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Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ???

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beww at beww

Jul 27, 2010, 9:40 AM

Post #1 of 28 (1486 views)
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Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ???

I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.

40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).

The consensus seems to be that the OS and Myth should be on a separate spindle from the video storage, which makes sense.

So the question is, would using a 40GB SSD for the OS and Myth result in any improvements in performance (or anything
else) that would justify the $100, or would putting that $100 into additional RAM be a better way to go?

Obviously the answer depends on a lot of variables, like where you are starting from, but if building from scratch, and
already using VDPAU, is it worth the cost? I'm talking about a combo FE/BE here.

There are other factors. Especially in a small case, using an SSD might free up space for an additional 3.5" HDD, perhaps
allowing a RAID array for video where there was not room for one previously. It might reduce heat loading, and power
requirements.

Maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to play with an SSD or two, but I'd be interested in what others might think.

Since the price range per GB for SSDs seems to vary considerably, it's obvious they are not all created equal, what specs
should I pay attention to to get the most bang for the buck?

So far I can't see anything that would justify using an SSD, but perhaps someone else can.

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joe at thefrys

Jul 27, 2010, 9:51 AM

Post #2 of 28 (1461 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

>
> I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.
>
> 40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).
> ...

So far I can't see anything that would justify using an SSD, but perhaps
> someone else can.
>
I doubt you'll find a good justification, mythtv simply won't see much, if
any, benefit running on an SSD. There are other, cheaper, ways to achieve
all of the advantages that an SSD might offer. Namely silent operation and
low power use/heat generation. So, sorry, can't give you an excuse to buy
one.

RobertCL at iname

Jul 27, 2010, 10:11 AM

Post #3 of 28 (1463 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On 27/07/2010 17:51, Joseph Fry wrote:
>
> I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.
>
> 40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).
> ...
>
> So far I can't see anything that would justify using an SSD, but
> perhaps someone else can.
>
> I doubt you'll find a good justification, mythtv simply won't see
> much, if any, benefit running on an SSD. There are other, cheaper,
> ways to achieve all of the advantages that an SSD might offer. Namely
> silent operation and low power use/heat generation. So, sorry, can't
> give you an excuse to buy one.
>
I'd have thought just buying a cheap USB stick and using that would be
just as good as using as SSD and much cheaper....

I run the Mythbuntu liveCD from a USB stick to turn my work laptop into
a secondard frontend and it boots in <30s to the desktop, then I just
have to run the frontend.

If it "wears out" the USB stick, I'll just get another one, it was only Ł10.

Robert.

anothersname at googlemail

Jul 27, 2010, 10:15 AM

Post #4 of 28 (1460 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On 27 July 2010 18:11, Robert Longbottom <RobertCL [at] iname> wrote:
> On 27/07/2010 17:51, Joseph Fry wrote:
>>
>> I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.
>>
>> 40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).
>> ...
>>
>> So far I can't see anything that would justify using an SSD, but perhaps
>> someone else can.
>
> I doubt you'll find a good justification, mythtv simply won't see much, if
> any, benefit running on an SSD. There are other, cheaper, ways to achieve
> all of the advantages that an SSD might offer. Namely silent operation and
> low power use/heat generation. So, sorry, can't give you an excuse to buy
> one.
>
> I'd have thought just buying a cheap USB stick and using that would be just
> as good as using as SSD and much cheaper....
>
> I run the Mythbuntu liveCD from a USB stick to turn my work laptop into a
> secondard frontend and it boots in <30s to the desktop, then I just have to
> run the frontend.
>
> If it "wears out" the USB stick, I'll just get another one, it was only Ł10.
>
> Robert.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>

+ 1 for Roberts suggestion and if you want to get really funky put
parted magic on the same stick and you have a complete repair kit
wherever you go.
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johnnyjboss at gmail

Jul 27, 2010, 10:28 AM

Post #5 of 28 (1447 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Another Sillyname
<anothersname [at] googlemail> wrote:
> On 27 July 2010 18:11, Robert Longbottom <RobertCL [at] iname> wrote:
>> On 27/07/2010 17:51, Joseph Fry wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.
>>>
>>> 40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).
>>> ...
>>>
>>> So far I can't see anything that would justify using an SSD, but perhaps
>>> someone else can.

I love mine - when I do take my box down for maintenance it reboots in
a jiffy and adds no noise to my system.

I know I shouldn't be rebooting it but I'm always tinkering.

If $100 isn't going to kill you it's a fun upgrade and the system
feels faster to me.

Like someone said on here, MythTv is a hobby and hobbies generally cost money.

-Johnny

>>
>> I doubt you'll find a good justification, mythtv simply won't see much, if
>> any, benefit running on an SSD. There are other, cheaper, ways to achieve
>> all of the advantages that an SSD might offer. Namely silent operation and
>> low power use/heat generation. So, sorry, can't give you an excuse to buy
>> one.
>>
>> I'd have thought just buying a cheap USB stick and using that would be just
>> as good as using as SSD and much cheaper....
>>
>> I run the Mythbuntu liveCD from a USB stick to turn my work laptop into a
>> secondard frontend and it boots in <30s to the desktop, then I just have to
>> run the frontend.
>>
>> If it "wears out" the USB stick, I'll just get another one, it was only Ł10.
>>
>> Robert.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mythtv-users mailing list
>> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
>> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>>
>>
>
> + 1 for Roberts suggestion and if you want to get really funky put
> parted magic on the same stick and you have a complete repair kit
> wherever you go.
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
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beww at beww

Jul 27, 2010, 10:31 AM

Post #6 of 28 (1449 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tuesday, July 27, 2010 11:15:35 am Another Sillyname wrote:
> On 27 July 2010 18:11, Robert Longbottom <RobertCL [at] iname> wrote:
> > On 27/07/2010 17:51, Joseph Fry wrote:
> >> I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.
> >>
> >> 40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).
> >> ...
> >>
> >> So far I can't see anything that would justify using an SSD, but perhaps
> >> someone else can.
> >
> > I doubt you'll find a good justification, mythtv simply won't see much,
> > if any, benefit running on an SSD. There are other, cheaper, ways to
> > achieve all of the advantages that an SSD might offer. Namely silent
> > operation and low power use/heat generation. So, sorry, can't give you
> > an excuse to buy one.
> >
> > I'd have thought just buying a cheap USB stick and using that would be
> > just as good as using as SSD and much cheaper....
> >
> > I run the Mythbuntu liveCD from a USB stick to turn my work laptop into a
> > secondard frontend and it boots in <30s to the desktop, then I just have
> > to run the frontend.
> >
> > If it "wears out" the USB stick, I'll just get another one, it was only
> > Ł10.

> + 1 for Roberts suggestion and if you want to get really funky put
> parted magic on the same stick and you have a complete repair kit
> wherever you go.

You mean like my FSF Membership Card/Boot drive?

I have a couple of Compact Flash to SATA adapters, but I don't have a 40GB (or larger) CF card or Microdrive. I'm booting
my frontend from a Hitachi 4GB Microdrive with one of these adapters and it works fine, but no better than a 2.5" HDD. I
did it mainly to gain more space for rotating drives in the case. The Microdrives seem faster than CF cards.

I have wondered if the SSDs are actually better in any way than USB sticks (maybe better wear leveling or caching
algorithm?) I also wonder if the Linux SATA drivers might be better than the stack that drives the USB sticks.
Transferring large files to and from a USB stick on my desktop seems extremely slow, and uses a lot of CPU for some reason,
but that's another issue.

Just about anything made these days will boot from a USB device, so the question would be if using a SATA device is better
in any way than a USB drive.
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travis at tabbal

Jul 27, 2010, 10:49 AM

Post #7 of 28 (1454 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:

>
> I have wondered if the SSDs are actually better in any way than USB sticks
> (maybe better wear leveling or caching
> algorithm?) I also wonder if the Linux SATA drivers might be better than
> the stack that drives the USB sticks.
> Transferring large files to and from a USB stick on my desktop seems
> extremely slow, and uses a lot of CPU for some reason,
> but that's another issue.
>
>

It's related though. USB is CPU hungry, that's part of why it's so cheap
compared to FireWire and such. It's like a WinModem based bus. :) SATA has
some smarts built in to speed things up and not bog down the CPU as much.

That said, I've run an FE booted from a USB stick and it works fine. The
only reason I stopped is that I moved to netboot so that I could do more
than one from the same image. An FE only box doesn't really need much local
storage, and doesn't really write much outside of the logs. I used an 8GB
stick and had over 4GB free the entire time I ran that machine. :)

As for wearing it out, I ran that for about a year without issue and still
use that USB stick today for other stuff. And if it does die, it was a whole
$20 back then. Probably closer to $10 now.

For the OP, I don't see any reason to fuss with SSDs for Myth. They are
faster for seek times, but if you're not trying to share spindles you don't
need to worry about seeks so much. I can't think of anything that a Myth
BE/FE does that would really make a big difference with. Faster DB
transactions certainly, but enough to make a difference that you would even
notice? I don't know. Worth a try I guess if you want to, you could always
move the SSD to another box later if you don't see a worthwhile difference
in Myth.

richard.e.morton at gmail

Jul 27, 2010, 11:04 AM

Post #8 of 28 (1449 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

I use a SATA to Compact flash adapter with a high-speed compact flash
card of 16gb, the whole thing cost me Ł60 about half the amount
required for a SSD and an SSD has far too much space than I need. 16gb
is plenty for a FE running ubuntu.

its silent & fast (faster boot times than a fairly new 3.5" 500gb
7200rpm hard disc).

just remember to mount it with on access time update turned off
(noatime) which gives you a nice little boost. This stops unnessacery
wear of the CF, which isnt as clever as SSDs with regard to wear rate.

R
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tylernt at gmail

Jul 27, 2010, 11:05 AM

Post #9 of 28 (1449 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

> I have wondered if the SSDs are actually better in any way than USB sticks (maybe better wear leveling or caching

USB sticks are generally intended for occasional casual use. SSDs are
expected to run intensive OSes and DBs etc so I'd be willing to bet
they have better wear leveling and higher-quality flash technology
(SLC vs MLC). That said, USB sticks are generally "good enough" for
our purposes.

> Just about anything made these days will boot from a USB device, so the question would be if using a SATA device is better

My BE runs off a USB HDD. There is definitely a performance hit as I
can see the USB storage process show up in 'top' from time to time and
take a few % CPU; also, I occasionally see ~3% CPU going to 'wait'
(usually when Myth does a reschedule and MySQL goes nuts). Still, I
can record one HD ATSC stream from my HDHR while watching another on
my remote diskless FE without problems. And while 3-5% CPU might seem
like a lot, remember I have an 1.2GHz ARM CPU the equivalent of a
800MHz Pentium 3, so while SATA is definitely better the hit for USB
probably won't be significant on modern systems.

> For the OP, I don't see any reason to fuss with SSDs for Myth.

Actually, I see them as viable alternatives to diskless-NFSRoot for a
FE. PXE/NFSRoot is a real pain to set up unless you have done it
before, whereas you can install just about any distro to a USB/SSD
without a lot of drama. So I guess the difference is mainly in the
human factor.
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beww at beww

Jul 27, 2010, 11:08 AM

Post #10 of 28 (1453 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tuesday, July 27, 2010 11:49:59 am Travis Tabbal wrote:

> For the OP, I don't see any reason to fuss with SSDs for Myth. They are
> faster for seek times, but if you're not trying to share spindles you don't
> need to worry about seeks so much. I can't think of anything that a Myth
> BE/FE does that would really make a big difference with. Faster DB
> transactions certainly, but enough to make a difference that you would even
> notice? I don't know. Worth a try I guess if you want to, you could always
> move the SSD to another box later if you don't see a worthwhile difference
> in Myth.

Thanks, that's essentially what I figured, but of course I might be missing something obvious (again).

I wondered if there might be cases where an SSD would actually be *worse* than a spinning drive.

Looking into that, I ran into this interesting quote from Linus Torvalds:

"And the sad part is that other SSD's generally absolutely suck when it comes to especially random write performance. And
small random writes is what you get when you update various filesystem meta-data on any normal filesystem, so it really does
matter. For example, a vendor who shall remain nameless has an SSD disk out there that they were also hawking at the
Kernel Summit, and while they get fine throughput (something like 50+MB/s on big contiguous writes), they benchmark a
pitiful 10 (yes, that's ten, as in "how many fingers do you have) small random writes per second. That is slower than a
rotational disk.

In contrast, the Intel SSD does about 8,500 4kB random writes per second. Yeah, that's over eight thousand IOps on random
write accesses with a relevant block size, rather than some silly and unrealistic contiguous write test. That's what I
call solid-state media.

The whole thing just rocks. Everything performs well. You can put that disk in a machine, and suddenly you almost don't
even need to care whether things were in your page cache or not. Firefox starts up pretty much as snappily in the cold-
cache case as it does hot-cache. You can do package installation and big untars, and you don't even notice it, because
your desktop doesn't get laggy or anything.

So here's the deal: right now, don't buy any other SSD than the Intel ones, because as far as I can tell, all the other
ones are pretty much inferior to the much cheaper traditional disks, unless you never do any writes at all (and turn off
'atime', for that matter)."

I've never known Linus to push hardware, at least not since the 90s when he recommended the Alpha CPU, and we all know how
that turned out in the end.

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drees76 at gmail

Jul 27, 2010, 11:58 AM

Post #11 of 28 (1450 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
> So here's the deal: right now, don't buy any other SSD than the Intel ones, because as far as I can tell, all the other
> ones are pretty much inferior to the much cheaper traditional disks, unless you never do any writes at all (and turn off
> 'atime', for that matter)."

There are a large number of SSDs that perform very well - you just
need to do a bit of homework to make sure you get a good one. OCZ
Vertex/Agility drives (have 2 Vertexes myself they are FAST) for
example are also very good.

-Dave
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travis at tabbal

Jul 27, 2010, 12:00 PM

Post #12 of 28 (1449 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:

>
> I've never known Linus to push hardware, at least not since the 90s when he
> recommended the Alpha CPU, and we all know how
> that turned out in the end.

Alpha was quite good at the time. Too bad they faded into obscurity. They
even got Windows support in some versions of NT.

As for SSD, I agree with Linus there as well. Intel SSDs are quite good. I'd
also run an OCZ Vertex 2. Small random writes kill SSDs, and so the people
that make them don't like to publish those numbers. Random reads are super
fast, and streaming I/O is fine (as it is with an HDD). But those random
writes hurt. TRIM and other tech has helped a LOT, though I'm not 100% sure
of support for that in Linux as I haven't run any SSDs in Linux. I'm sure if
it helps Linux, it will find it's way into the kernel drivers.

ctmythtv at pacbell

Jul 27, 2010, 12:15 PM

Post #13 of 28 (1449 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

Brian Wood wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 27, 2010 11:15:35 am Another Sillyname wrote:
>> On 27 July 2010 18:11, Robert Longbottom <RobertCL [at] iname> wrote:
>> > On 27/07/2010 17:51, Joseph Fry wrote:
>> >> I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.
>> >>
>> >> 40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >> So far I can't see anything that would justify using an SSD, but perhaps
>> >> someone else can.
>> >
>> > I doubt you'll find a good justification, mythtv simply won't see much,
>> > if any, benefit running on an SSD. There are other, cheaper, ways to
>> > achieve all of the advantages that an SSD might offer. Namely silent
>> > operation and low power use/heat generation. So, sorry, can't give you
>> > an excuse to buy one.
>> >
>> > I'd have thought just buying a cheap USB stick and using that would be
>> > just as good as using as SSD and much cheaper....
>> >
>> > I run the Mythbuntu liveCD from a USB stick to turn my work laptop into a
>> > secondard frontend and it boots in <30s to the desktop, then I just have
>> > to run the frontend.
>> >
>> > If it "wears out" the USB stick, I'll just get another one, it was only
>> > Ł10.
>
>> + 1 for Roberts suggestion and if you want to get really funky put
>> parted magic on the same stick and you have a complete repair kit
>> wherever you go.
>
> You mean like my FSF Membership Card/Boot drive?
>
> I have a couple of Compact Flash to SATA adapters, but I don't have a 40GB (or larger) CF card or Microdrive. I'm booting
> my frontend from a Hitachi 4GB Microdrive with one of these adapters and it works fine...

hmmm... I have 2 of those Hitachi Microdrives left over from when I
swapped them out for 32GB CF cards in my MuVo˛ MP3 players.
Don't s'pose they'd be any good for a Master Backend/ Frontend combo box.
MicroRAID array anyone?

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eric at lisaneric

Jul 27, 2010, 12:16 PM

Post #14 of 28 (1451 views)
Permalink

Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Joseph Fry <joe [at] thefrys> wrote:
>> I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.
>>
>> 40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).
>> ...
>>
>> So far I can't see anything that would justify using an SSD, but perhaps
>> someone else can.
>
> I doubt you'll find a good justification, mythtv simply won't see much, if
> any, benefit running on an SSD.

I'd have to disagree here. I had originally installed my myth system
on 32-bit hardware and later replace it with a 64-bit CPU without
upgrading the OS. When I finally decided to go 64-bit on the software
side, it seemed easiest to install onto a new drive. I got a 30GB OCZ
Vertex Turbo SSD to hold the OS and mysql database, but mounted /home,
/var/lib/myth*, and a bunch of other such stuff from my existing
magnetic disk.

It's working well. It boots *much* faster and (while I haven't done
any explicit benchmarks), stuff that does random reads on the database
(e.g., searching for stuff to record when scheduling recordings) feels
faster to me.

Eric
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beww at beww

Jul 27, 2010, 12:50 PM

Post #15 of 28 (1432 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tuesday, July 27, 2010 01:15:33 pm Clay wrote:

> >
> > I have a couple of Compact Flash to SATA adapters, but I don't have a
> > 40GB (or larger) CF card or Microdrive. I'm booting my frontend from a
> > Hitachi 4GB Microdrive with one of these adapters and it works fine...
>
> hmmm... I have 2 of those Hitachi Microdrives left over from when I
> swapped them out for 32GB CF cards in my MuVo˛ MP3 players.
> Don't s'pose they'd be any good for a Master Backend/ Frontend combo box.
> MicroRAID array anyone?

There was a long thread on the NSLU2 (aka SLUG) mailing list a while back about RAID systems using flash, at the time the
consensus was that the Microdrives were better than flash CF cards, but I forget the details.

On the subject of the slugs, I set one up to run Debian from a flash drive and intentionally did everything "wrong". I did
not mount with noatime, I used swap on the flash device itself, essentially everything everyone says not to do.

My idea was to see how long the flash device it would last before failing, running Debian as a media server. It's been over
3 years and it still runs fine, no apparent wear problems with the flash stick at all.

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jarod at wilsonet

Jul 27, 2010, 3:15 PM

Post #16 of 28 (1403 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 2:58 PM, David Rees <drees76 [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
>> So here's the deal: right now, don't buy any other SSD than the Intel ones, because as far as I can tell, all the other
>> ones are pretty much inferior to the much cheaper traditional disks, unless you never do any writes at all (and turn off
>> 'atime', for that matter)."
>
> There are a large number of SSDs that perform very well - you just
> need to do a bit of homework to make sure you get a good one. OCZ
> Vertex/Agility drives (have 2 Vertexes myself they are FAST) for
> example are also very good.

I have both an OCZ Vertex and an Intel X25-M, both fantastic SSD, very
speedy. The X25-M is in my MacBook Pro, the Vertex is in my primary
frontend. Helps keep the noise down to a minimum, and lately, I have a
tendency to shut it down when not in use (not much to watch during the
summer). The thing boots lightning-fast. I've been eying an X25-V or
another 30G Vertex for my other frontend, and possibly a WD Silicon
Edge Blue for my thinkpad (which used to have the X25-M in it, and it
misses having an SSD, but then again, I have umpteen source trees on
it these days, so I'd need a relatively huge (and expensive) SSD to be
practical).

Anyway. Don't know that I'd bother with an SSD for my backend, but I'm
definitely a fan of a small one for frontend boxes. USB sticks are too
slow and unsightly for my taste.

--
Jarod Wilson
jarod [at] wilsonet
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tylernt at gmail

Jul 27, 2010, 3:45 PM

Post #17 of 28 (1398 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

> USB sticks are too
> slow and unsightly for my taste.

This fixes half of that problem:

http://i28.tinypic.com/2yxezp3.jpg

;)
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mythtv at theseekerr

Jul 27, 2010, 5:39 PM

Post #18 of 28 (1392 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:15 AM, Jarod Wilson <jarod [at] wilsonet> wrote:
>> There are a large number of SSDs that perform very well - you just
>> need to do a bit of homework to make sure you get a good one. OCZ
>> Vertex/Agility drives (have 2 Vertexes myself they are FAST) for
>> example are also very good.
>
> I have both an OCZ Vertex and an Intel X25-M, both fantastic SSD, very
> speedy. The X25-M is in my MacBook Pro, the Vertex is in my primary
> frontend. Helps keep the noise down to a minimum, and lately, I have a
> tendency to shut it down when not in use (not much to watch during the
> summer). The thing boots lightning-fast. I've been eying an X25-V or
> another 30G Vertex for my other frontend, and possibly a WD Silicon
> Edge Blue for my thinkpad (which used to have the X25-M in it, and it
> misses having an SSD, but then again, I have umpteen source trees on
> it these days, so I'd need a relatively huge (and expensive) SSD to be
> practical).
>
> Anyway. Don't know that I'd bother with an SSD for my backend, but I'm
> definitely a fan of a small one for frontend boxes. USB sticks are too
> slow and unsightly for my taste.

Avoid the SiliconEdge Blue, word is that it's fairly ordinary -
basically the same drive as the Kingston V Series, pretty poor random
read performance. There are rumours that we'll see an 80GB X25-V
around the end of the year, so it might be worth keeping an ear open.

If your laptop needs more storage than SSD's can affordably offer,
have a look at the Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid drives. Not as fast as a
proper SSD, but it ought to speed up boot times a fair bit.

I was considering going to an SSD in my frontends, but Lucid boots
pretty damn quick anyway, so I didn't bother. I do use an X25-V in my
desktop machine - it's a subtle difference, in that it makes the
computer act like you expected it to in the first place, but Firefox
opening instantly is a particularly nice feature.

- Chris
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jarod at wilsonet

Jul 27, 2010, 6:01 PM

Post #19 of 28 (1393 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Christopher Kerr <mythtv [at] theseekerr> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:15 AM, Jarod Wilson <jarod [at] wilsonet> wrote:
>>> There are a large number of SSDs that perform very well - you just
>>> need to do a bit of homework to make sure you get a good one. OCZ
>>> Vertex/Agility drives (have 2 Vertexes myself they are FAST) for
>>> example are also very good.
>>
>> I have both an OCZ Vertex and an Intel X25-M, both fantastic SSD, very
>> speedy. The X25-M is in my MacBook Pro, the Vertex is in my primary
>> frontend. Helps keep the noise down to a minimum, and lately, I have a
>> tendency to shut it down when not in use (not much to watch during the
>> summer). The thing boots lightning-fast. I've been eying an X25-V or
>> another 30G Vertex for my other frontend, and possibly a WD Silicon
>> Edge Blue for my thinkpad (which used to have the X25-M in it, and it
>> misses having an SSD, but then again, I have umpteen source trees on
>> it these days, so I'd need a relatively huge (and expensive) SSD to be
>> practical).
>>
>> Anyway. Don't know that I'd bother with an SSD for my backend, but I'm
>> definitely a fan of a small one for frontend boxes. USB sticks are too
>> slow and unsightly for my taste.
>
> Avoid the SiliconEdge Blue, word is that it's fairly ordinary -

Hm. I'd heard otherwise. One of our fs/block layer guys said it was
actually pretty solid. Not quite as good performance-wise as the
X25-M, but pretty close to on par with the Vertex. The other
interesting drive (iirc) is the Crucial C300. Someone in the office
has the 256G variant of that...

> basically the same drive as the Kingston V Series, pretty poor random
> read performance. There are rumours that we'll see an 80GB X25-V
> around the end of the year, so it might be worth keeping an ear open.

Eh. For me, 80G is still in the not-quite-big-enough to be really
useful for a heavy usage system, and oversized for things like my
mythfrontends. (I've had to make some sacrifices on what I've put on
the X25-M in my MBP, would really rather have a 160G or larger SSD,
but they were prohibitively expensive when I got the 80G).

> If your laptop needs more storage than SSD's can affordably offer,
> have a look at the Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid drives. Not as fast as a
> proper SSD, but it ought to speed up boot times a fair bit.

Saw at least one review that said the hybrid drive wasn't any faster
than a much cheaper 7200rpm 2.5" conventional Seagate drive. I did
consider one of those.

> I was considering going to an SSD in my frontends, but Lucid boots
> pretty damn quick anyway, so I didn't bother. I do use an X25-V in my
> desktop machine - it's a subtle difference, in that it makes the
> computer act like you expected it to in the first place, but Firefox
> opening instantly is a particularly nice feature.

My solution for that last one is to simply not use Firefox. :)

I *would* love to get a mac mini server, replace the two disks in it
with a pair of X25-E drives and use that as a workstation in the
office though...

--
Jarod Wilson
jarod [at] wilsonet
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mythtv at theseekerr

Jul 27, 2010, 7:53 PM

Post #20 of 28 (1381 views)
Permalink

Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Jarod Wilson <jarod [at] wilsonet> wrote:
>> If your laptop needs more storage than SSD's can affordably offer,
>> have a look at the Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid drives. Not as fast as a
>> proper SSD, but it ought to speed up boot times a fair bit.
>
> Saw at least one review that said the hybrid drive wasn't any faster
> than a much cheaper 7200rpm 2.5" conventional Seagate drive. I did
> consider one of those.

Quite comprehensive Anandtech coverage here:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3734/seagates-momentus-xt-review-finally-a-good-hybrid-hdd
- basically it's good for boot times, plus load times of a few
selected applications. Hopeless for random read/write. I'm seriously
considering one for my laptop, because it takes an age to boot, but I
don't do anything particularly disk intensive once it's up and going.

>> I was considering going to an SSD in my frontends, but Lucid boots
>> pretty damn quick anyway, so I didn't bother. I do use an X25-V in my
>> desktop machine - it's a subtle difference, in that it makes the
>> computer act like you expected it to in the first place, but Firefox
>> opening instantly is a particularly nice feature.
>
> My solution for that last one is to simply not use Firefox. :)

I have about 5 extensions that I just can't do without, although the
list is getting shorter. I'd use Chrome if only the interface were a
bit more flexible - basically, I want fullscreen mode but with the
Tabs bar always visible. I can do that in Firefox, but not in Chrome,
and certainly not in Opera.

> I *would* love to get a mac mini server, replace the two disks in it
> with a pair of X25-E drives and use that as a workstation in the
> office though...

You must be chronically short on deskspace ;o) I have a
one-size-fits-all approach to workstations at the moment - it's less
than an i5 750? Too slow. More? Too expensive. Keeps things very
simple!

I might shut up now, before I clutter up this list even more than usual....

- Chris
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jarod at wilsonet

Jul 27, 2010, 8:33 PM

Post #21 of 28 (1374 views)
Permalink

Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Christopher Kerr
<mythtv [at] theseekerr> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Jarod Wilson <jarod [at] wilsonet> wrote:
>>> If your laptop needs more storage than SSD's can affordably offer,
>>> have a look at the Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid drives. Not as fast as a
>>> proper SSD, but it ought to speed up boot times a fair bit.
>>
>> Saw at least one review that said the hybrid drive wasn't any faster
>> than a much cheaper 7200rpm 2.5" conventional Seagate drive. I did
>> consider one of those.
>
> Quite comprehensive Anandtech coverage here:
> http://www.anandtech.com/show/3734/seagates-momentus-xt-review-finally-a-good-hybrid-hdd
> - basically it's good for boot times, plus load times of a few
> selected applications. Hopeless for random read/write. I'm seriously
> considering one for my laptop, because it takes an age to boot, but I
> don't do anything particularly disk intensive once it's up and going.

My laptops all properly suspend and resume these days, so boot time is
usually of little consequence. Except for the part where I keep
throwing random "IR subsystem improvements of the day" kernel builds
at the thinkpad...

>> My solution for that last one is to simply not use Firefox. :)
>
> I have about 5 extensions that I just can't do without, although the
> list is getting shorter. I'd use Chrome if only the interface were a
> bit more flexible - basically, I want fullscreen mode but with the
> Tabs bar always visible. I can do that in Firefox, but not in Chrome,
> and certainly not in Opera.

I find Chrome's ui minimal enough that maximized on a 1680x1050 screen
(my thinkpad) is good enough. I spend more time in terminal windows
anyway. ;)

>> I *would* love to get a mac mini server, replace the two disks in it
>> with a pair of X25-E drives and use that as a workstation in the
>> office though...
>
> You must be chronically short on deskspace ;o)

A bit, yes. I've got three monitors and at least half a dozen machines
in my office, not counting laptops that frequently appear in there
too. :)

> I have a
> one-size-fits-all approach to workstations at the moment - it's less
> than an i5 750? Too slow. More? Too expensive. Keeps things very
> simple!

I just need a box that can power two 24" monitors, one of them having
a mini displayport connection (the other hdmi/dvi), and I ssh into
most of the other machines, so the mini fits the bill nicely (bonus
points because it runs mac os x). Core i5 750 you say? Meh. I do most
actual build stuff on a dual Xeon X5670 box, which has dual X25-M
drives RAID0 striped in it. :)

http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=47920

(Its racked down in the lab where I don't have to listen to it).

> I might shut up now, before I clutter up this list even more than usual....

Oh, right, yeah, we're off on a bit of a tanget now, eh? Oh well.

--
Jarod Wilson
jarod [at] wilsonet
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ope-linux at gmx

Jul 28, 2010, 5:17 AM

Post #22 of 28 (1338 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On 27.07.2010 21:16, Eric Sharkey wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Joseph Fry <joe [at] thefrys> wrote:
>
>>> I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.
>>>
>>> 40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).
>>> ...
>>>
>>> So far I can't see anything that would justify using an SSD, but perhaps
>>> someone else can.
>>>
>> I doubt you'll find a good justification, mythtv simply won't see much, if
>> any, benefit running on an SSD.
>>
> I'd have to disagree here. I had originally installed my myth system
> on 32-bit hardware and later replace it with a 64-bit CPU without
> upgrading the OS. When I finally decided to go 64-bit on the software
> side, it seemed easiest to install onto a new drive. I got a 30GB OCZ
> Vertex Turbo SSD to hold the OS and mysql database, but mounted /home,
> /var/lib/myth*, and a bunch of other such stuff from my existing
> magnetic disk.
>
> It's working well. It boots *much* faster and (while I haven't done
> any explicit benchmarks), stuff that does random reads on the database
> (e.g., searching for stuff to record when scheduling recordings) feels
> faster to me.
>
>
I agree, I'm using a Supertalent LE 32G
(http://www.supertalent.com/products/ssd_detail.php?type=UltraDrive)
now 1 year old - on a Intel C2D E8400 on Asus P5KSE (Intel P35) Board in
a Zalman HD160XT Plus Chassis. For
bulk storage I'm using a green HDD (WD 2TB)

There is a BE and FE on this machine using ACPI soft off to reduce power
consumption. This requires a fast boost
process. All DB operations are really fast, faster than USB; also OS
updates. Booting is faster than on my Q95550
and Samsung F2 500GB (5000 1/min). Forget about USB sticks here from
performance point of view.

As you may assume, I use this for transcoding of records also. This
means I'm working in /var/tmp - on a solid state
disk, even using sometimes a little of 512MB of swap (on SDD) even I'm
spend the box 4GB on my 32bit Mythbuntu
(I know - what a waste, therefore I'm able to address ~3,2GB only, to be
fixed later on next year)

Anyway, if this would be a 24/7 machine, means booting once a year, a
USB stick may be sufficient, expect for all
DB and other operations. Another option may be a newer SATA 2,5"
notebock HD which is cheaper. If you have
~100$ spend it for the SDD on the use case I've described here - my
recommendation.

Regards,
Olaf

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jedi at mishnet

Jul 28, 2010, 12:11 PM

Post #23 of 28 (1327 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:00:13PM -0600, Travis Tabbal wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
>
> >
> > I've never known Linus to push hardware, at least not since the 90s when he
> > recommended the Alpha CPU, and we all know how
> > that turned out in the end.

It turned out badly but it was the best thing going at the time.

I knew someone with a larger server project that pretty much depended on
the extra horsepower that Alpha brought to the table. The more favored option
at the time simply didn't have a large enough chassis to deliver enough CPU
power for the application.

Alpha had a 4:1 speed advantage.

>
>
>
> Alpha was quite good at the time. Too bad they faded into obscurity. They
> even got Windows support in some versions of NT.

[deletia]
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beww at beww

Jul 28, 2010, 12:49 PM

Post #24 of 28 (1314 views)
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Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Wednesday, July 28, 2010 01:11:01 pm jedi wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:00:13PM -0600, Travis Tabbal wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
> > > I've never known Linus to push hardware, at least not since the 90s
> > > when he recommended the Alpha CPU, and we all know how
> > > that turned out in the end.
>
> It turned out badly but it was the best thing going at the time.
>
> I knew someone with a larger server project that pretty much depended on
> the extra horsepower that Alpha brought to the table. The more favored
> option at the time simply didn't have a large enough chassis to deliver
> enough CPU power for the application.
>
> Alpha had a 4:1 speed advantage.
>
> > Alpha was quite good at the time. Too bad they faded into obscurity. They
> > even got Windows support in some versions of NT.

The Alpha was great. I was an early adopter and loved it.

The Alpha CPU was killed by Carly "I Know How to Create Jobs" Fiorina.

The problem was the jobs she created were all in China.

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danielk at cuymedia

Jul 28, 2010, 8:30 PM

Post #25 of 28 (1299 views)
Permalink

Re: Opinions on Solid State Drives for Myth ??? [In reply to]

On Tue, 2010-07-27 at 10:40 -0600, Brian Wood wrote:
> I'm seeing 40GB SSDs for around $100.
>
> 40GB is enough for an OS and Myth itself (not video storage).
>
> The consensus seems to be that the OS and Myth should be on a separate spindle from the video storage, which makes sense.
>
> So the question is, would using a 40GB SSD for the OS and Myth result in any improvements in performance (or anything
> else) that would justify the $100, or would putting that $100 into additional RAM be a better way to go?

The quick answer is...put the money into a small 7200 rpm drive
for the boot/db disk for the best performance. If noise is a concern
a second 5000 rpm drive for the boot/db disk would be a better
option than an SSD.

I've found that SSD drives are highly variable in their write speeds.
This is especially true of random writes where I've seen wall clock
times of 500ms to write 1 byte to disk, or to put it in perspective
enough time for the CPUs to retire 36 billion instructions. The
manufacturer stats are always for throughput of streaming writes to
factory fresh disk, which isn't exactly reflective of real world use.
So you need to read reviews of the particular model of disk you are
interested in on anandtech or similar; you really can't go wrong with
the Intel SSD drives, but there are some other drives that are better
value for most users.

-- Daniel

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