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MS media center

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Dean at cognation

Feb 26, 2010, 1:09 PM

Post #1 of 50 (2531 views)
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MS media center

Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide
information?

Is it only available in certain countries (eg not available in
Asia/Australia etc).

Cheers,

Dean

oliver.greg at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 1:15 PM

Post #2 of 50 (2457 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Dean Collins <Dean [at] cognation> wrote:
> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide information?
>
>
>
> Is it only available in certain countries (eg not available in
> Asia/Australia etc).

In the US, my machine pulled it from zap2it when I was testing my
hdhomerun tuning with it... That was 1.5 months ago or so..
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raymond at wagnerrp

Feb 26, 2010, 1:24 PM

Post #3 of 50 (2461 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:
>
> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide
> information?
>

Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have
purchased Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE.
It's basically the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS,
but it is paid for in the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.

nick.rout at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 1:25 PM

Post #4 of 50 (2459 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp> wrote:
> On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:
>
> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide information?
>
> Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have purchased
> Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE. It's basically
> the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS, but it is paid for in
> the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.
>

There is a program out there to convert the ms epg format to xmltv
format. Can't recall the name...
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Dean at cognation

Feb 26, 2010, 1:49 PM

Post #5 of 50 (2462 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

Yep that's what I was trying to work out, if there isn't a recurring
income stream from media center it basically means MS is paying for it
out of their pocket. The bigger question though is MS Media center only
on sale in some countries? I thought it was like Win 7 you could buy and
use it anywhere.

Cheers,

Dean

________________________________

From: mythtv-users-bounces [at] mythtv
[mailto:mythtv-users-bounces [at] mythtv] On Behalf Of Raymond Wagner
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 4:24 PM
To: Discussion about mythtv
Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] MS media center

On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:

Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide
information?

Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have
purchased Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE.
It's basically the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS,
but it is paid for in the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.

nick.rout at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 1:56 PM

Post #6 of 50 (2463 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Dean Collins <Dean [at] cognation> wrote:
> Yep that’s what I was trying to work out, if there isn’t a recurring income
> stream from media center it basically means MS is paying for it out of their
> pocket. The bigger question though is MS Media center only on sale in some
> countries? I thought it was like Win 7 you could buy and use it anywhere.
>

It's for sale everywhere AFAIT, it's just they don't have EPG data everywhere.

I believe they do in NZ, but obviously it's not from Tribune or zap2it.
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nick.rout at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 1:58 PM

Post #7 of 50 (2462 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Dean Collins <Dean [at] cognation> wrote:
>> Yep that’s what I was trying to work out, if there isn’t a recurring income
>> stream from media center it basically means MS is paying for it out of their
>> pocket. The bigger question though is MS Media center only on sale in some
>> countries? I thought it was like Win 7 you could buy and use it anywhere.
>>
>
> It's for sale everywhere AFAIT, it's just they don't have EPG data everywhere.
>
> I believe they do in NZ, but obviously it's not from Tribune or zap2it.
>

oh and here is the program I was referring to: http://mc2xml.110mb.com/
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chmeredith at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 1:58 PM

Post #8 of 50 (2461 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp> wrote:
>> On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide information?
>>
>> Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have purchased
>> Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE. It's basically
>> the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS, but it is paid for in
>> the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.
>>
>
> There is a program out there to convert the ms epg format to xmltv
> format. Can't recall the name...

It's called mc2xml and I've written up a MythTV howto guide here:

http://monopedilos.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=mc2xml

I've been using this script and method, unmodified, since summer 2008.
It's wonderful. And since this has come up in the past, there is
nothing illegal about this AT ALL. At worst, it's a violation of the
EULA of Windows MCE, but that's only even relevant if you have
accepted an MCE EULA. Otherwise, there is nothing WHATSOEVER illegal
about this.

Let me know if you need any assistance. I have nothing to do with
mc2xml, I'm just a happy "customer."
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kkuphal at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 2:01 PM

Post #9 of 50 (2455 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Christopher Meredith
<chmeredith [at] gmail>wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp>
> wrote:
> >> On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:
> >>
> >> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide
> information?
> >>
> >> Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have
> purchased
> >> Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE. It's
> basically
> >> the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS, but it is paid
> for in
> >> the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.
> >>
> >
> > There is a program out there to convert the ms epg format to xmltv
> > format. Can't recall the name...
>
> It's called mc2xml and I've written up a MythTV howto guide here:
>
> http://monopedilos.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=mc2xml
>
> I've been using this script and method, unmodified, since summer 2008.
> It's wonderful. And since this has come up in the past, there is
> nothing illegal about this AT ALL. At worst, it's a violation of the
> EULA of Windows MCE, but that's only even relevant if you have
> accepted an MCE EULA. Otherwise, there is nothing WHATSOEVER illegal
> about this.
>

IANAL so I can't speak to that but that also hasn't stopped many a company
from dictating what you can and cannot do with the data they provide you for
specific uses.

Kevin

raymond at wagnerrp

Feb 26, 2010, 2:01 PM

Post #10 of 50 (2465 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On 2/26/2010 16:49, Dean Collins wrote:
>
> The bigger question though is MS Media center only on sale in some
> countries? I thought it was like Win 7 you could buy and use it anywhere.
>

It is not something you purchase. It is a component of windows that
comes with Home Premium and Ultimate.

bill at bbqninja

Feb 26, 2010, 2:09 PM

Post #11 of 50 (2455 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 9:01 AM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal [at] gmail> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Christopher Meredith <
> chmeredith [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp>
>> wrote:
>> >> On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide
>> information?
>> >>
>> >> Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have
>> purchased
>> >> Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE. It's
>> basically
>> >> the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS, but it is paid
>> for in
>> >> the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.
>> >>
>> >
>> > There is a program out there to convert the ms epg format to xmltv
>> > format. Can't recall the name...
>>
>> It's called mc2xml and I've written up a MythTV howto guide here:
>>
>> http://monopedilos.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=mc2xml
>>
>> I've been using this script and method, unmodified, since summer 2008.
>> It's wonderful. And since this has come up in the past, there is
>> nothing illegal about this AT ALL. At worst, it's a violation of the
>> EULA of Windows MCE, but that's only even relevant if you have
>> accepted an MCE EULA. Otherwise, there is nothing WHATSOEVER illegal
>> about this.
>>
>
> IANAL so I can't speak to that but that also hasn't stopped many a company
> from dictating what you can and cannot do with the data they provide you for
> specific uses.
>
> Kevin
>
>
It doesn't help the US, but recently it was found again in AU that you
cannot copyright pure facts.

That doesn't make it sustainable, or morally right, though.

bill at bbqninja

Feb 26, 2010, 2:10 PM

Post #12 of 50 (2462 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Dean Collins <Dean [at] cognation> wrote:
> > Yep thatâ€™s what I was trying to work out, if there isnâ€™t a recurring
> income
> > stream from media center it basically means MS is paying for it out of
> their
> > pocket. The bigger question though is MS Media center only on sale in
> some
> > countries? I thought it was like Win 7 you could buy and use it anywhere.
> >
>
> It's for sale everywhere AFAIT, it's just they don't have EPG data
> everywhere.
>
> I believe they do in NZ, but obviously it's not from Tribune or zap2it.
> _______________________________________________
>

NZ and AU use EIT I believe for MCE.

chmeredith at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 2:19 PM

Post #13 of 50 (2455 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal [at] gmail> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Christopher Meredith <chmeredith [at] gmail>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp>
>> > wrote:
>> >> On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide
>> >> information?
>> >>
>> >> Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have
>> >> purchased
>> >> Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE. It's
>> >> basically
>> >> the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS, but it is paid
>> >> for in
>> >> the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.
>> >>
>> >
>> > There is a program out there to convert the ms epg format to xmltv
>> > format. Can't recall the name...
>>
>> It's called mc2xml and I've written up a MythTV howto guide here:
>>
>> http://monopedilos.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=mc2xml
>>
>> I've been using this script and method, unmodified, since summer 2008.
>> It's wonderful. And since this has come up in the past, there is
>> nothing illegal about this AT ALL. At worst, it's a violation of the
>> EULA of Windows MCE, but that's only even relevant if you have
>> accepted an MCE EULA. Otherwise, there is nothing WHATSOEVER illegal
>> about this.
>
> IANAL so I can't speak to that but that also hasn't stopped many a company
> from dictating what you can and cannot do with the data they provide you for
> specific uses.

I'm not a lawyer either, but I will be in August. ;-) And companies
can restrict the use of data they provide, but they do so in the form
of licences. The MCE EULA (which is a form of a contract which you
must ACCEPT to be bound to) says that you can only access their
servers with MCE. But the data is not copyrighted (at least not by
Microsoft or Zap2It) and as long as you have not accepted the MCE
EULA, there's nothing to violate.

Bill mentioned morality. At best, the only negative argument about
morality I can think of is that Microsoft doesn't want people using
its data without paying for a MS product and someone might condier it
immoral to use data contrary to the wishes of its provider. If you
fall into this camp, you should seriously consider whether it's even
morally right to use a homebrew DVR software at all, something the
content providers clearly do not want you doing.

At the end of the day, the MCE servers are open, unencrypted, and
freely accessible to anyone. Using mc2xml does not violate copyright
and does not implicate the DMCA. At worst, it's a violation of a
contract of adhesion (the MCE EULA), but ONLY if you have accepted it.
Even then, it is practically unenforceable.
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oliver.greg at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 2:30 PM

Post #14 of 50 (2432 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Christopher Meredith
<chmeredith [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal [at] gmail> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Christopher Meredith <chmeredith [at] gmail>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
>>> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >> On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide
>>> >> information?
>>> >>
>>> >> Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have
>>> >> purchased
>>> >> Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE. It's
>>> >> basically
>>> >> the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS, but it is paid
>>> >> for in
>>> >> the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > There is a program out there to convert the ms epg format to xmltv
>>> > format. Can't recall the name...
>>>
>>> It's called mc2xml and I've written up a MythTV howto guide here:
>>>
>>> http://monopedilos.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=mc2xml
>>>
>>> I've been using this script and method, unmodified, since summer 2008.
>>> It's wonderful. And since this has come up in the past, there is
>>> nothing illegal about this AT ALL. At worst, it's a violation of the
>>> EULA of Windows MCE, but that's only even relevant if you have
>>> accepted an MCE EULA. Otherwise, there is nothing WHATSOEVER illegal
>>> about this.
>>
>> IANAL so I can't speak to that but that also hasn't stopped many a company
>> from dictating what you can and cannot do with the data they provide you for
>> specific uses.
>
> I'm not a lawyer either, but I will be in August. ;-) And companies
> can restrict the use of data they provide, but they do so in the form
> of licences. The MCE EULA (which is a form of a contract which you
> must ACCEPT to be bound to) says that you can only access their
> servers with MCE. But the data is not copyrighted (at least not by
> Microsoft or Zap2It) and as long as you have not accepted the MCE
> EULA, there's nothing to violate.
>
> Bill mentioned morality. At best, the only negative argument about
> morality I can think of is that Microsoft doesn't want people using
> its data without paying for a MS product and someone might condier it
> immoral to use data contrary to the wishes of its provider. If you
> fall into this camp, you should seriously consider whether it's even
> morally right to use a homebrew DVR software at all, something the
> content providers clearly do not want you doing.
>
> At the end of the day, the MCE servers are open, unencrypted, and
> freely accessible to anyone. Using mc2xml does not violate copyright
> and does not implicate the DMCA. At worst, it's a violation of a
> contract of adhesion (the MCE EULA), but ONLY if you have accepted it.
> Even then, it is practically unenforceable.

I just setup my vista virtual machine (laptop supplied) MCE for NZ and
postal code 2022 in Aukland. It all looked well, packet captures
showed it was going to data.tvdownload.microsoft.com, and them came
back and said guide data is not available for my location, so I guess
MCE does not provide the EPG for NZ.. Unless there is a better postal
code to try?? I'm not from there...

-Greg
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raymond at wagnerrp

Feb 26, 2010, 2:34 PM

Post #15 of 50 (2438 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On 2/26/2010 17:19, Christopher Meredith wrote:
> At the end of the day, the MCE servers are open, unencrypted, and
> freely accessible to anyone.
>

Are they? Mc2xml is closed source, so you can't tell what it's doing
short of watching it with a network monitor.
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oliver.greg at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 2:35 PM

Post #16 of 50 (2432 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Greg Oliver <oliver.greg [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Christopher Meredith
> <chmeredith [at] gmail> wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Christopher Meredith <chmeredith [at] gmail>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >> On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide
>>>> >> information?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have
>>>> >> purchased
>>>> >> Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE. It's
>>>> >> basically
>>>> >> the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS, but it is paid
>>>> >> for in
>>>> >> the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > There is a program out there to convert the ms epg format to xmltv
>>>> > format. Can't recall the name...
>>>>
>>>> It's called mc2xml and I've written up a MythTV howto guide here:
>>>>
>>>> http://monopedilos.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=mc2xml
>>>>
>>>> I've been using this script and method, unmodified, since summer 2008.
>>>> It's wonderful. And since this has come up in the past, there is
>>>> nothing illegal about this AT ALL. At worst, it's a violation of the
>>>> EULA of Windows MCE, but that's only even relevant if you have
>>>> accepted an MCE EULA. Otherwise, there is nothing WHATSOEVER illegal
>>>> about this.
>>>
>>> IANAL so I can't speak to that but that also hasn't stopped many a company
>>> from dictating what you can and cannot do with the data they provide you for
>>> specific uses.
>>
>> I'm not a lawyer either, but I will be in August. ;-) And companies
>> can restrict the use of data they provide, but they do so in the form
>> of licences. The MCE EULA (which is a form of a contract which you
>> must ACCEPT to be bound to) says that you can only access their
>> servers with MCE. But the data is not copyrighted (at least not by
>> Microsoft or Zap2It) and as long as you have not accepted the MCE
>> EULA, there's nothing to violate.
>>
>> Bill mentioned morality. At best, the only negative argument about
>> morality I can think of is that Microsoft doesn't want people using
>> its data without paying for a MS product and someone might condier it
>> immoral to use data contrary to the wishes of its provider. If you
>> fall into this camp, you should seriously consider whether it's even
>> morally right to use a homebrew DVR software at all, something the
>> content providers clearly do not want you doing.
>>
>> At the end of the day, the MCE servers are open, unencrypted, and
>> freely accessible to anyone. Using mc2xml does not violate copyright
>> and does not implicate the DMCA. At worst, it's a violation of a
>> contract of adhesion (the MCE EULA), but ONLY if you have accepted it.
>> Even then, it is practically unenforceable.
>
> I just setup my vista virtual machine (laptop supplied) MCE for NZ and
> postal code 2022 in Aukland. It all looked well, packet captures
> showed it was going to data.tvdownload.microsoft.com, and them came
> back and said guide data is not available for my location, so I guess
> MCE does not provide the EPG for NZ.. Unless there is a better postal
> code to try?? I'm not from there...

The EULA also stated they can start charging or change pricing for EPG
data at any time with 30 days written prior notice..
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nick.rout at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 3:17 PM

Post #17 of 50 (2438 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Bill Williamson <bill [at] bbqninja> wrote:

>> It's for sale everywhere AFAIT, it's just they don't have EPG data
>> everywhere.
>>
>> I believe they do in NZ, but obviously it's not from Tribune or zap2it.
>> _______________________________________________
>
> NZ and AU use EIT I believe for MCE.

Yes I think you are right, my bad.
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chmeredith at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 4:01 PM

Post #18 of 50 (2425 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp> wrote:
> On 2/26/2010 17:19, Christopher Meredith wrote:
>>
>> At the end of the day, the MCE servers are open, unencrypted, and
>> freely accessible to anyone.
>>
>
> Are they? Mc2xml is closed source, so you can't tell what it's doing short
> of watching it with a network monitor.

MCE and mc2xml aren't the same thing. My point was that using mc2xml
doesn't require "hacking" or spoofing the MCE servers to get the data.
If MS wants to make sure no one else can user their servers, they
could do that. But they don't, so no laws are broken by using
something like mc2xml. Whether the author of mc2xml is spying on me is
another matter. If that concerns you, by all means, don't use it.
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chmeredith at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 4:02 PM

Post #19 of 50 (2429 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Greg Oliver <oliver.greg [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Greg Oliver <oliver.greg [at] gmail> wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Christopher Meredith
>> <chmeredith [at] gmail> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Christopher Meredith <chmeredith [at] gmail>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout [at] gmail> wrote:
>>>>> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >> On 2/26/2010 16:09, Dean Collins wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Does anyone know how Microsoft get their media center tv guide
>>>>> >> information?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Microsoft licenses it, and provides it for free to users who have
>>>>> >> purchased
>>>>> >> Windows MCE, for use specifically and only with Windows MCE. It's
>>>>> >> basically
>>>>> >> the same thing as SchedulesDirect has set up with TMS, but it is paid
>>>>> >> for in
>>>>> >> the cost of the program, rather than yearly dues.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > There is a program out there to convert the ms epg format to xmltv
>>>>> > format. Can't recall the name...
>>>>>
>>>>> It's called mc2xml and I've written up a MythTV howto guide here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://monopedilos.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=mc2xml
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been using this script and method, unmodified, since summer 2008.
>>>>> It's wonderful. And since this has come up in the past, there is
>>>>> nothing illegal about this AT ALL. At worst, it's a violation of the
>>>>> EULA of Windows MCE, but that's only even relevant if you have
>>>>> accepted an MCE EULA. Otherwise, there is nothing WHATSOEVER illegal
>>>>> about this.
>>>>
>>>> IANAL so I can't speak to that but that also hasn't stopped many a company
>>>> from dictating what you can and cannot do with the data they provide you for
>>>> specific uses.
>>>
>>> I'm not a lawyer either, but I will be in August. ;-) And companies
>>> can restrict the use of data they provide, but they do so in the form
>>> of licences. The MCE EULA (which is a form of a contract which you
>>> must ACCEPT to be bound to) says that you can only access their
>>> servers with MCE. But the data is not copyrighted (at least not by
>>> Microsoft or Zap2It) and as long as you have not accepted the MCE
>>> EULA, there's nothing to violate.
>>>
>>> Bill mentioned morality. At best, the only negative argument about
>>> morality I can think of is that Microsoft doesn't want people using
>>> its data without paying for a MS product and someone might condier it
>>> immoral to use data contrary to the wishes of its provider. If you
>>> fall into this camp, you should seriously consider whether it's even
>>> morally right to use a homebrew DVR software at all, something the
>>> content providers clearly do not want you doing.
>>>
>>> At the end of the day, the MCE servers are open, unencrypted, and
>>> freely accessible to anyone. Using mc2xml does not violate copyright
>>> and does not implicate the DMCA. At worst, it's a violation of a
>>> contract of adhesion (the MCE EULA), but ONLY if you have accepted it.
>>> Even then, it is practically unenforceable.
>>
>> I just setup my vista virtual machine (laptop supplied) MCE for NZ and
>> postal code 2022 in Aukland. It all looked well, packet captures
>> showed it was going to data.tvdownload.microsoft.com, and them came
>> back and said guide data is not available for my location, so I guess
>> MCE does not provide the EPG for NZ.. Unless there is a better postal
>> code to try?? I'm not from there...
>
> The EULA also stated they can start charging or change pricing for EPG
> data at any time with 30 days written prior notice..

Right. But just like every other provision of the EULA, it's
meaningless unless you agree to be bound by it.
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raymond at wagnerrp

Feb 26, 2010, 4:42 PM

Post #20 of 50 (2395 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On 2/26/2010 19:01, Christopher Meredith wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Raymond Wagner<raymond [at] wagnerrp> wrote:
>
>> On 2/26/2010 17:19, Christopher Meredith wrote:
>>
>>> At the end of the day, the MCE servers are open, unencrypted, and
>>> freely accessible to anyone.
>>>
>>>
>> Are they? Mc2xml is closed source, so you can't tell what it's doing short
>> of watching it with a network monitor.
>>
> MCE and mc2xml aren't the same thing. My point was that using mc2xml
> doesn't require "hacking" or spoofing the MCE servers to get the data.
> If MS wants to make sure no one else can user their servers, they
> could do that. But they don't, so no laws are broken by using
> something like mc2xml. Whether the author of mc2xml is spying on me is
> another matter. If that concerns you, by all means, don't use it.
>

This has nothing to do with the author spying on you, it has to do with
what the program is doing internally to access the Microsoft servers.
Being closed source, you have no way of telling whether it 'spoofs' the
servers, aside from actually watching the packet data as it is
communicating with them.

At the very least, it is unauthorized access to a computer system. If
there is any sort of authentication going on, Microsoft would have a
fairly winnable court case if they so cared.
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Feb 26, 2010, 4:55 PM

Post #21 of 50 (2402 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On 02/26/2010 05:19 PM, Christopher Meredith wrote:
> I'm not a lawyer either, but I will be in August. ;-)

Then you should know better than to give legal advice on a mailing list.

> And companies
> can restrict the use of data they provide, but they do so in the form
> of licences. The MCE EULA (which is a form of a contract which you
> must ACCEPT to be bound to) says that you can only access their
> servers with MCE. But the data is not copyrighted (at least not by
> Microsoft or Zap2It)

Wrong. TMS holds copyrights on a some of the information (which goes
well beyond pure facts) provided.

Mike
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lists at forevermore

Feb 26, 2010, 5:19 PM

Post #22 of 50 (2401 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

Christopher Meredith wrote:
> I'm not a lawyer either, but I will be in August. ;-) And companies
> can restrict the use of data they provide, but they do so in the form
> of licences. The MCE EULA (which is a form of a contract which you
> must ACCEPT to be bound to) says that you can only access their
> servers with MCE. But the data is not copyrighted (at least not by
> Microsoft or Zap2It) and as long as you have not accepted the MCE
> EULA, there's nothing to violate.

TMS claims a very strong copyright on the data they license to MS, SD,
and others. They employ a huge staff of copy writers to fill in things
like those program descriptions, which makes them a creative work that
can be protected by copyright law.

I won't get into anything specific about mc2xml, but I can assure you
that MS and TMS don't think too kindly about unauthorized users
accessing the system. Some of us at SD don't like it either because it
propagates the sentiment that people in open source community have no
respect for intellectual property. There is an inexpensive and
completely legitimate alternative to mc2xml, so why not use it and
support the community behind the software you like so much?

One other thing you may not have considered -- the servers you're
downloading data from likely have a terms of use attached to them
(separate from the MCE EULA) that restricts access only to authorized
programs. It would very much be within their legal right to go after
unauthorized users for "hacking". I'm not saying that it would stick
(or that they would even bother), but it wouldn't surprise me.

-Chris
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jedi at mishnet

Feb 26, 2010, 6:32 PM

Post #23 of 50 (2365 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 05:19:45PM -0800, Chris Petersen wrote:
> Christopher Meredith wrote:
[deletia]
> I won't get into anything specific about mc2xml, but I can assure
> you that MS and TMS don't think too kindly about unauthorized users
> accessing the system. Some of us at SD don't like it either because
> it propagates the sentiment that people in open source community
> have no respect for intellectual property. There is an inexpensive

I was under the impression that this fellow already has standing
to use the data in question. He has it because he "owns" a copy of a
product that includes access to that data as a part of a bundle.

However, I agree that he should just buy the real thing direct for
himself because it's not terribly expensive to begin with.

> and completely legitimate alternative to mc2xml, so why not use it
> and support the community behind the software you like so much?

[deletia]

I'm surprised the discussion went on as long as it did without anyone
objecting.
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chmeredith at gmail

Feb 26, 2010, 6:33 PM

Post #24 of 50 (2365 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Michael T. Dean
<mtdean [at] thirdcontact> wrote:
> On 02/26/2010 05:19 PM, Christopher Meredith wrote:
>>
>> I'm not a lawyer either, but I will be in August. ;-)
>
> Then you should know better than to give legal advice on a mailing list.

I'm not giving legal advice, I'm providing legal information. There's
an important difference. There was some backlash on the Mythbuntu
forums regarding mc2xml in which it was claimed that mc2xml is
"illegal" because it violates the TOS for MCE. That simply isn't true
and that's the point I was making.

>> And companies
>> can restrict the use of data they provide, but they do so in the form
>> of licences. The MCE EULA (which is a form of a contract which you
>> must ACCEPT to be bound to) says that you can only access their
>> servers with MCE. But the data is not copyrighted (at least not by
>> Microsoft or Zap2It)
>
> Wrong. TMS holds copyrights on a some of the information (which goes well
> beyond pure facts) provided.

Yes, and I never said otherwise. Program titles and times are not
copyrightable but show synopses are. My point was that neither Zap2It
(remote source) nor Microsoft (immediate source) are the copyright
holders and since these are the only entities that would even know who
is accessing the data, the chances of it being a problem are slim to
zero. Technical copyright violation? Perhaps. But you would be
surprised how many everyday activities are technical copyright
violations. Let me put it this way: a DVR program with an official
plugin like MythArchive can't really complain about accessing
unsecured EPG data.
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Feb 26, 2010, 6:51 PM

Post #25 of 50 (2361 views)
Permalink

Re: MS media center [In reply to]

On 02/26/2010 09:32 PM, jedi wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 05:19:45PM -0800, Chris Petersen wrote:
>
>> Christopher Meredith wrote:
>>
> [deletia]
>
>> I won't get into anything specific about mc2xml, but I can assure
>> you that MS and TMS don't think too kindly about unauthorized users
>> accessing the system. Some of us at SD don't like it either because
>> it propagates the sentiment that people in open source community
>> have no respect for intellectual property. There is an inexpensive
>>
> I was under the impression that this fellow already has standing
> to use the data in question. He has it because he "owns" a copy of a
> product that includes access to that data as a part of a bundle.
>

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-media-center/privacy-windows7-terms-of-service.aspx
-----
Windows Media Center electronic programming guide terms of service
...
The Microsoft software product identified above, which includes computer
software and may include associated media, printed materials, "online"
or electronic documentation, and Internet-based services (the "Product")...
...
Use of the Electronic Programming Guide Service. The EPG may only be
accessed with an authorized personal computer using the Product.
-----

and these go way back--here's for older versions:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/evaluation/privacy/default.mspx

> However, I agree that he should just buy the real thing direct for
> himself because it's not terribly expensive to begin with.
>

Yeah, plus it helps support the community, and it's definitely
legal/licensed/... for use with MythTV. And--for those of us who care
about that kind of thing--it shows respect for the great deal of time,
effort, and expense that TMS goes through to compile all this data
without which MythTV is useless.

Mike
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