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pstehlik at sophics

Nov 28, 2009, 5:18 PM

Post #1 of 23 (3749 views)
Permalink
cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs

Hi all,

I've got two cards - a DVB-S and a DVB-S2. Each is connected to its own
LNB so they're independent of each other tuning-wise etc. The Card#1
(DVB-S) can receive X channels while the Card#2 (DVB-S2) can receive X+Y
channels (Y channels being DVB-S2 only). This is actually simplified a
bit since Card#2 is in fact connected to DiSEqC switch and can receive X
+Y+Z channels (Z channels are those from three other LNBs) but for the
rest of the story this simplification shouldn't matter, hopefully.

Since I didn't know how to map the video sources to inputs smartly I
created two independent sources - Source1 and Source2, mapped to Card#1
and Card#2 inputs respectively. I think it would be much better if I
could say that there is source for X channels and source for Y channels
and then set that Card#1 can use SourceX and Card#2 can use both SourceX
and SourceY but I didn't know how to arrange that so I ended up with
Source1 and Source2 where Source2 largely duplicates Source1 channels.

This has the annoying disadvantage that if I need to tune to a new
channel (or fix tuning to a channel that changed its identifications on
the satellite) I have to scan and tune twice, first for Source1 and then
for Source2. Everything regarding channels in "SourceX" is duplicated in
the database. Is this correct approach at all?

Also, as I use multi-recording with 5 simultaneous recordings there are
actually 10 virtual tuners. Tuners 1-5 for Card#1 and tuners 6-10 for
Card#2.

As the channels on both cards are largely identical I set them the same
channums and callsigns across both sources so when you're using Live TV
you can use the channum you know and whichever tuner is free it'll show
you the channel you're after.

However, there are two weird issues that might even be bugs. Please help
me figure out if this is just wrong configuration or if I need to report
it to Trac. Both are LiveTV related.

First, whenever I am browsing through the channels that are duplicate
(available on both cards) then no matter what channel I choose the next
time I use the ArrowUp/ArrowDown for browsing the LiveTV channels it'll
start on the first channel.

Example: there are channels with channums "1" to "9" available on both
cards (and duplicate on both sources etc). I browse with the ArrowUp to
the channel "5", press Enter, and watch channel "5". Now if I press
ArrowUp it will not offer the channel "6" but channel "2" instead
because it sort of reset its position(?), or perhaps because it is using
the index from the other free card? Please note that I have the "Browse
on all inputs" switch enabled. Also please note that this problem
doesn't occur if I watch any of those SourceY channels, i.e. available
on the Card#2 only. Then the "index of current channel" is correct and
ArrowUp/Down will offer the next/previous channel correctly.

Anyway, this is still sort of "cosmetic" issue. The second one is a
serious one. Since I have the "try to avoid conflicts live TV with
recording" switch enabled then recording starts from tuner1 (i.e.
Card#1) while LiveTV starts from the last tuner (tuner10, and Card#2).
Now if Card#1 is recording I can watch anything I want using liveTV on
Card#2, but if Card#2 is recording something then LiveTV is restricted
to only those channels in the multiplex the Card#2 is currently
recording even though the Card#1 is empty and the Browser of LiveTV
allows me to select any of the Card#1 channels.

Example:
A recording starts on a channel in multiplex "A" and Myth picks Card#1
(tuner #1) for it. Another recording starts on a channel in multiplex
"B" so Myth picks Card#2 (tuner #6). Now LiveTV is restricted to just
multiplexes "A" and "B", that's OK.
But after the first recording on Card#1 ends the LiveTV is free to watch
any channel on the Card#1 so it offers all channels from all
multiplexes. However, if I select any channel from any multiplex
different from the currently recorded multiplex "B" Myth sort of ignores
my input and falls back to first channel of the currently recorded
multiplex "B".

In short it looks like Myth is unable to use the Card#1 for LiveTV but I
can't believe it so I suspect that perhaps the duplicate channums
confused the system for picking up a free tunner or that there is a bug
somewhere.

Please advise. Thanks in advance.

Petr


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george_mythusers at mari1938

Nov 29, 2009, 8:26 AM

Post #2 of 23 (3675 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

On 11/28/2009 07:18 PM, Petr Stehlik wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've got two cards - a DVB-S and a DVB-S2. Each is connected to its own
> LNB so they're independent of each other tuning-wise etc. The Card#1
> (DVB-S) can receive X channels while the Card#2 (DVB-S2) can receive X+Y
> channels (Y channels being DVB-S2 only). This is actually simplified a
> bit since Card#2 is in fact connected to DiSEqC switch and can receive X
> +Y+Z channels (Z channels are those from three other LNBs) but for the
> rest of the story this simplification shouldn't matter, hopefully.
>
> Since I didn't know how to map the video sources to inputs smartly I
> created two independent sources - Source1 and Source2, mapped to Card#1
> and Card#2 inputs respectively. I think it would be much better if I
> could say that there is source for X channels and source for Y channels
> and then set that Card#1 can use SourceX and Card#2 can use both SourceX
> and SourceY but I didn't know how to arrange that so I ended up with
> Source1 and Source2 where Source2 largely duplicates Source1 channels.
>
> This has the annoying disadvantage that if I need to tune to a new
> channel (or fix tuning to a channel that changed its identifications on
> the satellite) I have to scan and tune twice, first for Source1 and then
> for Source2. Everything regarding channels in "SourceX" is duplicated in
> the database. Is this correct approach at all?
>
[deleted]

I'm in the US, and am spoiled by the simplicity of Schedules Direct, so
I can't say I'm familiar with the exact steps required for your
situation, but I'm pretty certain it's possible.

Assuming your two cards are both receiving from the same service
provider, I'm also pretty sure you should not setup two independent
sources, as you will run into the problems you mentioned.

I have 2 cards also - one receives OTA broadcasts via antenna, and
another receives analog video from a satellite settop box. I have one
source, but I have two lineups with Schedules Direct. Most of the OTA
channels are duplicated on the satellite lineup, and I just associate
the OTA card with the OTA lineup for my region from Schedules Direct,
and the Satellite lineup is linked to my old analog card. It all just
seems to work fine.

If you post who your satellite service provider is, I'm sure someone
else on the list can help you out.
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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 2, 2009, 8:22 AM

Post #3 of 23 (3637 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

George Mari píše v Ne 29. 11. 2009 v 10:26 -0600:
> Assuming your two cards are both receiving from the same service
> provider, I'm also pretty sure you should not setup two independent
> sources, as you will run into the problems you mentioned.
>
> I have 2 cards also - one receives OTA broadcasts via antenna, and
> another receives analog video from a satellite settop box. I have one
> source, but I have two lineups with Schedules Direct. Most of the OTA
> channels are duplicated on the satellite lineup, and I just associate
> the OTA card with the OTA lineup for my region from Schedules Direct,
> and the Satellite lineup is linked to my old analog card. It all just
> seems to work fine.
>
> If you post who your satellite service provider is, I'm sure someone
> else on the list can help you out.

It's Astra 3A but I don't think it's important. I am more interested in
the "wiring" inside of the mythsetup (Input Connections) when one card
is more capable than the other one so it can receive more channels. If
there is just one video source then I don't quite see how to prevent the
less capable card tuning to all the channels in the video source.

I should try changing it to one source and see for myself but before
I'll break all the stuff (tuning the sat channels back will take me
several hours of manual work) I thought I would ask here.

Anyway, I am going to buy some DVB-T tuners that will further complicate
the setup (they can receive only a subset of the DVB-S channels).

My goal is still the same: in LiveTV pressing a certain channum should
always find a free tuner that can tune and play that program (no matter
if its DVB-S2, DVB-S or DVB-T). Also when browsing across all the
channels on all tuners pressing the OK on any channel should again find
a free tuner and tune&play that. So far it does not work that way and
the question remains if this is a bug in configuration or in Myth
itself.

Petr


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eric at lisaneric

Dec 2, 2009, 8:44 AM

Post #4 of 23 (3637 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

2009/12/2 Petr Stehlik <pstehlik [at] sophics>:
> It's Astra 3A but I don't think it's important. I am more interested in
> the "wiring" inside of the mythsetup (Input Connections) when one card
> is more capable than the other one so it can receive more channels. If
> there is just one video source then I don't quite see how to prevent the
> less capable card tuning to all the channels in the video source.

You need to have separate video sources for each channel set.

I have Comcast cable as my only input but I have to define it as three
separate video sources, once for an HDHR, once for a PVR-150, and once
for a firewire connection to a STB. The channels available to each
type of tuner are very different even though ultimately they're all
reading from the same cable.

Eric
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knowledgejunkie at gmail

Dec 2, 2009, 6:20 PM

Post #5 of 23 (3615 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

2009/12/2 Petr Stehlik <pstehlik [at] sophics>:
> George Mari pĂ­ĹĄe v Ne 29. 11. 2009 v 10:26 -0600:
>> Assuming your two cards are both receiving from the same service
>> provider, I'm also pretty sure you should not setup two independent
>> sources, as you will run into the problems you mentioned.
>>
>> I have 2 cards also - one receives OTA broadcasts via antenna, and
>> another receives analog video from a satellite settop box.  I have one
>> source, but I have two lineups with Schedules Direct.  Most of the OTA
>> channels are duplicated on the satellite lineup, and I just associate
>> the OTA card with the OTA lineup for my region from Schedules Direct,
>> and the Satellite lineup is linked to my old analog card.  It all just
>> seems to work fine.
>>
>> If you post who your satellite service provider is, I'm sure someone
>> else on the list can help you out.
>
> It's Astra 3A but I don't think it's important. I am more interested in
> the "wiring" inside of the mythsetup (Input Connections) when one card
> is more capable than the other one so it can receive more channels. If
> there is just one video source then I don't quite see how to prevent the
> less capable card tuning to all the channels in the video source.

You will need to configure two video sources, and configure each of
the card inputs separately on the Input Connections screen.

If one input receives a subset of channels compared to another input
(even if the channels received on both inputs are transmitted using
the same method - analog/DVB-T/DVB-S/ATSC/QAM etc) you need to ensure
that you have separate video sources that contain only those channels
available for the intended tuner. This will prevent MythTV from trying
to schedule recordings or watch LiveTV on channels that are not
available on an input.

> I should try changing it to one source and see for myself but before
> I'll break all the stuff (tuning the sat channels back will take me
> several hours of manual work) I thought I would ask here.

Good idea. I comes up fairly regularly, but sitll requires a fair
amount of configuration, especially for non-Schedules Direct users.

> Anyway, I am going to buy some DVB-T tuners that will further complicate
> the setup (they can receive only a subset of the DVB-S channels).

Again, configure a new video source for just the DVB-T channels. If
all DVB-T tuners can receive the same group of channels, you only need
to configure a single video source and connect it to all of the DVB-T
tuners in mythtv-setup.

> My goal is still the same: in LiveTV pressing a certain channum should
> always find a free tuner that can tune and play that program (no matter
> if its DVB-S2, DVB-S or DVB-T). Also when browsing across all the
> channels on all tuners pressing the OK on any channel should again find
> a free tuner and tune&play that. So far it does not work that way and
> the question remains if this is a bug in configuration or in Myth
> itself.

For scheduling:

MythTV needs 'equivalent' channels (broadcasting the same station)
available on all video sources to have the same callsign in order to
make intelligent scheduling decisions across tuners. Obtaining
listings from the same source (SD/XMLTV/EIT etc) for all video
sources/channels will ensure that the scheduler uses the same
programme data during scheduling runs. Mixing listings from different
sources for 'equivalent' channels can result in unexpected behaviour.

For LiveTV browsing and EPG viewing:

Giving 'equivalent' channels on all video sources the same channel
number (channum) and name will group channels together so that MythTV
can 'find' the channel on all tuners and allocate it to the next best
LiveTV tuner if required. It will also hide multiple copies of the
'equivalent' channels which can greatly condense the EPG.

Cheers,
Nick

--
Nick Morrott

MythTV Official wiki: http://mythtv.org/wiki/
MythTV users list archive: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users

"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 3, 2009, 3:33 AM

Post #6 of 23 (3612 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Nick Morrott píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 02:20 +0000:
> You will need to configure two video sources, and configure each of
> the card inputs separately on the Input Connections screen.

Thanks for this answer. So I've got it configured correctly. It's just a
bit of pain to scan for (new) channels when it has to be done twice (for
each source separately even though they point to the same satellite).

> For LiveTV browsing and EPG viewing:
>
> Giving 'equivalent' channels on all video sources the same channel
> number (channum) and name will group channels together so that MythTV
> can 'find' the channel on all tuners and allocate it to the next best
> LiveTV tuner if required. It will also hide multiple copies of the
> 'equivalent' channels which can greatly condense the EPG.

It does not work properly and that was the main reason why I posted the
initial question here:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/410801?search_string=cards%20vs%20sources;#410801
See the last example.

I think you've encouraged me enough to create a bug report in the trac.

Thanks

Petr


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mtdean at thirdcontact

Dec 3, 2009, 9:03 AM

Post #7 of 23 (3609 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

On 12/03/2009 06:33 AM, Petr Stehlik wrote:
> Nick Morrott píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 02:20 +0000:
>
>> For LiveTV browsing and EPG viewing:
>>
>> Giving 'equivalent' channels on all video sources the same channel
>> number (channum) and name will group channels together so that MythTV
>> can 'find' the channel on all tuners and allocate it to the next best
>> LiveTV tuner if required. It will also hide multiple copies of the
>> 'equivalent' channels which can greatly condense the EPG.
>>
> It does not work properly and that was the main reason why I posted the
> initial question here:
> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/410801?search_string=cards%20vs%20sources;#410801
> See the last example.
>
> I think you've encouraged me enough to create a bug report in the trac.

It's already there.

Quoting (from your original post):

> Example: there are channels with channums "1" to "9" available on both
> cards (and duplicate on both sources etc). I browse with the ArrowUp to
> the channel "5", press Enter, and watch channel "5". Now if I press
> ArrowUp it will not offer the channel "6" but channel "2" instead
> because it sort of reset its position(?)

That's http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/6208 and
http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/7197 . Either apply the patch at
http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/22346 to your build (assuming
0.22-fixes) or wait for it to be committed to -fixes.

Mike
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newbury at mandamus

Dec 3, 2009, 10:24 AM

Post #8 of 23 (3600 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Nick Morrott wrote:
> 2009/12/2 Petr Stehlik <pstehlik [at] sophics>:
>> George Mari pĂ­ĹĄe v Ne 29. 11. 2009 v 10:26 -0600:
>>> Assuming your two cards are both receiving from the same service
>>> provider, I'm also pretty sure you should not setup two independent
>>> sources, as you will run into the problems you mentioned.
>>>
>>> I have 2 cards also - one receives OTA broadcasts via antenna, and
>>> another receives analog video from a satellite settop box. I have one
>>> source, but I have two lineups with Schedules Direct. Most of the OTA
>>> channels are duplicated on the satellite lineup, and I just associate
>>> the OTA card with the OTA lineup for my region from Schedules Direct,
>>> and the Satellite lineup is linked to my old analog card. It all just
>>> seems to work fine.
>>>
>>> If you post who your satellite service provider is, I'm sure someone
>>> else on the list can help you out.
>> It's Astra 3A but I don't think it's important. I am more interested in
>> the "wiring" inside of the mythsetup (Input Connections) when one card
>> is more capable than the other one so it can receive more channels. If
>> there is just one video source then I don't quite see how to prevent the
>> less capable card tuning to all the channels in the video source.
>
> You will need to configure two video sources, and configure each of
> the card inputs separately on the Input Connections screen.
>
> If one input receives a subset of channels compared to another input
> (even if the channels received on both inputs are transmitted using
> the same method - analog/DVB-T/DVB-S/ATSC/QAM etc) you need to ensure
> that you have separate video sources that contain only those channels
> available for the intended tuner. This will prevent MythTV from trying
> to schedule recordings or watch LiveTV on channels that are not
> available on an input.
>
>> I should try changing it to one source and see for myself but before
>> I'll break all the stuff (tuning the sat channels back will take me
>> several hours of manual work) I thought I would ask here.
>
> Good idea. I comes up fairly regularly, but sitll requires a fair
> amount of configuration, especially for non-Schedules Direct users.
>
>> Anyway, I am going to buy some DVB-T tuners that will further complicate
>> the setup (they can receive only a subset of the DVB-S channels).
>
> Again, configure a new video source for just the DVB-T channels. If
> all DVB-T tuners can receive the same group of channels, you only need
> to configure a single video source and connect it to all of the DVB-T
> tuners in mythtv-setup.
>
>> My goal is still the same: in LiveTV pressing a certain channum should
>> always find a free tuner that can tune and play that program (no matter
>> if its DVB-S2, DVB-S or DVB-T). Also when browsing across all the
>> channels on all tuners pressing the OK on any channel should again find
>> a free tuner and tune&play that. So far it does not work that way and
>> the question remains if this is a bug in configuration or in Myth
>> itself.
>
> For scheduling:
>
> MythTV needs 'equivalent' channels (broadcasting the same station)
> available on all video sources to have the same callsign in order to
> make intelligent scheduling decisions across tuners. Obtaining
> listings from the same source (SD/XMLTV/EIT etc) for all video
> sources/channels will ensure that the scheduler uses the same
> programme data during scheduling runs. Mixing listings from different
> sources for 'equivalent' channels can result in unexpected behaviour.
>
> For LiveTV browsing and EPG viewing:
>
> Giving 'equivalent' channels on all video sources the same channel
> number (channum) and name will group channels together so that MythTV
> can 'find' the channel on all tuners and allocate it to the next best
> LiveTV tuner if required. It will also hide multiple copies of the
> 'equivalent' channels which can greatly condense the EPG.
>
> Cheers,
> Nick
>
To follow on from Nick's explanation and to make things clear,

mythtv uses chanid internally as a key for ONE channel.
mythtv uses the callsign to determine if chanid's are equivalent for
recording scheduling, and
channum can be set to whatever WE want so that the channel shows up in
the EPG where we want, and using a name/number we recognize.

You can use priorities to differentiate between channels which have the
same channum for recording purposes.
But you MUST use separate sources for different channel groupings
notwithstanding that some channels are available on more than one source.

I'm not sure that you can exactly do what you want, as I am not sure how
the code collapses 'equivalent' channels, as Nick notes. However, you
can probably get very close to the desired state if you give the
equivalent channels near equivalent channum designations.

For example, if you get 2,4,6,8,10 from OTA and 6,8,10 from digital
cable as 206,208 and 210, giving the latter a channum of 6A,8A and 10A
would list them in the EPG below/above their equals. Internally, their
chanids differ and myth would know how to tune them accordingly. And an
in-use channel/tuner combo would show in the EPG.
Not QUITE what you want, but close. Then again, do a backup of the
database, and then adjust the callsigns and channums and see what
happens. Myth may collapse the listings but still know that more than
one tuner is available for any given channel. Let us know how it goes.
Report here and make changes to the wiki, please.

Geoff




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I may wish to offend you again in the future.

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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 3, 2009, 12:05 PM

Post #9 of 23 (3602 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Michael T. Dean píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 12:03 -0500:
> > http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/410801?search_string=cards%20vs%20sources;#410801
> > See the last example.
> >
> > I think you've encouraged me enough to create a bug report in the trac.
>
> That's http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/6208 and
> http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/7197 . Either apply the patch at
> http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/22346 to your build (assuming
> 0.22-fixes) or wait for it to be committed to -fixes.

Mike,

the 22346 has already been committed to -fixes (not sure when). And it
does not fix the issue I am talking about here.

The changeset's comment says "This problem was only seen if the "Browse
all channels" option was turned off" while I have it turned on.

I have been playing with various switches that could be affecting that
and now I am running into some kind of a busy loop where mythbacked and
mysql both hog the CPU at 100%. That's worse than before :-)

Petr


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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 3, 2009, 12:08 PM

Post #10 of 23 (3599 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

R. G. Newbury píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 13:24 -0500:

> For example, if you get 2,4,6,8,10 from OTA and 6,8,10 from digital
> cable as 206,208 and 210, giving the latter a channum of 6A,8A and 10A
> would list them in the EPG below/above their equals. Internally, their
> chanids differ and myth would know how to tune them accordingly. And an
> in-use channel/tuner combo would show in the EPG.
> Not QUITE what you want, but close.

What's wrong with identical channums? Why making them slightly different
(6, 6A, 6B, 6C...) and then forcing the user to try each one until they
find one that works (or until they run into a deadlock I have just
experienced). Shouldn't the computer know better (using the chanids)
which tuner is free and could be used?

Petr


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mtdean at thirdcontact

Dec 3, 2009, 12:35 PM

Post #11 of 23 (3589 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

On 12/03/2009 03:05 PM, Petr Stehlik wrote:
> Michael T. Dean píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 12:03 -0500:
>
>>> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/410801?search_string=cards%20vs%20sources;#410801
>>> See the last example.
>>>
>>> I think you've encouraged me enough to create a bug report in the trac.
>>>
>> That's http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/6208 and
>> http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/7197 . Either apply the patch at
>> http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/22346 to your build (assuming
>> 0.22-fixes) or wait for it to be committed to -fixes.
>>
> the 22346 has already been committed to -fixes (not sure when). And it
> does not fix the issue I am talking about here.
>
> The changeset's comment says "This problem was only seen if the "Browse
> all channels" option was turned off" while I have it turned on.
>
> I have been playing with various switches that could be affecting that
> and now I am running into some kind of a busy loop where mythbacked and
> mysql both hog the CPU at 100%. That's worse than before :-)

Ah, yeah. You're right. That change went in just before we branched
0.22-fixes.

Another case of too many settings with too many combinations to test,
probably. So the hard part will likely be figuring out how to make it
reproducible. (Then again, no one ever confirmed that it worked for
#6208 , so I don't know if Shane was able to reproduce it and verify the
fix or if he just figured someone would let him know if it didn't.)

Mike
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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 3, 2009, 1:02 PM

Post #12 of 23 (3597 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Michael T. Dean píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 15:35 -0500:
> > I have been playing with various switches that could be affecting that
> > and now I am running into some kind of a busy loop where mythbacked and
> > mysql both hog the CPU at 100%. That's worse than before :-)
>
> Another case of too many settings with too many combinations to test,
> probably. So the hard part will likely be figuring out how to make it
> reproducible.

It's actually not that hard. If you want the Live TV to work normally
you definitely want to (in TV Settings -> General and Playback OSD):
1) Avoid conflicts between live TV and scheduled shows
2) Allow live TV to move scheduled shows
3) Always use Browse mode in live TV
4) Browse all channels

BTW, I do have the same settings as I had before but now it's getting
stuck while before it was just ignoring my channum choice in the Browse
mode. This is probably because I went ahead and entered my desired
channum directly when in live TV (not using the Browse mode). I've got
the channel I wanted (it correctly used the free tuner) but now the
Browse mode goes crazy - whenever I use ArrowUp/Down the CPU usage goes
to 100%.

I'll try to run the mythbacked with some debugging as soon as my current
recordings finish.

Right now the steps to reproduce would be: two cards, same channels get
same channums and callsigns. With the above mentioned switches enabled
start recording on card#1, then another recording on card#2, stop
recording on card#1 and enter live TV. Browse mode will not let you go
to card#1 and if you enter the channum that forces live TV to use card#1
then as soon as you try using the Browse mode it all gets stuck with CPU
at 100%. But maybe it's even easier to reproduce, will try and report.

Petr


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ylee at pobox

Dec 3, 2009, 1:04 PM

Post #13 of 23 (3596 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Petr Stehlik <pstehlik [at] sophics> says:
> What's wrong with identical channums?

[...]

> Shouldn't the computer know better (using the chanids) which tuner
> is free and could be used?

That's a fair point, and a feature I agree would be useful, but that's
not how MythTV works now from a tuning perspective. Until then, I
prefer giving different channel numbers (I have long used +1000 to
over-the-air) to identical channels on different sources as a way of
a) quickly distinguishing which source a channel is on, and b) be able
to jump to a specific channel on a specific soure if I should so
desire.

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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 3, 2009, 1:30 PM

Post #14 of 23 (3594 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Petr Stehlik píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 22:02 +0100:
> > > I have been playing with various switches that could be affecting that
> > > and now I am running into some kind of a busy loop where mythbacked and
> > > mysql both hog the CPU at 100%. That's worse than before :-)
> >
> > Another case of too many settings with too many combinations to test,
> > probably. So the hard part will likely be figuring out how to make it
> > reproducible.
>
> It's actually not that hard. If you want the Live TV to work normally
> you definitely want to (in TV Settings -> General and Playback OSD):
> 1) Avoid conflicts between live TV and scheduled shows
> 2) Allow live TV to move scheduled shows
> 3) Always use Browse mode in live TV
> 4) Browse all channels

This is getting interesting:

With "Always use Browse mode in live TV" DISABLED the channel changing
works _correctly_ and allows watching all channels using the free tuner.
When you press ArrowUp/Down the channel is changed immediately.

With that switch ENABLED when you press ArrowUp/Down and want to browse
through the channums that are available on both cards it offers you only
those channels that could be recorded from the BUSY card (i.e. it locks
you to the multiplex that is being recorded on the busy card, ignoring
there's a completely free card).

It looks like the browse mode is confused by those duplicate channums
and doesn't realize that there is a free card available with the same
channums. Internally in Myth itself picking a free tuner works correctly
when one avoids the Browse mode. This is actually good news.

I think I am getting closer to being able to create an useful bug
report.

Petr


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eric at lisaneric

Dec 3, 2009, 1:41 PM

Post #15 of 23 (3597 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Yeechang Lee <ylee [at] pobox> wrote:
> Petr Stehlik <pstehlik [at] sophics> says:
>> What's wrong with identical channums?
>
> [...]
>
>> Shouldn't the computer know better (using the chanids) which tuner
>> is free and could be used?
>
> That's a fair point, and a feature I agree would be useful, but that's
> not how MythTV works now from a tuning perspective.

Isn't it?

I use the same channel numbers for all of my sources and have never
had a problem with LiveTV finding an appropriate tuner.

Then again, I don't use LiveTV very often.

Eric
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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 3, 2009, 1:54 PM

Post #16 of 23 (3596 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Petr Stehlik píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 22:30 +0100:
> This is getting interesting:
>
> With "Always use Browse mode in live TV" DISABLED the channel changing
> works _correctly_ and allows watching all channels using the free tuner.
> When you press ArrowUp/Down the channel is changed immediately.

after a while of playing I've got it to a state where it's locked on one
multiplex and ignores the other free card again. So I was happy too
early.

ChannelBase(10): Looking for startchannel 'NextChannel 0' on input 'DVBInput #1'
ChannelBase(10) Warning: Setting start channel 'NextChannel 0' failed,
selected to '6' on input 'DVBInput #3' instead.

Any suggestion how to debug it or what to provide to let it debug others
is appreciated.

Petr


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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 3, 2009, 2:07 PM

Post #17 of 23 (3594 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Eric Sharkey píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 16:41 -0500:
> >> Shouldn't the computer know better (using the chanids) which tuner
> >> is free and could be used?
> >
> > That's a fair point, and a feature I agree would be useful, but that's
> > not how MythTV works now from a tuning perspective.
>
> I use the same channel numbers for all of my sources and have never
> had a problem with LiveTV finding an appropriate tuner.

My most current findings are that as soon as the tuner live TV would
like to use (either first one or, if the "Avoid conflicts between live
TV and scheduling" is enabled the last one) is busy then live TV doesn't
go for next free tuner but gets locked onto the channel that is being
currently recorded. It doesn't even allow watching the other channels in
the multiplex (multiple recording set to 5 here).

No wait, this happens only for ArrowUp/Down. Entering channums directly
works properly.

> ChannelBase(10): Looking for startchannel 'NextChannel 0' on input 'DVBInput #1'

I think the problem lies in this zero channel - the live TV does not
know the current channel so the ArrowUp/Down does not work.

I am clearly facing a couple of problems at once. I should probably
first focus on why Myth doesn't know the current channum.

Petr


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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 3, 2009, 2:26 PM

Post #18 of 23 (3582 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Petr Stehlik píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 23:07 +0100:

> No wait, this happens only for ArrowUp/Down. Entering channums directly
> works properly.

actually not even those. When both cards are recording then live TV does
not let me go to the other card using channum from the multiplex that is
being recorded on the other card.

The only moment when the live TV works normally is when there the tuner
it wants to use (first or last) is free from any recordings. When the
tuner is busy it's a pain and there are multiple bugs including browse
mode getting stuck with top CPU usage, wrong current channel (zero)
making the up/down arrows hard to use and switching to another free
tuner seems impossible.

2009-12-03 23:17:47.607 ChannelBase(10): Looking for startchannel '1' on input 'DVBInput #1'
2009-12-03 23:17:47.631 ChannelBase(10): IsTunable(DVBInput #3,1) Channel is valid, but tuner is busy on different multiplex (479 != 477)
2009-12-03 23:17:47.637 DVBSH(/dev/dvb/adapter3/frontend0): RemoveListener(0xa4c5b5b8) -- begin
2009-12-03 23:17:47.640 DVBSH(/dev/dvb/adapter3/frontend0): RemoveListener(0xa4c5b5b8) -- locked
2009-12-03 23:17:47.641 DVBSH(/dev/dvb/adapter3/frontend0): RemoveListener(0xa4c5b5b8) -- end
2009-12-03 23:17:47.695 ChannelBase(10) Warning: Setting start channel '1' failed,
selected to '6' on input 'DVBInput #3' instead.
2009-12-03 23:17:47.771 TVRec(10): On same multiplex

I just want the live TV to look for the other startchannel '1' that is
found on other input of a completely free tuner...

Petr


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newbury at mandamus

Dec 3, 2009, 3:17 PM

Post #19 of 23 (3581 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Petr Stehlik wrote:
> R. G. Newbury píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 13:24 -0500:
>
>> For example, if you get 2,4,6,8,10 from OTA and 6,8,10 from digital
>> cable as 206,208 and 210, giving the latter a channum of 6A,8A and 10A
>> would list them in the EPG below/above their equals. Internally, their
>> chanids differ and myth would know how to tune them accordingly. And an
>> in-use channel/tuner combo would show in the EPG.
>> Not QUITE what you want, but close.
>
> What's wrong with identical channums? Why making them slightly different
> (6, 6A, 6B, 6C...) and then forcing the user to try each one until they
> find one that works (or until they run into a deadlock I have just
> experienced). Shouldn't the computer know better (using the chanids)
> which tuner is free and could be used?
>

Of COURSE! the computer should know better. So should your elected
representative, but it does not always work that way. I agree that it
would be nice, but myth was not originally structured in an era where
you *could* get the same channel through 2 or 3 different routes (and
when the tuning methodology necessary to tune one of those instances
bears not relationship to the method of any other).

In one sense you *are* correct. The computer does know which tuner is in
use, but that data is not presented in a (presently) usable way. As a
result the code could just as easily view your request to view a program
*which is already being recorded* as redundant.

There are three use cases. In the first, you are not recording. Use
recording priority to select the 'best' tuner. Whenever you select the
channel, you get that tuner.

In the next case, you are recording, but you are recording THAT channel.
Then you just want to play the recording, either live or from the beginning.

In the last case, your 'best' tuner is already in use on another
channel. Seems to me that myth should already know how to handle this,
by picking an unused tuner capable of receiving the channel.
As I am not sure about this, I suggested the re-numbering.

As I said, please test. I don't KNOW if identical channums will work. It
depends on how myth treats 'identical' callsigns (I think! And don't
quote me on that! I don't like people to think that I think when I am
not paid to do so...lawyers are like that don'cha know!)

Geoff


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I may wish to offend you again in the future.

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newbury at mandamus

Dec 3, 2009, 3:20 PM

Post #20 of 23 (3584 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

Petr Stehlik wrote:
> Petr Stehlik píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 22:02 +0100:
>>>> I have been playing with various switches that could be affecting that
>>>> and now I am running into some kind of a busy loop where mythbacked and
>>>> mysql both hog the CPU at 100%. That's worse than before :-)
>>> Another case of too many settings with too many combinations to test,
>>> probably. So the hard part will likely be figuring out how to make it
>>> reproducible.
>> It's actually not that hard. If you want the Live TV to work normally
>> you definitely want to (in TV Settings -> General and Playback OSD):
>> 1) Avoid conflicts between live TV and scheduled shows
>> 2) Allow live TV to move scheduled shows
>> 3) Always use Browse mode in live TV
>> 4) Browse all channels
>
> This is getting interesting:
>
> With "Always use Browse mode in live TV" DISABLED the channel changing
> works _correctly_ and allows watching all channels using the free tuner.
> When you press ArrowUp/Down the channel is changed immediately.
>
> With that switch ENABLED when you press ArrowUp/Down and want to browse
> through the channums that are available on both cards it offers you only
> those channels that could be recorded from the BUSY card (i.e. it locks
> you to the multiplex that is being recorded on the busy card, ignoring
> there's a completely free card).
>
> It looks like the browse mode is confused by those duplicate channums
> and doesn't realize that there is a free card available with the same
> channums. Internally in Myth itself picking a free tuner works correctly
> when one avoids the Browse mode. This is actually good news.
>
> I think I am getting closer to being able to create an useful bug
> report.


THank you for that! I have always had that item ENABLED....which may be
the wrong way for what I actually want.

Heh! More play required!

Geoff


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I may wish to offend you again in the future.

Tux says: "Be regular. Eat cron flakes."

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pstehlik at sophics

Dec 3, 2009, 4:04 PM

Post #21 of 23 (3583 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

R. G. Newbury píše v Čt 03. 12. 2009 v 18:17 -0500:
> Of COURSE! the computer should know better. So should your elected
> representative, but it does not always work that way.

Luckily the computer software can be hacked, contrary to elected
representatives.

> In one sense you *are* correct. The computer does know which tuner is in
> use, but that data is not presented in a (presently) usable way.

I don't agree. Myth internally handles the multiple tuners and/or
multiple recordings properly. Only the live TV channum handling seems to
be handled incompletely.

My amateur suggestion that would hopefully work: when user selects a
channum (either by browse mode or directly) don't ask myth to tune to
that channum _on_the_current_tuner_ but instead:

1) find out the current program on that channum using EPG data
2) ask the scheduler to suggest the best tuner for recording that
program
3) tune live TV to that tuner

That's it.

It would of course be possible to do manually, i.e.:
1) find out all chanids that share the selected channum
2) figure out the tuners that can tune those chanids
3) pick up the best free tuner from the list of available tuners using
some live TV specific logic that would probably duplicate the existing
scheduler logic...

Would a developer join here and correct me, please?

Petr


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eric at lisaneric

Dec 4, 2009, 8:14 AM

Post #22 of 23 (3523 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

2009/12/3 Petr Stehlik <pstehlik [at] sophics>:
> My amateur suggestion that would hopefully work: when user selects a
> channum (either by browse mode or directly) don't ask myth to tune to
> that channum _on_the_current_tuner_ but instead:
>
> 1) find out the current program on that channum using EPG data
> 2) ask the scheduler to suggest the best tuner for recording that
> program
> 3) tune live TV to that tuner

What's wrong with?:

1) Find a free tuner that has channum
2) tune live TV to that tuner

Eric
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Dec 4, 2009, 9:17 AM

Post #23 of 23 (3507 views)
Permalink
Re: cards vs sources vs inputs confusion, problems and possible bugs [In reply to]

On 12/04/2009 11:14 AM, Eric Sharkey wrote:
> 2009/12/3 Petr Stehlik:
>
>> My amateur suggestion that would hopefully work: when user selects a
>> channum (either by browse mode or directly) don't ask myth to tune to
>> that channum _on_the_current_tuner_ but instead:
>>
>> 1) find out the current program on that channum using EPG data
>> 2) ask the scheduler to suggest the best tuner for recording that
>> program
>> 3) tune live TV to that tuner
>>
> What's wrong with?:
>
> 1) Find a free tuner that has channum
> 2) tune live TV to that tuner

That's how it's supposed to work. Channel numbers are really only for
use as a mechanism to allow a user to specify which channel to watch
during LiveTV. Their only other purpose is display related (i.e.
display info to the user about recordings and specify whether to display
individual channels in the EPG--when 2 channels share the same callsign
and channel number (and content), they're collapsed into a single entry
in the EPG).

Therefore, the channel number is a human-readable/human-rememberable
identifier for a channel. No 2 channels with differing content should
ever be given the same channel number, as doing so would prevent the
user from being able to specify which channel to tune by entering a
channel number in LiveTV. (Similarly, no 2 channels without
"substantially identical" (read "identical") content should ever be
given the same callsign--as the callsign is used to mark 2 channels as
the same/identical channel for scheduling purposes.)

Myth will also attempt to change inputs when required. However, as many
have seen, there may still be some issues related to this (as testing
all the cases with all the different options is extremely difficult).

Mike
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