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MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box

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thomaslloyd at yahoo

Nov 24, 2009, 2:13 AM

Post #1 of 15 (1526 views)
Permalink

MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box

Here are replies to all the feedback you guys have given:

@Brian Wood
>The six-hour limit makes it far less useful IMHO, but I can certainly
>understand that they have limited resources.

On the Google discussion group http://groups.google.com/group/myth-cloud
I have talked about how to implement a cloud, this was just an example
of a free test bed for anyone who wanted a sneak peak at cloud computing
without paying Amazon. The idea was that we would go for a private cloud
rather than public.

@memmott
Thanks for the heads up on that i will go and have a nose about what was
done in the past.

@john at russo
Thanks I have mailed you, the offer will be very well received if the
project can go ahead, practically legally and everything else. Where
there is a will there is a way.

@beww at beww @ sonofzev at iinet @ jarpublic at gmail
I have ideas that depending on your set-up, location and equipment
different sites can run on different profiles adding their spare
resources to the cloud. So you have lots of storage but not a lot of
bandwidth to upload you could run the profile of an archive peer. If we
get clever about how things work one could take one recorded file and
transmit that to 100's of archive server all at the same time but only
once. One recorded show could be processed by a hundred servers in
different locations then the small chunks distrusted. A little bit of
CPU time and a little bit of bandwidth but it cumulatively add up to
large amounts.

Also the idea of storage is to have it split on the archive servers, one
person only ever gets 30 secs or 10% of a file which is considered fair
use. http://www.lib.umn.edu/copyright/fairuse.phtml#fourfacotrs
Obviously these chucks will exist over lots of sites but no more than
the legal amount per server. Like bit torrent but you only host a fair
amount of it. This is an idea I am not a lawyer.

Then if you want to watch it you pull it back together and hey presto if
that content is illegal not for your country or anything then the user
is breaking the law not the hosts.

I am not talking a group of ten servers but a group of 1000's allowing
for bandwidth to be cleverly used based on geographical location etc
etc. So if one host decides to use his server for a live video cast and
his bandwidth drops off from the cloud no big deal.

The file sharing becomes nothing more than a intelligent p2p system.
Possibility of geographical location limits to follow content law. A bit
like BBC iPlayer and Hulu.

This is where the law gets fuzzy if your not storing the whole show,
take youtube for example. Or the data is not in a usable state unless
whole, there might be a way around it?

@myself

I just think of all the content that is being show and how if i had a
nice big server room with enough storage and capture devices that I
could record it all on and then share it with other people legally of
course. How that for want of having a system of place it is all
possible.

I am not suggesting we make an illegal TV sharing service but more a
user run, on-demand internet service. Myth being the content provider
then numerous clients could access the content on-line using the storage
network. I only mentioned the could as it is a shame that 100 users may
record the same show then process it and that could be done more
efficiently if there was some co-ordination. Also more content could be
made available if there was some sort of mass effort to capture it and
store it.

Thinking bigger than we have, if you had a teraflop of processing power
could you do top video processing on shows at some new quality not yet
implemented. I am not a video encoding expert but I would be interested
to hear from any that are.

Tom

We already have our own song :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btlEeQ1hX_c

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belcampo at zonnet

Nov 24, 2009, 2:42 AM

Post #2 of 15 (1479 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

Thomas Lloyd wrote:
> Here are replies to all the feedback you guys have given:
>
> @Brian Wood
>> The six-hour limit makes it far less useful IMHO, but I can certainly
>> understand that they have limited resources.
>
> On the Google discussion group http://groups.google.com/group/myth-cloud
> I have talked about how to implement a cloud, this was just an example
> of a free test bed for anyone who wanted a sneak peak at cloud computing
> without paying Amazon. The idea was that we would go for a private cloud
> rather than public.
>
> @memmott
> Thanks for the heads up on that i will go and have a nose about what was
> done in the past.
>
> @john at russo
> Thanks I have mailed you, the offer will be very well received if the
> project can go ahead, practically legally and everything else. Where
> there is a will there is a way.
>
> @beww at beww @ sonofzev at iinet @ jarpublic at gmail
> I have ideas that depending on your set-up, location and equipment
> different sites can run on different profiles adding their spare
> resources to the cloud. So you have lots of storage but not a lot of
> bandwidth to upload you could run the profile of an archive peer. If we
> get clever about how things work one could take one recorded file and
> transmit that to 100's of archive server all at the same time but only
> once. One recorded show could be processed by a hundred servers in
> different locations then the small chunks distrusted. A little bit of
> CPU time and a little bit of bandwidth but it cumulatively add up to
> large amounts.
>
> Also the idea of storage is to have it split on the archive servers, one
> person only ever gets 30 secs or 10% of a file which is considered fair
> use. http://www.lib.umn.edu/copyright/fairuse.phtml#fourfacotrs
> Obviously these chucks will exist over lots of sites but no more than
> the legal amount per server. Like bit torrent but you only host a fair
> amount of it. This is an idea I am not a lawyer.
>
> Then if you want to watch it you pull it back together and hey presto if
> that content is illegal not for your country or anything then the user
> is breaking the law not the hosts.
>
> I am not talking a group of ten servers but a group of 1000's allowing
> for bandwidth to be cleverly used based on geographical location etc
> etc. So if one host decides to use his server for a live video cast and
> his bandwidth drops off from the cloud no big deal.
>
> The file sharing becomes nothing more than a intelligent p2p system.
> Possibility of geographical location limits to follow content law. A bit
> like BBC iPlayer and Hulu.
>
> This is where the law gets fuzzy if your not storing the whole show,
> take youtube for example. Or the data is not in a usable state unless
> whole, there might be a way around it?
>
> @myself
>
> I just think of all the content that is being show and how if i had a
> nice big server room with enough storage and capture devices that I
> could record it all on and then share it with other people legally of
> course. How that for want of having a system of place it is all
> possible.
>
> I am not suggesting we make an illegal TV sharing service but more a
> user run, on-demand internet service. Myth being the content provider
> then numerous clients could access the content on-line using the storage
> network. I only mentioned the could as it is a shame that 100 users may
> record the same show then process it and that could be done more
> efficiently if there was some co-ordination. Also more content could be
> made available if there was some sort of mass effort to capture it and
> store it.
>
> Thinking bigger than we have, if you had a teraflop of processing power
> could you do top video processing on shows at some new quality not yet
> implemented. I am not a video encoding expert but I would be interested
> to hear from any that are.
>
> Tom
>
> We already have our own song :D
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btlEeQ1hX_c
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
At http://www.onlinetvrecorder.com they are doing this in a way you are
thinking of, already for many years. Not very user-friendly, but one can
record download and then local-play the content.
If it would be more user-friendly and playable from their storage
instead of downloading it could be rather attractive.
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robert.mcnamara at gmail

Nov 24, 2009, 2:46 AM

Post #3 of 15 (1478 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Thomas Lloyd <thomaslloyd [at] yahoo> wrote:

>
> @beww at beww @ sonofzev at iinet @ jarpublic at gmail
> I have ideas that depending on your set-up, location and equipment
> different sites can run on different profiles adding their spare
> resources to the cloud. So you have lots of storage but not a lot of
> bandwidth to upload you could run the profile of an archive peer. If we
> get clever about how things work one could take one recorded file and
> transmit that to 100's of archive server all at the same time but only
> once. One recorded show could be processed by a hundred servers in
> different locations then the small chunks distrusted. A little bit of
> CPU time and a little bit of bandwidth but it cumulatively add up to
> large amounts.
>

By this theory, if you watched a copyrighted movie by streaming it
from a web site, it would be 100% legal because you don't host any of
it. It's not. Both you as the person downloading it (yes, streaming
it is downloading it) and the person who uploaded it have violated
various US statutes, as well as the Terms of Service of pretty much
every cable provider on earth. You *do not possess* the rights to
distribute this material. None of us do.

> Also the idea of storage is to have it split on the archive servers, one
> person only ever gets 30 secs or 10% of a file which is considered fair
> use. http://www.lib.umn.edu/copyright/fairuse.phtml#fourfacotrs
> Obviously these chucks will exist over lots of sites but no more than
> the legal amount per server. Like bit torrent but you only host a fair
> amount of it. This is an idea I am not a lawyer.
>

Fair use is *not* a set of rules for getting away with copyright
infringement. This discussion is *not acceptable* on this list. You
are not a lawyer. I strongly suggest you seek the advice of one
before embarking any further on this (ill advised) idea.

> Then if you want to watch it you pull it back together and hey presto if
> that content is illegal not for your country or anything then the user
> is breaking the law not the hosts.

There is no doubt in my mind that this violates the spirit of fair
use, and it *definitely* violates the rules of this mailing list.

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Mailing_List_etiquette#Anything_else_I_should_be_aware_of.3F

Specifically:

"# Discussion of any topics that may be considered illegal or
questionably legal in any of the areas that MythTV developers and/or
users reside (especially the United States as the mailing lists are
hosted in the United States) is prohibited.

Do not even mention these things in passing within another discussion.
This is non-negotiable.
Making it "hypothetical" does not make it OK.
These rules are meant to protect the MythTV developers and the
project itself. Even if you feel that your actions are not in
violation of any laws, terms of service, contracts, or rules of
ethics, please consider how an outsider who has not followed the
thread and/or sees only parts of your post out of context and/or who
may live in an area whose laws differ from yours may interpret your
statements. In the past, the MythTV project has already been painted
as just another tool used by file sharers and copyright violators in a
New York Times article entitled, "Steal This Show".
Prohibited topics include (but are not limited to):

1. Discussion of copying and/or distributing video obtained via
MythTV recording
2. Discussion of acquiring video via any means other than through
recording with MythTV
3. Discussion of the use of softcam to decrypt encrypted digital broadcasts
4. Discussion of any means of obtaining programming illegally or
through means which may be a violation of copyright laws or terms of
service "

This violates *multiple* of these tenets. Seriously. Not okay, not
up for discussion. I like my house, I am a myth dev, and I am not
interested if giving it up because someone decides to sue the project
because it enable's someone's illegal idea, and I'm especially not
interested in giving it up to get you more TV.

>
> I am not talking a group of ten servers but a group of 1000's allowing
> for bandwidth to be cleverly used based on geographical location etc
> etc. So if one host decides to use his server for a live video cast and
> his bandwidth drops off from the cloud no big deal.
>

You say "clever," I say "any judge would call it illegal," let's call
the whole thing off.

> The file sharing becomes nothing more than a intelligent p2p system.
> Possibility of geographical location limits to follow content law. A bit
> like BBC iPlayer and Hulu.
>

Except without all the licensed material.

> This is where the law gets fuzzy if your not storing the whole show,
> take youtube for example. Or the data is not in a usable state unless
> whole, there might be a way around it?
>

fuzzy = illegal.

Sadly, I suspect I am about to get shouted down for this post. THIS
IDEA IS NOT LEGAL. THIS IDEA IS NOT PERMITTED DISCUSSION ON THIS
LIST. YOU have nothing to lose from the project getting sued and/or
the authors of the project being help liable for facilitating illegal
activity, *I DO*.

Robert
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bill at bbqninja

Nov 24, 2009, 3:14 AM

Post #4 of 15 (1477 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Robert McNamara > Sadly, I suspect I
am about to get shouted down for this post. �THIS
> IDEA IS NOT LEGAL. �THIS IDEA IS NOT PERMITTED DISCUSSION ON THIS
> LIST. �YOU have nothing to lose from the project getting sued and/or
> the authors of the project being help liable for facilitating illegal
> activity, *I DO*.

Will you reply this response to the next person asking about dvd playback?
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belcampo at zonnet

Nov 24, 2009, 3:27 AM

Post #5 of 15 (1474 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

Robert McNamara wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Thomas Lloyd <thomaslloyd [at] yahoo> wrote:
>
>> @beww at beww @ sonofzev at iinet @ jarpublic at gmail
>> I have ideas that depending on your set-up, location and equipment
>> different sites can run on different profiles adding their spare
>> resources to the cloud. So you have lots of storage but not a lot of
>> bandwidth to upload you could run the profile of an archive peer. If we
>> get clever about how things work one could take one recorded file and
>> transmit that to 100's of archive server all at the same time but only
>> once. One recorded show could be processed by a hundred servers in
>> different locations then the small chunks distrusted. A little bit of
>> CPU time and a little bit of bandwidth but it cumulatively add up to
>> large amounts.
>>
>
> By this theory, if you watched a copyrighted movie by streaming it
> from a web site, it would be 100% legal because you don't host any of
> it. It's not. Both you as the person downloading it (yes, streaming
> it is downloading it) and the person who uploaded it have violated
> various US statutes, as well as the Terms of Service of pretty much
> every cable provider on earth. You *do not possess* the rights to
> distribute this material. None of us do.
>
>> Also the idea of storage is to have it split on the archive servers, one
>> person only ever gets 30 secs or 10% of a file which is considered fair
>> use. http://www.lib.umn.edu/copyright/fairuse.phtml#fourfacotrs
>> Obviously these chucks will exist over lots of sites but no more than
>> the legal amount per server. Like bit torrent but you only host a fair
>> amount of it. This is an idea I am not a lawyer.
>>
>
> Fair use is *not* a set of rules for getting away with copyright
> infringement. This discussion is *not acceptable* on this list. You
> are not a lawyer. I strongly suggest you seek the advice of one
> before embarking any further on this (ill advised) idea.
>
>> Then if you want to watch it you pull it back together and hey presto if
>> that content is illegal not for your country or anything then the user
>> is breaking the law not the hosts.
>
> There is no doubt in my mind that this violates the spirit of fair
> use, and it *definitely* violates the rules of this mailing list.
>
> http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Mailing_List_etiquette#Anything_else_I_should_be_aware_of.3F
>
> Specifically:
>
> "# Discussion of any topics that may be considered illegal or
> questionably legal in any of the areas that MythTV developers and/or
> users reside (especially the United States as the mailing lists are
> hosted in the United States) is prohibited.
>
> Do not even mention these things in passing within another discussion.
> This is non-negotiable.
> Making it "hypothetical" does not make it OK.
> These rules are meant to protect the MythTV developers and the
> project itself. Even if you feel that your actions are not in
> violation of any laws, terms of service, contracts, or rules of
> ethics, please consider how an outsider who has not followed the
> thread and/or sees only parts of your post out of context and/or who
> may live in an area whose laws differ from yours may interpret your
> statements. In the past, the MythTV project has already been painted
> as just another tool used by file sharers and copyright violators in a
> New York Times article entitled, "Steal This Show".
> Prohibited topics include (but are not limited to):
>
> 1. Discussion of copying and/or distributing video obtained via
> MythTV recording
> 2. Discussion of acquiring video via any means other than through
> recording with MythTV
> 3. Discussion of the use of softcam to decrypt encrypted digital broadcasts
> 4. Discussion of any means of obtaining programming illegally or
> through means which may be a violation of copyright laws or terms of
> service "
>
> This violates *multiple* of these tenets. Seriously. Not okay, not
> up for discussion. I like my house, I am a myth dev, and I am not
> interested if giving it up because someone decides to sue the project
> because it enable's someone's illegal idea, and I'm especially not
> interested in giving it up to get you more TV.
>
>> I am not talking a group of ten servers but a group of 1000's allowing
>> for bandwidth to be cleverly used based on geographical location etc
>> etc. So if one host decides to use his server for a live video cast and
>> his bandwidth drops off from the cloud no big deal.
>>
>
> You say "clever," I say "any judge would call it illegal," let's call
> the whole thing off.
>
>> The file sharing becomes nothing more than a intelligent p2p system.
>> Possibility of geographical location limits to follow content law. A bit
>> like BBC iPlayer and Hulu.
>>
>
> Except without all the licensed material.
>
>> This is where the law gets fuzzy if your not storing the whole show,
>> take youtube for example. Or the data is not in a usable state unless
>> whole, there might be a way around it?
>>
>
> fuzzy = illegal.
>
> Sadly, I suspect I am about to get shouted down for this post. THIS
> IDEA IS NOT LEGAL. THIS IDEA IS NOT PERMITTED DISCUSSION ON THIS
> LIST. YOU have nothing to lose from the project getting sued and/or
> the authors of the project being help liable for facilitating illegal
> activity, *I DO*.
Maybe reading this lightens things a little bit.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/04/cablevision-common-sense-win-network-dvr-appeal/
>
> Robert
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

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belcampo at zonnet

Nov 24, 2009, 3:54 AM

Post #6 of 15 (1478 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

<snip>
> Maybe reading this lightens things a little bit.
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/04/cablevision-common-sense-win-network-dvr-appeal/
and follow-up with:
Supreme Court declines to hear remote storage DVR appeal, cloud
recording is on the way
http://hd.engadget.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-remote-storage-dvr-appeal-cloud/
>
>>
>> Robert
>> _______________________________________________
>> mythtv-users mailing list
>> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
>> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users [at] mythtv
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

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totallymaxed at gmail

Nov 24, 2009, 5:08 AM

Post #7 of 15 (1455 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM, belcampo <belcampo [at] zonnet> wrote:

> <snip>
>
> Maybe reading this lightens things a little bit.
>>
>> http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/04/cablevision-common-sense-win-network-dvr-appeal/
>>
> and follow-up with:
> Supreme Court declines to hear remote storage DVR appeal, cloud recording
> is on the way
>
> http://hd.engadget.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-remote-storage-dvr-appeal-cloud/
>
>
Hmmm...but I think important difference here is that Cablevision already had
a legal service offering legal content that the rights holders were
receiving payment for...this case was around extending the notion of what
constitutes a DVR plain and simple.

Andrew

thomaslloyd at yahoo

Nov 24, 2009, 6:22 AM

Post #8 of 15 (1451 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

Hi again,

@Robert McNamara

I will let you keep your house today Robert. I respect your wishes and
will not post to the list any more, but i will ask for all those
interested in reading about and contributing to this idea join us on
Google groups.

WEB: http://groups.google.com/group/myth-cloud

RSS: http://groups.google.com/group/myth-cloud/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml

E-mail: myth-cloud [at] googlegroups

Also from now on I will use "capture software" in my discussions.

Any bit of software can be used by someone with illegal intentions. Bit
Torrent is a very useful tool for file distribution yet it gained its
popularity though illegal usage. Maybe i can base the system all on
Windows and take Microsoft down too :D

Thanks all for your intresting ideas and thoughts. Now i am going to
have a play with clouds, sheep dogs and eucalyptus trees in my media
jungle.

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george.galt at gmail

Nov 24, 2009, 6:29 AM

Post #9 of 15 (1447 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Thomas Lloyd <thomaslloyd [at] yahoo> wrote:
> Here are replies to all the feedback you guys have given:
>
> Also the idea of storage is to have it split on the archive servers, one
> person only ever gets 30 secs or 10% of a file which is considered fair
> use. http://www.lib.umn.edu/copyright/fairuse.phtml#fourfacotrs
> Obviously these chucks will exist over lots of sites but no more than
> the legal amount per server. Like bit torrent but you only host a fair
> amount of it. This is an idea I am not a lawyer.

Not to continue a discussion that Robert has properly pointed out
should NOT be on this list, but I did want to make it clear that there
is no minimum amount of copying that is **automatically** fair use.
CBS and Reuters were successfully sued for copyright infringement when
they took just a few seconds of video of Reginald Denny (sp?) being
beaten up in the Los Angeles riots after the Rodney King verdict. And
there are many other instances where courts have rejected fair use
defenses when even just a little amount was taken.

The page you point to DOES NOT state that 30 seconds or 10% is
automatically fair use. It does state that one of the 4 factors used
to make the fair use analysis is the amount taken, but this is not the
same thing -- and note that the amount taken does not address the
other 3 factors. Please be careful and understand that you are
perpetuating a myth.
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jedi at mishnet

Nov 24, 2009, 6:54 AM

Post #10 of 15 (1450 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:54:36PM +0100, belcampo wrote:
> <snip>
>> Maybe reading this lightens things a little bit.

>> http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/04/cablevision-common-sense-win-network-dvr-appeal/
>>
> and follow-up with:
> Supreme Court declines to hear remote storage DVR appeal, cloud
> recording is on the way
> http://hd.engadget.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-remote-storage-dvr-appeal-cloud/

...which was a cable company streaming to it's own subscribers that content
which it already paid for. Legitimacy of the given content could easily be
established. This is why discussions of playing DVDs are also obviously less
objectionable. "ownership" of the content can easily be established. Piracy
in the pre-DMCA sense is more likely than not NOT going on.
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Nov 24, 2009, 11:24 AM

Post #11 of 15 (1427 views)
Permalink

Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

On 11/24/2009 08:08 AM, Andrew Herron wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM, belcampo wrote:
>
>> Maybe reading this lightens things a little bit.
>>
>>> http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/04/cablevision-common-sense-win-network-dvr-appeal/
>>>
>> and follow-up with:
>> Supreme Court declines to hear remote storage DVR appeal, cloud recording
>> is on the way
>>
>> http://hd.engadget.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-remote-storage-dvr-appeal-cloud/
>>
> Hmmm...but I think important difference here is that Cablevision already had
> a legal service offering legal content that the rights holders were
> receiving payment for

Right. More specifically, that Cablevision had already paid for
distribution rights for the content they were distributing.

> ...this case was around extending the notion of what
> constitutes a DVR plain and simple.

Exactly.

Mike
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mtdean at thirdcontact

Nov 24, 2009, 11:30 AM

Post #12 of 15 (1424 views)
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Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

On 11/24/2009 06:14 AM, Bill Williamson wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Robert McNamara
>
>> Sadly, I suspect I
>> am about to get shouted down for this post. THIS
>> IDEA IS NOT LEGAL. THIS IDEA IS NOT PERMITTED DISCUSSION ON THIS
>> LIST. YOU have nothing to lose from the project getting sued and/or
>> the authors of the project being help liable for facilitating illegal
>> activity, *I DO*.
>>
> Will you reply this response to the next person asking about dvd playback?

DVD playback is legal. MythTV supports playing and ripping unencrypted
non-copyrighted DVD's. MythTV does /not/ support playing encrypted
DVD's. Since all commercial, copyrighted DVD's that I have ever seen
use CSS encryption, Myth doesn't support playing and ripping commercial,
copyrighted DVD's.

Some users--often in violation of local laws, and /always/ in violation
of the DVD CCA licensing terms--install libdvdcss to allow them to break
the technical protections on the DVD disks. /They/ may be adding code
to their systems that breaks the encryption, but it's not Myth adding
that code nor Myth breaking the encryption. (Keep reading before you
say, "But that's what he said, 'Let's set up a service with no legal use
and make it so that the users violate the law so that we can't be
stopped.'" because this is not my argument, but only a fact that
provides foundation for my argument.)

This approach they're using is basically the same as the approach some
Blu-Ray owners are taking of installing a program on a Windows box that
breaks the Blu-Ray encryption and rips the video to an unencrypted MPEG
stream. The only difference is that DVD users can do the DVD decryption
on a *nix box.

So, with that in mind, what do you want? A worm inside MythTV that
seeks out all computers with libdvdcss installed and destroys it? Code
in MythTV (an /open-source/ project) that disables DVD playback if it
detects libdvdcss is installed? (It's not like a patch to remove that
code wouldn't be placed on the 'net in minutes--or, for that matter,
reverse-applying the commit would remove it.)

There's also a thriving community of people stealing satellite service
who are using MythTV with patches that add support for softcam and other
methods of illegal access. There's /nothing/ that Myth can do to
prevent this or the illegal DVD decryption. We can, however, state a
policy that we do /not/ support stealing video and try to convince our
users and the list users to at least discuss any nefarious activities
elsewhere.

Basically, come up with some good and enforceable way of preventing a
user from playing or ripping a commercial copyrighted DVD while still
allowing them to play or rip non-commercial and/or self-copyrighted
DVD's and I'd be happy to apply it.

This is why I don't use my Myth box to play DVD's.

And, now, my argument against the "MythCloud": We /can/ stop people
from discussing this illegal distribution mechanism on the list.
Therefore, we are attempting to do so.

And, I hope--if someone decides to pursue this idea--that the owner of
the MythTV project forces that person to remove all association with the
MythTV project (including forcing them to rename their "service").

Mike
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jarpublic at gmail

Nov 24, 2009, 12:14 PM

Post #13 of 15 (1426 views)
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Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

>> Will you reply this response to the next person asking about dvd playback?
>
> DVD playback is legal. �MythTV supports playing and ripping unencrypted
> non-copyrighted DVD's. �MythTV does /not/ support playing encrypted DVD's.
> �Since all commercial, copyrighted DVD's that I have ever seen use CSS
> encryption, Myth doesn't support playing and ripping commercial, copyrighted
> DVD's.

Also just to emphasize, DVD playback is a DMCA issue and is limited to
the US and a few other places with similar laws. It is not a copyright
violation and is perfectly legal in much of the world. The suggested
cloud DVR would be a copyright violation and would be illegal pretty
much everywhere. It is irrelevant that you are splitting the files up
as other has mentioned. Your software's primary purpose would be to
facilitate your users obtaining content that they didn't pay for and
don't have the rights to. Your users will be liable for copyright
infringement. Those who make the software will be liable for what is
called 'facillitating copyright infringement'. They could also get you
for another violation called 'inducing copyright infringement', for
which they only have to show that you were encouraging others by
aiding or counseling them on how to do it. If you still think your
project would hold up, look at all of the P2P companies that have
failed in courts all over the world. See Napster, Kazaa, Limewire,
Pirate Bay, etc. None of them were busted for copyright infringement.
They were all charged with facilitating and inducing infringement.
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beww at beww

Nov 24, 2009, 1:14 PM

Post #14 of 15 (1410 views)
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Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

On Tuesday 24 November 2009 12:30:40 Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 11/24/2009 06:14 AM, Bill Williamson wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Robert McNamara
> >
> >> Sadly, I suspect I
> >> am about to get shouted down for this post. THIS
> >> IDEA IS NOT LEGAL. THIS IDEA IS NOT PERMITTED DISCUSSION ON THIS
> >> LIST. YOU have nothing to lose from the project getting sued and/or
> >> the authors of the project being help liable for facilitating illegal
> >> activity, *I DO*.
> >
> > Will you reply this response to the next person asking about dvd
> > playback?
>
> DVD playback is legal. MythTV supports playing and ripping unencrypted
> non-copyrighted DVD's. MythTV does /not/ support playing encrypted
> DVD's. Since all commercial, copyrighted DVD's that I have ever seen
> use CSS encryption, Myth doesn't support playing and ripping commercial,
> copyrighted DVD's.

I have several commercial DVDs that I have purchased that are not "protected"
by CSS. These are collections of old TV shows, like the "Honeymooners"
and "The Beverly Hillbillies" and similar material. The disks do have the
usual "FBI" warning and a copyright notice on the package, but are otherwise
not protected in any way.

Since the DVDs are not CSS-protected, I believe it is perfectly legal in the
USA for me to make archival copies of them. I believe it would be legal for
me to lend a disk to somebody else to view, but I'm not certain of that.
Certainly it would be illegal for me to give away or sell copies of the
disks.

I mention this only to say that not all commercial DVDs are CSS- protected,
though certainly the vast majority are.

There is a vast difference between the copyright restrictions and the DMCA
restrictions against breaking ther CSS protection.

--
Brian Wood
beww [at] beww
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eric at lisaneric

Nov 24, 2009, 1:37 PM

Post #15 of 15 (1415 views)
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Re: MythCloud, think bigger think outside the box [In reply to]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Brian Wood <beww [at] beww> wrote:
> Since the DVDs are not CSS-protected, I believe it is perfectly legal in the
> USA for me to make archival copies of them.

I believe archival copies are allowed regardless of CSS, since CSS
does not prevent copying. (i.e., making an iso image of a disc that
has CSS protection does not require breaking CSS.)

> I believe it would be legal for
> me to lend a disk to somebody else to view, but I'm not certain of that.

Do you mean while you are in possession of archival copies? I don't
know. Presumably you'd be ok if they're truly archival. (In other
words, you can't use them except to replace the original, which you
can't do while the original is not in your control and hasn't been
destroyed.)

> Certainly it would be illegal for me to give away or sell copies of the
> disks.

It's legal to give away or sell it once, provided that you destroy or
transfer any copies you have.

Eric
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