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THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review)

 

 

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gjhurlbu at gmail

Apr 17, 2012, 7:31 PM

Post #51 of 96 (1565 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Christopher Kerr <mythtv [at] theseekerr> wrote:
> I'm not going to invest that time if nobody is listening. If a developer
> steps forward and says "I'm looking to improve commercial detection, can
> users who experience poor flagging submit logs and samples", I'll give you a
> flood. If a developer steps forward (as happened a year or two back) and

I asked for that months ago. So far I have had exactly one person
actually send me samples... in fact the very person you were
responding to.

So I'll say it again. One of my ongoing projects within mythtv is a
complete overhaul of commflagging. If we want it to work for anything
but just the north american market (except by dumb luck), I will need
examples. To be exact, full, unedited recordings with a variety of
commercial cutovers (if there's more than one), and a variety of
actual content style. The bigger sample set I have for testing, the
better I can make things work. I need ones that fail miserably now,
and ones that work now... a sampling of what needs to be dealt with.

The best way to do this is with an SD card or the like (of around 16GB
or larger so we can get a few recordings on there). I can provide my
mailing address to any takers, and if needed, I can ship it back once
I've copied the files off.
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pieter at insync

Apr 17, 2012, 7:43 PM

Post #52 of 96 (1560 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Gavin Hurlbut wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Christopher Kerr <mythtv [at] theseekerr> wrote:
>> I'm not going to invest that time if nobody is listening. If a developer
>> steps forward and says "I'm looking to improve commercial detection, can
>> users who experience poor flagging submit logs and samples", I'll give you a
>> flood. If a developer steps forward (as happened a year or two back) and
>
> I asked for that months ago. So far I have had exactly one person
> actually send me samples... in fact the very person you were
> responding to.
>
> So I'll say it again. One of my ongoing projects within mythtv is a
> complete overhaul of commflagging. If we want it to work for anything
> but just the north american market (except by dumb luck), I will need
> examples. To be exact, full, unedited recordings with a variety of
> commercial cutovers (if there's more than one), and a variety of
> actual content style. The bigger sample set I have for testing, the
> better I can make things work. I need ones that fail miserably now,
> and ones that work now... a sampling of what needs to be dealt with.
>
> The best way to do this is with an SD card or the like (of around 16GB
> or larger so we can get a few recordings on there). I can provide my
> mailing address to any takers, and if needed, I can ship it back once
> I've copied the files off.
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

Hi,

It's not a big thing in my life, since the remote is right there, but
commflagging doesn't work that well in New Zealand either. I will glady
supply samples. Can we talk offlist about a method of getting them to you
?

Cheers,

Pieter
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gjhurlbu at gmail

Apr 17, 2012, 7:45 PM

Post #53 of 96 (1563 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Pieter De Wit <pieter [at] insync> wrote:
> It's not a big thing in my life, since the remote is right there, but
> commflagging doesn't work that well in New Zealand either. I will glady
> supply samples. Can we talk offlist about a method of getting them to you ?

Sure thing. Same goes for anyone else who can provide useful samples
from elsewhere. I'd be happy to talk off list. You all have my email
:)
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michael at thewatsonfamily

Apr 17, 2012, 10:39 PM

Post #54 of 96 (1556 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On 18/04/2012 12:43 PM, Pieter De Wit wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Gavin Hurlbut wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Christopher Kerr
>> <mythtv [at] theseekerr> wrote:
>>> I'm not going to invest that time if nobody is listening. If a
>>> developer
>>> steps forward and says "I'm looking to improve commercial detection,
>>> can
>>> users who experience poor flagging submit logs and samples", I'll
>>> give you a
>>> flood. If a developer steps forward (as happened a year or two back)
>>> and
>>
>> I asked for that months ago. So far I have had exactly one person
>> actually send me samples... in fact the very person you were
>> responding to.
>>
>> So I'll say it again. One of my ongoing projects within mythtv is a
>> complete overhaul of commflagging. If we want it to work for anything
>> but just the north american market (except by dumb luck), I will need
>> examples. To be exact, full, unedited recordings with a variety of
>> commercial cutovers (if there's more than one), and a variety of
>> actual content style. The bigger sample set I have for testing, the
>> better I can make things work. I need ones that fail miserably now,
>> and ones that work now... a sampling of what needs to be dealt with.
>>
>> The best way to do this is with an SD card or the like (of around 16GB
>> or larger so we can get a few recordings on there). I can provide my
>> mailing address to any takers, and if needed, I can ship it back once
>> I've copied the files off.
>> _______________________________________________
>> mythtv-users mailing list
>> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
>> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> It's not a big thing in my life, since the remote is right there, but
> commflagging doesn't work that well in New Zealand either. I will
> glady supply samples. Can we talk offlist about a method of getting
> them to you ?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pieter

Not a big issue for me either. But very willing to supply examples for
you from Australia. USB Memory Stick OK?
Send me an email off list, if you would like me to send you details, (or
I am happy to setup an FTP site for you to download them from)

Michael

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linux at thehobsons

Apr 18, 2012, 12:08 AM

Post #55 of 96 (1552 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

Mark Lord wrote:

>An intelligent human would also realize that the iOS app that was
>being discussed is "commercial" only in that the author is trying
>to recover some of his costs by charging a tiny pittance for it.
>
>That's hardly "commercial" to an "intelligent human."
>It's more "non profit" than "commercial".
>
>The potential benefits to mythtv-users from the app far outweigh
>any possibility that he might recover half his direct costs,
>let alone any fraction of his time costs.

That's how it came across to me.

And just to be clear, the unfortunate reality of dealing with the
legacy of "Saint Jobs" (as some people (not me) seem to think of him)
is :
1) The program could not be released under GPL if he wanted to, GPL
is fundamentally incompatible with the closed crippleware used on
iphone OS stuff. The alternative would be to release it via Cydia (or
similar) which then severely restricts your user base.
2) It costs real cash to be able to do this. Not a lot, and yes I
realise that other developers have to buy their machines etc, but
here there is an explicit cash expenditure to a third party before
they'll allow your application in the store (even if you give it away
free). If I remember the costs correctly, he'll need to sell 30 to 40
copies before he'll have covered that cost.


--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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jam at tigger

Apr 18, 2012, 2:31 AM

Post #56 of 96 (1543 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On 18/04/2012, at 4:51 PM, mythtv-users-request [at] mythtv wrote:

>> It's not a big thing in my life, since the remote is right there, but
>> commflagging doesn't work that well in New Zealand either. I will
>> glady supply samples. Can we talk offlist about a method of getting
>> them to you ?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Pieter
>
> Not a big issue for me either. But very willing to supply examples for
> you from Australia. USB Memory Stick OK?
> Send me an email off list, if you would like me to send you details, (or
> I am happy to setup an FTP site for you to download them from)

And just to add comment: (for Australia)

Various stations CHANGE their commercial presentation over the course of a show
eg
Channel 7: Blank Frame preamble then next time Movie:frame:Commercial:frame etc
The only SURE thing seems to be LOGO/NO_LOGO and volume up 10dB or so during a commercial.

James
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philledwards at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 3:02 AM

Post #57 of 96 (1548 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

> Various stations CHANGE their commercial presentation over the course of a show
> eg
> Channel 7: Blank Frame preamble then next time Movie:frame:Commercial:frame etc
> The only SURE thing seems to be LOGO/NO_LOGO and volume up 10dB or so during a commercial.

Yes, volume increase always accompanies the ads. Extremely annoying.
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pieter at insync

Apr 18, 2012, 3:07 AM

Post #58 of 96 (1550 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On 18/04/2012 22:02, Phill Edwards wrote:
>> Various stations CHANGE their commercial presentation over the course of a show
>> eg
>> Channel 7: Blank Frame preamble then next time Movie:frame:Commercial:frame etc
>> The only SURE thing seems to be LOGO/NO_LOGO and volume up 10dB or so during a commercial.
> Yes, volume increase always accompanies the ads. Extremely annoying.
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Can we ask for auto mute ? :D

Cheers,

Pieter
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jyavenard at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 3:43 AM

Post #59 of 96 (1547 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On 18 April 2012 19:31, James Linder <jam [at] tigger> wrote:

> Channel 7: Blank Frame preamble then next time Movie:frame:Commercial:frame etc
> The only SURE thing seems to be LOGO/NO_LOGO and volume up 10dB or so during a commercial.

You'll find that they do not increase the volume whatsoever.
They are using sound compression, in lame term, packing much more
content, giving the feeling that it's louder.

but dB wise, it stays constant... there are rules for this
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ron at ronfrazier

Apr 18, 2012, 6:10 AM

Post #60 of 96 (1535 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Zarthan South <zarthan [at] gmail> wrote:
> I am a forum moderator for a large commercial software vendor and constantly
> need to warn vendors about blatant advertising of their products. If it was
> truly a violation and not a "bad blood" retaliation it should have been
> handled differently. I never do it publicly, but send them a PM and lock or
> remove the thread. The contents of this thread would never have been allowed
> to go on. A PM to Robert should have asked him to stop and post his apology
> for disrupting the the posted rules for the mailing list. The results here
> have done nothing but disappoint participants and tarnish this amazing
> product.

That may work for an internet forum, but it doesn't work so well for a
mailing list. This list is just a series of emails. There's no thread
to lock. Anyone can send a message with any subject they want. The
list software probably doesn't provide any means for filtering based
on subject line (which would be very error prone). There's no way to
delete the thread either, short of hacking into every subscribers
email account. Now, it's possible someone could clean up the archives
that are kept on the gossamer-threads website, but that's not the live
mailing list.

--
Ron Frazier
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dbadia at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 6:18 AM

Post #61 of 96 (1530 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Apr 17, 2012 10:31 PM, "Gavin Hurlbut" <gjhurlbu [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Christopher Kerr <mythtv [at] theseekerr>
wrote:
> > I'm not going to invest that time if nobody is listening. If a developer
> > steps forward and says "I'm looking to improve commercial detection, can
> > users who experience poor flagging submit logs and samples", I'll give
you a
> > flood. If a developer steps forward (as happened a year or two back) and
>
> I asked for that months ago. So far I have had exactly one person
> actually send me samples... in fact the very person you were
> responding to.
>
> So I'll say it again. One of my ongoing projects within mythtv is a
> complete overhaul of commflagging. If we want it to work for anything
> but just the north american market (except by dumb luck), I will need
> examples. To be exact, full, unedited recordings with a variety of
> commercial cutovers (if there's more than one), and a variety of
> actual content style. The bigger sample set I have for testing, the
> better I can make things work. I need ones that fail miserably now,
> and ones that work now... a sampling of what needs to be dealt with.
>
> The best way to do this is with an SD card or the like (of around 16GB
> or larger so we can get a few recordings on there). I can provide my
> mailing address to any takers, and if needed, I can ship it back once
> I've copied the files off.
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Are samples from .24 useful or do they have to be from .25?

Dave


jyavenard at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 6:25 AM

Post #62 of 96 (1523 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On 18 April 2012 23:18, Dave Badia <dbadia [at] gmail> wrote:
> Are samples from .24 useful or do they have to be from .25?

it doesn't matter.
the recording would be identical between the two.
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rhpot1991 at ubuntu

Apr 18, 2012, 7:09 AM

Post #63 of 96 (1523 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Simon Hobson <linux [at] thehobsons> wrote:
>
> That's how it came across to me.
>
> And just to be clear, the unfortunate reality of dealing with the legacy of
> "Saint Jobs" (as some people (not me) seem to think of him) is :
> 1) The program could not be released under GPL if he wanted to, GPL is
> fundamentally incompatible with the closed crippleware used on iphone OS
> stuff. The alternative would be to release it via Cydia (or similar) which
> then severely restricts your user base.
> 2) It costs real cash to be able to do this. Not a lot, and yes I realise
> that other developers have to buy their machines etc, but here there is an
> explicit cash expenditure to a third party before they'll allow your
> application in the store (even if you give it away free). If I remember the
> costs correctly, he'll need to sell 30 to 40 copies before he'll have
> covered that cost.
>

If only there was another platform choice, where you can GPL your
code, and don't have to pay an extortion fee to run your own code on
your own hardware...
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jyavenard at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 7:18 AM

Post #64 of 96 (1524 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

On 19 April 2012 00:09, John Baab <rhpot1991 [at] ubuntu> wrote:
> If only there was another platform choice, where you can GPL your
> code, and don't have to pay an extortion fee to run your own code on
> your own hardware...

No one prevent you to make the source code of the application GPL and
distribute the application source code to whomever requests it...

It's technically against the GPL to publish it on the App Store, but
there are plenty of applications that way..
That an application is closed source is uniquely due to the author's
decision ; no need to blame a distribution medium such as the
AppStore.

As for recouping the development cost, I'm all for it.. there are
other way to do so, such as asking for donations.

Actually, in my experience in project like MythTV and otherwise
targeting a rather small enthusiastic community. You'll end up
receiving much more than you would selling an app for $3.
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eric at lisaneric

Apr 18, 2012, 7:26 AM

Post #65 of 96 (1520 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Christopher Kerr
<mythtv [at] theseekerr> wrote:
> OK, allow me to be clear. I'm a full time engineering student who works
> part-time to make ends meet. For 30 weeks of the year I have, essentially,
> no free time at all, and this will continue to be the case for another 2
> years.

I hate to break it to you, but it's not going to get any easier when
you're no longer a student. Doubly so if you decide to add "Dad" to
your resume.

If you're going to roll up your sleeves and help, there's no time like
the present.

> But as it is, dozens of such comments are made on this list every week, and
> never have I seen a developer pop in to say "Oh, hey, there does seem to be
> a lot of users concerned about this, I'll give it some of my time".

That's not primarily how open source works. It's more of a "I'm
concerned about this, I'll give it some of my time." type thing.


I would like to see more developers being able to spend more time to
work on Open Source. Lacking time bubble technology that may mean
needing to find some way to bring money in so that working on open
source can be a full time occupation. With developers like Robert
McNamara wanting roofs and such (probably food too) we see him
choosing to use a traditional closed source model for the iOS app,
which I understand but find unfortunate. I'd rather see the
development funded more like the way public broadcasting is funded
here in the US, but for some reason no one has tried to attempt this
on a significant scale.

Eric
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gary.buhrmaster at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 8:56 AM

Post #66 of 96 (1515 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 07:09, John Baab <rhpot1991 [at] ubuntu> wrote:
...
> If only there was another platform choice, where you can GPL your
> code, and don't have to pay an extortion fee to run your own code on
> your own hardware...

I believe no one should dispute that an individual can choose
to write for the 2nd place platform (in terms of volume), nor
that an individual can choose to charge for their work product.
Just as with licenses, when one chooses a platform, certain
realities (and restrictions) come with it. While I do not own
an iDevice, I am sure that there are many who will find this
app desirable, and be willing to pay the fee. I am sure most
are aware that there are some others that claim GPL itself
is an extortion fee. No one is forced to choose a particular
platform, nor a particular license, nor choose a particular
price (or even to charge for their work at all). It is the
authors choice. I support the authors right to make such
decisions, even if I might choose another way.

Gary
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gary.buhrmaster at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 8:59 AM

Post #67 of 96 (1517 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 07:18, Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard [at] gmail> wrote:
.....
> It's technically against the GPL to publish it on the App Store, but
> there are plenty of applications that way..

I have not followed the App Store offerings, and I am sure
there are the "hidden exceptions", but I remember a number
of "reports" that GPL'd apps in the App Store were being
removed as they were identified. Is that not still true?

Gary
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jan at horde

Apr 18, 2012, 9:07 AM

Post #68 of 96 (1511 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

Hi Gavin,

Zitat von Gavin Hurlbut <gjhurlbu [at] gmail>:

> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Christopher Kerr
> <mythtv [at] theseekerr> wrote:
>> I'm not going to invest that time if nobody is listening. If a developer
>> steps forward and says "I'm looking to improve commercial detection, can
>> users who experience poor flagging submit logs and samples", I'll give you a
>> flood. If a developer steps forward (as happened a year or two back) and
>
> I asked for that months ago. So far I have had exactly one person
> actually send me samples... in fact the very person you were
> responding to.
>
> So I'll say it again. One of my ongoing projects within mythtv is a
> complete overhaul of commflagging. If we want it to work for anything
> but just the north american market (except by dumb luck), I will need
> examples. To be exact, full, unedited recordings with a variety of
> commercial cutovers (if there's more than one), and a variety of
> actual content style. The bigger sample set I have for testing, the
> better I can make things work. I need ones that fail miserably now,
> and ones that work now... a sampling of what needs to be dealt with.
>
> The best way to do this is with an SD card or the like (of around 16GB
> or larger so we can get a few recordings on there). I can provide my
> mailing address to any takers, and if needed, I can ship it back once
> I've copied the files off.

Would you prefer recordings of complete shows, to test the complete
commflagging algorithm, or are short snippets of program-to-commercial
and commercial-to-program transitions sufficient, to only test
detection of those?
And where would you like to get the cards sent?

I could contribute some German recordings. Commercials *are* usually
detected here, but are always a few seconds up to one minute off.

--
Jan Schneider
The Horde Project
http://www.horde.org/


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linux at thehobsons

Apr 18, 2012, 9:25 AM

Post #69 of 96 (1502 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

At 08:59 -0700 18/4/12, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 07:18, Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard [at] gmail> wrote:
>.....
> > It's technically against the GPL to publish it on the App Store, but
>> there are plenty of applications that way..
>
>I have not followed the App Store offerings, and I am sure
>there are the "hidden exceptions", but I remember a number
>of "reports" that GPL'd apps in the App Store were being
>removed as they were identified. Is that not still true?

Yes, that has happened. If Apple spot that a program is under GPL
then it will be pulled<period>.

And it's not "technically against the GPL", it is absolutely in
breach of the GPL. The author of an App for an iDevice is not able to
provide the source used to build the Apple as distributed. They can
provide the source to what they submit, but what is actually
distributed is different (Apple add the crippleware), and only Apple
can provide the source for the steps they apply (and I suspect Satan
will be trying out ice skating before they do that.)

Whatever we might think of that, it's how it is and isn't likely to
change soon.

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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john.baab at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 9:37 AM

Post #70 of 96 (1512 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

>
> I have not followed the App Store offerings, and I am sure
> there are the "hidden exceptions", but I remember a number
> of "reports" that GPL'd apps in the App Store were being
> removed as they were identified.  Is that not still true?
>

VLC is a good example of this.
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ctreleaven at cogeco

Apr 18, 2012, 11:28 AM

Post #71 of 96 (1504 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

At 5:25 PM +0100 4/18/12, Simon Hobson wrote:
>At 08:59 -0700 18/4/12, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
>>On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 07:18, Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard [at] gmail> wrote:
>>.....
>> > It's technically against the GPL to publish it on the App Store, but
>>> there are plenty of applications that way..
>>
>>I have not followed the App Store offerings, and I am sure
>>there are the "hidden exceptions", but I remember a number
>>of "reports" that GPL'd apps in the App Store were being
>>removed as they were identified. Is that not still true?
>
>Yes, that has happened. If Apple spot that a program is under GPL
>then it will be pulled<period>.
>
>And it's not "technically against the GPL", it is absolutely in
>breach of the GPL. The author of an App for an iDevice is not able
>to provide the source used to build the Apple as distributed. They
>can provide the source to what they submit, but what is actually
>distributed is different (Apple add the crippleware), and only Apple
>can provide the source for the steps they apply (and I suspect Satan
>will be trying out ice skating before they do that.)
>
>Whatever we might think of that, it's how it is and isn't likely to
>change soon.

What "cripplware"? Apps are digitally signed for security in the Mac
App Store.

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Security/Conceptual/CodeSigningGuide/Introduction/Introduction.html

IANAL so I won't try to decipher whether Apples Terms of Service
conflict with GPL.

Craig
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linux at thehobsons

Apr 18, 2012, 12:01 PM

Post #72 of 96 (1513 views)
Permalink
Re: OT Apple vs GPL (Was: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST) [In reply to]

Craig Treleaven wrote:

>What "cripplware"? Apps are digitally signed for security in the
>Mac App Store.

Yes, that's what they tell you it's for - but frankly that's only the
official line Apple use to make people "want" to be handcuffed. The
real reason is simple - if they don't make it a closed system, they
can't control it fully. Not having full control means they can't
exclude competition* and make as much money**. Sorry if I sound like
Richard Stallman, but his description of "Digital Handcuffs" is very
apt.

* Certain areas are forbidden - advertising not using the Apple
supplied processes (for which Apple get a cut of the advertising
take) is just one of them. Others include the ability to download and
run anything (eg software to run under a games console emulator), or
the ability to take money other than going through Apple.
** In-app purchases are forbidden, as is the use of purchases made
elsewhere (eg the vendors web site), as is even mentioning in-app
that alternative purchasing methods are available - and finally,
anything you do sell, you cannot charge less elsewhere (which I
thought was illegal in the UK, but hey, this is Apple after all).
This isn't just about the money - it's also about separating end
users from the vendors. So take for example the case of a newspaper
using advertising to subsidise the content. When the end user
subscribes to their service in-app, it now goes through Apple who
know about the customer (and can now target the advertising at them,
as well as having taken their cut), but the paper no longer even
knows who the customer is (meaning that while they can still
advertise, they cannot target it and so the advertising is less
valuable). Whatever you think about such techniques, it's hard to see
this as anything but bad for both the end user and the vendor.

Personally it affects me as certain programs I'd like to use are
barred from Apple's official store - so I've had to jailbreak the
device to get it to do what I want to do with it. Network diagnostics
tools for work if you really want to know.

So yes, I think crippleware is a valid description of something which
is not optional and is designed primarily to prevent end users making
free choices as to how they use their purchased equipment.

>IANAL so I won't try to decipher whether Apples Terms of Service
>conflict with GPL.

It does, fundamentally. If you distribute a binary of a GPLed work,
you are *required* to also make available the source that can be used
to make that binary. Since Apple add an extra layer to the binary
(the encryption/signing) which cannot be replicated without the
algorithm and private key(s) used by Apple, then that cannot be
complied with while also complying with Apple's policies.

Also, you are expressly forbidden from imposing any restrictions on
what the recipient may do with the program/whatever other than those
limitations imposed by the GPL (the bits to prevent someone taking
your program and claiming it as theirs, or trying to restrict what
someone may do with it). Since anything coming from Apple's App store
comes with restrictive licences imposed by Apple (notably, even for
free Apps, you cannot copy them and give away further copies), then
that too is incompatible with the GPL.

This cannot change unless Apple restrict their policies (they would
need to allow unsigned application on the iDevices - and I cannot see
that happening in the forseeable future.

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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gjhurlbu at gmail

Apr 18, 2012, 12:13 PM

Post #73 of 96 (1503 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Eric Sharkey <eric [at] lisaneric> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Christopher Kerr
> <mythtv [at] theseekerr> wrote:
>> But as it is, dozens of such comments are made on this list every week, and
>> never have I seen a developer pop in to say "Oh, hey, there does seem to be
>> a lot of users concerned about this, I'll give it some of my time".
>
> That's not primarily how open source works.  It's more of a "I'm
> concerned about this, I'll give it some of my time." type thing.

Not to mention that a large number of developers don't have the time
to follow the noise in this list. :)

> I would like to see more developers being able to spend more time to
> work on Open Source.  Lacking time bubble technology that may mean
> needing to find some way to bring money in so that working on open
> source can be a full time occupation.  With developers like Robert
> McNamara wanting roofs and such (probably food too) we see him
> choosing to use a traditional closed source model for the iOS app,
> which I understand but find unfortunate.  I'd rather see the
> development funded more like the way public broadcasting is funded
> here in the US, but for some reason no one has tried to attempt this
> on a significant scale.

What, you want a pledge week, with annoying ads on your frontend
before playback? :)

I dare say you'd be hard-pressed to find a developer on this project
who hasn't sunk a lot of personal finances into the development
effort. We don't do it for the money. While it would be nice to
recoup costs, I believe the real reason Robert chose closed-source for
that app was because Apple will not allow GPL apps, and thus he had no
choice. At that point, trying to recoup some of the investment (which
he should have no problems at all doing) sounds reasonable.

Anyways...
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eric at lisaneric

Apr 18, 2012, 2:22 PM

Post #74 of 96 (1482 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Gavin Hurlbut <gjhurlbu [at] gmail> wrote:
>> I'd rather see the
>> development funded more like the way public broadcasting is funded
>> here in the US, but for some reason no one has tried to attempt this
>> on a significant scale.
>
> What, you want a pledge week, with annoying ads on your frontend
> before playback? :)

Perhaps. Perhaps something less intrusive/annoying would work as
well. If there was some sort of pop-up menu in the front-end that
appears twice per year, which could be dismissed for six months with a
simple click of the "I choose not to financially support the MythTV
project." button, no one would bother to write a patch to remove it.
Or maybe just someplace on mythtv.org where I can order a $75 tote bag
or $125 coffee mug.

> I dare say you'd be hard-pressed to find a developer on this project
> who hasn't sunk a lot of personal finances into the development
> effort.  We don't do it for the money.

I understand that completely. On the other hand, you need to eat,
too. The money isn't for you to do MythTV development. The money is
to enable you to quit your day job so that you can do more of it.

At least, that's how I see it. The devil is in the details, of
course. No one wants a repeat of the "Debian Dunc-tank" controversy.

Eric
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jedi at mishnet

Apr 18, 2012, 2:36 PM

Post #75 of 96 (1486 views)
Permalink
Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST [In reply to]

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 02:28:17PM -0400, Craig Treleaven wrote:
> At 5:25 PM +0100 4/18/12, Simon Hobson wrote:
> >At 08:59 -0700 18/4/12, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> >>On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 07:18, Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard [at] gmail> wrote:
> >>.....
> >> > It's technically against the GPL to publish it on the App Store, but
> >>> there are plenty of applications that way..
> >>
> >>I have not followed the App Store offerings, and I am sure
> >>there are the "hidden exceptions", but I remember a number
> >>of "reports" that GPL'd apps in the App Store were being
> >>removed as they were identified. Is that not still true?
> >
> >Yes, that has happened. If Apple spot that a program is under GPL
> >then it will be pulled<period>.
> >
> >And it's not "technically against the GPL", it is absolutely in
> >breach of the GPL. The author of an App for an iDevice is not able
> >to provide the source used to build the Apple as distributed. They
> >can provide the source to what they submit, but what is actually
> >distributed is different (Apple add the crippleware), and only
> >Apple can provide the source for the steps they apply (and I
> >suspect Satan will be trying out ice skating before they do that.)
> >
> >Whatever we might think of that, it's how it is and isn't likely
> >to change soon.
>
> What "cripplware"? Apps are digitally signed for security in the

If you had a PC that you couldn't install your own software on,
you would consider it crippled. Pretending that you are giving the
rubes a false sense of security simply doesn't require reducing
capabilities for power users.

[deletia]
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