>is that I don't have room to leave a monitor hooked up.

Almost ditto - it's in a cupboard under the roof, it does actually
have an old tiny 10" screen attached but the only time I use that is
if I'm fiddling with it's boot setup etc. Haven't switched the
display on for some time - I could do without it but I'd only have to
find space elsewhere to store it.

>So I have to go downstairs, drag a monitor over to it and hook it
>up, do what I need, and then put everything away after I'm sure I've
>done. Now, when I need to do something in mythtv-setup, that's fine.
>But when I can do something in 5 seconds instead of several minutes,
>I'm gonna spend the 5 seconds.

Why do you waste all that time and effort ? I run mythtv-setup from
my desk - just "ssh -X <user [at] backen address>" and fire up
mythtv-setup. It fires up in an X session right here on my laptop.
OK, many many years ago you needed to "know incantations" to get
remote X displays working, but the "-X" (or "-Y") option in SSH does
it all automagically. It's built in to OS X, dunno what's needed to
make it work in Windows - but if you work with Unix-like system then
it's worth finding out.
I've run entire KDE desktops like this in the past.

It seems really odd when I do have to work on a real console, such as
when I've a machine that won't boot properly.


Having said that, I can see the point of symlinks (all them all the
time myself), but I find it hard to get excited about using them to
point Myth at it's storage directories. I can see why people might
want to use them, but if it matters to you, then you could pick up
the patch and submit it properly - as long as it doesn't break
anything then I'd imagine it could be taken up.

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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michael at thewatsonfamily

Apr 21, 2012, 2:52 PM

Post #39 of 74 (2206 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 22/04/2012 3:13 AM, Ronald Frazier wrote:
> This thread makes me so sad. The way Mark has been responded to in
> this thread is just uncalled for. He was nothing but respectful in
> this thread, helped identify a problem, and even provided code to deal
> with it. The only thing he said that was perhaps questionable was
> "Symlinks are an incredibly useful feature, you should discover them
> someday." That last part of that could certain be better worded, but I
> took it as more tounge-in-cheek than insulting.
>
> Meanwhile, he has been responded to by sarcastically comparing him to
> Jesus, mocking for his attempts to contribute in the way he chooses,
> told that he thinks he's better than everyone else, and told he
> doesn't know what he's doing in organizing a file system. I understand
> that some posters get pretty nasty around here in their bitching about
> what a poor job they think the devs do, and it make some people around
> here sensitive to comments. But what Mark posted was nothing like
> that, and he did not deserve the response he got.

I agree, and its a very disturbing/disappointing trend. Similar to the
somewhat unwarranted attack on Robert McNamara.

>
> The comment about "hundred or so workarounds already in my local tree"
> was not something I took as an attack on myth. I too have a bunch of
> patches (though not 100). Some I submit. Other I attempt to discuss
> for possible inclusion and don't get a positive response. Others I
> just dont bother with because, frankly, you sort of get a feel for
> what sorts of things the devs aren't interested in and don't want to
> waste time debating the merits of something you think will go nowhere
> (admittedly, I've been wrong in that assumption once). Other patches I
> feel are for something very particular to what I want, or at the very
> least would need to be configurable for other users taste and I just
> don't feel like taking the time to add the config options to the setup
> screens. Others patches are quite hacky and work for me, but they
> aren't very clean and I'd be embarrassed to submit them. In short,
> there are a lot of reason one would just hack together patches for
> themselves and not submit it. But that's not some insult to the devs
> to say that you do.
>

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raymond at wagnerrp

Apr 21, 2012, 2:54 PM

Post #40 of 74 (2203 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 4/21/2012 17:01, Simon Hobson wrote:
> It's built in to OS X, dunno what's needed to make it work in Windows
> - but if you work with Unix-like system then it's worth finding out.

Putty can be made to interface with Cygwin/X or Xming on Windows to do
the same kind of authentication, or you can forgo SSH tunneling, perform
the xauth or xhost behavior yourself, and point an xterm or otherwise
directly at your remote X server.
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gary.buhrmaster at gmail

Apr 21, 2012, 2:59 PM

Post #41 of 74 (2200 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 13:36, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp> wrote:
....
> Correct.  If he's going to go off telling people their issues are caused by
> old known bugs, he needs to post a ticket so that we actually know its a
> bug.

I cannot more strongly agree with this.

Unless someone wishes the developers to move to the next
phase, and become omniscient. It is not an issue until it
is in the (bug) tracking database. I have had this exact
discussion with many others. It is not going to be "known
to be broken" until it is documented. It is not going to get
"resourced" until it can be documented as broken.

> ....  It's not a bug, it's an unsupported
> configuration that when used, is known to cause at least <whatever>
> incorrect behavior.

Here is where I have a slight problem. If that space calculation
is used for decisions elsewhere in the code(s), which seems
likely, then the decision to do things like use the space,
or delete recordings, may be (wrongly) influenced by getting
the wrong values for free space. Debugging those cases takes
time too (whether on the users list, or the dev list, or as tickets
for people for which things "do not work right"). Either the codes
should not follow symlinks (that cross file system boundaries),
warn the user and not startup if unsupported configurations are
found, or to (try to) correctly calculate the (free) space which will
be used to influence other MythTV behavior. Pick your feature
request (without a patch :-).

Gary
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michael at thewatsonfamily

Apr 21, 2012, 3:04 PM

Post #42 of 74 (2196 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 22/04/2012 7:54 AM, Raymond Wagner wrote:
> On 4/21/2012 17:01, Simon Hobson wrote:
>> It's built in to OS X, dunno what's needed to make it work in Windows
>> - but if you work with Unix-like system then it's worth finding out.
>
> Putty can be made to interface with Cygwin/X or Xming on Windows to do
> the same kind of authentication, or you can forgo SSH tunneling,
> perform the xauth or xhost behavior yourself, and point an xterm or
> otherwise directly at your remote X server.
> _______________________________________________
Or simply use MobaXterm (Terminal client, with built in X Server)


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dl-mythtv at catspoiler

Apr 21, 2012, 3:14 PM

Post #43 of 74 (2198 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 21 Apr, Simon Hobson wrote:
> Ronald Frazier wrote:

>>So I have to go downstairs, drag a monitor over to it and hook it
>>up, do what I need, and then put everything away after I'm sure I've
>>done. Now, when I need to do something in mythtv-setup, that's fine.
>>But when I can do something in 5 seconds instead of several minutes,
>>I'm gonna spend the 5 seconds.
>
> Why do you waste all that time and effort ? I run mythtv-setup from
> my desk - just "ssh -X <user [at] backen address>" and fire up
> mythtv-setup. It fires up in an X session right here on my laptop.
> OK, many many years ago you needed to "know incantations" to get
> remote X displays working, but the "-X" (or "-Y") option in SSH does
> it all automagically.

Same here. I've got a combined FE/BE, but I still run mythtv-setup more
frequently from my desktop using ssh than I do from the living room
where the FE/BE and TV are located since my desktop has a much more
ergonomic configuration for using a keyboard than what I've got in the
living room.

My only complaints are that mythtv-setup paints the screen very slowly
over ssh, and it takes over the entire screen. I'm looking forward to
the upcoming switch to web based configuration.

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Apr 21, 2012, 3:17 PM

Post #44 of 74 (2212 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 04/21/2012 06:14 PM, Don Lewis wrote:
> On 21 Apr, Simon Hobson wrote:
>> Ronald Frazier wrote:
>>> So I have to go downstairs, drag a monitor over to it and hook it
>>> up, do what I need, and then put everything away after I'm sure I've
>>> done. Now, when I need to do something in mythtv-setup, that's fine.
>>> But when I can do something in 5 seconds instead of several minutes,
>>> I'm gonna spend the 5 seconds.
>> Why do you waste all that time and effort ? I run mythtv-setup from
>> my desk - just "ssh -X<user [at] backen address>" and fire up
>> mythtv-setup. It fires up in an X session right here on my laptop.
>> OK, many many years ago you needed to "know incantations" to get
>> remote X displays working, but the "-X" (or "-Y") option in SSH does
>> it all automagically.
> Same here. I've got a combined FE/BE, but I still run mythtv-setup more
> frequently from my desktop using ssh than I do from the living room
> where the FE/BE and TV are located since my desktop has a much more
> ergonomic configuration for using a keyboard than what I've got in the
> living room.
>
> My only complaints are that mythtv-setup paints the screen very slowly
> over ssh, and it takes over the entire screen. I'm looking forward to
> the upcoming switch to web based configuration.

Set your Paint engine in 0.25+ to auto and start mythtv-setup with
-geometry 800x600 (or 1280x720 or whatever)...

Note that auto is not the default--because of all the broken
hardware/drivers/configurations on which OpenGL says it will work, but
doesn't.

Mike
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ron at ronfrazier

Apr 21, 2012, 3:20 PM

Post #45 of 74 (2194 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Simon Hobson <linux [at] thehobsons> wrote:
> Why do you waste all that time and effort ? I run mythtv-setup from my desk
> - just "ssh -X <user [at] backen address>" and fire up mythtv-setup. It fires up
> in an X session right here on my laptop.
> OK, many many years ago you needed to "know incantations" to get remote X
> displays working, but the "-X" (or "-Y") option in SSH does it all
> automagically. It's built in to OS X, dunno what's needed to make it work in
> Windows - but if you work with Unix-like system then it's worth finding out.
> I've run entire KDE desktops like this in the past.

Unforunately, Windopws isn't nearly as friendly as OSX in that
respect. There's no built in support for it, so you have to rely on
3rd party software. I'll admit it's been a number of years since I
last tried, but last time I successfully did it, I found it to be a
huge pain to setup and configure, and it didn't perform very well.
Maybe things have changed since, but I sort of wrote it off back then
due to the unpleasant experience. Guess you could say it scarred me
for life :-) Maybe it's worth getting over my aversion and trying
again, but for as rarely as I need to do so (more often I need to get
into the bios or something) it just never seems worth the trouble of
trying.



--
Ron Frazier
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gary.buhrmaster at gmail

Apr 21, 2012, 3:31 PM

Post #46 of 74 (2198 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 15:20, Ronald Frazier <ron [at] ronfrazier> wrote:
> ... Maybe it's worth getting over my aversion and trying
> again, but for as rarely as I need to do so (more often I need to get
> into the bios or something) it just never seems worth the trouble of
> trying.

The Lantronix SpiderDuo is an invaluable device for those
that have a need to (occasionally) have a remote KVM
available that allows one access into (even) the bios
screens when the target system was purchased with
out of band remote management (and that includes almost
all of the non-vPro consumer boxes, and all too many
cheaper "servers"). A little pricey (although the prices
recently came down), but sometimes it is worth it
(and it is much easier to carry around in the backback
with a laptop than the screen and keyboard when I have
to go to a remote colo for some "adjustment" that
a remote power reset did not address).

Gary
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jyavenard at gmail

Apr 21, 2012, 3:37 PM

Post #47 of 74 (2198 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On Sunday, 22 April 2012, Mark Lord wrote:

>
> The only people taking nasty shots at anyone here seem to be
> folks like you, and the others here who misconstrue my intents
> based upon the surname I was born with.
>
>
Oh come on...

For the record, this is the message I sent to Mark immediately after his
earlier message

"Actually; it's only after posting this that I realised on how it could be
linked to me making fun of your name.
Definitely wasn't the case. I didn't think about your name at all then.

I apologised if it came across that way. "

No one has taken personal shots...

Looks like I should just ignore this user list from now on...


dl-mythtv at catspoiler

Apr 21, 2012, 3:50 PM

Post #48 of 74 (2209 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 20 Apr, Mark Lord wrote:
> On 12-04-20 12:51 PM, Raymond Wagner wrote:
>> On 4/20/2012 12:40, Mark Lord wrote:
>>>>>> It's not doing anything fancy, it just runs statfs on the path
>>>>>>you give it. There's the bug. It should open the path, and the
>>>>>>use fstatfs(fd, ..).
>>>>> Doing it that way would make symlinks transparent to it, as they
>>>>>should be. So less a bug, and more a feature request (with a patch)
>>>>>for a strange and uncommon configuration.
>>> All eight mythtv setups that I know about have the same style of
>>> configuration.
>>
>> So they're all strange. Why not just point MythTV directly at the
>> directory? MythTV only ever records to the root of the directory you
>> give it, so it's not like symlinking in multiple folders is going to
>> get you more storage space. You still have to define each in
>> mythtv-setup. It's not going to allow you to bypass some file
>> permissions restrictions. Even if you frequently move the mount
>> location of those storage drives, symlinks are only slightly more
>> convenient to change than the values in mythtv-setup.
>>
>> I'm just not understanding what benefit doing it that way could
>> provide.
>
> It lets me move the storage directories around without having to
> fuss with mythtv-setup and other places that might have a hardcoded
> path.

If you follow the advice here
<http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Storage_Groups> about not storing recordings
directly under mount points, you can still use symlinks to point to the
actual mount points and the disk space will be reported correctly.

> Symlinks are an incredibly useful feature, you should discover them
> someday.

I'm not a fan of using symlinks for this for multiple, though minor,
reasons.

There's always the danger of creating a dangling link. It shows
up in the output of ls, but you have to try to do something that
actually follows the link to verify that it actually points
somewhere valid.

The paths in the output of df will differ from mythweb backend
status, which means that I have to expend some additional mental
cycles to translate between the two.

As a csh user, I find it annoying that when I cd to a path that
contains a link, then when I try to return using .., I end up
somewhere else than were I want. Bash hides the fact that a
symbolic link has been followed, but I'm not sure that's always
a feature.

In all the years that I've been running MythTV, I've never felt the need
to move my storage directories around. I've frequently had to use
mythtv-setup edit my storage groups to add directories as I've added
additional drives. This is not something that symbolic links would make
any easier. As a matter of fact that it would be harder because
creating the additional links would just be an extra step.

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michael at thewatsonfamily

Apr 21, 2012, 4:05 PM

Post #49 of 74 (2197 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On 22/04/2012 8:37 AM, Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
>
>
> Looks like I should just ignore this user list from now on...
>
Please dont, your input and knowledge is very important and useful, and
much appreciated, as is that of many others.
We need to stick to facts, not personnel agenda's or attacks. (leave
that for facebook)


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ron at ronfrazier

Apr 21, 2012, 4:12 PM

Post #50 of 74 (2199 views)
Permalink
Re: Disk Space Way Wrong [In reply to]

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard [at] gmail> wrote:

> No one has taken personal shots...

From your earlier message:

> I see.. you're like Jesus, spreading the good word to whomever wants
> to listen, but don't write anything :)
>
> Your wisdom is so much appreciated.. Thanks again for showing people
> "how to use Linux correctly". I'm sure that thanks to you MythTV has
> progressed tremendously today, and probably all other days as well


Even if there was no Jesus/Lord link intended, that's still a personal
attack. Or are you trying to say there was no sarcasm intended there,
and you meant every word you said?

And yes, others did make personal attacks too:

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Gavin Hurlbut <gjhurlbu [at] gmail> wrote:
> This is idiotic.
...
> and then waste everyone's time by
> trying to pretend that you are better than everyone else, and that
> putting in proper bug reports is beneath you.



> Looks like I should just ignore this user list from now on...

Why, are you unable to participate while remaining civil? I'm not
asking anyone to kiss anyone's ass or anything, but there's no need
for the sort of comments I quoted above, especially when Mark really
didn't do anything to provoke it.

--
Ron Frazier
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