Mailing List Archive: MythTV: Users

Minimal button requirement for remote controls?

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ylee at pobox

Nov 6, 2009, 4:24 AM

Post #1 of 11 (215 views)
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Minimal button requirement for remote controls?

David Engel recently wrote:
> With a limited number of keys on most remotes, you often want to
> overload them for different contexts and Myth doesn't always make
> that easy or possible currently.

I suspect there needs to be a consensus on what comprises a minimally
acceptable MythTV remote so that keybindings and on-screen prompts can
be built around it.

The closest thing I've found to a consensus is the "Remote Controls"
section of the HOWTO
(<URL:http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-11.html#ss11.1>), which
describes a remote with 20 keys. Other key 1 and 2 don't have to be
bound to INFO[*] and NEXTCARD; in fact, I'd argue that with only 20
buttons they'd be more useful as PAGEUP and PAGEDOWN. (How many
remotes out there other than Apple's, no matter how minimal, don't
have Ch+/Ch- buttons?) This, in turn, would free 3 and 9 for David's
since-removed work that added 0-9 as 10%-increment jumpkeys within
lists, which would be an alternative to/preferable to my work--which
MythUI in 0.22 greatly improved by making global--implementing the
PAGETOP/PAGEMIDDLE/PAGEBOTTOM keybindings.

Speaking of those bindings, unlike Ch+-/Ch- very few remotes have
"Top," "Middle," and "Bottom" buttons. They *are* going to have 2, 5,
and 8. After upgrading to 0.22 I quickly (re)bound
PAGETOP/PAGEMIDDLE/PAGEBOTTOM to them. Although by doing so I lost the
2 binding to sort program lists by title--a conflict that didn't
previously exist since the bindings weren't available pre-0.22 in
lists with that sort functionality--the new 0.22 MENU popup menu in
said lists still lets me sort that way.

The on-screen prompt still mentions 1 and 2 as sort keys,
though. Another example of the need for a minimal-remote consensus is
that, if all the number keys--not just 3 and 9--were freed from being
used by default for anything other than the digits themselves, then 1)
on-screen prompts can be rewritten accordingly to avoid the sort of
inaccuracy that resulted from my rebinding, and 2) David's 10%
functionality could be reimplemented via keybindings
(PAGE10/PAGE20/PAGE30/etc., etc.) and users would have a choice of
which set of bindings to manually bind to use to rapidly navigate
large lists. 3 and 9 won't be freed unless a consensus exists that any
MythTV-compliant remote will have Ch+/Ch- buttons, though.

Finally, let me briefly readdress the Apple remote. While I admire its
minimalism, I think most MythTV users would agree that said minimalism
is insufficient for our use. In any case, having six buttons is only
feasible for Apple's purposes because users can do things like holding
down the Menu button for secondary actions; given that MythTV users
use LIRC and keyboards--neither of which can easily distinguish
between "long" and "short" button presses--that isn't going to work
for us.

[*] This of course changed with 0.22, but I trust that eventually we
are going to move away from the strange need for two "menu" buttons.

--
Yeechang Lee <ylee[at]pobox.com> | San Francisco CA US
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xavier.hervy at bluebottle

Nov 6, 2009, 6:44 AM

Post #2 of 11 (206 views)
Permalink

Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

Yeechang Lee wrote:
> David Engel recently wrote:
>
>> With a limited number of keys on most remotes, you often want to
>> overload them for different contexts and Myth doesn't always make
>> that easy or possible currently.
>>
>
> I suspect there needs to be a consensus on what comprises a minimally
> acceptable MythTV remote so that keybindings and on-screen prompts can
> be built around it.
>
> The closest thing I've found to a consensus is the "Remote Controls"
> section of the HOWTO
> (<URL:http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-11.html#ss11.1>), which
> describes a remote with 20 keys. Other key 1 and 2 don't have to be
> bound to INFO[*] and NEXTCARD; in fact, I'd argue that with only 20
> buttons they'd be more useful as PAGEUP and PAGEDOWN. (How many
> remotes out there other than Apple's, no matter how minimal, don't
> have Ch+/Ch- buttons?) This, in turn, would free 3 and 9 for David's
> since-removed work that added 0-9 as 10%-increment jumpkeys within
> lists, which would be an alternative to/preferable to my work--which
> MythUI in 0.22 greatly improved by making global--implementing the
> PAGETOP/PAGEMIDDLE/PAGEBOTTOM keybindings.
>
> Speaking of those bindings, unlike Ch+-/Ch- very few remotes have
> "Top," "Middle," and "Bottom" buttons. They *are* going to have 2, 5,
> and 8. After upgrading to 0.22 I quickly (re)bound
> PAGETOP/PAGEMIDDLE/PAGEBOTTOM to them. Although by doing so I lost the
> 2 binding to sort program lists by title--a conflict that didn't
> previously exist since the bindings weren't available pre-0.22 in
> lists with that sort functionality--the new 0.22 MENU popup menu in
> said lists still lets me sort that way.
>
> The on-screen prompt still mentions 1 and 2 as sort keys,
> though. Another example of the need for a minimal-remote consensus is
> that, if all the number keys--not just 3 and 9--were freed from being
> used by default for anything other than the digits themselves, then 1)
> on-screen prompts can be rewritten accordingly to avoid the sort of
> inaccuracy that resulted from my rebinding, and 2) David's 10%
> functionality could be reimplemented via keybindings
> (PAGE10/PAGE20/PAGE30/etc., etc.) and users would have a choice of
> which set of bindings to manually bind to use to rapidly navigate
> large lists. 3 and 9 won't be freed unless a consensus exists that any
> MythTV-compliant remote will have Ch+/Ch- buttons, though.
>
> Finally, let me briefly readdress the Apple remote. While I admire its
> minimalism, I think most MythTV users would agree that said minimalism
> is insufficient for our use. In any case, having six buttons is only
> feasible for Apple's purposes because users can do things like holding
> down the Menu button for secondary actions; given that MythTV users
> use LIRC and keyboards--neither of which can easily distinguish
> between "long" and "short" button presses--that isn't going to work
> for us.
>
> [*] This of course changed with 0.22, but I trust that eventually we
> are going to move away from the strange need for two "menu" buttons.
>
>

I have to disagree. I am mainly using a wii remote with only 10 buttons
(including info + menu) and it is sufficient.
Personally I believe 7 buttons should be enough (arrow key, select +
back + menu). The rest SHOULD be accessible via a menu. It is up to the
user to use extra button as a shortcut.
Xavier

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anothersname at googlemail

Nov 6, 2009, 6:46 AM

Post #3 of 11 (208 views)
Permalink

Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

2009/11/6 xavier hervy <xavier.hervy[at]bluebottle.com>:
> Yeechang Lee wrote:
>>
>> David Engel recently wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> With a limited number of keys on most remotes, you often want to
>>> overload them for different contexts and Myth doesn't always make
>>> that easy or possible currently.
>>>
>>
>> I suspect there needs to be a consensus on what comprises a minimally
>> acceptable MythTV remote so that keybindings and on-screen prompts can
>> be built around it.
>>
>> The closest thing I've found to a consensus is the "Remote Controls"
>> section of the HOWTO
>> (<URL:http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-11.html#ss11.1>), which
>> describes a remote with 20 keys. Other key 1 and 2 don't have to be
>> bound to INFO[*] and NEXTCARD; in fact, I'd argue that with only 20
>> buttons they'd be more useful as PAGEUP and PAGEDOWN. (How many
>> remotes out there other than Apple's, no matter how minimal, don't
>> have Ch+/Ch- buttons?) This, in turn, would free 3 and 9 for David's
>> since-removed work that added 0-9 as 10%-increment jumpkeys within
>> lists, which would be an alternative to/preferable to my work--which
>> MythUI in 0.22 greatly improved by making global--implementing the
>> PAGETOP/PAGEMIDDLE/PAGEBOTTOM keybindings.
>>
>> Speaking of those bindings, unlike Ch+-/Ch- very few remotes have
>> "Top," "Middle," and "Bottom" buttons. They *are* going to have 2, 5,
>> and 8. After upgrading to 0.22 I quickly (re)bound
>> PAGETOP/PAGEMIDDLE/PAGEBOTTOM to them. Although by doing so I lost the
>> 2 binding to sort program lists by title--a conflict that didn't
>> previously exist since the bindings weren't available pre-0.22 in
>> lists with that sort functionality--the new 0.22 MENU popup menu in
>> said lists still lets me sort that way.
>>
>> The on-screen prompt still mentions 1 and 2 as sort keys,
>> though. Another example of the need for a minimal-remote consensus is
>> that, if all the number keys--not just 3 and 9--were freed from being
>> used by default for anything other than the digits themselves, then 1)
>> on-screen prompts can be rewritten accordingly to avoid the sort of
>> inaccuracy that resulted from my rebinding, and 2) David's 10%
>> functionality could be reimplemented via keybindings
>> (PAGE10/PAGE20/PAGE30/etc., etc.) and users would have a choice of
>> which set of bindings to manually bind to use to rapidly navigate
>> large lists. 3 and 9 won't be freed unless a consensus exists that any
>> MythTV-compliant remote will have Ch+/Ch- buttons, though.
>>
>> Finally, let me briefly readdress the Apple remote. While I admire its
>> minimalism, I think most MythTV users would agree that said minimalism
>> is insufficient for our use. In any case, having six buttons is only
>> feasible for Apple's purposes because users can do things like holding
>> down the Menu button for secondary actions; given that MythTV users
>> use LIRC and keyboards--neither of which can easily distinguish
>> between "long" and "short" button presses--that isn't going to work
>> for us.
>>
>> [*] This of course changed with 0.22, but I trust that eventually we
>> are going to move away from the strange need for two "menu" buttons.
>>
>>
>
> I have to disagree. I am mainly using a wii remote with only 10 buttons
> (including info + menu) and it is sufficient.
> Personally I believe 7 buttons should be enough (arrow key, select + back +
> menu). The rest SHOULD be accessible via a menu. It is up to the user to use
> extra button as a shortcut.
> Xavier
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users[at]mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

Only 7 buttons when you have over 100 channels could take a while for
channel selection
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eric at lisaneric

Nov 6, 2009, 8:13 AM

Post #4 of 11 (206 views)
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Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Another Sillyname
<anothersname[at]googlemail.com> wrote:
> Only 7 buttons when you have over 100 channels could take a while for
> channel selection

For some of us, selecting a channel is a very rare event.

Pretty much the only time I use LiveTV is when debugging some problem
with a tuner.

Recently, my wife was in a hospital. The remote for the TV had one
button. You'd push the button to turn it on, push it again to
increment the channel number, if it was on the highest numbered
channel pushing it again would turn it off. That's taking minimalism
to the extreme...

Eric
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beww at beww

Nov 6, 2009, 8:23 AM

Post #5 of 11 (192 views)
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Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

On Friday 06 November 2009 09:13:38 Eric Sharkey wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Another Sillyname
>
> <anothersname[at]googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Only 7 buttons when you have over 100 channels could take a while for
> > channel selection
>
> For some of us, selecting a channel is a very rare event.
>
> Pretty much the only time I use LiveTV is when debugging some problem
> with a tuner.
>
>
> Recently, my wife was in a hospital. The remote for the TV had one
> button. You'd push the button to turn it on, push it again to
> increment the channel number, if it was on the highest numbered
> channel pushing it again would turn it off. That's taking minimalism
> to the extreme...

Years ago I was in a hospital with a similar setup. Changing channels was a
major undertaking. A friend brought me a universal remote, which we
programmed for the TV set in the room.

When I left, one of the nurses offered to buy the remote from me, saying that
many patients couldn't deal with the "official" system. Of course I just gave
it to her.

To add insult to injury, they were charging $10 per day to rent a TV.

--
Brian Wood
beww[at]beww.org
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xavier.hervy at bluebottle

Nov 6, 2009, 9:43 AM

Post #6 of 11 (192 views)
Permalink

Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

Eric Sharkey wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Another Sillyname
> <anothersname[at]googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Only 7 buttons when you have over 100 channels could take a while for
>> channel selection
>>
>
> For some of us, selecting a channel is a very rare event.
>
> Pretty much the only time I use LiveTV is when debugging some problem
> with a tuner.
>
>
> Eric
>
>
I am not using live TV neither.
That said, If mythtv works with 7 buttons, It does not mean that a myth
user should not use more buttons if available !

I just don't like the fact that sometime I cannot do something, because
I did not configure the appropriate button.
For a first time user, it is very hard to know what button to configure
and which one is not absolutely necessary and it is time consuming. I
does not give a good first impression.

Xavier

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gull at gull

Nov 6, 2009, 10:10 AM

Post #7 of 11 (192 views)
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Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

On Fri, November 6, 2009 9:43 am, xavier hervy wrote:
> Eric Sharkey wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Another Sillyname
>> <anothersname[at]googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Only 7 buttons when you have over 100 channels could take a while for
>>> channel selection
>>
>> For some of us, selecting a channel is a very rare event.
>>
>> Pretty much the only time I use LiveTV is when debugging some problem
>> with a tuner.
>>
> I am not using live TV neither.

I don't use LiveTV much either, but I *do* use the "jump X minutes"
functionality a lot, which requires the digit keys.

I'd say the biggest UI annoyance, when using a remote control, is
definitely the need for two menu buttons. It's not that my remotes lack
for buttons -- I'm using remotes intended for TV cards, so I usually use
something like the "full screen" button to pull up one of the menus -- but
it makes it easy to overlook options, it's non-intuitive to new users, and
I sometimes forget which menu a particular item I want is in.

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digitalaudiorock at gmail

Nov 6, 2009, 1:34 PM

Post #8 of 11 (177 views)
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Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Yeechang Lee <ylee[at]pobox.com> wrote:
> David Engel recently wrote:
>> With a limited number of keys on most remotes, you often want to
>> overload them for different contexts and Myth doesn't always make
>> that easy or possible currently.
>
> I suspect there needs to be a consensus on what comprises a minimally
> acceptable MythTV remote so that keybindings and on-screen prompts can
> be built around it.
>

If cost is the main issue when it comes to "minimal" remotes,
personally I've always been very happy with my Phillips Tivo, which
actually has quite a few buttons and can be had for like $12. I have
two of them laying around.

Tom
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jedi at mishnet

Nov 6, 2009, 1:42 PM

Post #9 of 11 (177 views)
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Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 04:34:47PM -0500, Tom Dexter wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Yeechang Lee <ylee[at]pobox.com> wrote:
> > David Engel recently wrote:
> >> With a limited number of keys on most remotes, you often want to
> >> overload them for different contexts and Myth doesn't always make
> >> that easy or possible currently.
> >
> > I suspect there needs to be a consensus on what comprises a minimally
> > acceptable MythTV remote so that keybindings and on-screen prompts can
> > be built around it.
> >
>
> If cost is the main issue when it comes to "minimal" remotes,
> personally I've always been very happy with my Phillips Tivo, which
> actually has quite a few buttons and can be had for like $12. I have
> two of them laying around.

I thought of assimilating my old Tivo remotes for use with MythTV
when I first started but it seemed it would be an expensive option. I
use Streamzap remotes instead. They aren't dirt cheap but they aren't
rediculous either and they do come with a reciever.
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khill at vnetwork

Nov 6, 2009, 1:48 PM

Post #10 of 11 (178 views)
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Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

JEDIDIAH wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 04:34:47PM -0500, Tom Dexter wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Yeechang Lee <ylee[at]pobox.com> wrote:

>> If cost is the main issue when it comes to "minimal" remotes,
>> personally I've always been very happy with my Phillips Tivo, which
>> actually has quite a few buttons and can be had for like $12. I have
>> two of them laying around.
>
> I thought of assimilating my old Tivo remotes for use with MythTV
> when I first started but it seemed it would be an expensive option. I
> use Streamzap remotes instead. They aren't dirt cheap but they aren't
> rediculous either and they do come with a reciever.

Ha!
I use my Tivo remotes (from 2 old directv tivos) with my Streamzap
receiver. Works great, except most of the writing on the buttons has
worn off over the years...

I really love being able to program the volume for my old Kenwood
receiver into the Tivo remote, seems to be missing on a lot of other
universal remotes.

-kevin

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ylee at pobox

Nov 6, 2009, 2:29 PM

Post #11 of 11 (166 views)
Permalink

Re: Minimal button requirement for remote controls? [In reply to]

Tom Dexter <digitalaudiorock[at]gmail.com> says:
> If cost is the main issue when it comes to "minimal" remotes,
> personally I've always been very happy with my Phillips Tivo, which
> actually has quite a few buttons and can be had for like $12. I
> have two of them laying around.

I was thinking more of the number of buttons than the cost, per se
(the two aren't necessarily synonymous; many $10 universal remotes
have way, way more buttons than anyone would need for MythTV), but
yes, the TiVo remote (which I happily used for the many years I used a
Series 1), which I know other readers use, might be as good as any for
a MythTV remote reference design. Looking at the second-generation
design (<URL:http://www.dvrlife.com/images/tivo-remote-control.gif>),
we have

* 0-9, Clear, Enter
* Play, Pause, FFwd, Rew, Rec, Slow
* Instant Replay, Advance
* Channel Up and Down
* Up/Down/Left/Right, Select
* Volume Up and Down, TV Power, Mute
* Live TV, Guide, PiP, Display, TV Input
* Thumbs Up and Down
* The TiVo button

Most of the mappings to MythTV keybindings are obvious. Advance and
Replay could be NEXTVIEW and PREVVIEW, or (given the directional pad)
the Thumbs Up/Down buttons might be used for that. Slow could be
ESCAPE. The TiVo button would, in my case, be the TV Recording
Playback jumppoint.

--
Frontend/backend: P4 3.0GHz, 1.5TB software RAID 5 array
Backend: Quad-core Xeon 1.6GHz, 6.6TB sw RAID 6
Video inputs: Four high-definition over FireWire/OTA
Accessories: 47" 1080p LCD, 5.1 digital, and MX-600
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