Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Users

MythTV and 3D ?

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linuxguy123 at gmail

Oct 16, 2011, 12:21 PM

Post #1 of 20 (662 views)
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MythTV and 3D ?

Does Myth do anything to 3D content that will prevent it from being
played (properly) on a 3D capable display device ?

Does Myth require any specialized hardware in order to play 3D content
? I'm reading HDMI 1.3 doesn't support it... why is that ?

Thanks !
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sijones2010 at gmail

Oct 16, 2011, 1:54 PM

Post #2 of 20 (654 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

> Does Myth require any specialized hardware in order to play 3D content
> ? 狢'm reading HDMI 1.3 doesn't support it... why is that ?

3D wasn't included in the 1.3 spec, it's a hardware spec for the HDMI
port, has nothing to do with Myth.

You will need a graphics card that supports the 1.4 spec, so a newish
Nvidia card, and then the tv to support it, I believe the 2 picture
are fed side by side and then you tell the tv it's 3D.

I think it's the refresh that is higher for 3D and that's why it
changed from 1.3
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mythtv.lists at burns

Oct 16, 2011, 2:06 PM

Post #3 of 20 (655 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On 16 October 2011 21:54, Simon Jones <sijones2010 [at] gmail> wrote:

> 3D wasn't included in the 1.3 spec, it's a hardware spec for the HDMI
> port, has nothing to do with Myth.
>
> You will need a graphics card that supports the 1.4 spec, so a newish
> Nvidia card, and then the tv to support it, I believe the 2 picture
> are fed side by side and then you tell the tv it's 3D.
>
> I think it's the refresh that is higher for 3D and that's why it
> changed from 1.3

The newer HDMI would be needed for full frame 3D, but in the UK I
think 3D is transmitted as side-by-side (i.e. reduced horizontal
resolution) but at the same refresh rate, so nothing special would be
required ither than a 3D TV, I don't know where the O/P is located
though ...
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seven at seven

Oct 16, 2011, 3:34 PM

Post #4 of 20 (650 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On 17 October 2011 07:06, Andy Burns <mythtv.lists [at] burns> wrote:

> On 16 October 2011 21:54, Simon Jones <sijones2010 [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> > 3D wasn't included in the 1.3 spec, it's a hardware spec for the HDMI
> > port, has nothing to do with Myth.
> >
> > You will need a graphics card that supports the 1.4 spec, so a newish
> > Nvidia card, and then the tv to support it, I believe the 2 picture
> > are fed side by side and then you tell the tv it's 3D.
> >
> > I think it's the refresh that is higher for 3D and that's why it
> > changed from 1.3
>
> The newer HDMI would be needed for full frame 3D, but in the UK I
> think 3D is transmitted as side-by-side (i.e. reduced horizontal
> resolution) but at the same refresh rate, so nothing special would be
> required ither than a 3D TV, I don't know where the O/P is located
> though ...
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

Side by side 3D content plays fine in mythtv, however it would be nice to
have a 3D theme as any onscreen display and menus etc are completely
unusable but I would assume there would be alot of backend code that would
be needed to support this?

unless there is a video driver option to turn on 3D?

Cheers,

Anthony

nick.rout at gmail

Oct 16, 2011, 6:03 PM

Post #5 of 20 (645 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Anthony Giggins
<seven [at] seven> wrote:
>
>
> On 17 October 2011 07:06, Andy Burns <mythtv.lists [at] burns> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 October 2011 21:54, Simon Jones <sijones2010 [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>> > 3D wasn't included in the 1.3 spec, it's a hardware spec for the HDMI
>> > port, has nothing to do with Myth.
>> >
>> > You will need a graphics card that supports the 1.4 spec, so a newish
>> > Nvidia card, and then the tv to support it, I believe the 2 picture
>> > are fed side by side and then you tell the tv it's 3D.
>> >
>> > I think it's the refresh that is higher for 3D and that's why it
>> > changed from 1.3
>>
>> The newer HDMI would be needed for full frame 3D, but in the UK I
>> think 3D is transmitted as side-by-side (i.e. reduced horizontal
>> resolution) but at the same refresh rate, so nothing special would be
>> required ither than a 3D TV, I don't know where the O/P is located
>> though ...
>> _______________________________________________
>> mythtv-users mailing list
>> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
>> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
> Side by side 3D content plays fine in mythtv, however it would be nice to
> have a 3D theme as any onscreen display and menus etc are completely
> unusable but I would assume there would be alot of backend code that would
> be needed to support this?
>
> unless there is a video driver option to turn on 3D?

I have a revo (ion1) that runs side by side 3D to my LG latest
generation TV and it works just fine. In fact my wife thought the 3d
on Avatar was better at home than the cinema, but that might be
because you are allowed to drink wine at home.

In fact any video card that will do 1080p should play a side by side
file just fine. Each frame is just a left and right eye view. The TV
does all the processing, and in the case of LG even lets you use the
cinema glases (=cheap).

However side-by-side is not generally waht you find on, eg, a Bluray.
for that I imagine you need to transcode to a side by side, or have
more specialised software or hardware, or both.
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blammo.doh at gmail

Jan 26, 2012, 2:23 PM

Post #6 of 20 (452 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 6:03 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
> I have a revo (ion1) that runs side by side 3D to my LG latest
> generation TV and it works just fine. In fact my wife thought the 3d
> on Avatar was better at home than the cinema, but that might be
> because you are allowed to drink wine at home.
>
> In fact any video card that will do 1080p should play a side by side
> file just fine. Each frame is just a left and right eye view. The TV
> does all the processing, and in the case of LG even lets you use the
> cinema glases (=cheap).
>
> However side-by-side is not generally waht you find on, eg, a Bluray.
> for that I imagine you need to transcode to a side by side, or have
> more specialised software or hardware, or both.

Coming from other formats (including YouTube) there's a decent amount
of Side-by-Side (sbs) 3D content, but you're right, the BluRay titles
are coming "FullHD" or Alternate Frame.

I'm hoping that 3d awareness/support is planned for MythFrontend at
some point, not just for correct playback, but making sure that things
like the OSD are placed properly.
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mark.kendall at gmail

Jan 26, 2012, 2:45 PM

Post #7 of 20 (452 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On 26 January 2012 22:23, Blammo <blammo.doh [at] gmail> wrote:
> I'm hoping that 3d awareness/support is planned for MythFrontend at
> some point, not just for correct playback, but making sure that things
> like the OSD are placed properly.

I'm hoping to get some basic auto-detection of side-by-side and
top-and-bottom into 0.25 - but few streams seem to actually implement
the fairly new standards.

Other than that, you should probably take a look at:-

https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/18976c4b137aeeb264e2857ddc4851eef530024e

regards

Mark
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mikep at randomtraveller

Jan 27, 2012, 2:24 AM

Post #8 of 20 (441 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On 26/01/12 22:45, Mark Kendall wrote:
> On 26 January 2012 22:23, Blammo<blammo.doh [at] gmail> wrote:
>> I'm hoping that 3d awareness/support is planned for MythFrontend at
>> some point, not just for correct playback, but making sure that things
>> like the OSD are placed properly.
>
> I'm hoping to get some basic auto-detection of side-by-side and
> top-and-bottom into 0.25 - but few streams seem to actually implement
> the fairly new standards.
>
> Other than that, you should probably take a look at:-
>
> https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/18976c4b137aeeb264e2857ddc4851eef530024e
>
As a matter of interest, what happens for those of us who either don't have or
don't want 3D TV? There will probably be occasions in the future when all that's
transmitted for a particular program is a 3D option. How will this be displayed
in 2D? Alternate frames? I can't see it being possible to blend the viewpoints.

--

Mike Perkins

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dbadia at gmail

Jan 27, 2012, 2:43 AM

Post #9 of 20 (441 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Mike Perkins
<mikep [at] randomtraveller> wrote:
> As a matter of interest, what happens for those of us who either don't have or
> don't want 3D TV? There will probably be occasions in the future when all that's
> transmitted for a particular program is a 3D option. How will this be displayed
> in 2D? Alternate frames? I can't see it being possible to blend the viewpoints.
>

I expect the display would show all of the left or right fames (in the
side by side example) and ignore the other half. The viewpoints are
taken by cameras a few inches apart so which is chosen probably
doesn't matter.

Marks patch mentions this as well:
"user can then select to discard one stereo field (right or top) for
non-3D capable TV sets"

Dave
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phipps-hutton at sky

Jan 27, 2012, 2:46 AM

Post #10 of 20 (440 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

Quoting Mike Perkins <mikep [at] randomtraveller>:
> As a matter of interest, what happens for those of us who either
> don't have or
> don't want 3D TV? There will probably be occasions in the future
> when all that's
> transmitted for a particular program is a 3D option. How will this
> be displayed
> in 2D? Alternate frames? I can't see it being possible to blend the
> viewpoints.

Don't worry, it's never going to happen. The current '3D' is just
stereoscopic imaging. You have to sit with your eyes horizontal in
order to watch it which is not the preferred position of the majority
of viewers (10% of children watch TV upside down). Also you cannot
look at different depths because they stay out of focus unlike reality
which is always better focused than your eyes, trying to look at
things the cameras are not focused on is what gives you headaches.

To be acceptable 3D TV has to be something like holographic and will
require lots (hundreds) of cameras (or CGI).

Cheers,
Tim.

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linux at thehobsons

Jan 27, 2012, 2:47 AM

Post #11 of 20 (441 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

Mike Perkins wrote:

>As a matter of interest, what happens for those of us who either don't have or
>don't want 3D TV? There will probably be occasions in the future
>when all that's
>transmitted for a particular program is a 3D option. How will this
>be displayed
>in 2D? Alternate frames? I can't see it being possible to blend the
>viewpoints.

You may find these blog entries useful/interesting.
http://gonedigital.net/tag/3d/

Seems the BBC have been asking themselves exactly that question - how
to offer 3d without p***ing off anyone without 3d equipment. The
latest trick they've experimented with was to transmit a side-by-side
split screen and use the MHEG scaling options to stretch one half up
to full screen for 2d viewers. Previously they've done simulcasts -
eg 3d on BBC HD, and 2d on BBC One (SD) and BBC One HD.

I can't help thinking a better way (as already suggested in this
thread) would be to transmit a full HD image plus a separate stream
with difference information. 2d equipment could just ignore the
difference stream (and we could configure our equipment to not store
it), while 3d equipment could process it. Sounds sensible, but I
guess the encoding requirements could be quite significant.

Problem is, the standards are now effectively "set in stone" by what
is already in people's living rooms - so it seems a bit a**e about
t*t to be still working these questions out :-/

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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linux at thehobsons

Jan 27, 2012, 4:10 AM

Post #12 of 20 (440 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

phipps-hutton [at] sky wrote:

>The current '3D' is just
>stereoscopic imaging. You have to sit with your eyes horizontal in
>order to watch it which is not the preferred position of the majority
>of viewers (10% of children watch TV upside down). Also you cannot
>look at different depths because they stay out of focus unlike reality
>which is always better focused than your eyes, trying to look at
>things the cameras are not focused on is what gives you headaches.

Exactly, and the number of times I've seen people argue that it *IS* 3d

As you say, unless you only look at what the director decided should
be your object of interest, then the convergence and/or focus is all
wrong. So none of that "ignore the boring dialog and look at the
scenery in the background" thank you very much. I think the "making
other stuff fuzzy" isn't so much to re-inforce the 3d effect, but to
avoid you trying to look at "stuff you shouldn't".

And as for some of the weird s**t (like a Sony logo hanging in mid
air a few rows forward) in the pre-film stuff (talking about the
cinema here), well quite frankly that sort of "abuse" was almost
enough to make me walk out.

Done well and with subtlety, I think it works; trouble is, I've seen
several films now in 3d and most were a masterpiece in how not to do
it. Put it this way, I won't be buying a 3d TV in the foreseeable
future - and what's more, I don't want my 2d experience screwing over
(eg by halving the resolution) because of it.

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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krisbee at krisbee

Jan 27, 2012, 4:35 AM

Post #13 of 20 (433 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Simon Hobson wrote:

> Done well and with subtlety, I think it works; trouble is, I've seen
> several films now in 3d and most were a masterpiece in how not to do
> it. Put it this way, I won't be buying a 3d TV in the foreseeable
> future - and what's more, I don't want my 2d experience screwing over
> (eg by halving the resolution) because of it.

For the most part, unless it is a spectacle, we actually go out of our
way to bypass the 3D version. Most theaters don't compensate for you
wearing dark glasses by increasing the projector illumination, so things
are just much darker. When we saw Tron:Legacy at an IMAX theater, we
were AMAZED at how good everything looked, and it was precisely because
of the better projection methods, not to mention some scenes were filmed
in IMAX.

Most of the time, it doesn't add anything. Adding 3D to 2D movies is
kinda stupid, and I don't think it works very well (having said that, I
still will probably check out one of the Star Wars reissues when they
get to the two good ones).

And having said that, the one place where it does add is live sports.
That is the only time I think that 3d might enhance the experience.

But I don't expect 3d to be on OTA anytime soon. cable/Satellite OTOH,
I do expect it very soon (next five years).

--
Kris B.
krisbee [at] krisbee
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watkinshome at gmail

Jan 27, 2012, 4:49 AM

Post #14 of 20 (433 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

> But I don't expect 3d to be on OTA anytime soon. 蠏able/Satellite OTOH,
> I do expect it very soon (next five years).

As Simon mentioned earlier in the thread, the UK are already
experimenting with OTA 3D broadcasts via DVB-T.

Over Christmas we unintentionally recorded a film (Streetdance I
think) on our Myth system which was broadcast in side-by-side 3D.

I didn't find any way of playing it back in anything other than
side-by-side view but one of my children mananged to watch it like
that. I suspect that after a few minutes the brain manages to ignore
one of the images. I wouldn't recommend it though.
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linux at thehobsons

Jan 27, 2012, 5:03 AM

Post #15 of 20 (433 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

Kris B. wrote:

>And having said that, the one place where it does add is live sports.
>That is the only time I think that 3d might enhance the experience.

I'd need convincing of that. It may work for some sports where
there's a very clear point of interest - such as following a single
ball around. But for many sports I can't see how it could work.
Take snooker for example*. You've got a nice shot of a player lining
up, with the camera looking over the pocket. Your focus is going to
shift between the pocket, the object ball, the cue ball, the player's
face - but "3d" can only deal with one focus.
Similarly, in many race type events, while some people will be
watching the leader, others will be watching their favourite who
could be at the back of the field.

>But I don't expect 3d to be on OTA anytime soon. cable/Satellite OTOH,
>I do expect it very soon (next five years).

Well it's already appeared on UK OTA - although only in trials so far.

* I think snooker could end up like watching my grans TV many years
ago. She lived in Matlock, in the Derwent valley, and I think the
best signal they could get was refracted over the hill and bounced
off the cliffs the other side of the river. So multiple reflections,
possibly some pickup of the non-reflected signal on the back of the
aerial, and the result was severe ghosting. Interesting watching
snooker with about 6 sets of balls on the table !

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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linux at thehobsons

Jan 27, 2012, 5:07 AM

Post #16 of 20 (433 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

David Watkins wrote:

>Over Christmas we unintentionally recorded a film (Streetdance I
>think) on our Myth system which was broadcast in side-by-side 3D.
>
>I didn't find any way of playing it back in anything other than
>side-by-side view but one of my children mananged to watch it like
>that. I suspect that after a few minutes the brain manages to ignore
>one of the images. I wouldn't recommend it though.

I had wondered if you could "force" your brain to adjust by using two
cardboard tubes to restrict each eye to it's half of the picture. The
convergence would be way out, but the brain is apparently quite
capable of adapting - hence some of the experiments with people
wearing "upside-down" goggles long term.

You'd still get "matchstick" people though - like the days when
they'd shrink widescreen films into normal 4:3 so you could see all
the titles and credits.

You could always put a sheet of cardboard over half of the screen !
--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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krisbee at krisbee

Jan 27, 2012, 5:20 AM

Post #17 of 20 (433 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012, at 12:49 PM, David Watkins wrote:

> I didn't find any way of playing it back in anything other than
> side-by-side view but one of my children mananged to watch it like
> that. I suspect that after a few minutes the brain manages to ignore
> one of the images. I wouldn't recommend it though.

If you cross your eyes, you can combine the two images into one in the
middle and it is 3d. I do this with side by side pictures and some of
the side by side on youtube. Anything longer than a few minutes and I
start getting a headache.

I forgot that the UK was experimenting with that, but I figured it would
only by on sky, so there goes what I know being here in the US. :)

--
Kris B.
krisbee [at] krisbee

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J.Pilk at tesco

Jan 27, 2012, 6:19 AM

Post #18 of 20 (433 views)
Permalink

Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

On 27/01/12 13:03, Simon Hobson wrote:

>
> * I think snooker could end up like watching my grans TV many years
> ago. She lived in Matlock, in the Derwent valley, and I think the
> best signal they could get was refracted over the hill and bounced
> off the cliffs the other side of the river. So multiple reflections,
> possibly some pickup of the non-reflected signal on the back of the
> aerial, and the result was severe ghosting. Interesting watching
> snooker with about 6 sets of balls on the table !
>

You perhaps needed the helpful clarification once offered on the BBC:
'For those of you watching in black and white, the yellow is the ball
just to the left of the pink' - where the colours and direction
unlikely to be authentic.

John P
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linux at thehobsons

Jan 27, 2012, 6:44 AM

Post #19 of 20 (424 views)
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Re: Snooker bloopers (Was: MythTV and 3D ?) [In reply to]

John Pilkington wrote:

> > * I think snooker could end up like watching my grans TV many years
>> ago. She lived in Matlock, in the Derwent valley, and I think the
>> best signal they could get was refracted over the hill and bounced
>> off the cliffs the other side of the river. So multiple reflections,
>> possibly some pickup of the non-reflected signal on the back of the
>> aerial, and the result was severe ghosting. Interesting watching
>> snooker with about 6 sets of balls on the table !
>>
>
>You perhaps needed the helpful clarification once offered on the BBC:
>'For those of you watching in black and white, the yellow is the ball
>just to the left of the pink' - where the colours and direction
>unlikely to be authentic.

Ahh, the wonderful Ted Lowe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Lowe
>"and for those of you who are watching in black and white, the pink
>is next to the green."

And I remember the other one given there :
He once told viewers that Fred Davis, struggling to rest one leg on
the edge of the table in order to reach a long shot, "is getting on a
bit and is having trouble getting his leg over"

Still, for proper innuendo you want Cricket
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Johnston#Incidents_and_gaffes

--
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
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neilcoo at yahoo

Feb 2, 2012, 12:45 PM

Post #20 of 20 (354 views)
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Re: MythTV and 3D ? [In reply to]

--- On Fri, 1/27/12, phipps-hutton [at] sky <phipps-hutton [at] sky> wrote:

> From: phipps-hutton [at] sky <phipps-hutton [at] sky>
> Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] MythTV and 3D ?
> To: mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> Date: Friday, January 27, 2012, 3:46 AM
> Don't worry, it's never going to happen. The current '3D' is
> just�
> stereoscopic imaging. You have to sit with your eyes
> horizontal in�
> order to watch it which is not the preferred position of the
> majority�
> of viewers (10% of children watch TV upside down). Also you
> cannot�
> look at different depths because they stay out of focus
> unlike reality�
> which is always better focused than your eyes, trying to
> look at�
> things the cameras are not focused on is what gives you
> headaches.
>
> To be acceptable 3D TV has to be something like holographic
> and will�
> require lots (hundreds) of cameras (or CGI).
>
> Cheers,
> Tim.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://www.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

The 10% of kids that watch tv upside down will be fine if they just duct tape their 3D glasses on backwards.

Or they could just buy a set of 3D glasses made for the Australian market :-)

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