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THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review)

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cpinkham at bc2va

Apr 16, 2012, 2:32 PM

Post #1 of 96 (1043 views)
Permalink

THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review)

This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.

Please continue this discussion elsewhere.

* On Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 11:37:55PM +0000, Robert McNamara wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am rejoining the list for the near future to keep you apprised of
> the status of Torc for iOS, a mobile frontend compatible with MythTV
> 0.25 and Torc. Something I've been keeping under my hat until just
> now is that Torc for iOS will also support iPhone and iPod Touch
> devices. Please see the following video for a demo of the iPod/iPhone
> experience:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGoU90bdUC8
>
> In other news, I whittled my TODO list for the application down to
> nothing today, so I have submitted it for app store review. I also
> did fairly extensive testing of the app with a cellular/mobile
> connection over the past few days, and with adequate upstream and
> backend CPU grunt, the experience is absolutely fantastic. The
> average review time for Apple is currently right around 5-7 business
> days. I hope that around this time a week from now, I will be able to
> announce that the application is available for purchase. Because the
> MythTV/Torc streaming implementation has never been tested against the
> app store review process, a lot remains up in the air. Apple has very
> specific requirements when it comes to streaming behaviors, and
> hopefully I am not too far off the mark.
>
> In the end, I settled on what Apple calls "Tier 4" pricing, which is
> essentially $3.99 USD. I am a strong believer in open source, but I
> am an equally strong believer in keeping a roof over my head. :) For
> further details on why I decided to charge a nominal price for the
> app, and to read quite a lot about what you can do to make sure your
> backends and frontends are ready for use with the application, please
> see the following:
>
> http://www.fecitfacta.com/blog1/torc/
>
> Note that this application has no official relationship with the Torc
> open source project, which is continuing quite nicely. Since this is
> a MythTV list, I won't discuss that here.
>
> I am happy to field any questions, comments, or concerns you might
> have about this application, and I hope that those of you with iOS
> devices of all shapes and sizes will consider trying it out when it
> becomes available.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Robert McNamara
> Developer, Torc
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

--
Chris
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users [at] mythtv
http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

nick.rout at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 2:36 PM

Post #2 of 96 (1030 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Chris Pinkham <cpinkham [at] bc2va> wrote:
> This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
> and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
> commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.
>
> Please continue this discussion elsewhere.

Oh come off it Chris, this is of high interest to many people. If that
is the case please make sure you never discuss schedules direct, which
charges.

I suspect your reaction has more to do with personal issues, which
have less relevance to the list, and less place on it, than Robert's
posting.

PS I have also seen suggestions to use plex on android for accessing
mythtv, plex is a paid app on android, I didn't see you leap all over
that.

>
> * On Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 11:37:55PM +0000, Robert McNamara wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am rejoining the list for the near future to keep you apprised of
>> the status of Torc for iOS, a mobile frontend compatible with MythTV
>> 0.25 and Torc. Something I've been keeping under my hat until just
>> now is that Torc for iOS will also support iPhone and iPod Touch
>> devices. Please see the following video for a demo of the iPod/iPhone
>> experience:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGoU90bdUC8
>>
>> In other news, I whittled my TODO list for the application down to
>> nothing today, so I have submitted it for app store review. I also
>> did fairly extensive testing of the app with a cellular/mobile
>> connection over the past few days, and with adequate upstream and
>> backend CPU grunt, the experience is absolutely fantastic. The
>> average review time for Apple is currently right around 5-7 business
>> days. I hope that around this time a week from now, I will be able to
>> announce that the application is available for purchase. Because the
>> MythTV/Torc streaming implementation has never been tested against the
>> app store review process, a lot remains up in the air. Apple has very
>> specific requirements when it comes to streaming behaviors, and
>> hopefully I am not too far off the mark.
>>
>> In the end, I settled on what Apple calls "Tier 4" pricing, which is
>> essentially $3.99 USD. I am a strong believer in open source, but I
>> am an equally strong believer in keeping a roof over my head. :) For
>> further details on why I decided to charge a nominal price for the
>> app, and to read quite a lot about what you can do to make sure your
>> backends and frontends are ready for use with the application, please
>> see the following:
>>
>> http://www.fecitfacta.com/blog1/torc/
>>
>> Note that this application has no official relationship with the Torc
>> open source project, which is continuing quite nicely. Since this is
>> a MythTV list, I won't discuss that here.
>>
>> I am happy to field any questions, comments, or concerns you might
>> have about this application, and I hope that those of you with iOS
>> devices of all shapes and sizes will consider trying it out when it
>> becomes available.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Robert McNamara
>> Developer, Torc
>> _______________________________________________
>> mythtv-users mailing list
>> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
>> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
> --
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users [at] mythtv
http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

robert.mcnamara at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 2:36 PM

Post #3 of 96 (1031 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Chris Pinkham <cpinkham [at] bc2va> wrote:
> This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
> and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
> commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.
>
> Please continue this discussion elsewhere.
>

Sure. I'm sorry you feel this isn't germane to MythTV. I am happy to
respect your wishes and keep it off of your lists. They are, of
course, your infrastructure and therefore I am happy to abide by your
rules. I hope that those with an interest in this kind of product
will seek another forum, and are welcome to contact me privately or
through my site. For the record, I am enormously appreciative of the
work Chris did in adding HLS streaming to MythTV, and to David Blain
before him to writing the Service API infrastructure. I hope that I
have done my part in adding the many APIs required to make the iOS app
possible, such as recording scheduling, video library manipulation,
artwork support, and many, many others.

#mythtv:

[21:14:47] Captain_Murdoch: just to doublecheck.... does anyone object
to me sending an email to the -users list regarding the "Torc for iOS"
thread that basically is an advertisement and support thread for
Robert's commercial iOS app that he is charging for?
[21:16:20] Captain_Murdoch: if he can get his 70% of $3.99 per user
then he can pay to support them and advertise in his own forum
somewhere.
[21:23:15] Beirdo: Fine by me
[21:24:08] stuarta: perhaps we could negotiate a 50% cut for providing
all his infrastructure?
[21:24:14] Captain_Murdoch: and if anyone is interested, yes, I'm a
little annoyed that if it weren't for HLS support that I wrote, that
his app would be just a glorified remote control.
[21:25:03] stuarta: that would royally piss me off
[21:25:25] gigem: Captain_Murdoch: fine with me too.
[21:25:47] Beirdo: yeah, we put in a lot of debugging effort to make
crap work... for him to profit off.
[21:26:04] gigem: stuarta: i hate it when the crickets start chirping.
it makes it diffcult to sleep. :)
[21:30:26] Beirdo: for me, usually it's the birds at like 5am :)
[21:32:25] Captain_Murdoch: initial comment will be short and to the
point... "This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using
MythTV and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not. Please
continue this discussion elsewhere." with a subject line change to
prepend "THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST" so it stands out.
[21:33:21] Captain_Murdoch: and that has nothing to do with my opinion
of him. if it were Hauppauge or Ceton or NVidia or ATI in here
advertising, I'd say the same thing.
[21:34:26] Beirdo: yeah, good point

All the best,

Robert
_______________________________________________
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mythtv-users [at] mythtv
http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

gbr at majentis

Apr 16, 2012, 2:38 PM

Post #4 of 96 (1027 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

Seriously? I mean, SERIOUSLY?

----- Original Message -----
> This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
> and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
> commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.
>
> Please continue this discussion elsewhere.
>
> * On Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 11:37:55PM +0000, Robert McNamara wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I am rejoining the list for the near future to keep you apprised of
> > the status of Torc for iOS, a mobile frontend compatible with
> > MythTV
> > 0.25 and Torc. Something I've been keeping under my hat until just
> > now is that Torc for iOS will also support iPhone and iPod Touch
> > devices. Please see the following video for a demo of the
> > iPod/iPhone
> > experience:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGoU90bdUC8
> >
> > In other news, I whittled my TODO list for the application down to
> > nothing today, so I have submitted it for app store review. I also
> > did fairly extensive testing of the app with a cellular/mobile
> > connection over the past few days, and with adequate upstream and
> > backend CPU grunt, the experience is absolutely fantastic. The
> > average review time for Apple is currently right around 5-7
> > business
> > days. I hope that around this time a week from now, I will be able
> > to
> > announce that the application is available for purchase. Because
> > the
> > MythTV/Torc streaming implementation has never been tested against
> > the
> > app store review process, a lot remains up in the air. Apple has
> > very
> > specific requirements when it comes to streaming behaviors, and
> > hopefully I am not too far off the mark.
> >
> > In the end, I settled on what Apple calls "Tier 4" pricing, which
> > is
> > essentially $3.99 USD. I am a strong believer in open source, but
> > I
> > am an equally strong believer in keeping a roof over my head. :)
> > For
> > further details on why I decided to charge a nominal price for the
> > app, and to read quite a lot about what you can do to make sure
> > your
> > backends and frontends are ready for use with the application,
> > please
> > see the following:
> >
> > http://www.fecitfacta.com/blog1/torc/
> >
> > Note that this application has no official relationship with the
> > Torc
> > open source project, which is continuing quite nicely. Since this
> > is
> > a MythTV list, I won't discuss that here.
> >
> > I am happy to field any questions, comments, or concerns you might
> > have about this application, and I hope that those of you with iOS
> > devices of all shapes and sizes will consider trying it out when it
> > becomes available.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Robert McNamara
> > Developer, Torc
> > _______________________________________________
> > mythtv-users mailing list
> > mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> > http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
> --
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users [at] mythtv
http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

eric at lisaneric

Apr 16, 2012, 2:41 PM

Post #5 of 96 (1032 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Chris Pinkham <cpinkham [at] bc2va> wrote:
>> This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
>> and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
>> commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.
>>
>> Please continue this discussion elsewhere.
>
>
> Oh come off it Chris,

Well said Nick.

This list routinely covers third party commercial products of all
kinds that relate to MythTV, and this is one. Robert has bent over
backwards with the intent to avoid a flamewar, but you seem to be
trying to deliberately start one.

Eric
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users [at] mythtv
http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

cpinkham at bc2va

Apr 16, 2012, 2:44 PM

Post #6 of 96 (1027 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

* On Tue Apr 17, 2012 at 09:36:35AM +1200, Nick Rout wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Chris Pinkham <cpinkham [at] bc2va> wrote:
> > This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
> > and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
> > commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.
> >
> > Please continue this discussion elsewhere.
>
>
> Oh come off it Chris, this is of high interest to many people. If that
> is the case please make sure you never discuss schedules direct, which
> charges.

Schedules Direct doesn't come into the -users list for support. SD has
its own forums. SD is also a non-profit. If Hauppauge or Ceton or
NVidia or ATI or Intel or anyone else came in here advertising or
using this as a support channel for their commercial products, we'd
say the same thing to them.

> I suspect your reaction has more to do with personal issues, which
> have less relevance to the list, and less place on it, than Robert's
> posting.

If I let my personal issues be part of my reaction then that would have
been a lot longer email. I was the one to send the email, but I ran it
by several other developers before sending due to the situation.

> PS I have also seen suggestions to use plex on android for accessing
> mythtv, plex is a paid app on android, I didn't see you leap all over
> that.

OK, thanks for the reminder. Next time I see the creator(s) of Plex on
one of our MythTV mailing lists promoting their product, I'll remember to
do the same thing. I didn't call out Torc for iOS specifically, this
rule applies to any commercial entity. Suggestions from one user to
another user recommending a product is not the same as the product
vendor (and yes, Robert is a vendor in this case) coming in and
advertising a product.

--
Chris Pinkham
_______________________________________________
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users [at] mythtv
http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

nospam at netrom

Apr 16, 2012, 3:00 PM

Post #7 of 96 (1029 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Chris Pinkham <cpinkham [at] bc2va> wrote:

> OK, thanks for the reminder. Next time I see the creator(s) of Plex on
> one of our MythTV mailing lists promoting their product, I'll remember to
> do the same thing. I didn't call out Torc for iOS specifically, this
> rule applies to any commercial entity. Suggestions from one user to
> another user recommending a product is not the same as the product
> vendor (and yes, Robert is a vendor in this case) coming in and
> advertising a product.
>
> --
> Chris Pinkham
> _______________________________________________
>

No need to clarify Chris. The rules are very clear and it always amazes me
how some people feel their personal gain is for the benefit of everyone
else but them self.

SPAM is SPAM is SPAM, take it elsewhere.

linux at thehobsons

Apr 16, 2012, 3:37 PM

Post #8 of 96 (1031 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

Chris Pinkham wrote:

> > Oh come off it Chris, this is of high interest to many people. If that
>> is the case please make sure you never discuss schedules direct, which
>> charges.
>
>Schedules Direct doesn't come into the -users list for support. SD has
>its own forums. SD is also a non-profit. If Hauppauge or Ceton or
>NVidia or ATI or Intel or anyone else came in here advertising or
>using this as a support channel for their commercial products, we'd
>say the same thing to them.

I think I'm inclined to side with Nick on this one. Fundamentally
this app has one function - to make the experience of using MythTV
and Torc on an iPad great. As I've read the thread, he's not been
here pushing it (apart from an announcement that it was happening and
that it's been submitted) - rather that he's been answering genuine
questions from MYTHTV USERS about using something WITH MYTHTV. Ie,
apart from a couple of short posts (and at the time of most of them,
I don't think this was commercial), the bulk of his posts have been
in response to questions from MythTV users.

Now, if someone from (say) Ceton or Silicon Dust were on this list,
and answered questions about using their product with MythTV, would
you really tell then to sod off ? Or would you actually be thinking
"great, a manufacturer prepared to help MythTV users ?". I'm on quite
few mailing lists for a variety of subjects, and I don't think any of
them would SHOUT SUCH A MESSAGE AT A VENDOR OFFERING ADVICE IN SUCH A
MANNER - did you *really* need to use all caps in your subject ?

And if we're being pedantic, then look at the wording : "...
advertisement or support of any commercial products, whether they be
MythTV related or not"

So no discussion of support of cable services, satellite services,
commercial streaming services, commercial listing services, tuner
cards, remote controls, hard disks, video cards, TVs, the list goes
on. Doesn't exactly leave a lot to discuss !
Just for good measure, discussion of hooking up a
satellite/cable/whatever box via analogue to a capture card breaches
the DMCA - but it's discussed openly. The use of CableCards is
discussed openly, but discussion of CAM/CI is forbidden even where it
is perfectly legal (yes I do understand where that comes from, but
still ...)
So there does seem to be a lot of "selective application of rules"
when deciding what is and isn't permissible.

You may have a point and consider Robert to be promoting his app. You
could have been polite about requesting it to stop - your shouted
demand (what else is a block of all caps ?) was not a polite request.

Lastly, I really have to wonder if you would have acted the same had
the Torc project never forked off - ie this app was purely MythTV
related.

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
_______________________________________________
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gjhurlbu at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 3:59 PM

Post #9 of 96 (1027 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Simon Hobson <linux [at] thehobsons> wrote:
> And if we're being pedantic, then look at the wording : "... advertisement
> or support of any commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or
> not"
>
> So no discussion of support of cable services, satellite services,
> commercial streaming services, commercial listing services, tuner cards,
> remote controls, hard disks, video cards, TVs, the list goes on. Doesn't
> exactly leave a lot to discuss !

If I see a cable company advertising in here, I'd be saying the same
thing. This list isn't for commercial use, it is for user support
discussions for MythTV.

> Just for good measure, discussion of hooking up a satellite/cable/whatever
> box via analogue to a capture card breaches the DMCA - but it's discussed
> openly. The use of CableCards is discussed openly, but discussion of CAM/CI
> is forbidden even where it is perfectly legal (yes I do understand where
> that comes from, but still ...)

Recording from analog is not a breach of the DMCA in any way I have
ever heard. That's perfectly legitimate use of the signal they
provide. The use of CAM/CI is not forbidden. Discussion of misusing,
sharing, bypassing CAM/CI is forbidden. You are not correct here :)

Anyways. Robert was well aware of the policy in this list (as he used
to help enforce it). If people want to make this into more than it is
(a restatement of long-standing policy), well... They are missing the
point.

MythTV is an open-source project, run completely by people who
volunteer their spare time (and loads of it, I might add) to produce
what is pretty much a commercial-quality product. Yes, we have a ways
to go in some areas, but that's life. This list is provided for the
support of *this* project. Any non-official MythTV projects that are
*non-commercial* have been mostly tolerated here, even though they
technically are off-topic. We draw the line at commercial ventures
advertising in our lists. We also have drawn the line (long ago) at
people advertising to sell their personal PC or MythTV-related parts
(like tuners) on this list.

The rule is *NO* commercial activity on our lists.

If you as a user want to point other users to a useful product (or the
like), that falls in the grey area of "user support". You are not the
vendor. As a vendor, if you posted "hey, I have this new related
product. If you are interested, contact me off-list", that might even
be acceptable... or the like. Neither of those cases are what
happened here.

Granted, we are all suffering from raw nerves at this point.
_______________________________________________
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jyavenard at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 4:07 PM

Post #10 of 96 (1027 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tuesday, 17 April 2012, Chris Pinkham wrote:

> This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
> and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
> commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.
>
> Please continue this discussion elsewhere.
>
>
I thought this was really uncalled for. If it wasn't for Robert, you
wouldn't have said anything.

I'm no fan of Robert, that's a known fact within the devs, but credit is
due when due. if it wasn't for Robert that backend API wouldn't exist as it
does today.

There have been plenty of discussions related to using commercial products
with mythtv: remote, cable cards, VoD (paid services), applications
(Android comes to mind). I never saw such strong position before.

The only thing I thought was misplaced from Robert was his discussion
specifically about Torc project, where it's heading etc.

For a start, he's not the one who first posted about the iPad app and he
has abstained from talking about its progress earlier. He effectively only
responded to direct question.

If the app was still called MythTV companion like it was originally
intended, would you have posted so? I do t think so.
The name sucks, but what the app does remain the same: it's a great
addition to mythtv and make 0.25 a release worth upgrading to because of it.

Still can't believe I feel like I have to defend Robert in a public place!

sicrb25 at bigpond

Apr 16, 2012, 5:06 PM

Post #11 of 96 (1015 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

If it wasn't sent here, I wouldn't have seen it. It looks awesome and makes mythtv awesome-er. Get over it.

-rF

On 17/04/2012, at 8:37 AM, Simon Hobson wrote:

> Chris Pinkham wrote:
>
>> > Oh come off it Chris, this is of high interest to many people. If that
>>> is the case please make sure you never discuss schedules direct, which
>>> charges.
>>
>> Schedules Direct doesn't come into the -users list for support. SD has
>> its own forums. SD is also a non-profit. If Hauppauge or Ceton or
>> NVidia or ATI or Intel or anyone else came in here advertising or
>> using this as a support channel for their commercial products, we'd
>> say the same thing to them.
>
> I think I'm inclined to side with Nick on this one. Fundamentally this app has one function - to make the experience of using MythTV and Torc on an iPad great. As I've read the thread, he's not been here pushing it (apart from an announcement that it was happening and that it's been submitted) - rather that he's been answering genuine questions from MYTHTV USERS about using something WITH MYTHTV. Ie, apart from a couple of short posts (and at the time of most of them, I don't think this was commercial), the bulk of his posts have been in response to questions from MythTV users.
>
> Now, if someone from (say) Ceton or Silicon Dust were on this list, and answered questions about using their product with MythTV, would you really tell then to sod off ? Or would you actually be thinking "great, a manufacturer prepared to help MythTV users ?". I'm on quite few mailing lists for a variety of subjects, and I don't think any of them would SHOUT SUCH A MESSAGE AT A VENDOR OFFERING ADVICE IN SUCH A MANNER - did you *really* need to use all caps in your subject ?
>
>
> And if we're being pedantic, then look at the wording : "... advertisement or support of any commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not"
>
> So no discussion of support of cable services, satellite services, commercial streaming services, commercial listing services, tuner cards, remote controls, hard disks, video cards, TVs, the list goes on. Doesn't exactly leave a lot to discuss !
> Just for good measure, discussion of hooking up a satellite/cable/whatever box via analogue to a capture card breaches the DMCA - but it's discussed openly. The use of CableCards is discussed openly, but discussion of CAM/CI is forbidden even where it is perfectly legal (yes I do understand where that comes from, but still ...)
> So there does seem to be a lot of "selective application of rules" when deciding what is and isn't permissible.
>
> You may have a point and consider Robert to be promoting his app. You could have been polite about requesting it to stop - your shouted demand (what else is a block of all caps ?) was not a polite request.
>
>
> Lastly, I really have to wonder if you would have acted the same had the Torc project never forked off - ie this app was purely MythTV related.
>
> --
> Simon Hobson
>
> Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
> author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
> Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

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jyavenard at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 5:33 PM

Post #12 of 96 (1011 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

Don't top-post

On 17 April 2012 10:06, Richard Ferrara <sicrb25 [at] bigpond> wrote:
> If it wasn't sent here, I wouldn't have seen it. It looks awesome and makes mythtv awesome-er. Get over it.

For the record, Chris Pinkham is one of the dev who wrote the most
crucial part on mythtv backend that allows what Torc for iOS does
(streaming recordings/videos from the backend).
So his frustration on this matter can be well understood IMHO.
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mythtv at rtr

Apr 16, 2012, 5:35 PM

Post #13 of 96 (1011 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On 12-04-16 08:33 PM, Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> Don't top-post
>
> On 17 April 2012 10:06, Richard Ferrara <sicrb25 [at] bigpond> wrote:
>> If it wasn't sent here, I wouldn't have seen it. It looks awesome and makes mythtv awesome-er. Get over it.
>
> For the record, Chris Pinkham is one of the dev who wrote the most
> crucial part on mythtv backend that allows what Torc for iOS does
> (streaming recordings/videos from the backend).
> So his frustration on this matter can be well understood IMHO.

Open-Source.

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jyavenard at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 5:56 PM

Post #14 of 96 (1016 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On 17 April 2012 10:35, Mark Lord <mythtv [at] rtr> wrote:
> Open-Source.

You write code for a specific application (MythTV) someone uses it for
another project, then advertise the commercial use, non-free (as-in it
doesn't cost $0) of a closed-source one and start advertising the
features on the original open-source project.

We're all humans, if open source means you can't be annoyed that
someone is making money of your work, you're deluded.

There is no Torc backend (nor a frontend) for the time being, it's
mythtv renamed. plain and simple. That will obviously change in the
future, but as of today it's not

Anyhow, that's all I will say about this from now on.
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sicrb25 at bigpond

Apr 16, 2012, 6:05 PM

Post #15 of 96 (1012 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

If you are happy to write code for free, then do exactly that and be exactly that.

-rF

On 17/04/2012, at 10:56 AM, Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:

> You write code for a specific application (MythTV) someone uses it for
> another project, then advertise the commercial use, non-free (as-in it
> doesn't cost $0) of a closed-source one and start advertising the
> features on the original open-source project.
>
> We're all humans, if open source means you can't be annoyed that
> someone is making money of your work, you're deluded.
>
> There is no Torc backend (nor a frontend) for the time being, it's
> mythtv renamed. plain and simple. That will obviously change in the
> future, but as of today it's not
>
> Anyhow, that's all I will say about this from now on.

gary.buhrmaster at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 6:08 PM

Post #16 of 96 (1014 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 23:07, Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard [at] gmail> wrote:
....

> There have been plenty of discussions related to
> using commercial products with mythtv: remote,
> cable cards, VoD (paid services), applications
> (Android comes to mind). I never saw such strong
> position before.

And I have never seen a (commercial) vendor
post to the list before. Now, it is possible that
some of the posts came from shills. But this
one clearly differed.

> For a start, he's not the one who first posted about the iPad app

Correct. And that original post was appropriate as any other
"Hey, I hear that there is this new awesome [iPad|Android] app...",
which provides good user to user information.

> and he has
> abstained from talking about its progress earlier. He effectively only
> responded to direct question.

Again correct. Until his (new) posting titled "Torc for iOS",
which was not all that different from the first SPAM (aka UCE)
message (on ARPAnet) from a DEC salesperson (I wish I
had saved a copy of that message; admittedly it was a
forward, but still it would have been nice to have kept it).

> The name sucks, but what the app does remain the
> same: it's a great addition to mythtv and make 0.25
> a release worth upgrading to because of it.

No one disputes that it looks like a good app for
those in the Apple tent. "A rose by any other name
would smell as sweet". It was the clear advertising
clause that cross that (Mythical?) line for me (and
apparently some others). And while I can clearly
"plonk" the entire thread, that does not make it a
good posting.

> Still can't believe I feel like I have to defend Robert in a public place!

And while my opinion may not matter, I will defend Chris.

Gary
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ylee at pobox

Apr 16, 2012, 6:15 PM

Post #17 of 96 (1012 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard [at] gmail> says:
> There have been plenty of discussions related to using commercial
> products with mythtv: remote, cable cards, VoD (paid services),
> applications (Android comes to mind). I never saw such strong
> position before.

Yes, but we list members don't make and sell those products and
services. As Chris stated in the IRC log Robert quoted, if "Hauppauge
or Ceton or NVidia or ATI" was on the list advertising its products
people would rightly complain. (SchedulesDirect is a nonprofit, and
its revenue directly benefits the MythTV project, but even it has its
own forum for non MythTV-related issues like erroneous program
listings.)

When Gavin Hurlbut last year solicited interest in that little HD-PVR
power-cycling gadget, he almost immediately took further discussion
off the list and created another for it. (I bought one.) I doubt the
developers would have objected to Robert similarly making a one-time
announcement that pointed those interested in more information to a
Torc Website or mailing list or forum. Instead, he stated:

> I am rejoining the list for the near future to keep you apprised of
> the status of Torc for iOS, a mobile frontend compatible with MythTV
> 0.25 and Torc.

. . . and the thread proceeded from there. That's a problem.

--
MythTV FAQ Q: "Cheap frontend/backend?" A: Revo, $200-300 @ Newegg
Q: "Record HD cable/satellite?" A: Hauppauge HD-PVR, $200 @ Newegg
Q: "Can't change Live TV channels w/multirec!" A: Hit NEXTCARD key
More answers @ <URL:http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/>
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gary.buhrmaster at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 6:27 PM

Post #18 of 96 (992 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 00:33, Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard [at] gmail> wrote:
.....

> So his frustration on this matter can be well understood IMHO.

Actually, no, it can not be. There can be a lot of
conjecture about the frustration(*), but there has
been little or no public postings to establish the
facts from which we can make a judgement. That
the various core contributors to the project have
had conflicts is not unusual (I am not aware of any
larger project that does not have some conflicts).
But until those issues/conflicts are aired, we can
not understand, we can only conjecture. Please
consider sharing those issues/conflicts, or stop
obliquely referring to them.

Gary

(*) I can conjecture with the best of them.
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michael at thewatsonfamily

Apr 16, 2012, 6:28 PM

Post #19 of 96 (993 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On 17/04/2012 7:32 AM, Chris Pinkham wrote:
> This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
> and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
> commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.
>
> Please continue this discussion elsewhere.
>
I guess attitudes like this, is one of the reasons the Torc fork exists.

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nick.rout at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 6:43 PM

Post #20 of 96 (999 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Chris Pinkham <cpinkham [at] bc2va> wrote:
> * On Tue Apr 17, 2012 at 09:36:35AM +1200, Nick Rout wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Chris Pinkham <cpinkham [at] bc2va> wrote:
>> > This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
>> > and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
>> > commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.
>> >
>> > Please continue this discussion elsewhere.
>>
>>
>> Oh come off it Chris, this is of high interest to many people. If that
>> is the case please make sure you never discuss schedules direct, which
>> charges.
>
> Schedules Direct doesn't come into the -users list for support. SD has
> its own forums. SD is also a non-profit. If Hauppauge or Ceton or
> NVidia or ATI or Intel or anyone else came in here advertising or
> using this as a support channel for their commercial products, we'd
> say the same thing to them.

OK so if someone else came on the list and said "hey Robert has
submitted a great app to the apple store and because he has to cover
some costs its gonna be $3.99, Here is his web page for info, and
he'll answer any questions for you" that would be OK - It must be
because we see third parties freely posting about bargains on newegg
every week, and announcing new versions of hdhomeruns, and ceton this
and so on. However if silicon dust announced a new product that might
benefit myth users, that wouldn't be?

In short I see Robert's post more as announcement that advertisement.
He didn't offer to support it on this list, although he could perhaps
have made it clear he wanted questions off list.

>
>> I suspect your reaction has more to do with personal issues, which
>> have less relevance to the list, and less place on it, than Robert's
>> posting.
>
> If I let my personal issues be part of my reaction then that would have
> been a lot longer email. I was the one to send the email, but I ran it
> by several other developers before sending due to the situation.
>
>> PS I have also seen suggestions to use plex on android for accessing
>> mythtv, plex is a paid app on android, I didn't see you leap all over
>> that.
>
> OK, thanks for the reminder. Next time I see the creator(s) of Plex on
> one of our MythTV mailing lists promoting their product, I'll remember to
> do the same thing. I didn't call out Torc for iOS specifically, this
> rule applies to any commercial entity. Suggestions from one user to
> another user recommending a product is not the same as the product
> vendor (and yes, Robert is a vendor in this case) coming in and
> advertising a product.
>
> --
> Chris Pinkham
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david.scott.day at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 6:45 PM

Post #21 of 96 (995 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Michael Watson wrote:

> On 17/04/2012 7:32 AM, Chris Pinkham wrote:
> > This mailing list is for the support of MythTV users using MythTV
> > and is not to be used for advertisement or support of any
> > commercial products, whether they be MythTV related or not.
> >
> > Please continue this discussion elsewhere.
> >
> I guess attitudes like this, is one of the reasons the Torc fork exists.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Well said.
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gary.buhrmaster at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 6:47 PM

Post #22 of 96 (997 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 00:56, Jean-Yves Avenard <jyavenard [at] gmail> wrote:
.....
> We're all humans, if open source means you can't be annoyed that
> someone is making money of your work, you're deluded.

I wonder if the Apache developers are annoyed that there
are companies making billions of dollars from supporting
LAMP?

If someone making money off ones work annoys one,
perhaps one should consider another license for ones
next project. And anyone who contributes code under
a specific license should be well aware of the implications
of that code being leveraged under those license terms.

> Anyhow, that's all I will say about this from now on.

And again, if the core team care to have "the rest of us"
understand, they need to share more, or we shall continue
useless conjecture.

Gary
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gbr at majentis

Apr 16, 2012, 6:48 PM

Post #23 of 96 (998 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

----- Original Message -----
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Chris Pinkham <cpinkham [at] bc2va>
> wrote:

>
> In short I see Robert's post more as announcement that advertisement.
> He didn't offer to support it on this list, although he could perhaps
> have made it clear he wanted questions off list.
>

I think that sums it up nicely.

Gerald
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sicrb25 at bigpond

Apr 16, 2012, 6:52 PM

Post #24 of 96 (996 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

Exactly.... If you are happy to write code for free, then do exactly that and be exactly that.

-rF

On 17/04/2012, at 11:47 AM, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:

> If someone making money off ones work annoys one,
> perhaps one should consider another license for ones
> next project. And anyone who contributes code under
> a specific license should be well aware of the implications
> of that code being leveraged under those license terms.

gary.buhrmaster at gmail

Apr 16, 2012, 7:01 PM

Post #25 of 96 (994 views)
Permalink

Re: THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL MAILING LIST (WAS: Re: Torc for iOS - Application Submitted to the App Store for Review) [In reply to]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 01:43, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
....
> OK so if someone else came on the list and said "hey Robert has
> submitted a great app to the apple store and because he has to cover
> some costs its gonna be $3.99, Here is his web page for info, and
> he'll answer any questions for you" that would be OK

And the *original* post was (approximately) that. I think most
thought it OK.

> In short I see Robert's post more as announcement that advertisement.

Yes, it is sometimes a very fine line that we wish vendors to
not cross (between announcement and advertisement). If
the post was a few liner with a reference for more information,
I believe the responses would have been much more muted.
That it was multiple paragraphs, followed by discussions
regarding capabilities by the vendor is what, in my opinion,
moved it across that line. You clearly come down on the
other side. We can agree to disagree.

Gary
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